Blogs Feb 14, 2011 at 6:18 pm

Comments

307
@296
"Rolls of exposed flesh are unsightly" is not a tame statement of fact; it's a highly charged statement of opinion, really no different from "light skin is prettier." It's a judgment based on cultural prejudices--ones shared by a majority of Westerners, to be sure, but prejudices all the same.

Of course it's an opinion. Aesthetics are based in opinion. Fashion advice is always based on what's "sightly" or "unsightly" in the eyes of the viewer. He was saying that a particular body type doesn't look good in a particular garment (in his opinion, obviously).

308
What can one expect from the man who once described female genitalia as looking like a ham dropped from a great height?
309
@1 for the win.

Wow, 309 posts - cool.
310
Dan, I think you are exactly right about her externalizing her self-loathing about her weight. If she really was as at peace with herself as she wants us to believe she'd just laugh you off.
311
Epicurus @301 -- do you remember when it was that the discussion of "get a job to get a date"? I kinda wanna listen! Not because I'm unemployed, but because I was and hit a dry spell
312
Canuck@305 You delightfully avoided the other side of the argument...and the one I would rather see: Dan owning up to his bias.

Where do you see the harm in owning up to one's bias if you're going to use language that belittles and shames a group of people and not apologize for it?
313
Except, TheMisanthrope, that assumes there is a bias to be owned up to, which is exactly what Dan, in his own words, is trying to show isn't the case.

And just because some people are overly sensitive and insist Dan MUST be biased and therefore MUST own up to that bias, doesn't make that in the least bit true.
314
@290

"Where do you see the harm in owning up to one's bias if you're going to use language that belittles and shames a group of people."

I'll tell you where I see the harm in it. It seems to me that the real request here is for permission to ignore wholesale everything Dan has to say on the subject. 'Oh, ignore him, he just hates fat people.'

I can and do dismiss everything Dan says about the vagina's attractiveness. Pressed ham or beautiful flower, his opinion on the subject is completely worthless to any rational woman. He's a gay man. He can take it back and apologize for it or embroider it on a pillow, it couldn't matter less. I thought the pressed ham comment was funny. I thought Celie's description of a naked man in The Color Purple was as funny and I think naked guys are hot, generally.

Same, possibly to a lesser extent, with fashion advice. I was pretty lean in my hip rider jeans that made me look like a whale. I appreciated his comments on the subject. They reassured me that it wasn't me, it was the jeans. Still, his opinion on how women look in those jeans is ridiculously unimportant.

If he's commenting on one of the biggest heath problems this country faces, he should be careful about what he apologizes for. We should all be careful about how accepting we are of this. We should all be careful about the criticism we are willing to censor.

Lives are actually at stake. For really reals. It's different.
315
#307: that's what I said; it's an opinion, not a "tame statement of fact."
316
Dont worry about it Dan.
Frankly, you oughtn't even respond to this
your loyal winged monkeys know the truth
317
I loved this response from Dan: It makes perfect sense, even if it is a bit long-winded. I enjoyed reading it, and agree with it!

What's really too bad is that some of the commenters here can't recognize intelligent arguing when they see it (from both LW and DS), and learn from it. It's so boring to read responses from those who cling to single words or phrases and bring 'em back up ad infinitum ("But you once said...!!!" "I'll never let anyone forget what you said out of context a million years ago...!!" It's so...Republican.

I'd love to see a world where everyone wasn't so offended and angered always by every little thought or comment that doesn't match theirs perfectly. It would be so much more interesting than the state of "debate" now, where everyone is a perpetual state of being offended by having to share the planet with people who aren't exactly like them. (Remember that bit about sticks and stones?) Nothing that has happened in the past has the power to effect how you behave in the present moment, unless you let it. In other words, buck up.
318
I echo 7, a dance off is probably the only solution.

To be honest my estimation of Lindy has gone down as a result of all this. I think her Hello, I'm Fat post was too confrontational and geared toward taking Dan down a peg or two. I really enjoy her reviews but I don't think Dan was in the wrong in most of the examples she cited to justify her comments. The ban fat marriage was obviously not an actual argument for banning fat people marrying. It's definitely within people rights and is their perogative to be as fat as they want to be. But expecting everyone to overlook the inherent health risks and cost to society of the obesity epidemic is ridiculous.
319
In order to feel like you own the space you're in (and a lot of women feel that they don't--look at how people sit on the bus), you have to get angry and get political, Then, after a time, you get to a place of real acceptance. I don't think Lindy's there yet. It could take years. Sometimes we target people because otherwise our anger has no sting.

I finally, after so many years, accepted myself and the space I take up in the world, when lo and behold I got diabetes. That shouldn't have been a surprise, as my Dad and his dad and his grandpa and my mom and brother and several uncles and aunts also have it. I never stood a chance.

But as many people love to say "eww, fatties gross," they don't know what it really means to have Diabetes 2. Not being able to see, having doubled-over pains, stabbing pain in the arms and legs, leg cramps at night, not being able to feel your feet. Getting ice-cold feet every day that can only be temporarily helped. Being really tired all the time. Getting cystic boils that don't heal for weeks and weeks. Constant pain.

Now lets add to that the health-care crisis. Trying to work decent hours in order to pay the rent. No metformin or insulin, even though it can be cheap with insurance. Having to stick to a diet that seems pretty easy--ask anyone whose tried to stick to a diet and exercise regimen. SIMPLE! EFFORTLESS! NO PROBLEM AT ALL! If you stray, just a little bit, you're hit with those problems again only worse. You wanna run five miles every day in order to avoid trying to pay for medicine without insurance? Try doing it at 250 pounds.

Having diabetes sucks, and it can kill you. It killed my Grandad.
320
The bottom line: whether or not someone is fat is NO ONE ELSE'S FUCKING BUSINESS. It doesn't mean the subject of SOCIETAL obesity should be off the table, but individual obesity is NOT YOUR PROBLEM. MYOFB.

That being said, if you wanted a real equivalency to show the speciousness of the rationale being used to try to ban gay marriage (health issues, life expectancy, the "ick" factor), a much better equivalent would have been old people. Who has more health problems than old people (in general, not individuals)? Who has a shorter life expectancy? And c'mon, we all know the idea of old people having sex is gross - until you look in the mirror one day and realize that 50 is long behind you. So every argument they're trying to use to justify banning gay marriage can also be used to ban the marriage of old people.
321
@320 Then everyone would just accuse Dan of ageism.
322
TheMisanthrope, could you please be so generous to share with us your occupation?

My guess is that being a writer is work in which thoughtlessness isn't necessarily a drag on quality. Like how Paul Haggis could win the oscar for screenplay 2 years in a row, but casually refuse to verify for himself any criticism against Scientology for over a generation.

You're someone slick enough to have tried denying you were a racist, then deliver a "ching-chong" response to me. Now you're going-on about Dan owning up to a bias. I'm wondering if you're something like a writer.
323
@318 - "But expecting everyone to overlook the inherent health risks and cost to society of the obesity epidemic is ridiculous."

I can't agree with that. I'm not saying, as a society, that we shouldn't encourage healthy habits, but that does not include societal shaming of individuals who don't meet our standards of "healthy" living, whether it's because they're fat, old, gay, drink, whatever. Encouraging healthy living is not the same thing as deciding, as a group, that we can treat a marginalized group like crap because we have made a unilateral decision that they're somehow costing us more money. A civilized society spreads the costs of all those people across everyone. No one costs more in health dollars than the elderly. I recently had two nephews born prematurely, and they spent more than three months in the newborn ICU. Want to talk about what THEY cost society?

My point is that we cannot extrapolate from the general "cost to society" of any group in general to stigmatizing an individual who is in that group. EVERYONE has some habit that costs society money, whether it's driving without a seatbelt, drinking too much alcohol, commuting on too little sleep, practicing high-risk sports, being obese, being old, unsafe sex, whatever. We're all in this together.
324
Dan, you're a dick. And that's okay. We usually like it when you're a dick, because you're being a dick to the people that we think should be treated dickishly. But sometimes you use your dickish powers in ways that we don't agree with. And that's cool too, it's your blog. You have the right (nay the duty) to be a dick in any way you see fit. And we'll just read you and either laugh or say, hey that guy's a dick!
325
Q: If she isn’t ashamed of her body then why would anything anyone said be “hurtful”?

A: Because she is ashamed of her body.
326
I wonder how many people willing to shout Misogyny, or bigot have actually listened to a real scope of Dan's podcasts. He gets paid for the snark, and he pulls it out and aims it any everyone because that's part of what he's paid for--to be entertaining. But what makes people really appreciate his adice is that he really really advocates for all sorts of people. MY GOD he is a huge an ardent advocate for women not being ashamed of their bodies and their desires and he calls sexist bullshit where others don't even see it. He can turn the snark on so we all click our tongues (or laugh), and then he gets a caller on the line and turns into the kindest listener who oozes caring. Dan's one of those guys who if you really listen to you actually believe more of the caring than the snark. So I don't agree with him a lot of the time., SOmetimes I say tomayself he's being a bastard today. But I gotta tell you he sure has convinced me that he profoundly cares about people. People who say he hates women aren't looking past their own noses. Same for people who say he is bigoted. In my opinion.
327
fake fake fake. it's all about the page hits.
328
@ 320 - It wouldn't have been a much better equivalent. It would just have been an equivalent. And then he would have been accused of ageism, as 321 said.

No matter what example he picked, those who don't get sarcasm (which, amazingly enough considering her reviews, apparently include Lindy West!!!) would have come down on him. He chose the most absurd example - since a majority of Americans have a weight problem, banning fat marriage is an obviously ridiculous proposition - and still, hundreds of people are hassling him for it.

This whole debate tells us nothing about Dan, but it tells us an awful lot about the immaturity of the FAs who comment here, their total lack of personal responsibility, the total lack of capacity of many a slogger to understand sarcasm, and their generally unrestrained political correctness.

Not discussing such a massive health problem (no bad pun intended) for the sake of protecting some people's feelings is NOT a sign of sensitivity, it's a sign of stupidity. And it's very dangerous for the health of Americans as a nation and as individuals.

Dan's words (or mine, for that matter) cannot be construed as a call to take away anyone's right to be whatever way he or she wishes to be as an individual. But if you want to be an individual, you should have enough maturity to take responsibility for everything that you are and everything that you did.

329
Dan: I believe you. I don't read vitriol into your intentions. But some people are hypersensitive (read: a tad irrational but not to be dismissed) because they feel like they get it from both barrels all the time. I know you know what that's like. I know it's annoying, but you might consider making more of the disclaimers I love to hear you make when you talk about being fat. You know, like when you say something like "angry bisexuals (not that I'm saying all bisexuals are angry -- just these particular bisexuals)" or something of the sort. It makes it clear that you mean no shame towards people, is funny, and draws attention to the fact that people don't necessarily need to be up in arms about everything all the time (which is helpful in this world of black-and-white statements).

Now, I may catch hell for this and I am an anecdote not a study, but it seems to me that people who are overweight tend to be slightly more depressed than people who are thinner. I don't think this is just because of being made fun of or seeing thin people on TV all the time. I think it is biochemical. Extra fat can mess with some people's hormones, which can make people depressed the same way that being on birth control can make some women depressed. Also, if you are less inclined to exercise, which correlates somewhat with having extra fat, then that can make you depressed too. I've been there and it sucks. Depressed people internalize everything and are oversensitive to criticism because any criticism sucks them back down that hole. It's a chicken-and-egg thing (which came first, the depression or the weight?) and it's not for all people who have extra weight, but it is for many. I don't have much of a point besides that I think this is what causes the minefield in the first place. And that I wish people would try to fix the depression and not specifically the weight. That alone will make you healthy and happy, and that makes everyone a joy to be around.
330
I'd be curious to know how many of the people who are offended by Dan are overweight and have shame issues about it. Because some people seem to be taking it awfully personal.
331
Do you folks really think Dan is a mean guy?

This argument has made me so hungry for a burger and fries.
332
@323 I'm not advocating shaming people who are overweight, but there seems to be an implication in some comments that blogging about or posting links to studies or reports relating to obesity is a no-no because it incites shame. I don't agree that those news item should be off the agenda because they make some people feel bad. I wasn't suggesting that it's okay to point out people in the street and call them fat pigs.
333
@330 - I'm not over weight, but still could see that Dan is fat-phobic when he posted this picture from July 2009. What other reason than to be disgusted by what he saw, would possess him to lead with this picture?

http://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives…
335
Dan:

You don't understand the FA movement, and attribute thoughts, inclination and goals to it, that are not there. Read some more about it. Read studies about dieting. Read about HAES. Listen to some podcasts from two whole cakes. Then come back with an education opinion.
336
Kim:
You'll be in my prayers. I don't offer to pray for people (especially virtual strangers) often, but you seem to be a slogger who won't mind me praying for you. And you've been a slogger that's consistently increased the sense of community around here, for me.
337
@315

Right. So at best you can scrutinize with the semantics of what he said (he should have made it clear that he was talking about his opinion or an opinion common in culture, instead of "fact").

But insofar as advice mingles facts and values, he's bound to speak on the intersection of both. And his comment wasn't problematic in context. Agree?
338
@Misanthrope: I'm not avoiding, I just don't see it as a bias. He doesn't personally want to look at naked women, that doesn't mean he's biased against women in general. He doesn't want his husband to be overweight, he's not against/hateful toward heavy people in general. I think people add "personal preference" to "concerns in general" and get "bias", but I think that's a stretch.
339
@317

Here here!
340
I don't understand the opinion that because someone makes an unhealthy choice you therefore have the right to be an obnoxious, self righteous, judgmental dick to them.

341
Not fat either... Just don't like fat shaming...
342
Yes, Terry, it is kind of messy.
343
It is so hilarious how all the sensitive white libtard "progressives" at Slog often resort to their favorite meme about red-staters, flyover-staters, Christians, and conservatives: that they are all a bunch of stupid fatasses.
344
To everybody saying Dan's a bigot or needs to tone it down: FUCK YOU!! This whole discussion is ridiculous. Lindy West is whiny, insecure, finger pointing, jerk. It's great that she claims that she has accepted herself, but from her defensiveness, I would say she's lying to herself.

Dan is blunt and honest about how he feels, and he always has been. This is why I love him and why I thought everybody did! He's clearly not a bigot. I'm sorry that people who perceive themselves as overweight are offended, but he offends a lot of people. I personally get slightly annoyed about his seemingly anti-monogamy discussions and then I stop and think about it and realize it's just my own insecurities coming into play (I know, crazy, self introspection). You guys really want to start censoring him? Really? His lack of censorship is why we love him, go read other sex advice columnists that tip toe around every issue and are so politically correct they forget to take into account reality. That's the majority of them, so it shouldn't be hard. Seriously, go the fuck away. Enjoy people lying to you your whole lives and enjoy your denial about yourselves.

Please Dan, never apologize. This country has just become so politically correct, they get offended about anything and take everything personally even though it wasn't directed a them. This is when the left acts most like the right, when it comes to political correctness.
345
I actually buy your explanation, Dan. I don't think that the sum total of your writing reveals intentional malice that reveals an underlying hatred of overweight people.

I do think, however, that when you've used the word "fat" as a lazy short-hand for "ignorant", "lazy", "Middle-American", etc. as you did in the Iowa column, you might consider how it could be similar to when someone shouts, "Fag!" at the kid who doesn't throw the ball very well on the playground. Words are words, but just sayin'...
346
I think there's a bunch of interesting stuff to say about fat and class, about who has access to decent produce and information about food, about food standards and how the political machinations of food manufacturers drive the discourse around food standards, but honestly I don't tend to hear it from Dan. What I hear from Dan, because he's a sex columnist, is stuff about bodies, and the stuff Dan says about fat people's bodies is tinged with disgust. If a bunch of fat people say that to you, you might want to listen.

Behaving respectfully towards fat people doesn't mean kowtowing to the evil lies that food manufacturers promote. It just means treating people equally, not just in the workplace, but in terms of the language and attitudes you use. I doubt times one billion that Dan would put up with being employed by someone who treated him with politeness and respect in person, but wrote columns about how being gay was unhealthy, disgusting, etc.

Yes, fatphobia is hate speech; yes, it matters what fat people think of how you write about them; yes, this is a bunch of wounded privilege denial. Man up, Dan. Next stop: biphobia. Anyone on-staff want to run with that?
347
a. dan's original post about iowa didn't warrant lindy's response, no. he was making an analogy, and then SHE asked him, if he's going to equate "gay" and "fat" as stigmatizations, then does that mean he's going to quit stigmatizing fat people. so, yes, she "missed the point" of dan's post; she was making a separate but related point, and her subsequent post illustrated it more keenly. it's also easily imagined that she's observed dan's historic unease toward fat people, as we all have, and that's what fueled her "hello, i am fat" post.

(which, sorry, everyone in the universe has noticed, dan. the jig is up. go ahead and cry that you"re "just interested" in the obesity epidemic, but you sure are smug for being an innocent empirical student.)

b. i don't know that lindy was ever bragging about courageously standing up to her mean old oppressive boss--it seems to me that she just wanted to make the "you are the boss of me but not the doctor of me" joke. which was a quality fucking joke. worth it. also, dan is ssssort of her boss, and it stands to reason that he was probably her boss at one point over the years. regardless, i think folks have zeroed in on that line and attached more melodrama to it than she intended. which i guess is her ass--she's the one who said it--but i think it's probably safe to chill on that tip, kids.

c. i'm a former intern and freelancer, and i can corroborate that dan has always been unfailingly polite to me in person. he is not this way in his column, however--he often sacrifices kindness toward fellow humans for jokes/sensationalism/snark. which, hey, that's what sells his column, he's a businessman, it gets clicks, i understand. but he should understand that his readers aren't privileged to his in-person demeanor; all they know is what they read on the SLOG and in his column. and he's a total bitch a lot of the time.

d. WHY DO YOU CARE ABOUT THE HEALTH OF FAT PEOPLE, DAN. WHY WHY WHY. why? what makes you so deeply concerned about a group you don't belong to, so much that you find it's your place to lecture them? if someone writes you a letter saying, "i am fat and having XYZ sexual problems because of it," fine, you can care then. but i seriously doubt this happens on the reg, if ever. does it? i think you get more letters saying, "i gained weight and my partner isn't into my body anymore," et al, which has zero to do with their health. yes, obesity promotes health issues, absolutely, unquestionably, but it doesn't necessarily, and it's also totally off the table here, with regard to lindy and iowa. nobody asked you to worry about their health. you're doing it out of your own volition and acting like it's your job. and frankly, i seriously doubt that you sincerely care--i think it's a bullshit excuse to justify your thinly (and sometimes not-at-all) veiled disgust.

e. the overall nucleus of this shitstorm that you seem to be ignoring in order to save face here--and which is often ignored in the sport of Arguing on the Internet--is that these are human beings with feelings. so, yes, shut up. that's exactly right. leave them alone. their health risks and their muffin tops are not hurting you. people are overweight for a million different reasons--first and foremost because they're unhappy with their lives and they eat to comfort themselves--so have some fucking compassion and be kind to unhappy people, for godsake. whether they gained weight because they were unhappy or whether they've always been heavy and the vicious, superficial jackals of the world have made them unhappy, they're by and large already unhappy. and if they're not, leave them alone because they're happy and they fucking deserve to be, because they're human beings. they're not statistics, they're not cartoons. they're people, for christ's sake. what is wrong with you.

P.S.: ams_ has it at #35. thank you.
348
Actually it's been proven that morbidly obese (or even significantly overweight) people have trouble absorbing Vitamin D and are deficient in it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20850…
What happens when you are vitamin D deficient?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth…
There are also links between not getting enough vitamin d and being depressed.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/376918…

As it says in the last article, yes, obviously research is still needed, however it is a really interesting theory.

349
*more research
350
oops, i meant to say ". yes, obesity promotes health issues, absolutely, unquestionably, but it doesn't necessarily CAUSE THEM, and it's also totally off the table here, with regard to lindy and iowa."

meaning: being obese definitely increases your risk of health issues, but you don't necessarily have them just because you're obese.
351
Oh, I suppose I should add a comment here since I added one on Lindy's post.

In my view, Lindy wrote a post that was mainly about pain, but Dan read a post that was mainly about Dan.

To me, Dan is a powerful person and thinker and an inspiration. I'd love to see him be kinder when he talks about fat people. Michelle Obama is a perfect examplar: She is a problem-solver, acknowledging and working on the problem of obesity without stigmatizing obese humans.

I can't bring myself, like Dan, to regret Lindy's post. In fact, the idea of it *not* existing upsets me. Lindy's post helps hundreds of people simply feel better. It singlehandedly delivers health benefits. At the moment those health benefits are not being shared by Dan Savage. But they could be -- because nobody's actually demonizing anybody here.
352
great comments on the whole situation here: http://tworegularmen.blogspot.com/2011/0…

353
From the comments I've read, no one's arguing that obesity is free of health risks. No one's saying the health risks should never be discussed. It's the attitude that often comes with it.

I smoke. I've had plenty of people remind me that it's unhealthy. I've had plenty of people tell me it's a disgusting habit (I agree). I've never been called disgusting because of it. People don't shout out "Smoker!" from their cars when they're driving by. Last I heard, grade school kids don't use "you're momma's a smoker!" as a taunt.

There are a helluva lot of unhealthy behaviors in the world, but most of them don't come with the same stigma. I have a poor diet. Not sweets or chips, but lots of nutritionally-impaired t.v. dinners (maybe a notch above Styrofoam slathered in gravy). But no one has ever looked into my cart and said, "you shouldn't be eating that crap." In fact, no stranger has ever given me any sort of unsolicited dietary advice while we're waiting in the grocery store line. And yet people who are obese sometimes do receive that sort of treatment, frequently prefaced with "I'm only concerned about your health."
354
You go Dan!

There's nothing wrong with having an opinion and stating fact. some people just can't stand the truth.

By the way, "trying and failing" doesn't mean "saying you'll go on a diet but not doing it and saying you'll go to the gym and not going." It means "going on a diet and going to the gym and not seeing any improvements."
355
@344, you forgot to call Lindy "a bitch." I think that's the term the Dan Fans prefer here.

"Never apologize!" is a stunted way to live your life. I hope you weren't serious.
356
I had a lot to say about this before Dan's comment, and all I can say is that he's hit the nail on the head. Lindy is either stupid (doesn't understand a reductio ad absurdum argument) or evil (she knows the difference but doestn' care--she's trying to impugn Dan's reputation just the same). I wrote a blog post on the topic at: http://thinking-it-through.tumblr.com/
357
I agree with Dan. I admire Lindy, but I found her post to be oversensitive.

Of course, I recognize that like many other formerly "fat" people, I found that my weight was something I could change and control with a bit of effort and lifestyle changes. I don't have the experience of having struggled for years to loose weight and just not managed it. To me, what he says about obesity and loosing weight just makes sense.
358
Dan, I for one think you are 100% in the right here with regard to your defense of your comments and opinion that Lindy, though a smart women and someone you generally like, is perhaps being a bit touchy about this one subject only. She works at the Stranger - it's like being Jewish writer on South Park bashing everyone and having a blast and then quitting the moment Jews are the butt. Lindy needs to chill out and apologize for jumping the gun and doing something so unprofessional as to attack your coworker in a public forum and catch him by surprise (I'm sorry... WTF?!). He did a pretty good job defending himself (which he CLEARLY had no other choice but to do) while trying to be respectful of Lindy and her post (and her OBVIOUS issues with obesity) and I for one think he deserves accolades, not condemnation.

--Longtime reader
359
Dan, I for one think you are 100% in the right here with regard to your defense of your comments and opinion that Lindy, though a smart women and someone you generally like, is perhaps being a bit touchy about this one subject only. She works at the Stranger - it's like being Jewish writer on South Park bashing everyone and having a blast and then quitting the moment Jews are the butt. Lindy needs to chill out and apologize for jumping the gun and doing something so unprofessional as to attack your coworker in a public forum and catch him by surprise (I'm sorry... WTF?!). He did a pretty good job defending himself (which he CLEARLY had no other choice but to do) while trying to be respectful of Lindy and her post (and her OBVIOUS issues with obesity) and I for one think he deserves accolades, not condemnation.

--Longtime reader
360
I adore Lindy West and what she has added to the Stranger's writing pool. I adore Dan Savage and how he has shaped our community as editor of the Stranger.

I appreciate her post because I identified with it and that's a good thing. It made me smile. Job done. Also, it was a different point of view on the SLOG than I used to (and I read this darn thing every day). I intended to post originally that I appreciate Dan for his "stir the pot" posts to the slog on many topics, weight being one of them. Isn't that what he should be doing? Making us think and argue? But, as an important figure in our community, I adore him and I fear him. I fear that he will show up to a burlesque show I am in and write about it and how my body is not fun to watch (even if it was). I fear he will attend a roller derby bout and write about the girls and how their bodies and say nothing about the event or the sport. But I know these are just fears; they are my imagination. I know I am not that important or that Dan doesn't really dislike me or my art or my favorite sport. But somehow, over the years, I got the impression that I would rather have anyone BUT Dan comment on these things if they pertain to me or people I know. It may not be true but the impression I built over the years is that, should we ever meet, Dan would disregard me for my size. And it was nice to hear someone who works with him sorta felt the same way.

361
@355, no I don't think he should have to apologize. He didn't say anything wrong, and like I said he offends a lot of people. If you don't like it, go away.

I do apologize about being mean to Lindy, but I had just finished reading the posts and I was pissed. I just hate people not taking personal accoutantability for their actions and blaming someone else for their problems with themselves. I also hate that her inability to think about the post and previous comments of Dan critically made everybosy hate on Dan. There were people saying he should step down!! Really, because a sarcastic woman who should have great reading comprehension takes offense? She offends people all the time as well. Thinking you're overweight or being overweight doesn't give you a right to censor people. People need to get over themselves.
362
@hydroza: Just curious, does your admonition that Dan be "kind to unhappy people" apply to everyone, or just those who are offended when he posts something about weight? Because if it applies to everyone, I'm thinking he may have to cancel the Savage Love column.
363
Whoa. Somebody spelled "voila" correctly in an email. I don't want to tell you how many times I've seen people write "wa-laa", and how I've longed to cry over it. Seriously, that made my day.
364
@canuck: yes. he should not ridicule people out of the blue sky for their failings. it's totally needless. there are kind ways to give advice, and there are ways to be funny without shaming miserable people. i personally dislike children, like a whole lot, but i don't go around kicking little kids in the face.

is this news? 'cos i feel like this is pretty basic shit.

-hydrozOa
365
@291: I know. Like how sad it was for Bush when Kanye said he didn't care about black people. When there are accusations of bigotry, the most important thing is definitely how attacked the alleged bigot feels. Really, that should just stop all conversation, don't you think?
366
@361 said: "I just hate people not taking personal accoutantability for their actions and blaming someone else for their problems with themselves."

Dan is being blamed not for making anyone fat, but for allowing his disgust to seep through consistently when discussing fat people. Fat people are already self-conscious, ashamed, and attempting to deal with their weight. Pointing out the laws of thermodynamics is asinine and unhelpful, if indeed you or Dan intend to be supportive.

Dan thinks being overweight is a huge moral failing--I get it. You're both skinny and thus better than others. But Jared Diamond would spank you for such a lack of analysis. What's really causing the global epidemic of obesity? Everyone suddenly lacks self-discipline? Is moralizing about it going to motivate anyone?

I don't really think anyone except those who've struggled with obesity actually know what they're talking about here. Most of you just want to use this issue as a way to make yourself feel superior to those with weight problems.
367
Oh jeez, fat people, knock it off. I'm fat too - I'm 5'8" and 230 lbs - and I too have spent a lifetime doing the whole diet blah blah that women in our society do. And if someone like me wants you all to just calm the hell down and stop being so self righteous, then you know you need to hear it.
Lindy made a few good points, but her column wasn't some fat people manifesto. From the comments section, you'd have thought she'd died for our sins. For the record, I'm not ashamed of being the size I am, either. It's sure hard on my goddam knees, though, and I wish I had not gone on the three year binge that brought me here.
I'm never going to be a size two, but I sure as hell could be a size sixteen if I smartened up. Why should it be a sin to say so?
368
#357: "I don't have the experience of having struggled for years to loose (sic) weight and just not managed it. To me, what he says about obesity and loosing (sic) weight just makes sense."

To YOU. ExACTly. See, most fat people? In addition to already being ashamed? Have tried and tried to lose weight; have lost it and re-gained it. 95% of all successful dieters re-gain the weight back and MORE within five years. Do the fucking math, you fucking idiots, and understand that just because someone is fat doesn't mean you know ANYTHING else about how they eat, or how much they exercise. It's not a matter of "personal responsibility;" it's a matter of courtesy. Just because something is a certain way for YOU does not mean it is the same for EVERYONE. How is this difficult?

#346: "What I hear from Dan, because he's a sex columnist, is stuff about bodies, and the stuff Dan says about fat people's bodies is tinged with disgust. If a bunch of fat people say that to you, you might want to listen. "

Yes. This. LISTEN. Jesus.
369
A well-reasoned and constructed response.

LW seemed to be projecting and appears to have gone on the attack to justify some serious denial. I perceive Dan to be saying, "I don't give a shit if you are fat, but there's an awful lot of people in this country who are fat and an awful lot of consequences flow from that -- aesthetic, health, economic. Let's talk about that." Only some serious denial would lead a fat person to attack the soundness of Dan's contribution to the marketplace of ideas.

I come from a long line of seriously obese people, and as a former fatty myself, here's the deal: Don't eat like an idiot and exercise. No matter your weight, those to things make you healthier.

What really prompts me to comment, however, is that I cannot stand when people, as LW does in this case, attack the messenger, rather than the message. Nothing more transparent than the insecure arguing a position as a means to justify their denial in an attempt to resolve their cognitive dissonance. All of us have feet of clay, and arguing that you're perfect just the way you are and failing to acknowledge where you could use some work is a fool's errand, doomed from the start.

Thanks, Dan, and keep up the good work. Illegitimis non carborundum.

370
@ 363 It's spelled voilà, with an accent on the a.
371
Dan, I come here, read and enjoy posts about politics, sex, and urinals, and then out of nowhere, I'm assaulted by some fat-shaming bullshit. Maybe you know how that feels. You are watching a film, and out of nowhere a character does or says something homophobic. It's a painful shock to the system, and you try to let it roll over you, but you feel angry and ashamed anyway.

You say, I don't have to read it, but it's right there as I scroll through your posts. Fuck you and fuck your supposed concern about fat people's health. Whenever I read you complaining about fat people, I don't feel disgusted with them, I feel disgusted with you. I agree with your social and political commentary, but when it comes to fat people you are a dick, standing on imaginary moral high ground and looking down on people who are struggling. There would be a billion-dollar diet industry if people weren't *trying*.
372
http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/35…
The epidemiology of overweight and obesity: public health crisis or moral panic?
373
Dan, I have a hard time reading this blog. I come here, read and enjoy posts about politics, sex, and urinals, and then out of nowhere, I'm assaulted by some fat-shaming bullshit. You say, I don;t have to read it, but it's right there as I scroll through your posts. Fuck you and fuck your supposed concern about fat people's health. Your standing on your moral high ground of thinness and looking down on a lot of people who are struggling.
374
The epidemiology of overweight and obesi…

(I guess I did that wrong the first time)
375
@myself, 364:

you know, i take that back. the kicking-kids-in-the-face thing is a bad analogy. i was barking up the "taking candy from a baby" tree, but it's not quite right. also, i shouldn't have said "ridiculing people for their failings," because being fat is only subjectively a failing.

i think the smoking analogy is pretty airtight. i have several close friends who smoke. i personally find it repulsive, but i'm not going to sit there and tell them about it. they know the health risks, and they don't enjoy being addicted to something that makes them sick. they fucking hate it. they smoke because they're because they're addicted to nicotine, and because they're stressed out about shit and it makes them feel better momentarily. they want to quit, but it's really fucking hard, and they don't know how.

i love my friends, and i don't want to make them even unhappier by bitching to them about how they're headed for early graves. that's not going to make them quit--it's just going to stress them out more--and unless i'm expected to live with them and/or kiss them, it's not ultimately any of my business.

yeah, i wish they would quit, and so do they, because they are not morons, so the best thing i can do is be supportive if and when they want to make a change. to hassle them about it is disrespectful and unkind. aka a total dick move.
376
Well, this is so far down that no one is going to read it. But I just needed to say - GO DAN!

The reason your advice is so valuable is that it's never feel-good platitudes. You tell the truth, even when the truth is tough to hear for some people.

Myself, I'm not terribly skinny. But you know what? That's my decision. I've kinda balanced out the negative aspects of being not-so-fit and 'weighed' them against the misery of dieting. I feel that I'm at a happy medium, for me.

However, to deny that MORE people would find me attractive if I were thinner, or to deny that I would be healthier at a lower weight, or if I ate less, would be just that - denial.

However, I like food, and it's not like no one finds me attractive, so I'm fine with that. I don't need some "fat acceptance" person giving me some speech to puff me up, either. I take responsibility for myself and my own body.

So I've never found anything Dan has said to be insulting or shaming - because I'm not ashamed of myself. I don't mind hearing the truth.

The fact is, that societies are always going to find the unusual and exceptional attractive. When being plump was a rare sign of wealth and access to luxury, Rubenesque figures were considered attractive. Now that the average person is heavy, the exceptionally thin figure is considered to be attractive by many people. That's just the way it is, and if a person lets that make them depressed and unhappy - well, all I can say is, there's a lot more serious things out there in the world to get depressed about if you insist on being depressed.
377
@351: In my view, Lindy wrote a post that was mainly about pain, but Dan read a post that was mainly about Dan.

Well said, Jen.
378
@ 376 - As far as I'm concerned, you're the model of fat acceptance - as it should be, not as it is defined nowadays by people who essentially don't accept themselves...
379
@372
Thank you!!! This is EXACTLY the sort of article I wish Dan would read and discuss if he wants to wade into the "obesity epidemic" discussion.

I personally am hoping to go to grad school for medical anthropology and specialize in this exact topic. "Obesity" is such a fascinating, complex issue; it's exactly the sort of topic medical anthropology was invented for. I wish more people would take the time to read these sort of articles, instead of ab nauseum repeating a one page pop-medical article they read in a fitness magazine.
380
@351, 377, many others: it is great that Lindy is overcoming her pain. However, it will be better when she can overcome her pain without attacking others; when she truly stops being defensive. This does not AT ALL negate the distance she's come so far, and indeed she is most of the way there. We all go through 'hater' phases when we come to terms with things we used not to like about ourselves; some feminists go through a man-hating phase, some fat people go through a skinny-people-hating phase, some people of color go through a white-people-hating phase, some gays through an opposite-gender- or straight-hating phase, etc. etc. And all the while, we tend to see some attacks that are not really attacks. Sometimes when we feel bad about something, it's because we over-interpret our own pain, not because someone was being cruel. Merely being reminded that you are overweight and that there are a couple of people out there who don't like overweight people (and disregarding the plethora of people who like overweight people or don't give a fuck) is not an attack. In time those reactions will fade, once you're more like 98% comfortable with yourself rather than 75%. I congratulate Lindy with how far she's come, and she's making a great stand; I hope her positive message will reach other people not happy with their appearance, but not the more negative one. Dan, sorry you are the straw man in all of this; it is a result of your fame and nothing more. Obama made a good quote to Bill O'Reiley recently, he said that people who attack you don't know you. That's where you are, unfortunately. But by all means keep qualifying your statements to the best of your ability so it's clear you don't hate fat people just because you don't find them attractive (as if you found any women attractive!!). You just have to keep reassuring people who are, as a group (though not all of them), insecure at this point and place in time.
381
Yeah, 376, that's kinda my feeling, too - I don't find what Dan says to be fat-shaming, because I'm fat, and when I read it I'm not ashamed.

I know I'm fat, and I know why. I know that to some extent it's genetic, so why be ashamed of that, and to some extent it's because of my choices. My choices that I've made, and which I own - so why be ashamed of that?

Diet and exercise work differently for different people, sure. Lots of people are overweight at a level of diet and exercise that would have another person be normal. But NOBODY is *obese*, without making choices that put them there. So why not just own up to it, and stop hiding behind "society's messages"? You can say "Yeah, I'd rather eat pie than broccoli, and I'm willing to pay the price". Jeez, tell the truth and shame the devil.
382
"Dan, I come here, read and enjoy posts about politics, sex, and urinals, and then out of nowhere, I'm assaulted by some fat-shaming bullshit."
--Um, he's not fat-shaming. He's linking to articles and studies about the obesity epidemic. If obesity "facts" and "studies" offends you than that's not Dan's fault. Sounds like you have a beef with reality.
"You are watching a film, and out of nowhere a character does or says something homophobic. It's a painful shock to the system, and you try to let it roll over you, but you feel angry and ashamed anyway."
--Irrelevant. Dan hasn't said anything that's...uh, lipid-phobic/fat-phobic, what have you. He's said it's unhealthy though...which is a fact...which is maybe something you're having an issue with?
"but when it comes to fat people you are a dick, standing on imaginary moral high ground and looking down on people who are struggling"
--How? Where in his posts does he ridicule fat people for trying?
"There would be a billion-dollar diet industry if people weren't *trying*."
--I'm going to guess that you meant "there wouldn't be a billion-dollar diet industry if people weren't 'trying'. Anyways, obviously this diet industry isn't the answer for America's obesity epidemic. People always looking for quick fixes, that magical pill, or that newly discovered plant from Africa or berry from Brazil to solve their weight problems instead of exercising and eating right. That's why the diet industry exists.
383
You know, Lindy didn't misread your post. She understood that you were saying that it would be ridiculous to ban fat marriage, even though all the same arguments apply, and argued that this was a tacit admission that fat people face many of the same social stigmas that gay people do (although, of course, they are still allowed to marry). So, she reasoned, if you were admitting that, then did that mean you would stop saying things that she, as a fat person, finds hurtful?

Dan, I actually think you are mostly in the right here; in fact, your compassionate answers to readers with weight problems have actually made me feel better about myself, while also motivating me to work on my own weight problems and body issues. And I've never been offended by anything you've written. That being said, I can also see where Lindy is coming from. The issue isn't whether or not being obese is bad for you, it's that people feel the need to point this out constantly without even the slightest provocation. It's also not about whether or not eating right and exercising is all that most people need to do to get their weight off (because, yes, it often helps) -- it's that you assume that the person you're telling this to is one of those people who just hasn't tried it yet. (Fat acceptance people generalize this to "assuming that most fat people haven't tried it"; I think there's a problem here where there are many communities with people who have all tried it and failed, and many where people haven't tried it, and the former get upset when you conflate them with the latter.) Anyway, overall, yes, you are right, but the way you phrase it makes you come across as being really patronizing, and people resent being patronized and talked down to. (To preempt the inevitable answer to this, even though I don't think you'd actually argue this: yes, they *could* just not read your column or anything you write, but if they enjoy your column and otherwise think that you have a great attitude towards the whole controversy, is it really fair to tell them to just stop reading? Especially since your column is nominally about a completely different subject, and the rhetoric they object to tends to be thrown in without warning.)

One of the earlier commenters in this thread -- Canuck, I think? -- illustrates this patronizing attitude very well: she compares it (pointing out the health risks of being obese) to how she didn't let her kids drink soda, etc. Guess what, lady, when you do it to people who are not your kids, it doesn't matter how well-intentioned it is -- it boils down to the fact that you are, by your own admission, treating them like children. That dynamic is avoidable if it's someone you know *extremely* well and you choose your words carefully, but other than that, it's always going to come across badly.

Not that anyone will read this, since it's like the 400th comment and I'm unregistered and have a terrible parentheses fetish. But, no one else seemed to be saying it, so...yeah.
384
@ 372, 379 - I make a stopover in an American airport once or twice a year, and quite frankly, it's striking to me how many people I see there (proportionally) whose belly touches their knees - staff and travellers, so obviously not only poor people. I've visited around 30 countries, and that's unique to the States. The proportion of bearish types, i.e. big strong guys with a belly, is also unequalled in any country I know.

I spend most of my time in Mexico, the second country in the world in obesity statistics, and although you see a whole lot of roundish people, most of the (not very many) ones I've met who were seriously obese had spent many years in the States.

So maybe it's only the really fat people who are getting fatter, as this study seems to say, but any non-American who has eyes to see and money to travel (or who works in the tourist industry) would tell you the same thing: Americans are huge. In general. They may not be the only ones, but they are the hugest on average. I'd say this studies' data is lacking.

I had this short bearish friend from NY who was hot as hell at around 220 pounds. But then he ballooned by about 80-100 pounds in one year, and he looked like a black Michelin man. What was his reaction? He started bitching that the people from the countries he visited were abnormally thin. Until his doctor told him to lose the weight for health reasons, that is.

Denial didn't help his heart, losing weight did.
385
jesus christ.
FAT is NOT FIT!
you need not justify yourself, dan, and lindy was off-base in her attack of you- me thinks the lady doth protest too much.
anyway - i feel for those people for whom food is an addiction, as proven by MRI scans, and i am not speaking about these people. but give me a BREAK - you are FAT because you EAT TOO MUCH. fine, embrace the fat, that's awesome, but don't pretend that it's healthy, attractive or that you don't want to "deprive" yourself. I'm thin and fit and eat chocolate everyday, go out at least 3x weekly to dinner and drinks and don't give a hoot about calories, but i work out and my status quo is to eat healthy by packing my lunch everyday and getting off my ass. not spending hours redirecting my lameness towards dan savage.
386
@384
You might be noticing it because you are primed to notice it: international media is constantly harping on Americans as being the fattest in the world, and so you are prepared to find evidence to fit your previous knowledge (that's human nature.)

It's also possible you see all these fat Americans in airports because Americans are, stereotypically speaking, wealthier than most other countries. The average American can afford to travel. In other countries, perhaps it is only the richest who are traveling, and also the richest who are working out, so you're not seeing an accurate "average" representation.

Lastly, while individual observation and experience is great, it's not scientific. Studies DO suggest Americans are a fatter country, but we are not the fattest, and we are not even the fattest of the industrial countries by a large margin (http://www.expatify.com/news/the-worlds-….)

Your observations are your observations but they are not proof of fact. And even if your observations WERE true, and Americans were by far the fattest of the world AND far outweighing other nations by a heavy margin, what would it prove?
387
Dan, I'm pretty much entirely with you on this one. Good for Lindy re: shamedeath, but she got a lot wrong in her post. Other commenters have already said it better than I have, so I'll just send you my kudos, and this one caveat: comparing being fat and being on meth was probably a bad call, from a winning-fights-on-the-internet standpoint.

Finally: so glad those pants went out of style.
388
This is exhausting. I really hope you guys kiss and make up soon, and get back to writing great snarky sex columns and great snarky movie reviews.
389
Dan, I don't really think you could be that bigoted against fat people, since you're the main reason why I can really, fully, joyfully accept my love of them. I fantasize about them, I'm so lucky to have a great and sexy relationsip with one, and, while I used to think i would feel embarrassed being a relatively in-shape guy with a large man with his arm over my shoulders, because of you I have *no* compunction walking down the street like that now. Thank you for all you do to help fat people be more accepted!
390
I think fat people touch a nerve with Dan and Dan touches a nerve with fat people. Dan contributes to the self-loathing that is already there...and it hurts. And it all goes back to childhood...
391
I will agree that I found Lindy's piece to be about pain, and a common struggle for women (and many men) to accept their individual beauty. I found it touching and I deeply respect Lindy for putting herself out there. And, my heart desires to reflect back affirmation, respect, and encouragement with a hearty "Go, Lindy, go!" And, to acknowledge the pain in hopes that by coming to light it can begin to heal.

I appreciated Dan's rebuttal, but I tend to rely on my personal experience with a person, so I didn't require it. He's beautifully and obnoxiously human as the rest of us are, and like the rest of us I think he could choose his words more wisely in some instances... well I know I certainly should. But, I'm, also, prepared to accept him as he comes, and to decide if he is addressing and/or ranting in general towards me before becoming wounded by his words, as the price of admission. It took me a few months to comprehend that I didn't have to own what he was saying, and if it didn't match up I could both "listen" and dismiss it as his opinion. Hopefully, most people are a quicker study or less tenderhearted than I tend to be!

Lastly, perhaps, it is my hopeful wish, or the fact that he's always been kind, generous, and compassionate in all of our personal interactions that is playing a part, but inside this post I 'hear' someone cheering a hurting co-worker/associate/friend on? And, in my glass half-full view, I hope that I'm not imagining it and that Lindy's is hearing it.

@ Everyone,
Thank you for your kind wishes, thoughts, hugs, and prayers with regard to my health. Time will tell, but no matter what know that you are loved. And, I appreciate your kindness.

@ Matt,
I'm crossing my fingers and sending good thoughts towards you and your's.

Ps. I hope this isn't a double post, Slog and I are having issues.
392
To those who are flaming Dan over his "thin privilege" or "moral high ground of thinness", get fucking real.

If he has any privilege or moral high ground, it's because he *was* fat and *now* he's thin. He knows what it takes to get to where he is today. And if you look at him, especially in a T-shirt, you'll come to immediately recognize just how much time he spends in a gym. It's a lot. And I'll bet that he *has* to spend that much time in the gym just to keep the weight off. He knows it's hard work. He knows it takes a lot of time away from his family. And he knows that it's worth the effort, because he knows what happens when he doesn't keep it up. For him, the struggle is constant.

I was one of those people that bought into the bullshit that some people are just at their body's genetically predisposed weight, and there's nothing you can do about it. After all, my whole life I've been *underweight* in spite of my best efforts. Then my wife decided that enough was enough and that she was going to do whatever was necessary to lose the large amount of excess weight she was carrying around, regardless of the cost to wallet and time. She went to the nearest Fitness World and got a personal trainer three months ago. She's already lost over 40 lbs. But best of all, she can keep up with me when we go out for a walk, and that benefit was realized within two weeks.

Personal trainers don't do anything magical. They will tell you what you should eat (google "Canada food guide"), and how you should exercise (Google "workout routines"), but most importantly, they won't believe your bullshit: The lies you tell yourself to preserve your ego or make you think you don't have to work harder than you already are, or eat better than you think you are.

Dan is an expert at seeing people's bullshit for what it is. That's why he's so good at what he does.
393
My two cents:

1) Dan is right. Obesity is unhealthy. I'm not talking about healthy, beautiful curves (even if Dan finds those rolls of fat gross, I think curvy women are hot!). You know the people I'm talking about. The ones who have trouble walking more than a few blocks without getting out of breath. It's great to love your body for how it looks but it's also important to love your body for what it can do. Most people can lose some amount of weight (those minor few with thyroid problems excepted) but most can't lose the amount that they want. They won't become sticks (and thank goodness!) because people's bodies do have different metabolisms and bone structures. It IS a lot harder for some people to lose weight. Also, fuck diet fads. Eat less and try to eat some veggies every day is my, admittedly obvious, advice. And walk more.

2) Lindy is right. Fat prejudice exists in almost everyone. Dan's problem isn't that he's prejudiced. It's that he won't admit it and work against it. I think his is of the "ewww" variety; his views are in the right place but he has kneejerk disgust for fatness. Every fat person I've ever met has tried dieting and had to get to a place of loving their body (even if they did become work-out maniacs and lose a bit of weight). I myself have put on a bit (about 10 pounds in the last 10 years) and have noticed how differently I'm treated. In fact, due to a bout of food poisoning, and subsequent avoiding of a lot of food, I lost 4 pounds in one week. One of my girlfriend's relatives crowed about how much better I looked. I appreciated the compliment but it's crazy the difference 4 pounds can make in how you're treated. People are judgmental about me being not skinny, even though I'm within my BMI range. So, I imagine it's a lot worse to be fat.

To sum: I think Lindy's right that shame doesn't help and that it's harder for some people to lose weight but I agree with Dan that grossly overweight people should lose some weight. (Lindy doesn't seem grossly overweight) And I think it's important that we change our view of food. I, personally, eat whatever I want but I eat slowly and try to stop when I'm full.

Sorry for the superlong post.
394
Dan, I love you more than I love any other random famous person that I do not personally know, but unfortunately, in this case, you are simply wrong. And Lindy is simply, beautifully right. When you talk about fat -- fat people, fat on people, muffin tops, fat populations, fat partners of your letter writers, there is a whiff of disgust in your voice. This is not uncommon. I have heard this whiff of disgust in the voices of actual fat people, when discussing other fat people, or even themselves. Just listen to Kirstie Alley confessing her sins to Oprah; you will hear all about how they disgust themselves.

I can't believe I have to say this to you, of all people, but how people comport themselves in their daily lives, how they represent themselves, how they treat and view their bodies, what they put in their mouths, what they enjoy or don't enjoy without hurting others, that does not effect you, is not for you to be disgusted by. Just as being gay, who you love or don't love, what you choose to do with your body, how you represent yourself, whether or not you are in other's faces, is no one's business, and no one else's to judge. Being fat, like being gay, is not a choice, because if it was WHO WOULD CHOOSE IT? Who would choose to feel like an outsider, an offense, who would choose to limit their sexual partners, the clothing they can wear, their energy and mobility?

Like so many above have said, your response was flailing, weak, uncharacteristically incomprehensible because it was uncharacteristally WRONG. You've taught a lot of people a lot about people, but this? You need to relearn.
395
@ 386 - My post is in fact about denial. The scientific article I was discussing seems to have been made specifically in order to reassure Americans that the situation is not so bad. Opening one's eyes and not looking for quick excuses reveals that it is.

I don't see fat Americans because I'm "primed" to see them. That's preposterous. Didn't you get the line: "it's striking to me how many people I see there (proportionally) whose belly touches their knees."

Why do you think I used the word "striking"? And didn't you notice the specific description "whose BELLY touches their KNEES"? You just don't see that anywhere else, not in those proportions. Anyhone who's travelled can attest to that (except, of course, if their only travel destination is American Samoa).

But please, do tell me what does your argument to the effect that "It's also possible you see all these fat Americans in airports because Americans are, stereotypically speaking, wealthier than most other countries. The average American can afford to travel" prove, other than that the average American is fatter than people from most other nations?

My observations indeed relate to STAFF and TRAVELLERS alike in American airports. I don't think the 20-year old, 300 pound guy who sold me a sandwich the last time (at O'Hare) was one of those Americans who travel a lot.

And your perception of "other countries" is amusingly naive. In many European countries, people get 4 to 5 weeks paid holidays, and a lot of people travel a lot. They also have much better social protections in general, so even working-class people can afford to travel. I spent 5 years in Europe, on minimum salary, and did I ever travel!

With that line of defense, though, you mostly show that you can't even read properly ("I've visited around 30 countries"). I didn't say I observed rich people who travel: I said that I've observed them in their own country. Where you can see people of every class, not just the rich.

That said, it's supposed to be poor people who suffer most from this obesity epidemic in the States, for reasons discussed here and in many earlier comments threads and numerous papers and newspaper articles etc. My observations were meant to underline that it appears to be people from every race and every social class who are fat-to-obese in the States. So there's only so much that these economical/societal explanations can actually explain.

Finally, the article you give the link to says this:
"Well, the U.S.A. doesn’t top the list, but it’s close, and it falls behind only a small islands nation and one of its own unincorporated territories." (And if you find anything in the statistics it contains that makes you feel better, well... that's sad.)

So thanks for proving my point about denial.

The funny thing about this is that I am a proud chubby chaser, as I've said earlier. I like big guys, I really do. But I like those who accept themselves and don't try to deny their responsibilities much better than the whiny, immature, it's-not-my-fault crowd who sound like 9-year olds who just got caught stealing cookies from the jar ("He made me do it!"). Because that's what denial tells us about people: how immature they are.
396
@368 Right, that's my point, I don't have that experience, so it is hard for me to understand what it must be like. However, Dan and I and many others do have valid experiences of our own, in which obesity was fought and seemingly beaten. It seems pretty natural that we'd take an interest in the efforts of healthcare and governments to prevent or reduce obesity rates.

We also have the right to decide what we find unattractive... which in Dan's case includes vaginas and rolls of fat. Despite my weight loss, I possess both and am somehow not offended by the realization that he will never sleep with me, for reasons I have no control over.

PS: Sorry about the lose/loose thing. I'm appropriately ashamed, horrified and disgusted by my grammar.
397
Physics! Laws of Thermodynamics! Conservation of Mass!

...Am I a certified hater of everyone with a weight issue now?
398
Rolls of exposed flesh ARE, objectively, unsightly. Christ on a crutch some of you people are deluded. I guess if you spout bullshit long enough you can actually start to believe it.
399
Dan does does not hate fat people. Some folks just need to blame someone else for their own self loathing and feelings of inadequacy.
400
243 and 265 for the win.

Really, really not impressed with the gutless Stranger staffers or Ms. West's dishonest diatribe (sure doesn't sound to me like she's accepted her body). Nor am I impressed with the stupid people in this thread who keep reading the "fat marriage" thing literally (it was a "modest proposal", you idiots) or Dan's brother's comment as saying anything other than "generalizing from your own personal experience is dangerous and can cut both ways".

Shame, by the way, can be a very effective motivator to change - it's how motherfuckers sometimes shape up after being dumped. And that's one difference between gay people and fat people: gay people can't help being gay. Like it or not, most - not all, but most - fat people can choose to be less fat, or they can genuinely choose to accept things as they are, which clearly most of the whiners here have not. Crying that it's hard really doesn't earn you much sympathy when you're going on about greasy hamburgers and how delicious they are. There's a reason why there are a lot of overweight Americans, and there's a reason why there aren't many overweight vegans.

Which reminds me - can't we get the self-righteous vegans to fight the indignant fat "accepters " and get this space back for questions about puke fetishes, adult diapers, open relationships, and coming out stories?
401
@ 394 - "Being fat, like being gay, is not a choice"

Please don't insult my intelligence. There are things you can do to stop being fat. You may try as much as you want, but there's nothing you can do to stop being gay.

402
@394 well said.
403
@342 David Schmader: I thought you guys were all about "the discussion"...just not for everyone? You had to point it out?
404
My problem with comparing fat phobia to homophobia:

Sure, everyone is somewhere on a sexual-orientation continuum. But homophobes largely don't care whether you're a Kinsey 6 or a Kinsey 2.5. Either you're a guy who sucks dick or you're not.

The fatness continuum, though, is relevant to everyone. For someone with low body fat, at most a couple percent of their dating pool is going to reject them because they're not fat enough. At the other end, someone who weighs 700 pounds is going to be dismissed as an object of sexual desire by nearly everyone; few chasers won't draw the line at someone who can't leave the house without an exterior wall being removed. All other factors aside, every extra pound a persons carries puts him or her farther along that continuum in the direction of having fewer potential "takers".

So, Lindy, you feel good about yourself, and that's great; you should. But at what point does your own ewww factor kick in when it comes to others? How interested, say, would you be in Channing Tatum's package if you had to hoist his pannicula out of the way to get a clear shot at it?

Yeah, thought so.
405
I don't understand why the majority of people are supposed to feel guilty for finding a particular body type attractive. That's evolution speaking, people. If you're fat AND a crazy christian, fine. Maybe god wants fatties to rule. Otherwise, perhaps all your whining about being left out of the cool club is because you know you represent an unfit (both definitions) incarnation of the species. Enjoy your twinkies and die off.
406
@401 "Please don't insult my intelligence. There are things you can do to stop being fat. You may try as much as you want, but there's nothing you can do to stop being gay. "

There are things some people can do, to be less fat, but very many truly fat people can never get themselves down into a "normal" BMI, no matter how hard they try. But that is beside the point. It is not the responsibility of others to fit your idea of how they should look. It is not every woman's most important job to be attractive. It is not every fat person's job to make sure you are never made uncomfortable by their presence.

Of course, if you just looked at things a little differently, you might not give a crap whether the person standing in front of you at the DMV weighs 120 or 320 (or was disabled or a transperson), but I guess that is too much to ask.
407
Interesting that Dan mentions being a fat kid. It makes sense - bullies tend to pick on people who are like themselves. It's more than a little unfair to throw that shit on fat kids though. It also plays into a terrible stereotype about gay people that, as a gay dude, really makes me mad: that we're assholes to anyone who isn't prettier than us.

I've been a huge fan of Dan's for years, and love everything he's done through It Gets Better. I mention him to people as this awesome sex columnist who is fucking hilarious but is weirdly obsessed with fat people. Not kidding.

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