You you didn't mention it, and bi women often totally let it slip their minds they have another option: men. Biphilic, biphilic, men.

You're welcome, BI.
"Ooo, ooo, was it the line about pigs??"

("If you [do] eat [cock], and I [do] eat [cock], why don't we [on rare occasions] eat [cock] together, [but mostly stick with our girl parts]?" Like that?)
Oh God, here we go again. . . .
Dan, if Tim Minchin happened to be bi, polyamorous and was into you, would you have sex with him?
With him, yes; with his hair, no.
Dan, would you give the same answer, pronoun-switched of course, to a bi guy who would write the same letter?
@5, I'm sure he'd unclip and stow his hair away if you asked nicely and flexed a little.
@6, would a bi guy ever write the same letter? I don't seem to find or hear about gay men being threatened by bi men in the same way.
I couldn't give that same answer as the stats are flipped -- there are way more gay-identified men than there are bi-identified men.

But... I have given that same answer, on many occasions, to angry bi guys. Get lots of letters from bisexuals complaining about how terribly they're treated by gay men and lesbians—and straight folks—and they never, ever mention the possibility of dating other bisexuals. It seems so odd.

It's like bisexuals believe there's no such thing as (other) bisexuals.
As a bi woman, I can tell you that the gay women I've known have told me that the prevailing fear is that they'll fall in love and then the bi woman's "experimenting" will end and they'll go back to the easy life of men and legal marriage. Ironically enough, I am married to a man now, and I might have ended up with a woman if they hadn't run scared by my inability to hate dick.
Having had both the cock and the pussy in my lifetime and having chosen (yes, I said that) to stick to the pussy, I can say that lesbians cannot possibly understand how a woman could be attracted to both, when the one is so superior to the other. (I didnt write our rule book, I just read it and try to keep track)

So we think that bi girls are clearly too crazy for us. what with that "i like cock and pussy thing."

Hell, we lesbians will sleep with _straight_ girls before we sleep with bi girls -
1. the challenge is fun.
2. there is always the possibility we are making someone switcheroo. There are prizes for that.
3. You do know where you stand, competition-wise, with the straight girl. The bi girl has to be watched all the time, the lesbian and straight girl, only half the time.

(Of course, as Resident Lesbian Spokesperson who is also non-monogamous, I dont really think people need watching at all, unless you are into watching.)
Not all lesbians have a problem with bisexual women, trust me. But here's where I think a big part of the problem comes from for some: any bisexual woman can, if she falls for a guy (likely, since straight guys are >90% of population whereas gay/bi women and <10%), she will enjoy all the privileges of heterosexuality. Not her fault of course, but it can be hard for some lesbians not to be bitter about always tao fight for a fraction of the legal and social equality that a bisexual woman gets just by being with a man.

Perhaps gay men don't have a similar jealousy of bi men because men in general hold the highest ranks of privilege in this society already. Lesbians, not so much.
I had the same Minchin reaction to the letter. I also would have sex with him, but not his hair.

The eye makeup can stay.
Having just been emailed several times to ask why I chose to stick to the pussy, I say this:

The pussy is attached to a female brain.
The cock is attached to a male brain.

Genitals are not usually the problem, both are somewhat wrinkly and odd looking. it is brain / culture / and thought process of the male brain that tends to annoy me more than the female version of those things.

I describe it thusly: watching the sunset with your female lover and your male lover - you are thinking 'what a beautiful sunset.'
Female lover turns to you and says 'what a beautiful sunset'
Male lover turns to you and says 'do you think we have any adult soccer leagues near us?'
* Keep in mind, this is how I perceive the male brain got to this point:
"what a beautiful sunset. I love the colors, the orange and the red. I've seen that combination before, where was it? Oh, that soccer game the other day on tv. I like soccer. I wonder if there are any adult soccer leagues near us?"


How about this? Do what guys do -- LIE!

I mean, if you're out there looking for chicks...why do you have to ruin it and open your big mouth and say how you're "bi".

Just go into the lesbi bars and say "hey, I'm a great big lesbian, and I like chicks...nothing but chicks" and then buy everyone a round of 7&7.
The thing that bothers me is that bi women seem to walk around demanding that lesbians *want to sleep with them*. No one owes you that. Consider that not all lesbians are 100% against sex with bi women. If you concede that lesbians AS A BLOCK do not all conspire to keep bi women from getting gay laid, then maybe you can realize that those women get to decide what they are looking for in sex partners. There's no sex equivalent to equal opportunity hiring laws.

Maybe you can tell I'm a lesbian. But all I ever hear from bi women is this complaint. Fuck you. But not literally.
I would do Minchin *and* his hair at the first opportunity, and the second...
@14: As a guy, I constantly find myself traveling along similarly convoluted trains of thought.
@16 - many bi women are used to dealing with guys, who are mostly less discriminating when it comes to their sexual partners. Also, guys are generally willing to step up and do the seducing, once it's time for that. So bi women are startled to find (when they try to get women to seduce them) that it wasn't their amazing sexiness that made men fall all over them, it was the male testosterone levels.

You don't see anything flawed in your perception of masculinity?

You should replace, in what you have written, every instance of "male" with "black people," and "soccer" with "fried chicken and watermelon" and see if you can find anything others might find offensive.
Let's make Tim Minchin wear a bathing cap. An old, rubbery one with pink flower petals on it.
Or two of us can hold him down while one of us gives him a haircut
Lurleen @12, very nicely put indeed.
#14. I'm the opposite. I too could be happy with either cock or pussy, and have been. But I prefer the male brain to the female's, so I ended up committed to a man.

However, my partner and I keep our door open a small crack, and the only women I've ever been with are bi women (both before and after committing to him). And that's for the very reasons Dan stated. I don't go "trolling for pussy" among my lesbian friends and acquaintances. It's fucking rude. And I'm lucky enough to live in a city where there are many fun bisexual women who aren't looking for relationships and don't mind casual hookups. But I'm digressing...

The letter writer should take Dan's advice. Bisexual women are everywhere. The very week I came out as bi, I met others. I think that sometimes all it takes is being very straightforward about our orientations.
To build on what @10 said, for most gays and lesbians, it IS that fear that the gay side of your bi nature may be just a "phase".

For me, it was hard enough coming to terms and accepting myself as a gay male. I don't want to have to possibly compete with both men AND women for the affections of whomever I'm with. That's just too much.
#22. I don't know if that's really fair, Sargon. She's not saying she'd be gay if other lesbians hadn't shunned her. She's saying she could be a bi woman partnered to a lesbian now if lesbians had given her a chance. Which--if she ever says this in front of her husband--will make him feel like shit. ;-)
I don't want to have to possibly compete with both men AND women for the affections of whomever I'm with.

Do you really think that only having to compete with men for the affections of whomever your with will be oh so much better? Cheating is cheating. Jealousy is jealousy. You're going to feel insecure either way. Why not simply go after someone who won't make you compete?

This is a common mindset:

Lesbian dating a lesbian: She cheated on me with another woman. She's a cheater.

Lesbian dating a bi woman: She cheated on me with another man. She's a typical bisexual piece of shit.

It's a tired, old double standard, but it's not going to go away. It's what it is.
I accept as a straight man, when it comes to bi women there is no way i CAN compete with women for her fem-sexual fulfilment. This can lead to one of two types of thinking, broadly speaking: "I can't compete, so I choose not to play", or "I can't compete, but I accept that and game on!", and I choose the latter.
In short, you either let people be true to themselves in a relationship, or you try and change their basic nature, or you simply choose not to relate.
Adult fried chicken and watermelon leagues?
@29 for the win
Huh. I, for one, would have sex with Tim Minchin much more with the hair than without.
Part of the problem that bisexuals face is the lack of a bisexual community in a lot of areas, even ones that have a fairly visible gay community. I've been to straight bars and gay bars, but I haven't seen a lot of bi bars. And a lot of bi men and women do exactly what's expected of them, stick to straight relationships because it's easier, which doesn't make it easy for them to find each other.

Of course, there are some problems with those stats, Dan. You've got the number of women who identify as bisexual, but how many of them are OUT as bisexual? And HOW bisexual are they? Are they 50%/50% or are they really 90% straight and unlikely to date another girl? More to the point, how many of them identify as bisexual on a survey but round themselves up to lesbian among their friends, as you have so often noted that lesbians do?
It's about identity and it's exhausting. In some ways it might be easier if someone lived in the moment and called themselves a lesbian while dating a woman and straight while dating a man. Except part and parcel of getting together with same-sex partners is to share your coming out experience, the moment you knew, the persecution you've faced, etc.

And bi people have some of that, but not as much.

Maybe we should keep handy the sentence "I don't like labels" and make out with the asker anyway.
@31 - I think you expressed the bias perfectly: We're supposed to deny part of our sexuality because....just because you said so. How are bisexuals 'having it both ways' any more than you are when you go from one partner to the next due to some quality you prefer in the new partner?

And I'm with Dan - minus Tim's hair and I'm in.
Well at least this isn't outright biphobic. Some half-witted combination of apologism and "get over it" isn't a real improvement though.
@19, you bring up a good point RE males pursuing females... I think in my case, as a woman who wanted to date women (but had dated only men in the past), I didn't know how/was too shy to do my share of the pursuing. In comparison, guys just made it so easy... ultimately, my experiences with women were much more limited than I would have liked. I guess getting a woman to date you requires much more effort than getting a man!
@31: What, all of a sudden you speak for all the folks at the polar ends?
I'm a straight guy dating a bi girl. I frankly don't care if she wants to have a girlfriend; I consider the relationship she'd have with them a different sort of thing from the relationship she'd have with me, and hence nonconflicting. (It also hasn't hurt that I've gotten along well with the few women she's dated.)
@33: Exactly! There are no bi-bars, and while internet dating exists, many people still meet their partners in social situations. When a bisexual woman meets a woman who appears interested in her, or when a bisexual man meets a man who appears interested in him, I think an immediate quiz on their sexual orientation/identity is a little ridiculous and probably quite off-putting. I don't know any bisexuals who have a problem with gays or lesbians, except for the gays and lesbians SPECIFICALLY DISCRIMINATING AGAINST BISEXUALS.

I just don't think Dan would advise a racial or ethnic minority who was interested in more than one race to exclude members of one of the races they were interested in simply because some members of that race were bigoted. I highly doubt that bisexuals are against the idea of dating another bisexual (I've never met a bisexual person who felt that way), it's simply about who you happen to meet and be attracted to.
Lesbians hate penises the same way many people fear anal sex.

Your bisexuality reminds them of penises. Thus the Gold Star lesbian is the superlative anti penis.

and if it's not the penis, @10 said it best:

"As a bi woman, I can tell you that the gay women I've known have told me that the prevailing fear is that they'll fall in love and then the bi woman's "experimenting" will end and they'll go back to the easy life of men and legal marriage. "
I have some thoughts on the nature of bisexuality/societal construction of sexual identity.... and a bit of practical advice to the original poster. I don't blame Dan for not being able to provide practical advice, as he's had no experience as a bi woman and it's not like the life of the bi-woman is represented in media as anything other than the hetero male fantasy, engaging in MFF three-ways, but otherwise being faithful to her man. So, unless Dan's got lots of bi female friends who've figured out how to navigate the quicksand, he's really got no basis to say any more than he did. So those posters who wanted more should step back and ask what more he could have said or done...

(1) As a bisexual, mixed-race woman, I find the idea that I'm not authentic just as I am or that I have to "choose a team" wrt to either my race or my sexuality to MAKE OTHER PEOPLE MORE COMFORTABLE is really distressing. But the reality is, when people find out I'm mixed race (I can pass for white), their reaction is either to say that the non-white is what matters and I should HATE my white side or to "round me up to white" since I pass for white and "cannot possibly understand" what it is to be minority. (In spite of the fact that I have experienced direct governmental oppression because of it).

Anyone who feels the need to put others into tight cognitive boxes in order to make themselves feel better is not worth a friendship or long term sexual relationship (unless you like being really degraded, if so, then go for it). True partners view you as the person you are and learn how to deal with you as an individual person, instead of needing to slap a label on you so that they know how to proceed. (That's ignorant and immature, irrespective of whether it comes from a conservative homophobe or from a cultured lesbian). Look at the person's behavior, do not presume they will be more enlightened or more able to deal with your lack of definition because they choose to put X, Y, or Z label on themselves.

Most of us do a really piss poor job of seeing other human beings as the really wonderful, idiosyncratic individuals that they are....we are taught at a young age to label and to proceed accordingly.

You cannot change this about the world. You can only be aware of it and choose to interact with people based upon their ability to transcend such limitations.

(2) If you are not in a LTR with someone, why are you even getting into discussions about the fact that you are bisexual? If you are going to lesbian bars looking for a quickie or a short term thing, you don't need to say anything about your sexual preferences other than what comes up when sex is imminent and the person needs to know if you are vanilla or into being tied down and ravaged. In these situations, you have no obligation to tell the other person you also fancy boys.

(3) If you do find a woman that you want to have a sustained relationship with, you need to be honest that you have dated men and find men attractive, but that you are young, and you are still "figuring it all out". Make sure you tell her, in no uncertain terms, that you really, truly want to have a relationship with her that could lead to living together/marriage/children. if none of those things are in the cards, DO NOT have a committed, monogamous relationship with the person. This solves the problem of you having to tell them everything about your sexuality.

If you really are committed to a relationship with a woman and that woman is worth your time, you can work through the "does she really like women"/"will she go back to men" issues over time. In this respect, this is no different than the situation many young men face when they decide to settle down after years of playing around. So, what you are facing may be of a different flavor than lesbians or straight people face, but it is essentially just another of those things that couples have to negotiate when getting together.

(3) Misandrist, dogmatic lesbians (there aren't as many out there as people think, but they do exist) may make great one night stands, but they are lousy long-term lovers. (My sister has dated a few, before she found a nice woman to settle down with and raise their children together). Ditto for straight men who think that dating a bisexual woman means instant MFF threesomes (but no MMF ones). If you get a whif of either, do not proceed to get in deeper with the person.

(4) Find an older bisexual woman TO WHOM YOU ARE NOT ATTRACTED with whom you can discuss your feelings. If you cannot find an older bisexual woman, there are some older lesbians out there who would be willing to talk to you about your sexuality. But you cannot hash out your sexuality with people who are disposable sex partners. If you are discussing your attraction to men with other women during a one-night stand or on a first date, just stop it.

(5) A lot of people, both straight and gay, think that either sexuality is a choice (so you should be able to repress anything they find objectionable) or is hard-wired at birth and does not change.

I have known some people for whom the hard-wiring is true. I have been in a serious relationship with a woman whom only ever liked women and had never, ever had an ounce of interest in men. I have been with men who were as close to 100% straight as could be.

But, I've also known a lot of people who didn't fit into boxes and people for whom their sexuality is in flux over time. This is fine if you are 20, not cool if you are 50. So figure it out while you are young. Even if the answer is "I don't know, so you can't rely on me."

If you aren't old enough to be 100% sure you won't change, then please, please do not get into a LTR with anyone. Don't use other people as vehicles for discovering your sexuality unless they are fully aware and willing partners! Bisexuals have a special obligation on this that is above and beyond the call of those who are either 100% gay or 100% straight.

(6) Bisexuals exist but there are those who are really gay and just won't admit it and those who are really straight and don't want to admit that because it means they aren't all cool and hip. (Dan had a letter writer like that last week). So those who take an either-or position on this really are just trying to make themselves feel better by making their world easier to handle.

How do you know if someone is really bi vs. someone who is in denial? (Be they gay or straight).

First, do they give oral TO BOTH SEXES? I've known a few "bi" men/women who fucked the other gender, but didn't like the smell/taste of the other gender. Over time, they picked a side. So if they won't go down, that's a huge red flag.

Second, when they have casual sex, is it mostly one-sided? If so, is it opportunity (i.e., easier to have anonymous gay sex in an age of grindr than anonymous het sex) or what they prefer?

Third, with which gender have they had the most relationships? The longest relationships? The most successful ones?

Finally, whom do they fantasize about? If a man says he's bi, but all he has is gay porn, then I gotta wonder.

Of course, porn viewing isn't a perfect match... I like sex with other women and with men...but I only ever watch gay male porn, particularly gay male fuck videos. So I'm not sure what my fantasies say about my sexuality. (Most educated female friends I have who are under 40 prefer gay male fuck videos to anything....because it's better looking men and raw male sexuality without the politics of the heteronormative patriarchy...and the men look like they are enjoying it.)

You do have to get beyond porn viewing and into actual fantasies...particularly with women who don't watch porn, but do fantasize...
The OP also needs to google "bisexual woman support group" and her hometown/state/region. For example:

If there is no group in your area, start one. But do make it a "no men allowed" at the meetings or you will find a lot of creepy dudes hanging about, pretending to be supportive...when they are just looking for (1) an easy lay or (2) a MFF threesome.

Biphobic Lesbian Cockphobes


~.65 of us all

~2 Million Biphobic Lesbian Cockphobes in the U.S. alone

or roughly 40 Million Biphobic Lesbian Cockphobes worldwide

Fuck dude this should be on the census.
I'm a gay man that has 2 (count 'em) sisters who've been back/forth across the fence over 8 times between them. Does it piss me off- yes.
Why? Because the family gets used to them being lesbians, then they jump to the cock. This lends credence to the homophobe family members' notion that it is indeed a choice. Makes it that much harder for me as a gay male, who, while I did pussy for 13 years and sired 2 sons, GLADLY gave it up once I finally came out.
I instinctively do not trust the bisexual- they can have it both ways, and often do.
Extremely rare to find a guy who goes back to pussy once he's had the cock. Not so with females.
@ 38

Kudos to you supporting the bi side of your gf, but then again, 'supporting' wouldn't be the right word, would it? You 'don't care', and that kind of indifference – or even ignorance? - is the fucking core of the problem. In all your 'supportiveness' you still put your heterosexual relationship above whatever girlfriend she could have, which leads me to think that you not caring is another way of saying that you don't take her bi side as seriously as her 'straight' side – her gfs couldn't possibly pose a threat to you, right?

I know my comment might be a classic example of despising people who wanna have it both ways, but your comment is also the classic example why bi women get that kind of hate: stay with a guy and belong to the 'straight' team, but still have your gfs on the side.

I'm wondering whether it'd still be so nonconflicting when she leaves you for one.
I really, really don't get the rampant generalization of all bisexuals. Or the fear.

I realized I was bi 10 years ago; started my first relationship (with another woman) 3 years ago; am happily monogamous today whilst also voicing attractions to both men and women. I'd have been quite sad if my lesbian girlfriend hadn't taken a second look at me because of straight privilege jealousy or worries that I'm a big ol' Bi McCheaterface.
I really, really don't get the rampant generalization of all bisexuals. Or the fear.

I realized I was bi 10 years ago; started my first relationship (with another woman) 3 years ago; am happily monogamous today whilst also voicing attractions to both men and women. I'd have been quite sad if my lesbian girlfriend hadn't taken a second look at me because of straight privilege jealousy or worries that I'm a big ol' Bi McCheaterface.
The problem here is two-fold:

1) Although we generally don't admit it publicly, most gays and lesbians have a hard time accepting bisexuality as anything other than a "transition state." Why? Because when we came out, we used the bisexual label as an escape route back into the closet... a safety net, so to speak. Meeting an actual, grown-up bisexual reminds of of our adolescent flirtations and sexual confusion. We find them hard to trust because we were hard to trust when using the label ourselves all those years ago.

2) In theory, the great thing about bisexuality is that it doubles the size of one's dating pool (to paraphrase Woody Allen). And that's all it should do, but to a lot of bisexuals (not to all, but to quite a few), it's used as an excuse to cheat on one's spouse or partner with a member of the other gender. Maybe this isn't a fair characterization, but virtually every bisexual I know seems to have multiple partners, and they are almost always in "committed relationships." Sure, lots of people cheat, but bisexuals always seem to share the same reason for cheating: "I'm bisexual, and I like cock/pussy, so I do what I have to do." YadaYada.

So as a rule, I don't look to bisexuals as potential mates or partners. Yes, gay men cheat (often), but none of us ever use "I am a gay man" as an excuse/reason for the cheating. Maybe the problem is that the bisexual community needs some better PR, but generally speaking, bisexuality should not be used as a license to cheat, but far too many seem to think that this is exactly what they have the right to do.
Yes, gay men cheat (often), but none of us ever use "I am a gay man" as an excuse/reason for the cheating.

What excuse do you use?

For that matter though, I think your definition of "cheating" is different than mine. I've never cheated on my partner.
@49 Do you not read Dan Savage's column? He uses the explanation all the time that gay men have more open/poly/multipartner relationships because they are men. Men who dont have women around to enforce monogamy.

i know lots of bisexuals, self included, who are serial monogamists like most people.
also, i hate thing about bisexuals having twice the dating pool. We dont. just as gay straight people have "types" and dont find barbara bush, sarah palin tina fey and brittany spears all equally attractive just because the like women or colin farrel, denzel washington and rick gervais all compelling just becasue they are into men, bisexual people also have types. In my case a fairly uncommon type in terms of both physical attraction and social/political compatibility. Bi people can have small dating pools!
@14: I'm interested in this stereotype that female thinking is simple, direct, and straightforward, whereas male thinking is convoluted and jumps around a lot. I've never heard it before (though I have heard the exact opposite).

@46: Because of cultural ideas about guys competing with other guys, most guys would be feel less threatened about losing their GF to a girl than to a guy. And it's kinda hard to feel sad or jealous about your girlfriend leaving you for a girl while you're imagining hot lesbian sex.
Tim's having a bad-hair life.
@ BI. None of us are required to tell potential lovers about details of our sex lives. I know I don't. So it is perfectly okay not tell a lesbian that you also sleep with men. No harm no foul.
#51. Thank you, thank you!

I wonder if the baggage that #49 mentions that gays and lesbians carry around is true (his first example/rationalization, I mean). If so, then Dan's advice is even better than I originally thought. Who needs that?

And Dan's advice is good. I think that, because he always states it in such a supercilious, snide way, people tend to blow it off. Hell, I don't even think that Dan really thinks it's good advice. I think he's having fun poking at the "idle-on-angry" bi girl. But it is good advice, nonetheless.

At the same time, when it comes to civil rights, gays and lesbians need all the help they can get (both in the voting booth and with activist work), and when I see incredibly short-sighted, insulting statements like #49's, I often wonder if--even while he's saying that--he still expects bisexuals to work for civil rights, march in protests, and vote the "right" way.
I think that Heather at #55 might have just won the thread.
45 -
Oh you poor little oppressed gay man! Girls doing whatever they want! It must be SO maddening!

Bi people are not gay, obviously. Why should they act gay just to make you feel better?!
I find it hysterical that a gay man with two kids finds the fluidity of female sexuality so off-putting.
@ 50: I don't use any excuse. I'm not in a relationship, so I'm not actually cheating on anyone. Men have, however, cheated on me in the past. My seven year relationship ended in 1998 when I caught my then partner in bed with another guy. His excuse? "I have OCD... I can't help it." I dumped him immediately, but I did give him point for creativity.

@ 56: I may be generalizing to make a point about the contents of the letter, but I fail to see how my comments could be construed as "short-sighted" and "insulting".
#60, of course you fail to see it. But then, you also think it's reasonable to generalize to "make a point" (or attempt to).
@59 jade, if you were referring to OutInBumF (apologies if you were not), his comment makes perfect sense to me. I think there are a lot of gay men who, for many different reasons, try to fit it, marry a woman, have children, only to discover later that they just can't make it work. It's not a matter of liking men and women equally, as it may be with someone who is bi. I can also see that in his case, having sisters who can just as easily be with men as with women, it would supply lots of fuel to the haters who say to him "if you just want it enough, you can change how you feel." Surely, you can see his point?
Really. Just keep your mouth shut about liking cock now and then. If you can't or won't, date other bi's. If I were a bi female, I'd look for couples who want a third. The idea that you can have both is exciting.
Canuck, yes I can see the point he's made. I simply think it's bigoted, hypocritical crap.

Bisexuals are not responsible to what haters do or think or say. Just like gay men are not responsible for the "gays are promiscuous, AIDS-ridden disease-spreaders" statements that haters make about them. The end.

Yes, many, many gays and lesbians marry before they decide to come out. And I know it's not a matter of them being bi. I'm simply beyond tired of the many thousands of gays and lesbians with kids from previously straight marriages making judgements about how other people live their lives.

From what he said in his post, it seems that OutInBunF lied for over a decade to his wife (was he faithful to her?). I know he probably struggled, bigoted society, heart-wrenching decision, etc. I understand all of that. My bitchy comment aside, I do understand that. How is that more respectable, or understandable, or . . . honorable than those bisexuals who are always honest about who they are (no matter the judgment they get from both straights AND gays)?

I just find it extremely hypocritical (and really, really shitty) for someone to admit that he created an entire family under false pretenses and then turn around and say he finds bisexuals untrustworthy. I get tired of gays and lesbians applying their own baggage onto us. Oh, and then expecting us to fight for their civil rights.

Anyway, I'm sounding angry here and I'm not. And I think I've said enough, so I'll bow out of this conversation. For me, at least, it's not going anywhere worthwhile.
@46: You're one of those smarmy assholes who can't differentiate between "different" and "inferior".
Well yes, Jade, generalizing to make a point is a fairly reasonable thing to do.
To reiterate, I was merely offering a theory as to why the women in question might be put off by her professed bisexuality. Maybe my theory doesn't apply to you, but based on her letter, it might apply to the individuals she's been meeting.

So chill out.
Monogamous gays find bisexuals scary because it means it is BY DEFINITION impossible for one person to satisfy their sexual desires. (Yes, obviously nobody satisfies anybody 100%, but with bi's it's just Very Obvious that it's only maximum 50% [or 36.5%, 59.3%, whatever your kinsey is]).

Men like bisexual women (and vice versa) because they can have all the status & security benefits of a straight marriage (you dont need to use academic jargon here) while still fooling around. Moreover there are vastly more straight men to choose from than there are lesbians. Gay women, who are socially at a double-disadvantage, do not trust bi women for these reasons and the reason above.

In sum, they are calculating that it's much more likely for a relationship of lesbian/bi to break up compared to lesbian/lesbian, so why bother starting it. In some case it may be worth it but hey.

Disclaimer, I am a straight man, and I just made all this up.
66, maybe this will illustrate the point more clearly...

"...Maybe this isn't a fair characterization, but virtually every Negro I know seems to have multiple partners, and they are almost always in "committed relationships." Sure, lots of people cheat, but Negros always seem to share the same reason for cheating: "I'm black, and I like cock/pussy, so I do what I have to do."..."

Depending on the point you're trying to make, generalising can be an incredibly "short-sighted" and "insulting" way to make it.
As a bi woman, I'd like to say that I am perfectly capable of being monogomous.... and its true, I've never cheated... and yet, if I admit that monogomous is not my favorite state of being, will it just be attributed to the fact that I'm bi?
Yeah, date bi' chicks, for serious. They can relate to your experience. I know mine can.
@ 68: Bwhahahahaha. Nice try.
All this talk of cheating is only relevant to people with bourgeois ideas about sexual ownership. If you create that sandbox for yourself you deserve all the strife that comes along with disappointment.

Moving on, as a gay guy I discriminate against bisexual women because I have met too many of them who want me to fuck their boyfriends...(let me finish) with them! I'm like look bi-lady all power to you and I'll totally fuck your dude, but you and your vagina gotta get up on out of here.

I like the skepticism in Dan's response, personally. I know those people. There's a super hot guy I went to college with who's all socialist and likes to talk at length about how queer he is, and how not in a box he is, et al. I've been waiting 7 years for him to put his damn money where is mouth is. But he just dates one stupid, codependent 118 lb nit wit after another.
71: Yeah, I guess you're just too fucking stupid to get it.
#45, women DO have more choice in the matter of our sexual preferences than men do. Get over it!
Women seem to care a lot more about what's going on in one's head as opposed to whether one is enjoying the situation, attracted, etc.
@68: That would be a good analogy if any significant number of black people actually used that as an excuse. I've never seen that, so it doesn't work.

Of course, we're talking two separate things here. Lesbians have good practical reasons for being skittish around bi women, and we could go around in circles for ages discussing exactly why that is. #42/ABW did a much better job cutting through the bullshit and giving useful tips for bi girls on the ground. 'tis a much better approach than being generally and uncritically bi-supportive. (Which, in fact, is more part of the problem than part of the solution.)
@42 (ABW), first of all, if you’re going to post insightful essays on Slog, please register so everyone gets to see them.

Second, you wrote: >>> I've also known a lot of people who didn't fit into boxes and people for whom their sexuality is in flux over time. This is fine if you are 20, not cool if you are 50. So figure it out while you are young. Even if the answer is "I don't know, so you can't rely on me." If you aren't old enough to be 100% sure you won't change, then please, please do not get into a LTR with anyone. Don't use other people as vehicles for discovering your sexuality unless they are fully aware and willing partners!>>>

Your advice is good for someone who wants to avoid causing pain at all cost. But it’s a tad unrealistic to expect people to avoid LTRs until they’re positive they will never ever change again. Change happens, sometimes people get hurt, that’s sad, that’s life, oh well.
@60 (cxg), did you really end a relationship of seven years when you caught him cheating? Was that the only reason for dumping him, or just the proximate cause? And do you now think that you could have worked through the infidelity? I thought gay guys were more understanding of each other’s mistakes...
@78: Yeah, pretty much. He'd been cheating with this guy and a few others for several months. I kind of suspected it but had no real proof until I literally walked in on them (yep, just like in the movies).
I could have worked thru it, but in this case it would not have been beneficial. We had talked about opening up the relationship as a way of "spicing things up" but he had always indicated that he preferred monogamy and would be "crazy with jealousy" if I were to fool around, etc... All of this was cool with me, but the sheer hypocrisy was too much to handle. He was completely comfortable being "open" as long as the only one being open was him. ;-)
I really have to chime in on this - my girlfriend and I (I'm male) are both bisexual and are in a wonderful committed relationship. We are also monogamous and we trust one another. It's a great feeling to know that I'm with someone who gets me, who won't try to cram me into a box, and most importantly, WILL NOT JUDGE ME. My last girlfriend had a huge issue with my sexuality (even though I was absolutely loyal), and it was a huge burden for both of us.
@78 Gays and bis are very forgiving. That's why there has never been a broken-hearted gay man. Ever.
My wife is bi. She was my first g/f so I guess I didn't know that as a gay woman I was supposed to feel threatened by her love of the cock. I really don't understand lesbians who don't like bi-women. Sure my wife and I could never have a ffm threesome (male cum makes me vomit. We can't even watch the end of porn together) but that's just one of the things we had to get over. Silly insecure lesbians are missing out on some fun freaky sex.
revenge yourself -> avenge yourself
@79, thanks for explaining. The confirmation that he was really fucking you over, after you'd tried to fix things whichever way he wanted (open or closed), that must have sucked. Sorry you had to go through that.
@ 84, I'm actually cool with "cheating" as long as everyone involved is on board and all the appropriate permisssion slips have been signed and dated. It's the double-standard, do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do crowd that really pisses me off.
In my experience this is too often the case, Dan summarized perfectly:

"Unless, of course, you're one of those bisexuals who enjoys complaining about the women who won't fuck her more than she enjoys fucking with the women who will."

This is a big reason why lesbians have so many issues with bisexuals. A few bad apples ruined your sexual orientation's good name (har har) and that probably sucks for you. Go fuck other bisexuals, problem solved- there certainly is no shortage.

Dear befuddled individual.
I am a bisexual woman who GETS why some Lesbians would not want to go near Bisexual women with a ten foot pole, and I respect it.

And here's why.

In this society, men hold a lot of power, cultural, political, financial. And I believe that there are a lot of unidentified Bisexual women out there who are unidentified because they're hiding out in hetero relationships.

Why are they unidentified? because they're suckers for male power and have never gotten around to dating women because there's always been an abundance of men to compete with the relatively small numbers of women.

Women who aren't loyal to women exclusively are susceptible to being swayed over to the male side because of social conditioning, female passivity and other lame arsed reasons that cause hetero and Bi women to choose men.

When men are socialised to make the first move, and women are socialised to be lame arsed passive wallflowers who wait to be asked out by people with appropriately deep and authoritative voices, such as men, and when there are more hetero men out there looking for lame arsed wallflowers to pick, the Lesbian women feel outnumbered like they can't win.

It's one thing to be a woman and have a woman reject you for another woman. You can look inward and try to be a better woman. But when a woman chooses a man over you, you feel helpless.

I so don't blame them.

Hell, I'm wary of Bisexual women too and I am one.
First of all, just because they don't want to fuck you doesn't mean they "hate" bisexuals. I think Dan and Terry are fine as hell but I wouldn't have a three-way with them because they lack vaginas, that doesn't make me a homophobe.

It's a simple matter of sexual compatibility for this lesbian. Example: I'm not into butt stuff at all, although I don't judge others who do it. I meet a great woman and find out she's way into anal. Not only is she into it, she's loves it just as equally as vaginal sex, she could go with either one. There's no way I'd date that woman because not only am I not into it, I think it's really gross for me personally. Just like I wouldn't want someone to date me if they were completely disgusted with a large part of my sexual identity.

Change up "butt sex" for "sex with men" and voila = a perfectly logical reason why I don't date bisexuals. As #16 pointed out, I don't owe it to anyone to date them. You can't force yourself to be attracted to someone when you're not. I think my girlfriend is insanely attractive but if she came home with implants, that'd be an immediate boner-killer and every time I looked at her and tried to focus on her nice ass, I'd just go right to those rock hard giant fake boobs and lose my attraction.

Look at #82's comment, lesbian married to bi wife, she's can't even watch a full porn because "male cum makes [her] vomit." She's basically saying that her wife's sexual interests are revolting. Why would you want to marry someone who thinks that something you enthusiastically put in your mouth during sex is disgusting?
I went on a few dates with a bi man. We fucked once. It was okay and I could have seen it lasting, except his kissing style sucked. So my advice to you is: don't suck at kissing and maybe your prospects could increase!

Or just keep your mouth shut about the bisexuality when you're in the "getting to know you" phase. Nobody asks whether you're bi or a lesbian. They just take it for granted that you like pussy when you start hitting on them. Anything beyond that is voluntary disclosure of information, which can wait until after you declare yourselves a couple.
@42 - Thanks for the post. It was illuminating.

I have no point with what i'm about to say...I just don't say it to the people in my life and it feels good to get it out there:

I like butt/gay sex. I like pegging and i've had sex with a guy and a tranny and liked that too. I don't think i'm gay or possibly even bi. I tried to kiss a guy and it grossed me out. It just didn't feel right and made me a little nauseated. I do, however, like watching gay porn, but only if it involves anal sex. Again watching two guys kiss or go down on each other kinda squiks me out. I'll scan ahead to the fucking parts which i enjoy. I also really enjoy pegging videos.

I identify as a straight male and my friends are straight males. I really don't think they would react well if they knew what i was into. I also don't see why they need to know as they aren't involved in my sex-life. My gf knows i like pegging, and she will do it for my benefit but she isn't really into it, so i don't think she would react well if i told her that i have had and enjoyed sex with a man (and a tranny).

I posted this because it helps me process things "saying it" to somebody else...Thanks for indulging me.
@90: Dude, you're kinda bi. I'd put you as a 1 on the Kinsey scale, but a guy who likes girls, but also likes guys (if only from the waist down), is bisexual by most definitions.
Hey flounder! I love writing stuff out like you did, it definitely helps to get it on paper, so to speak, in my opinion. Michael Chabon wrote about his experiences with men, and he identifies as straight--I think it's really refreshing when men aren't hung up on *not* doing something they want to simply because it might interfere with some proscribed identity. One of my favourites from the Savage Love archives is this one, that begins about 1/2 way down, at "I'm a 100%..."…
There are plenty of women out there who love watching gay porn, and if they like watching it, they might be into watching you do it as well...keep your options open, you might as well try to find someone who thinks what you're into is hot, I'm sure they're out there.
@91: Good example of the problems with the Kinsey scale, which doesn't separate sexual and romantic attraction, let alone gender vs. sex vs. genitalia.
@90 - I'm that way too, thanks for posting!
@91 I'd have no problem with somebody else labeling me as bi. I just can't accept the label myself because i never see a guy and think "man that guy guy is hot i'd sure like to make out with him". I might be a bit short-sighted but i do define my sexuality by the individuals that i'm attracted to and not the sex acts i enjoy.

@92 The vertebrae quote from that link killed me. It took me a long time (i'm in my early 30s now) to be able to admit to myself what i like. I'm just now getting to the point where i can admit it to other people and this anonymous posting really helps with getting to the point where i can admit it without shame.

@93 Very true

@94 good to know there are other people out there like me. It's not easy to come to terms with who you are when you don't see other people that are like you. I know being gay is tough because you are gay all the time and there is a lot of discrimination, but at least there are sanctuaries. When you are attracted to women but enjoy sex that most people perceive as "gay" it can be difficult to embrace it when you have never met another person that likes what you like. I assume the same is true for people with non-vanilla fetishes.

Flounder, if you have the Savage Love app, you can search the archives by search term, which you can't do on the website. Dan's given a lot of great advice to people like you over the years who are wondering how to talk about what they're into, and how to find like-minded people. (Or, you can painstakingly read through 10 years of columns like I did last summer!) Keep posting, would love to hear about your journey!
They really need to come out with an android app
@95: Fair enough. So you're romantically hetero, sexually mostly hetero with a dash of bi.
I can live with that
@98 Sounds like something I'd like in my coffee, "Yes, chocolate sprinkles and a dash of bi, but hold the whipped cream, a girl has to watch her figure, you know."

Glad I helped in any way.

Your comments on your porn viewing made me think:

I wonder if you would still react the same way to porn if presented with equally good quality gay male fuck videos, pegging, or straight, rough het fucking that wasn't "all about the man's cock" (and focused on how women liked to be fucked). Maybe, maybe not. Have you ever watched good quality lesbian porn where women are fucking women and it's clear they both know what they are doing? (i.e., the only fucking scenario you left out that wasn't a penis in a vagina).

I don't know if you remember that bullshit study a while back about gay/bi/straight men and their arousal to porn. The bi men were allegedly more around by the gay male porn than porn with women.

I had a few thoughts on this: (1) I know a lot of hetero women who are more aroused by gay male porn because of it's quality but have 0 interest in having sex with a gay man AND a lot of straight men who watch things in porn that they wouldn't do in real life and would turn them off in real life. In other words:, arousal to porn does not always equal one's desire in the real world (shocking concept to some). (2) Were the participants in the types of porn equally appealing? Was the type of activity equally appealing? A better study would have been to ask the bi men what they liked to do in real life/what types of men and women they liked/ and then shown them porn reasonably tailored to that. After all, I know men who are pretty straight who would rather see a naked picture of Dan than one of Rosanne Barr. (3) Why weren't they showing all three groups bisexual porn including MMF and MFF or orgies or whatever to see if that is equally arousing? (4) Watching porn v. watching people in a sex act live v. engaging in it yourself are very, very different things.

For me, I can say that my porn preferences do NOT match up with what I have experienced directly or my voyeuristic turn ons. When I've been in certain countries in Europe in which people have sex in public parks and I've run across people who are attractive, I am equally turned on by watching straight couples as I am two (or more) men. I've never seen two women have at in public, so can't say if I'd be on the same page, but I'm guessing I would.

@97: Re the Android App, they have. I've got it on my HTC phone.

And re the rest of your posts, good on you. It can be very tough to be open about expressing your sexual desires when they fall outside that which is considered acceptable for your orientation.

I've never understood the need we have to label each other in that way.

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