Posts like these are wonderful (fuel for those of us who have to argue with the anti-gay-marriage crowd), but it reminds me how little those people care about logic or human freedom. you knock down one argument, they have another: it all boils down to, "I think gay people are icky and so I don't want them to get married cause it's gross." When people realize that they are perfectly entitled to find gay people (or Jews, women, blacks, whoever) icky but are not allowed to deny them rights on the basis of that ickiness, we will have come a long way.
Do you think it would be fair to say that the main proponents of the anti-gay marriage coalition don't actually know any openly gay people? Because while I'm sure there are plenty of gay assholes out there, the people whom I've met/known over the years who were the most appalling/worst parents were straight. This ties in with your post from yesterday, that knowing/hanging out with/being friends with someone who is gay probably makes you less likely to want to deny gays in general their basic rights.
Now see, when I read something like that, gus, I think "why doesn't my writing sound like his?" When I read back over various snarky Letters to Editors of mine, they sound like they were written by a somewhat precocious third grader.
Every time I get into an argument with someone who is against gay marriage, they always bring up the same things: need a mom and dad, the bible, they have the right to marry opposite sex, etc., etc., etc.... all the usual ones. I shoot them all down, because they're all simple to shoot down, and eventually the person comes full circle and starts repeating the arguments that have already been discredited, or they'll just say, "well, that's just the way I feel about it and that's it."
There's no use bringing up facts or reason or logic. They know what they know and that's all they care about.
Canuck, I'm the same. Sometimes I think if I wrote for pay I'd get better at it, but I rather suspect I'd only choke and pander if that were the case...
We have arguments like this one. Y'know, fact and logic based arguments. That are persuasive to functioning minds.
Unfortunately they other side is as flabbergasted as we are when we can't see the bloody obvious: God ordained marriage to be between one man and one woman. It is axiomatic, self-evident, not requiring proof.
And thanks to abysmal civics education, it counts for nothing that their Nobodaddy god is irrelevent in realms of civil law.
I have gay friends, but that doesn't mean I want to fight for the rights for gays to marry. Before you jump down my throat, my values also mean that I will never/could never support or actively work with anybody who is trying to deny gay couples that right. While personally I am not for it, politically I would not vote against it. And I believe that that's fair. While I believe that two men, or two women can make wonderful parents to a child, I do always wonder about that child. Does the son/daughter of two men ever want a female role model or guide, in absence of an actual mother? This may make me sound bigoted but because I can actually understand marriage in the traditional sense I can stand behind it. But the structure and standard of gay marriage I've seen exemplified on this website is very confusing for me and often contains many contradictions. But like that saying goes, if you don't want gay marriage then don't have one. So I for one will not have, but I won't attack anybody else who does. They can be effective parents, but you have to admit that something is missing. If you want to change the traditional structure of marriage don't be surprised when people are against it. Don't be surprised by the backlash. Expect humanity and respect even from those with dissenting views, but don't expect us to turn around our opinions and long held values to accommodate you.
Dissent, isn't there something missing in any couple? My parents couldn't guide me in surviving a north American high school (they were 1st generation immigrants), other parents can't guide their children in forming and sustaining long-term loving relationships (even some with parents still together), still others can't guide their children in maintaining stable careers. Straight parents can't guide their kids with coming out.
Perhaps that's why the studies show that kids who end up the best off are raised in homes where they has lots of access to multiple loving adults (aunts, uncles, friends).
It always comes down to "The children". But what % of gay couples have or want children? I certainly have no plans to adopt, so by their logic, I should be able to get married.
Aww, Canuck! Your writing is very thoughtful and eloquent.
I should think a 3rd-grade writing level would work best in letters to the editor. Nobody in my hick town in E WA could read anything written at an 8th-grade level anyway.
Hmm, you seem to be under the impression that lots of people in this country don't want to ban poor marriage, or more specifically poor parenting. They do; the analogy isn't a hypothetical, which unfortunately means it fails as a reductio ad absurdum argument.
There's no use bringing up facts or reason or logic. They know what they know and that's all they care about.
Unfortunately they other side is as flabbergasted as we are when we can't see the bloody obvious: God ordained marriage to be between one man and one woman. It is axiomatic, self-evident, not requiring proof.
And thanks to abysmal civics education, it counts for nothing that their Nobodaddy god is irrelevent in realms of civil law.
We just have to wait until enough of them die.
Perhaps that's why the studies show that kids who end up the best off are raised in homes where they has lots of access to multiple loving adults (aunts, uncles, friends).
I should think a 3rd-grade writing level would work best in letters to the editor. Nobody in my hick town in E WA could read anything written at an 8th-grade level anyway.
For example:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?…
http://www.halfsigma.com/2009/02/why-we-…
http://www.law.indiana.edu/ilj/volumes/v…
etc.
I don't want to go all Godwin here, but has nobody learned anything?