Blogs Feb 11, 2011 at 3:53 pm


Could someone post an example of Dan expressing a clear "hatred for fatties"?
I actually think Savage's response is classy. He's letting his record speak for itself, and not starting another dozen threads where commentors can go nuts taking his side and rubbing it in Lindy's face.
Fat or not, who shames their boss in front of thousands of his readers and fans and gets away with it? Wow
See why I said Dan should now shut up about fat?

Lindy provided several links (Click on Lindy's links people! I can see a lot of you didn't read them). Links that showed Dan Savage mocking and shaming fat people. And how does he respond? With cherry picked links to some of the times when he talked about fat people without being a dick about it. Or as much of a dick.

As if showing that he is not always a dick to fat people refutes the accusation that he is a dick to fat people. Like saying that since the Mormon church doesn't only oppose the equal rights for gays (they find time to oppose other people's rights too), we can ignore that they do oppose equal rights. Or if we dig up some quotes of the Moromon leadership sometimes saying some non-hurtful things about gays, that makes up for their campaign for discrimination.

The problem is Savage doesn't really grasp what anecdotal evidence means; more technically, he reasons inductively when it suits his purpose, but conveniently shifts gears to deductive logic if that serves him. With the pit pull anecdotes and the youth pastor watch and the every child deserves a mother and father anecdotes, you kind of let it slide. It's amusing and maybe for a good cause. But you see what it comes to when you make your living on faulty logic? It comes around to bite you in the ass.

And turning off comments? Lame.

Concede, and quit while you're behind, Dan. Gracefully change the subject to Rick Santorum or the It Gets Better Project, or anything, but its time for you to move on. No need for theatrics or groveling. Just quit it.

Yes, Dan can be a little bit of an asshole, but he's _our_ asshole and his edginess contributes to what makes him such an effective (i.e., not boring) advocate for so many of the causes the commenters on SLOG hold near and dear.

Also, most of the commenters on SLOG are anonymous, or like to pretend they are. Myself included. That's cool. But Dan is not anonymous. You know his name, and his husband's and his son's. You know where he works. He is a public figure, who appears regularly at venues around the country, without security, so that you can go up and spit in his face, or shoot him, if you are so inclined. And, he regularly and unanonymously ridicules, slams, insults and otherwise calls out some of the nastiest and vilest and potentially violent members of American society. And he does it on behalf of the interests of many of us commenters.

What all this means is, while we anoymous SLOG commenters can dump on Dan when he's wrong, we DO NOT get to call Dan "craven" or "cowardly". Or "chickenshit." Those things he is not. And we if we already HAVE called him those things in the heat of the comment thread, we apologize. OK?
Huh - my comment from Friday has disappeared. Here it is again, though most of this has already been covered by this point:

Lindy, you are a beautiful person. Thank you for posting this; you are a smart, savvy lady.

Haters gonna hate; it's predictable as it is pointless. You don't like big girls? No one is asking you to, anymore than anyone is asking you to like gay people. What is being asked of you: NOT HATING THEM. At the very least. If you can manage it.

Telling someone with more weight than might be healthy to simply "stop being fat" is more or less like telling someone with chronic depression to simply "cheer up". If you're not genuinely interested in helping people with their issues, why are you calling them out, exactly?

Full disclosure: I like large, curvy women. Do you know what they look like to me? Women.
"But you can’t sit on the couch stuffing Twinkies in your mouth and bitch about how shallow your partner is for not finding you attractive anymore because some people get cancer. Please." - Dan Savage

And posting that Tim Minchin video was crass. Dan thinks bullying fat children is just fine, so long as they aren't gay. (Because Dan himself was a fat child who remains obsessed with food to this day. He controls every bite his kids take. He's said so. Lindy's opened up a true can of worms here.)
Why do medical professionals hate fat people?…
@ 1080 littlesparrow 7: If you understand how much shame is involved in binge eating and if you can understand how scary it is for a fat person to actually exercise, eat, or sometimes just walk in public than I find it hard understand how you can say that you find "obesity" disgusting and that you are totally fine with finding it disgusting.

Other than you I fortunately never have been sexually abused. In fact, all the traumatic experiences that I made as a child/ teenager were mostly due to being fat. Yes, ironically enough, those experiences have contributed to my eating disorder. But I was fat BEFORE that - just less so. And until the shaming and bullying got really bad, I was actually an active and happy child.

As for overeating being the only cause of obesity: There is evidence that weight is to quite a large percentage inherited. Note that this does not contradict that people have on average been getting fatter since estimates of the heritability of a given trait only hold for a given environment, that is, some people are genetically predisposed to become fat in an environment where food is plentiful and the opportunity to exercise is scarce. There are also other factors that seem to contribute to weight gain – repeated weight cycling actually seems to be one of them, and so are certain chemicals in the environment and people have no complete control concerning how much they are exposed to these chemicals. There are also plenty of medications who have weight gain as a possible side effect – especially quite a few psychotropic drugs. Also, worrying about weight has been found to be a predictor of weight gain (and yes, they did control for actual weight – so it was not the actual weight of participants who drove the effect).

More importantly, however, even if a given person got fat by overeating and overeating alone it does not necessarily follow that this person would lose all the weight by simply normalizing food intake. There is data that people who have formerly been fat (and I mean truly fat, not 10 or 20 over what is considered "ideal") but have managed to lose all or a large part of their "excess" weight are not metabolically the same as people who have always been thin. In fact, they have metabolic parameters that are somewhat similar to that of a starving person.

You know, I actually might lose weight by doing what I am doing right now - normalizing my relationship with food and my body. If I do, I will be one of the lucky few for whom this is the case. But here is the thing: No matter what the actual outcome concerning weight, I will be both, mentally but also physically healthier when I succeed with this. I will have lower stress and anxiety levels. (And stress is a major factor in many of the diseases that are also linked to obesity.) I will be able to actually enjoy food. And I will finally, finally be able to live my life without wasting so much energy on matters that are trivial in the grand scheme, namely my weight. I just wish that society wouldn't make it so damn hard for me to actually do that.
@1090: that's great. but i wasn't actually talking about or to you in 865.
@1112, No, we can't dump on Dan when he's wrong, at least not directly. He's closed comments on all his Slog posts. Cowardly!
@1090: that's great. but i wasn't actually talking about or to your comment in 865.

"Except that if you stop eating, you die. It's not really the same, but do try again."

Things can be extreeeeeeemely similar without being completely identical. Food addiction and drug addiction are extreeeeeeemely similar without being completely identical. I am willing to stipulate that.

I don't see the need to try again. I don't see how that changes anything.
1114, People shouldn't stuff their mouths with Twinkies, and complain that the effect snack cakes have on your body makes some people less attracted to you physically.

That video said parents shouldn't feed their children junk food. Please point out why that is a wrong message?
This is going to be a moot point in ten years, I'm pretty sure. Dieting doesn't work but certain nutritional supplements do--and not dangerous stimulants. People are fat because our bodies are malnourished. We are starving for certain nutrients, so we overeat to get more of the trace amounts in our food. The problem is in our food supply and our poor soil. The word will get out sooner or later.
There's just way too much to say about this, so I did it on my blog post: "Yes, You Are Fat":
"Sure, he's managed to be civil in several questions involving overweight people. But his hatred for fatties has been pretty clear in others."

Haha. "Heads I win, tails you lose."
christ, dan's response is really disappointing. "here are some more things i've said previously, which do not address the fact that i have offended someone i know personally. rather than apologizing, let's talk more about the health statistics of people who are not me, whose lifestyle choices i know nothing about and which do not affect me in any way whatsoever."

hey, good news, dan, because you don't have to like a goddamn thing about anyone else's body! not one single thing. it's your lucky day. you're totally free to just shut the fuck up.
@1120, if we stipulate Ozzy as an outlier, then generally humans don't *need* to take addictive drugs to live. Humans do need to eat to live--'Just Say No" is not an option. Thus our relationship with food addiction is far more complex than your reductionist analogy.
I seldom comment and feel sheepish doing so now, but hey, all the kids seem to be doing it.

For whatever reason, there are many people like Lindy who have been "fat" most of their lives. That is such a different experience than folks who became overweight in adulthood. For whatever reasons caused a lifetime of being overweight, I believe that the causes run much deeper, be they genes, psychological reasons, whatever. I have witnessed how much more difficult it is, if not how impossible it is for these people to ever reach an “ideal” weight. And yes, it's unfair for the likes of Dan Savage to (apparently?) to be insensitive of that.

That said, everyone I know that is overweight, regardless if they have been so all their lives or have become that way in adulthood, are trying to slim down or don't give a fuck, are older or younger, etc., all have one thing in common- they tend to eat at least twice as much as I do in one sitting. And I'm not skinny. And I love to eat but I choose not to OVEReat. Being satiated is different than eating until you are stuffed. I guess I'm luckier that I have the ability to do that. But it's a very conscious choice for me to always skip dessert and sweat my fucking ass off on a regular basis to be somewhat in shape.

Why should I have to be tolerant of the fact that I consistently see overweight people who don't (usually) burn as many calories as I do in a day eat so much more than I do? Food addiction aside, it's still selfish behavior and is a waste of resources. And yes, it's unhealthy.

Even knowing this is gonna really piss some sloggers off, I can no longer resist addressing a point I have seen repeated a number of times here.

I see the similarities in the demand that fat people just control themselves to bible thumpers thundering that gay people should simply not be gay. I have heard it said that there is no sin in being a homosexual--it is ACTING on "homosexual urges" that they condemn. A lifetime of stifling the normal healthy urge to have delicious sex with someone of your choosing seems kinda like stifling the normal healthy urge to eat yummy things--the yummy things of your own choosing.. How is who you like to fuck all that different from what you like to eat? What about folks who like sex on the somewhat more risky side? What about the health consequences in that sort of choice? Let's be careful to remember all the nutty and fucked of shit that people said about people with HIV back in the day. And I'm sure some would still say people who get HIV deserve it because they should have kept their pants on. Google Ryan White or read about how radical it was when Lady Diana embraced children with HIV. Lots and lots of people allow the EEEEEWW factor to dominate their views on and treatment of people who are gay and we can all agree that is fucked up and to be stamped out so why is it OK to allow the eeeeeww factor about fat to end up with people being mistreated?
I think people on Dan's side just aren't taking the time to reply. The article is clearly just bullshit. You didn't want to be skinnier more than anything so don't say that. And yeah congratulations you found out it takes more than a diet to be healthy. It takes running everyday and a normal diet that is healthy.

Also you're whole point about fat rolls not being unsightly? Really? YOU AREN'T WEARING A SKIN TIGHT SHIRT SO HE ISN'T TALKING TO YOU. I don't see fat rolls sticking out, because you know that it would be disgusting to have them hanging out.

That isn't even a diss to fat people, it is truth. It's commonly accepted that buttcracks are nasty too, but they are fine covered up. Also most guys dicks if they were just hanging out would be disgusting but we keep them under clothes, just as fat people should with fat rolls.

I'm 5:9 and 143 pounds and yes I eat retardedly and happen to be lucky my metabolism is good. However I went through a period where i stopped running everyday and I became chub. It's harder for some people but that doesn't mean impossible or even improbable, it means you lack motivation, and it is bullshit that you say you accept your body now and won't discuss it again. You posted that because you still are pissed, you wouldn't have even made this post if you were happy with your body, its obvious it is just covering up the fact you are self-conscious about your body.

Don't unfairly attack Dan, He gives credit to people I think are crazy and happens to be spot on a lot, and even if his ideas are no longer novel, to the people he is helping they are. Telling fat people they should love their bodies is disgusting, imagine what underfed people in impoverished countries think about obesity? Fuck I could talk about it all day and I doubt anyone will even read this post, either because it's 1/1100 or my name's Anal Smith or its too long. Either way fuck it. I usually finish writing comments and then never post them but there are too many ridiculous comments I need to even them out.
@1116 Fatcarrot

I find obesity disgusting because even with all the information we have out there on eating right and living well, there's still an obesity epidemic. I also find it disgusting because of the mass amounts of deluded people making excuses for it. It we flip this around, I'm disgusted by anorexia, as well.

This thought just occurred to me...but...Could it be possible that your entire life is a sort of rebellion against your parents for forcing you to obsess about your weight and about food? Parents are the most significant people in our lives - for better or worse - and they contribute to so many of our predicaments, both good and bad. Their influence is pivotal to our development. If you were forced as a young child to constantly be aware of the size of your body in comparison to others and your consumption of food, wouldn't it make sense that something inside of you is crying out to act against those restrictions? Almost anyone who is restricted will eventually act out against "the ties that bind them", consciously or not.

It sounds like some part of you is always shouting out, "Fuck all of you (specifically your parents, but also anyone you perceive as being against you because of your weight), I am going to eat what I want when I want to, because I am a free individual...AND...I will make you accept me and love me as I am...fat and all!" Given your experiences, you have every right to feel this way, or at least for some part of you to feel this way.

That's just a shot in the dark on my part, but it comes from reading about your experiences and your take on the whole issue of obesity. Have you ever confronted your parents directly regarding the pain you experienced as a child because of the restrictions they enforced surrounding your food intake? It definitely sounds like there would have been better, gentler ways of dealing with your weight and health as a young child. I truly feel for you.
Can I just take a moment to say I never thought Dan would be chickenshit enough to disable comments on his responses to this post. I'm disappointed. Lindy wins imho
@1130, Nah. Jennifer Hudson was hot before, now she disgusts me.
@1125 Hydroza: I don't think most of the people here are quibbling about whether or not Dan has apologized to Lindy (that's between them, and doesn't necessarily define the debate--you can apologize for having a disagreement without changing your position.) Dan isn't saying anything that hasn't been said by a ton of experts, medical doctors, etc.: That for *most* people, food choices and exercise or lack thereof have an effect on weight and health. The loudest voices on this thread seem to be saying, "But there are exceptions to that rule! I have a medical issue that causes me to gain weight, etc." There will be exceptions to every rule. There are people who smoke for their whole lives, and live to be 100. They are the exception to the rule. By your definition, we shouldn't suggest to people that smoking is unhealthy because it isn't unhealthy for everyone, all the time. There is nothing radical or cruel about what Dan is saying, but it isn't what a lot of people want to hear, and so they become defensive.

I don't think Dan is asking for you or anyone else to give him a boner, as you suggested. Your post, way back at 8__ something, talked about the unfairness of wanting to eat yummy food, and not being able to because you would gain too much weight, and that is somehow Dan's/men's fault for forcing you to conform to a certain body image, and that you shouldn't be made to feel you have to look good for men. Jeez. First of all, life isn't fair. I, too, would love to put melted cheese all over my food, but I don't, for the same reason you don't. Do I spend a lot of time thinking how unfair that is? No. You can keep singling out all of the exceptions to the rule, all those odd cases of people who eat nothing but cabbage and weigh 400 pounds, but the average North American eats too much and doesn't get enough exercise. If that point of view has made Dan into some kind of radical, well...get a clue.

I never noticed any fat bias in Dan's writing, but I certainly believe it's there after reading this. I'm always trying to get my white boyfriend to notice his white, male privilege. This was a nice exercise for me in seeing my own thin privilege. I do not, however, think fat bias rises to the level of the type of discrimination queer people and people of color experience, but it's good to think about nonetheless.

You know what, I think with few exceptions EVERYONE is missing the point. Everyone accept one person who was great to remind us that Dan has these blunt rages against all sorts of people, including those HIV persuers in the gay community.

Most of these posts are people defending their attraction for or against fat people. Nothing about societal acceptance of fat people, or very little with respect to empathizing the other side. I'm sorry, in my experience, and many others there are no shortage of obese people (men and women) that expect sexual fullfillment and try to guilt or shame people into accepting them sexually when it is just not everyone's thing. And really that is why this is personal for so many people in this thread, it's about sex ... and about being judged for their sexual preferences, prejiduces, and being incapable of providing sexual fullfillment. Which is I tongue cheek put it, "Dan's gay loving" is ultimately the only thing that will satisfy the masses.

I think Lindy is GREAT, she is proud of who she is and has no shortage of people who feel the same way about her. She is confident and will take or accept what the world gives her, and she is not a quivering whinny bitch who seems like she is owed something. Perhaps that is why she can live such a fullfilling life.
I'd also like to see a Dan vs. Lindy Dance Off.

When's the next Slog Happy?
More as unearth by good vagina @1128: Our society seems to find "fat" funny and mockable all by itself - we are conditioned to laugh when we see heavy people in certain situations, just because they are fat. Substitute some other group in those same situations - black people or tall people or little African kids with HIV or AIDS - and see if there is an automatic humor. I'm talking about cruel stuff here, not a giant trying to sit in an airline seat or a black kid trying to hide in goose feathers. Society points and laughs because of the fatness, and that is automatically stigmatizing. There is a similar "eeeww" factor that society seems to place on fatness as well. Neither is cool.

By the way, I don't mind Dan's lack of comments on his preliminary responses, and leaving all of it here, so the comments can be accepted "in context". I also think that more is coming. And, I always found any apparent negative comments by Dan about fatness to be part of his overall caustic nature and not particular to that group....
jesus whatd i miss?

body image acceptance... savage as fat phobic....

dude, lots of people are into your body whatever you are.

being ugly is not the same as being fat. if you are ugly, you have problems. fat != ugly.

ugly people get discriminated against more than any other
Hm, this is weird :( I really liked the article while still disagreeing with parts of it. I as a former fatty really liked being fat, I even felt sexier and and thought I looked better whenever I got fat but, other people didn't and would make it obvious :(
In the end though I was having trouble breathing and mental heath problems like anxiety which only went away when I started eating better.
I contemplated all of this and my final conclusion is that she is just trying to get the shaming of fat people to stop- and I agree- making me feel bad about being fat just made me eat more comfort food because I felt so bad about myself and like her I always felt like my life was on hold and that didn't change even after I got less fat until I said I was ready to start living.
Now I'm no skinny mini but, I think what we really need to address is the factors that make us fat and unhealthy, bad cheap food readily available, additives that screw up the way our bodies take in food so that most of turns in to fat, kids not being taught to cook for themselves or even what vegetables are anymore in school, and no access to doctors for the poor. Even skinny people can be unhealthy and tax their employers premiums.
We need to stop shaming people and start tackling the systems in place that make us unhealthy. Shaming is the reason why girl at a normal weight go in to the bathroom to puke up there lunches and everyone obsessed with being a size zero. So take all your hatred and anger at fat people and put it to good use making social change instead of making people feel bad.
Even men aren't immune to the pressures:( I like people with curves, my dream is to meet a chubby guy who likes being chubby and accepts himself and isn't all f-d up about his weight. Some acceptance is ok. Girls with tits and asses are hot!! I know because I find it hot!!!
"I find obesity disgusting because even with all the information we have out there on eating right and living well, there's still an obesity epidemic. I also find it disgusting because of the mass amounts of deluded people making excuses for it. It we flip this around, I'm disgusted by anorexia, as well. "

I simply don't understand people who waste an iota of brain space being disgusted by the appearance of other human beings. It's so weird. Overinvested, much? I don't get worrying about other peoples' mass delusions. It doesn't affect you in the least (don't talk to me about insurance, mkay?).
@1128, I had the same thought the other night after Lindy's post appeared. If you really want to argue against obesity from a health care cost perspective, it can just as easily be turned against you: why should the rest of us have to cover the costs for people who knowingly engage in unsafe sex despite the risks, then contract serious diseases? It's a slippery slope trying to draw a line about who does and doesn't deserve to be treated without discrimination...and really, is that a line we want to be drawing at all? I hope not.
I can't help but find it telling that only three male Stranger writers bothered to chime in. WTG Eli, David, and Larry.
Hm, this is weird :( I really liked the article while still disagreeing with parts of it. I as a former fatty I really liked being fat, I even felt sexier and and thought I looked better whenever I got fat but, other people didn't and would make it obvious :(
In the end though I was having trouble breathing and mental heath problems like anxiety which only went away when I started eating better. My main issues with the article where that I have friends who struggle, in a health and mental and yes even social way, because they are fat.
I contemplated all of this and my final conclusion is that she is just trying to get the shaming of fat people to stop- and I agree- making me feel bad about being fat just made me eat more comfort food because I felt so bad about myself and like her I always felt like my life was on hold and that didn't change even after I got less fat until I said I was ready to start living.
Now I'm no skinny mini but, I think what we really need to address is the factors that make us fat and unhealthy, bad cheap food readily available, additives that screw up the way our bodies take in food so that most of turns in to fat, kids not being taught to cook for themselves or even what vegetables are anymore in school, and no access to doctors for the poor. Even skinny people can be unhealthy and tax their employers premiums.
We need to stop shaming people and start tackling the systems in place that make us unhealthy. Shaming is the reason why girl at a normal weight go in to the bathroom to puke up there lunches and everyone obsessed with being a size zero. So take all your hatred and anger at fat people and put it to good use making social change instead of making people feel bad.
Even men aren't immune to the pressures:( I like people with curves, my dream is to meet a chubby guy who likes being chubby and accepts himself and isn't all f-d up about his weight. Some acceptance is ok. Girls with tits and asses are hot!! I know because I find it hot!!!
Lindy, you rock, and don't let anyone else tell you otherwise.
I don't want to get involved in this this whole can of worms. But I will just say this: Lindy and Dan, you guys need to sit down and talk this out before you do any more arguing on Slog.
1128, Dan isn't saying don't eat "yummy things--the yummy things of your own choosing." Eat them all you like. People don't choose to need food. When you get fat, don't complain when some people don't find you attractive, and claim it's not your fault.

People don't choose to be gay. If they choose to over indulge in sex with a lot of people, or have risky sex, they shouldn't complain when they get sick that some people don't find them attractive, or claim it's not their own fault.

People need to be careful about both their sex and food choices.
@1140, many people need hobbies.

We live in a judgmental society and it's not surprising people JUMP to judge before thinking about the person they are judging's feelings (I am completely guilty of this myself).

I can source the countless blogs about celebrity (even the Slog at times) that completely rip other people down for entertainment. Look at the uprising of reality television, people love to watch and judge, so it isn't shocking that as a society some will simply write people off in an instant for trivial things (like weight, what they are wearing, etc).

I do truly believe dialog like this is helpful for those of us who want to be better. Who strive to become more empathetic and a more compassionate human, even from behind a computer.
@ 1130 littlesparrow7

Is part of me shouting "Fuck all of you"? Yes, it is. But this isn't really directed at my parents all that much. My parents have long ago regretted their actions and try to support me as well as they can. In fact, there actions would not have been that bad if the child I was back then wouldn't have experienced their pressure (and honestly, compared to what is done to some fat kids in general it was subtle pressure) as validation of the negative messages I got from my peers and, at times, also teachers. Other kids called me names because I was fat. My parents loved me, sure, but they also said that being fat was bad. Somehow that got linked to the message "well, if being fat is bad and if those kids bully you because you are fat than you deserve to be bullied".

No, the people I am truly angry at are the people that discount my experiences when I talk about them. They are the people that call me names on the street. They are the doctors that lecture me about weight all the time, even when I come to them with an acute ear infection that hurts so much that it makes me cry, and that actually propose weight-loss methods that are quite dubious in nature (such as very low calorie diets). They are the people who assume that I cannot be very intelligent, that I cannot have much self-control, that I cannot be an interesting person to talk to, that I am not a sexual being, and that the best thing I deserve is pity.

It also pisses me off that well-meaning people assume when I tell them I have struggled with eating-disordered behavior that I am talking SOLELY about binge-eating. Yes, that was/ is a large part of it but it was never the only part. As I said before, I have fasted, I have lived on something like four slices of bread and two glasses of milk per day for several weeks, I ate little enough for long enough to lose my period, etc. But these people just ignore it when I talk about those things. And they totally think that I should try the next popular diet, even though I know that dieting is triggering for me.

Yes, this is overstated. No, not everyone is out there to get me. But honestly, until now, I tried to conform. I actually tried to live by society’s rules by the “common knowledge” spouted about health and weight. I really, really tried. It did not work and it did not make me "healthier", not physically, and certainly not emotionally. So, yes, I am rebelling now, I am starting to live by my own rules. But it is damn hard, because that means going out there to a dance workshop and risking that none of the guys will dance with the fat girl or (in the case of an all-women belly-dance group that my teacher or the other dancers will look at me with disgust), it means quieting that little internalized voice that I am a disgusting pig, it means focusing on health and not on weight, and it means doing many more things that I am not used to doing or that scare me.

I truly thank you for engaging in this discussion. I do not agree with you and your view of obesity. (By the way - anorexia and obesity are not opposite poles. Obesity and underweight are opposite poles, and binge eating and anorexia are - mixing those dimensions up is mixing up behavior and possible outcome.) I still believe that on the one hand saying that obesity is "disgusting" and on the other hand wanting to respect fat people is contradictory. But I do believe that you hold both of those positions truly and sincerely even though they might be contradictory.
@1140, this about to sound mean, but obesity is disgusting for evolutionary and simple genetics/survival/intrinsically human reasons. We often become repulsed/un-attracted to that which is grotesquely different than healthy individuals. We are programmed to seek healthy mates with healthy genes to procreate with, and shy away from the very different. This is why you don't like people with deformed faces, etc..

I know you are extremely defensive about this fact of nature, but get over yourself.

Are obese people even attracted to obese people? No. They get with each other because that's the best they can do, but even they are seeking healthy mates in fantasies/porn/TV dramas, etc.

Okay, I get that many of you feel disappointed about Dan's response. Sorry for that. But, when did it become about you? When did you become deserving of an apology that is tailor made to your specifications, seriously when did become about you and your hurt feelings? How do any of us know that Lindy isn't satisfied. Or that there wasn't a heart to heart between the two?

I know this is a touchy subject and I'm sorry for all who have been hurt in the past or will be hurt tomorrow. Still, the tossing of stones is terrible and saddening to read. Have you forgotten your humanity in your thrill to take aim? I've been reading many of you for some years and I've read you in moments when you were down right cruel and nasty. Being unkind is never justified, and we are all guilty of it. No-one escapes their both beautiful and flawed humanity, no-one. Nor do the moments when we are unreasonable arseholes define our entire person. I think it highly unlikely that many of us would like our less than compassionate moments drug out for all to see. Deep down most of us know that we are a confusing mix of champion cheerleader and bully. You cannot escape it, Dan Savage cannot escape it, Lindy West cannot escape it, and I cannot escape it. We do ourselves no favor pretending differently, just like we do ourselves no favors when we put Dan or Lindy (any other person, really) up on a pedestal and forget that they are human.

That said, I hope Dan has adressed Lindy's feelings directly. I hope both of them walked away feeling satisfied. In my opinion it is their satisfaction that matters.

I'll close by extending an apology to any person who finds my questioning their right to demand a response that meets their personal expectations offensive, judgmentat, etc. I'm sorry you
are disappointed. I do not wish to offend you, nor am I judging you, nor am I defending any person's (including Dan's) own words. I'm asking you think as to why you're wedded to a particular response, because it says something about your needs. I am sorry for every unkind word that this entire subject has touched. I'm saying I'm sorry that you have been hurt, rejected, etc. I wish you peace and healing.

Now, I'm going to hibernate for a bit. Ciao.
@1149 said: "All the fat people here on a Friday night that had nothing to do and nobody to do it with, circle jerking each other got the comments up over 430.
It will be interesting when other healthy, active individuals join the conversation this morning and in the coming days."

Dude, you're disgusting. Communication major, indeed.
Lindy, you're an idiot.

Dan has been supportive of Fat Acceptance and Fat Lovers in many, many letters and podcasts.

If you feel upset because Dan doesn't fuck fat people, you should remember that he wouldn't fuck you anyway. You have a vagina.
@1149 Actually, those who are more readily able to lay down fat stores quickly have enjoyed an evolutionary ADVANTAGE all through human history until very VERY recently.

You're kind of just spouting random garbage, aren't you?

STFU about evolution. We don't know that shit. Can you explain, then, why cultural preferences have swung from flapper thin to "rubenesque"? That's cultural. It may have a genetic basis (you like what you saw when you were growing up?) but to say "we're programmed" belies your ignorance.
@1149 Actually, you aren't quite right in your evolutionary theory. In some circles, heaviness was actually a sign of prosperity during the Renaissance and Reformation; after all, food scarcity was the norm for most people until relatively recently in human history. Take a look at a Reuben and tell me if that's a supermodel body. My answer is yes, but I'm not defining supermodel conventionally. ;)
Rob @ 1146 people don't choose to be gay but what makes you think people choose to have the sort of body that requires constant gnawing hunger and almost constantly eschewing yummy foods in order to not become offensively fat? Look I don't want to lean too hard on this comparison because it is too close to somehow relishing a tit for tat discrimination arms race and I always prefer peace to winning an argument but why are you so sure people are fat because they are overeating hand over fist? Why is walking the world with unanswered raging horniness all that different than spending ones life with near constant hunger?
god.. @1149 will the stupid ever stop.. in short..i'm a big old fat fag with a swimmers build husband.who love love loves me. loves looking at me loves being with me. and yes i find big people lovely been with them them..( bears.. heard of 'em ? ) but you know it just occurred to me (..well not just..but for the sake of this thread )..
*opens can of worms..dumps them on the table *
...but..i'm black and generally speaking ( *fuckin worms are everywhere* ) black folks don't hate on fat peoples so much. we don't find them 'disgusting' not to say that we don't have problems with obesity. boy do we ever struggle with obesity..but generally more from a health perspective than a beauty one. still a hurt's a hurt and what people are willfully and gleefully doing is trying to hurt other people into being healthy..including you.
and it never works..or never works for long.
@ 1133: what i'm saying is that the shape of my, or lindy's, or anyone else on earth's body, as well as my health status has nothing to do with dan savage. or anyone but me. at all, ever, for any reason. keep your prejudices off my body.

my point in the melted cheese passage was that when i eat the way my boyfriend eats, i gain weight and he does not. this illustrates that our bodies process nutrients in different ways, for reasons that are beyond our control, and that therefore, you can't know what someone eats by looking at his or her body.

for lunch, 10 minutes ago, i just ate a baked cod fillet with roasted asparagus and some fucking cabbagey/cauliflower side dish, and my boyfriend ate two walnut muffins, a banh mi, and a plate of nachos. that's what he eats. seriously. i also go to the gym three or four times a week and he goes never times a week. however, by the idiotic "i know everything about your lifestyle by looking at you" school of thought, one might look at my body and assume that i eat half a garbage truck for lunch every day or whatever the fuck skinny people think fat people eat.

moreover, though, why does dan even care? what makes him so terrified for the health of people he finds disgusting? like, i have a job and a social life--i don't have space in my brain to go around giving a shit about whether people like to pray to allah or weigh 263 pounds or fuck boys' bottoms. i don't care. it doesn't affect me in any way whatsoever. and if i did care, which would be stupid, i sure as shit wouldn't go around telling people to change their lives and bodies because i don't like them. i would mind my own goddamn business. how fucking arrogant can you be.

i agree that obesity promotes poor health, but it's totally irrelevant. skinny people don't have the right to tell fat people what they should or should not be doing, just like people don't have the right to tell me that they don't like my hair and that i should change it to suit them. i'm not going to give black people skincare tips. dan needs to check his fucking privilege and mind his own biz.
" We often become repulsed/un-attracted to that which is grotesquely different than healthy individuals. We are programmed to seek healthy mates with healthy genes to procreate with, and shy away from the very different."

Someone must have forgotten to tell that to Nigerians, Samoans or Mauretanians, who traditionally favor fat figures. They got all evolution ALL WRONG! And what about those prehistoric gentlemen during the Stonerage, who were lusting after huge butts?

On a more serious note, how you might want to read up on beauty standards throughout various cultures and eras, it might help you rethink your silly white male persepective.
" We often become repulsed/un-attracted to that which is grotesquely different than healthy individuals. We are programmed to seek healthy mates with healthy genes to procreate with, and shy away from the very different."

Someone must have forgotten to tell that to Nigerians, Samoans or Mauretanians, who traditionally favor fat figures. They got all evolution ALL WRONG! And what about those prehistoric gentlemen during the Stonerage, who were lusting after huge butts?

On a more serious note, how you might want to read up on beauty standards throughout various cultures and eras, it might help you rethink your silly white male persepective.
1156 If you want, Constantly eat "yummy foods", rather than a balanced diet. Just take responsibility for the consequences, and don't claim it's not your fault when you get fat.

Gay or straight, if you want, constantly have unprotected sex with strangers, rather than carefully choosing your partners, and using condoms. Just take responsibility for the consequences, and don't claim it's not your fault when you get sick.
1151: I never said I was a communication major. You might be referring to a prior post I made criticizing the Stranger's dismissal of it as an academic program-- but to infer I am a or was a student is bogus.
@1148 Fatcarrot - your post broke my heart a little. It pains me to read that it's hard for you to go to a dance workshop and worry that you'll be judged by the other women there (which is probably true; women can be incredibly judgmental of other each) and that no guys will want to dance with the "fat girl." I hate that people have been cruel to you, and I admire your courage in doing something that frightens you, just as I admire Lindy for having the guts to talk about the shame she's felt.

I certainly have my own issues around my feelings about obesity, my fear of getting fat and the food guilt I struggle with on a daily basis. I'm well aware that my self-image is completely distorted and informed by rigid ideals about what's attractive or not. So while we might be in very different places weightwise, I empathize with you and give you credit for focusing on health instead of just weight. It's not an easy thing to do, at least not for me.
I feel bad for Dan. Called out and put into a no-win situation, at least in the eyes of Lindy apologists. Reply the way he *could*, the way many of you jackals would like, and he's a big boss-man bully, further imprinting the "victim" label Lindy seems to have all but sewn up for herself and her BFFs. Take the high road and simply let his many previous words speak for themselves (and he didn't "cherry pick" his links any more than Lindy did, and IMO his links provided a much clearer view of his voice on the matter than hers) and he's called a "coward" by those same people. People not fit to wear his jock. (As far as comments being turned off, what would be said there that wouldn't have been said here?)

I'm impressed he chose the latter route.

In the interest of full disclosure: I have never met Dan and probably never will.
@919: You are missing several important concepts:

1) Often these people have gotten to their present weight on a normal diet of 2000 calories a day OR LESS. You seem singularly unwilling to concede this point.

2) These people are reporting severe hunger even a) on a normal diet of 2000 calories a day, and b) WHILE THEIR BODIES CONTINUE TO GAIN WEIGHT ON THAT "NORMAL" DIET.

It isn't a matter of "oh, they've just been eating way too much and now they have to give their brains time to adjust." They already were eating what should be a normal diet. Sometimes less. Their fat-storage mechanisms are literally depriving the rest of their bodies, even at bare subsistence level intakes. Their brains, and their fat-storing metabolisms, aren't ever going to adjust.

And all you can do is insist that they just need to eat less, and that if only they would be thin, they would eventually be all better, and healthy. Pardon me, but I'm at the point-and-laugh stage with you.

It really, really isn't that simple.
1153: I said people who are OBESE are repulsive to other humans for selection reasons, not FAT.
Honestly can't believe that Dan had the nerve to respond without allowing comments. Way to get the last word by any means necessary.
Rob @ 1161 You win. I am unequal to the task of getting an idea to stop bouncing right off your head. I hope someone who loves you gives you a nice but not fattening Valentine.
@1167 to be accurate, he said all those words well before lindy's. so...not the last word by any means necessary.
Nobody's arguing that it's healthy to be fat. Did Lindy ever say that? Her post is about how we treat other people -- even people who aren't perfect. Yeah, most fat people aren't perfect-they overeat. They have issues with food. But who the hell is perfect? Maybe you don't have a problem with food, but you probably have something about you that isn't so great -- do you want it rubbed in your face day in and day out? Would that be constructive? I don't think so. There are a TON of unhealthy behaviors, like drug addiction. How often does Savage harp on drug addicts? I can't recall if he ever has. Why the constant harping on fat people? I think that is a legitimate question.
You know, Kim, Savage could have made his reductio ad absurdum attack on gay marriage opponents using lots of groups: the mentally ill, people with genetic diseases, alcoholics. He could have even gone extra classy and stayed away from conditions you don't choose, and instead picked on those who made their own beds, like high school dropouts or convicted felons. "Ban Retard Marriage" would have made the point just as well (and dickishly) as "Ban Fat Marriage". And "Ban Felon Marriage" or "Ban Dropout Marriage" would have removed a lot of the unnecessary cruelty.* Maybe he wanted to spare the feelings of all the high school dropouts and ex-cons he's hired.

But no. Dan Savage went straight down the list of options to attack his go to victims of choice: the overweight. Why? Because he worries about their health? Yes, he's said that. Because there's an obesity epidemic? He's said that too. Because holding people accountable for their weight is sometimes justified? He's said that on occasion.

But the real reason is that Savage's special mission in life is to shame fat people because he thinks that he's saving lives by making fat people feel worse, and he thinks science wants him to shame fat people. And as a bonus getting a free pass to go on a tear about much fat people squick him out.

* The flaw in the argument is that dysfunctional straight people will breed anyway. It's practically the sine qua non of dysfunctional straight people to reproduce inappropriately and to excess. Banning them from marriage wouldn't slow them down a bit. Whereas if gay parenting were in fact undesirable, then you could realistically reduce the number of gay parents by banning gay marriage, since adoption would be a little harder. The moral is: talk about reality and leave hyperbolic reductio ad absurdum stunts on the shelf next to where you keep your sleazy Quisling comparisons of your allies who slightly disagree with you. Godiwn thanks you. The only point is that gays are not worse parents, and deserve marriage as much as everyone else, and you can just say that without bashing fat people or drunks or high school dropouts.
@1166: Um...what?
@1148 fatcarrot

I applaud you for accepting yourself and trying to let everything go. That's definitely the very best place to be, and everything else will follow. I think it's awesome you're putting yourself out there, despite the restrictions you feel.

On another topic mentioned pity. All of us struggle with something, or with many, many things, one after the other. That's a major fact of life, if not THE fact of life. Some of us are better than others at hiding all the shit we've been through, but like that old song goes, "everybody's got a story that could break your heart." I've had more than my share of heartache and pain, to the point of absurdity, but the last thing I want is for someone to take pity on me or feel sorry for me. To me, pity is something that takes my power away and turns me into the victim of my circumstances. Pity does this by seeing me only through the lenses of my past dejectedness, instead of seeing me from a place of transcendence. It keeps me stuck in the past. I don't want to wallow in the suffering, I want to move on. I want to feel empowered, and to do that, the only thing I can do is live life fully, freely, respectfully, and gratefully.
#1165 "Often these people have gotten to their present weight on a normal diet of 2000 calories a day OR LESS." - there's a study in UK last year about how there is a big discrepancy between what people self report how much they eat and how much they actually eat (they used hidden cameras I think). There're just so many foods (a little candies here and there) and sometimes habits (using a bigger bowl) that people don't realize and they consume more calories than they think they did.
Kim @ 1150, this became about all of us when they decided that slog was the place to have this discussion - by "all about us," you mean "when did we become emotionally vested in this?" Such emotional investment is pretty human. I'm a bit surprised at you.

I'm disappointed, but not surprised, that Dan hasn't apologized because he called bullshit on Lindy - in public, on the "RE: Ban Fat Marriage" thread. And she showed that it wasn't bullshit, in public on this thread. The way the game should be played now, is that the apology should come in public.

I do judge these things because I know how to say I'm sorry when I'm wrong, and I expect everyone else to be able to do that, too. What a better world it would be if everyone could.

I re-read all the offending columns. I'm now firmly in the Savage camp. He hasn't said anything hateful, but apparently anything but "being fat is beautiful" is an attack on the self-esteem of fat people. BS. Savage was just as tough on gays who thought asking for personal responsibility in practicing safe sex was tantamount to shaming gays for having sex.
@1165 avast2006

What you say is just not true. I know many fat and obese people, and they indeed eat more than 2000 calories a day. There's only a very select few who become obese from eating 2000 calories a day or less, and these people have SEVERE health problems that need to be addressed immediately. If what you say is true, then many people in third world countries, without adequate food supplies, would also be obese. We don't find this phenomenon to be the case, and therefore it's not true.

In the case of severe hunger that cannot be ignored, it could be a case of hypoglycemia, an often pre-diabetic condition wherein the individual craves simple carbs and sugars because of severely low blood sugar. Hypoglycemia almost always leads to weight gain BECAUSE of excessive caloric intake. This is also a problem that needs to be addressed immediately, because it's often an indicator that the person is on their way to developing Type 2 Diabetes.
@1177: "What you say is just not true. I know many fat and obese people, and they indeed eat more than 2000 calories a day."

Fail. Anecdotes are not the same as data. (And you're not learning anything at .)
I don't get this thinking. I have been fat and thin at various periods of my life and lived with a family that is almost always been overweight. Sometimes it's because people get too busy to work out or stress food or whatever. But this idea that there is a "fat type" and that some people just can't lose weight is absolute horseshit. All genetics and the other features people invoke as to why they are fat just affects the rate at which anyone loses or gains weight. It is biologically impossible to be fat you are not overeating and overeating consistently is unhealthy. Overeating is eating substantially more than you'll burn in a day. If you eat less calories then you burn, you will lose weight, if you don't, your body stores it. Sometimes that is good but doing it all the time throws off hormone balance, stresses joints etc.

However, if you are overweight but in good physical shape, you are doing better than an out of shape thin person. Nevertheless, the idea that you are embracing your body like it's some type ignores the responsibility you have for making your body the way it is. It's embracing habitual overeating as some women empowerment. It's a fine choice to make, and I don't, like dan, think rolls are unsightly. But it is scientifically well supported it's unhealthy. If you're happy with how you live your life, then do it, but don't act like "some people" just have to be fat. It's biologically impossible.
@1179 I've commented here many times, and I'm not going to repeat the information that I've left on this topic. Lie to yourself all you want.
This obese woman admits to eating 33,000 calories a day:…
@1164--right on! Dan is soooo smart to have put his answers in a no comment form. He's not the boss just because he can write snarky, funny, and damn good advice. This has become the saddest, most unpleasant Slog post ever. I'll bet Lindy wishes she'd sent Dan a private email at this point--I sure as hell do. It's like a nest of vipers in here.
@1181: Anecdotes are not data. You won't get anywhere until you understand that.

@1182: It's a blog--it's for commenting. More comments -> more page hits -> more $$$. Dan's had years of becoming thick-skinned as a public figure; he could easily have ignored any comments. Netiquette says shutting down commentary is always bad. Lindy FTW.
@1181 - You're so right people don't realize how much calories they are putting in sometimes. I have a coworker who eats mostly salad for lunch but then gulps down a big cup of Star Bucks latte which probably has more calories than a big Mac.
@1183 WeeblesWobble

Here ya go (FACTS from the European Congress on Obesity):

"Are too many calories to blame for the raging obesity epidemic in the US? The answer is yes, according to an exhaustive study that squarely blames excessive energy intake for bulging waistlines since the 1970s.
“This study demonstrates that the weight gain in the American population seems to be virtually all explained by eating more calories,” said Boyd Swinburn, head of population health at Deakin University who led the study.

The scientists started by testing 1,399 adults and 963 children to determine how many calories their bodies burn in total, under free-living conditions. The test is the most accurate measure of total calorie burning in real-life situations.

Once they had determined each person’s calorie burning rate, Swinburn and his colleagues were able to calculate how much adults needed to eat in order to maintain a stable weight and how much children needed to eat in order to maintain a normal growth curve.

They then worked out how much Americans were actually eating, using national food supply data (the amount of food produced and imported, minus the amount exported, thrown away and used for animals or other non-human uses) from the 1970s and the early 2000s.

The researchers used their findings to predict how much weight they would expect Americans to have gained over the 30-year period studied if food intake were the only influence.

“If the actual weight increase was the same as what we predicted, that meant that food intake was virtually entirely responsible. If it wasn’t, that meant changes in physical activity also played a role,” Swinburn said.

The researchers found that in children, the predicted and actual weight increase matched exactly, indicating that the increases in energy intake alone over the 30 years studied could explain the weight increase, said a Deakin release.

“For adults, we predicted that they would be 10.8 kg heavier, but in fact they were 8.6 kg heavier. That suggests that excess food intake still explains the weight gain, but that there may have been increases in physical activity over the 30 years that have blunted what would otherwise have been a higher weight gain,” Swinburn said.

These findings were presented May 8 at the European Congress on Obesity."

@1170 thank you.
Very few people with obesity issues in the third world. Maybe you should try the "living on less than a dollar a day" diet?
984 et al: Littlesparrow, you dopy bint, it's NOT ABOUT YOU.
Kim in Portland @1150: Your earlier comment was appreciated, but a bit off the mark. I didn't mean to accuse you, but merely point out that your comment was most easily perceived as defensive when viewed within the larger context of the thread. I only meant for you to consider the ramifications of such a response, given the climate of hurt feelings here; I certainly didn't mean to cast aspersions on your background or qualifications, of which I knew nothing. Kindly remember that meaning is negotiated, so other understandings of your words are often just as valid as your own. I simply wished to point out how your statements could be interpreted when approached from another perspective, and I do not think that can be dismissed as a simple tendency to find fault.

(Although, finding fault is rather an occupational hazard for an editor...) ;)

In @1150, however, I believe you are again doing Mr. Savage no service here by questioning people's demands for an explicit apology. A public statement expressing some kind of remorse is a logical desire, because the problem was caused by similarly public comments. Mr. Savage may link to as many examples of contextually appropriate discussion as he wished, but these do not erase his many other comments where he uses obesity as a convenient dog to kick. It is those for which he should apologize.
@1183 sometimes decorum (esp inter-office) trumps "more $$$." his comments section being turned off does not affect you at all, aside from keeping you from potentially drawing more hits to your own blog. about which i'm sure he's very sad. but he did not add anything to the convo that he's not already said many times before, hence no need for another open comments section.
Love Letter to Lindy West: I love you so much, as a writer I mean, that when your copy editor was a guest speaker in my class, I was a little bit sweaty and nervous. Because she gets to edit your copy. And I love your copy.

I can't work up an opinion about your fat. My own fat bugs me, mostly because I want to buy cute pants. But your fat doesn't bug me, and in fact I think it might be responsible for your lovely boobies.

I definitely like your words, and if your words come from that bod then that bod is pretty fucking great.
Linds!!!! I do hope you're still listening because hear this: You are awesome from top to bottom, front to back, side to side, inside to out.

I spent years being obsessed by my weight. Years doing everything I could to not eat. Not-eating was an all-consuming activity. It did not make me happy, it did not help my health (quite the opposite: my hair fell out and my periods stopped), but worst of all, I was not-eating when I could have been really DOING something, having a blast, writing the Great American Novel. What a stupid waste!

I have a high-normal BMI now and feel fine---but I still look plump to the average eye, and people do call me fat. Well, fuck THEM, you know? I couldn't care less what they think of me, but I WOULD like to have a do-over on the time and energy I wasted on pursuing some crazy body ideal. I'd much rather be remembered for what I said than how I looked. Because what I say and do lasts forever, and how I look? Well, ask any aging actress how that's working for her.

Girl, you have more talent in your little finger than 95% of us. Good on you not to squander your energy on extraneous things.
The way the game should be played now, is that the apology should come in public.

Dan doesn't think he owes her an apology. He said her claims are bullshit, and he's doing a damn good job of proving that, which is all he owes Lindy. He doesn't owe us anything because he didn't start this discussion. He doesn't want to hear our opinions and I don't blame him. He's heard it all before, and if he's interested he can come here.

He asked for links showing him stigmatizing and hating on fat people. Links that he never got.

He said that Lindy's accusation was bullshit. That's it. And now she's given him a reason to show his numerous defenses of fat people who actually came to him for help.

This is going to backfire on Lindy (if it hasn't already) because she misunderstood a post of Dan's, overreacted, and handled it poorly, probably due to the fact that she's been carrying a grudge for a long time.
@1175 Matt: People keep mentioning an apology. It seems to me that they are assuming that Dan was wrong, and "cowardly" for not owning up to his "wrongness." I understand that he is blunt, and honest, and doesn't treat people with kid gloves, but I fail to see how that makes him "wrong." You think that Lindy "called him out" on her fat marriage post, and that because she has a lot of supporters here, that somehow proves her point? What I see is Dan calling bullshit on *anyone* who is in denial: Be they a douche straight guy, a barebacking gay guy, a hypocritical Christian, overweight person who hates his life and yet has no intention of changing his eating habits. I truly think a lot of people on this thread are just shooting the messenger.
So all Dan can do is cherry-pick columns where he doesn't deride fat people? Really? And put them up closed to comments? For fuck's sake. Showing examples of when he wasn't a dismissive ass to fat people does not in any way speak to the subject of him sometimes being a dismissive ass to fat people. Why not either write a thoughtful response or just leave it alone for now?
I love you for this, Lindy. I think my heart just grew 3 sizes. So fucking inspiring.

Anyone with an opinion on this subject needs to watch this BBC documentary, Why Are Thin People Not Fat? If you want to know what science has to say, it's required viewing:…

Thanks to seattlegrrrl for posting it on the earlier thread.

Sorry but I am not impressed.
If you cut out carbs completely and joined a gym you would lose weight GUARANTEED. So, uh, this is basically a lot of grief for nothing, girl. Get over yourself. Seriously. I do not feel even a little bit sorry for you.

Yes, Dan is blunt and doesn't treat people with kid gloves. However, in nearly every other issue he advises on, he can talk about the matter in shades of gray: cheating, as an example. He's usually only harsh or cruel on people who are obnoxious jerks.

But on the weight/"fatness" issue, Dan doesn't seem to deal in very many shades of gray. Like many other posters here, he speaks as if overweight = eats too much = lazy. What Lindy and the posters who are defended/supporting her are saying is that weight is NOT that simple.

Why is it not that simple? Because what we use to measure health in relation to weight are not always accurate.

For instance, if you evaluate me based on appearance alone, I am anywhere from "chubby" to "overweight" (confirmed by helpful Internet trolls.)
If you evaluate me based on BMI, I am healthy and normal. (5'1" and 121 pounds.)
If you evaluate me based on body fat content, I am "fair" at 27%.
If you evaluate me based on waist-hip circumference (bust: 35 1/2, waist: 32 1/4, and hips 36 3/4) it's amazing I'm not having a heart attach right now.

Even WEIRDER is that after going to the gym for 3 months 3 times a week and working out at least an hour, I've lost body fat, but absolutely no weight or inches. Yet I know I'm getting stronger, because I can do more reps/heavier weights. I'm also not breathing as heavily when doing the Stairmaster, and yet my resting heart rate hasn't decreased.

And just to throw even MORE confusion onto the mix, my eating habits have not changed at all since before I started working out til after.

So what does this mean? That weight and health are complicated, incredibly individualistic experiences. Dan seems to take that into account in other areas... And yet in the links other people have posted, he's demonstrated an inability to reconsider weight = health = completely in an individual's control.
Matt @ 1175,

Would it matter if Lindy and Dan were satisfied? Or do they owe Slog some announcement?. I'm wondering about how many people feel that they are owed an apology from Dan for their own feelings of hurt or emotional involvement in this thread? Is the apology needed for Lindy, and individuals are upset for her, or is it for every single person here? If the apology is needed for all,then what does it need to say?

Those are my questions. Just questions, not judgements. And, clearly you feel that there must be some public announcement. Thank you for sharing.

Sorry you're "surprised" at me. I'm sorry to have disappointed you
with my questions.

Take care.
@1062, of course, the difference is that Kate Harding IS a dishonest paranoid douchebag. And also a bigger bully than Dan could ever hope to be in his cruelest dreams.

I've been meaning to post in this thread to thank Lindy for not linking to her.
How terribly sad and pitiful that people feel this need to attack your posts, your experience and then STILL attempt to shame you. That. Is. INSANITY! You wrote very well, you expressed your point beautifully and those that are taking all this time to attack you and your writings...I'm just amazed at the belittling. We have 1 single rule in my house - treat others the way you want to be treated. Clearly you that have attacked her either 1, don't know that rule or even the idea of it and 2, must want to be attacked...? Is this what happened to you folks while growing up? You seem to be missing a lot of love. Really? I pity you folks...not someone that is overweight.
@1132, Jennifer Hudson *disgusts* you now? Seriously? Because her shape has changed? She was gorgeous before and she's gorgeous now, she's got a beautiful face and a lot of class. Saying you find her 'disgusting' is absolutely as offensive as saying you found her disgusting before but now she's attractive. jesus christ.

You DO realize that there are two kinds of carbohydrates, sugars and starches. Starches are complex carbohydrates that take longer to be digested and include foods such as breads, grains, pasta, tortillas, noodles, fruits and vegetables.

... So by telling her to cut out carbohydrates you're pretty much saying stop eating most fruits or vegetables. She also can't eat bread or pasta. So that's left her with diary, meat and fish. Of course if she's a vegetarian/vegan, and "cutting out carbs," she's royally screwed isn't she?

I suppose starving IS a good way to get rid of fat until she, ya know, dies from starvation.

Oh, wait, you meant something different when you said "cut out carbs"? You meant THESE carbs, not THOSE carbs. So, actually, it's a little bit more complicated than what you first suggested by just suggesting to a random stranger based on only her body weight "Hey stop eating this entire food group." Hm.
Amen and Amen again! Thank you for your declaration/manifesto! I was recently rejected from my jobs health insurance because of my weight and it really put me into a depression because I am healthy. No one is advocating taking health insurance away from smokers, drug addicts, or people who have unprotected sex. Fat people have become the only unhealthy people in the world. Because of this new wave of media phatphobia under the cause of "health concerns", I really had to stop and reassess my understanding of my own worth. I've been fat since I was 12 and I've accomplished a lot since then, more than a lot of people my again and from my background. And I'm not going to wait until I'm skinny to be proud of myself. I have so much to say on this topic but all of that to say thank you for using your voice in such an important way.
@1196 in addition to Dan not adding anything new to the discussion, people like you are probably another reason his comments section is closed.

a) he didn't "cherry-pick" columns any more than Lindy did.
b) the columns he linked to are examples of him SUPPORTING "fat" people (not merely avoiding mocking them...if you want to find a column where he merely "doesn't deride fat people," then go to his archive, close your eyes, and randomly click a link).
c) he *IS* leaving it alone...he's just directing you to things he's already said in the past.
The latest Slog post just pushed this one off page 1. I'm guessing if they haven't bumped it by now, no bump's in the offing.
when was the last art post that got this much attention. oprah baby!

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