I liked the part in your response where you said, "DTMFA."
It seem sadistic to dress Harry in an appropriate outfit, but I like Canuck's query as to what I would wear. Something like this?…

Certainly not this:…

If he did well I do have some extra merit badges to pin on:……
@34 read 43. He's a MF because his response to her stating that she is unhappy and unsatisfied is for him to tell her that she shouldn't have the feelings or desires that she has. To respond to somebody's emotions and drives by stating that they are wrong to have them is a MF move. You may have bad actions, but your feelings aren't wrong. And people who tell you that are trying to make you feel broken. Also, he doesn't really care that she is unhappy and unsatisfied as long as he gets what he wants, which is lack of sex. He has unilaterally stated the terms, is aware that they hurt her, and doesn't care. Maybe it's what he needs, but then he still shouldn't be telling her she's broken for not being compatible with her needs. He should simply state honestly what his needs and desires are, and if she's a bad fit let her find someone else and let him find someone else. Instead, he's trying to ruin her self esteem by claiming their lack of compatibility is an inherent flaw in her. MF needs DA.
@50: "Thank you!"

Fuck off, the both of you, who would get a poor woman trapped in a marriage with kids so she can be as miserable and mismatched as either of you.
@104 - seriously, it's like you can't read. Both 40& 50 understand that their lives are lessons in what not to do if you can avoid it. But they can't imagine leaving their wives, and would like advice on how to suck it up and live with it. How you imagined that they would wish this on someone else, I have no idea.
@40, is your wife aware you'd like the situation to be different? Have you seen a marriage counselor? Because it would seem to me in a loving and supportive relationship the less libidinous partner - barring any physical problems - would be willing to do a little fucking and put some effort into it because they know it makes the person they love happy. And I don't think anyone on this particular blog is going to suggest a guy is a pig for wanting more - is that what your wife tells you? Dude, see a couples therapist. Because eventually your love for your withholding wife is going to turn to resentment and things will be much harder to fix then. And if you've already seen a couples therapist and still are unhappy in your marriage but don't want to leave, get your own therapist and try a different couples therapist. At the very minimum, you do this for the sake of your kids - and I say this as the child of an unhappy marriage.

But these people aren't married yet and sex is clearly important to the LW, while her significant other has been up front about the fact that he doesn't really care, so yes this is an obvious DTMFA situation.
I'm not sure I quite got that, Dan. Could you please repeat your advice again with less sugar-coating this time?

Seriously though, I'm relatively new to this column/blog, and I'm bewildered by the sheer amount of people claiming to be in sexless marriages with "wonderful partners".
He might indeed be a wonderful person, I would not know enough to say, but a blind drunk should be able to see that he is not, for you at least, a "wonderful partner to share life with".

I guess I am quite young and inexperienced in such matters, but doesn't it seem strange that we put so much time and energy into trying to have the best sex possible, yet somehow think it's normal to stay with someone who is not (or not interested in becoming) a compatible sex partner? Do people genuinely believe love conquers all?
Love Dan Savage !!
Okay, I'm back now. I just got to @86.

EricaP is one of the very few great women that I have had the privilege to speak to. The help she has given me literally saved my life. She is intelligent, caring, persistent, loving, sexy, classy, nurturing, beautiful, loyal, funny, wise, artistic, responsible, faithful, strong, and although I've never met her in person I have absolutely no doubt that she is unbelievably great in bed.

Elizabeth Bennet: "I am no longer surprised at your knowing only six accomplished women. I rather wonder now at your knowing any."
EricaP, that subtle black outfit would be just the ticket! And yes, he should be dressed like an Eagle Scout, with a sash for those completely fabulous badges!

seandr, from what I've heard, if someone's really sorry, their outfit includes kneepads...

@107 The mismatched libidos develop over time, that's what a lot of the people on these threads have experienced, that ten years into a marriage with multiple children, the sex tapers off, and the friendship/shared experiences/life with kids is important enough that it doesn't seem worth breaking up the marriage. I think the problem is that simmering resentment JrzWrld@106 mentions can really eat away at the overall health of the relationship. And about the "love conquering all"...that hasn't been the case for me, anyway. I don't think my husband would feel very loving toward me if I were constantly rejecting him, it all seems to go hand in hand, but that's just my marriage.
@40 "Dan would probably say dtmf to me too"

You new to reading Dan's column?

Dan's advice to you would most likely be to open up the marriage or, barring that, cheat. He would most likely preface that advice with, "If you didn't have kids, I would tell you to DTMFA....."

He wouldn't just give you permission to cheat. He'd tell you that you owe it to your marriage and family. He'd tell you that your best chance to keep the wife and family that you want so desperately to keep is to cheat. He might just tell you that you owe it to your family.

Read the archives. You'll see.
@109 continued

..., kinky, adventurous, forgiving, a good wife, a good mother, a good daughter, a good friend, tolerant, open minded, soulful, articulate, insightful, direct, bold, heroic, honest, kind, polite, stylish, generous, and hardworking. No doubt I'll think of more but I think that's enough to nullify @86 both above and in any future version that might have the impertinence to appear.
I'd only add, "Tell him to ask his doctor if he has a low-testosterone hormone imbalance," but yes, after that.
To me there's no debate to be had about whether or not the dude in question is asexual, disenchanted with her, closeted, or whatever other reason for his lack of interest in having sex with his girlfriend.

What matters is that he's being a cruel asshole to someone he claims to love--rejecting her, making her beg, using her when it suits his occasional whim, and then slut shaming her by making his ongoing rejection and selfishness her fault. I couldn't give a good goddamn what the underlying reason is, the most important point is that she shouldn't be in this inherently abusive relationship--this is slow psychological torture, not love.

If someone doesn't want to fuck you, turns that lack of desire around on you by painting you as deviant, and shows no long term concern about your sexual well-being, it's not just DTMFA x 1729, it's GTFO x 1729.

Don't subject yourself to this humiliation and cruelty. Please. And dissecting his potential hangups just contributes to that humiliation and cruelty. It's not your business what his hangup is because he's wounding you to conceal it from even himself. GET. THE. FUCK. OUT.

But Dan, tell us how you really feel! Stop holding back!
@110 Canuck

You put that very well. I would say that if you both love each other then love may indeed conquer all.

Rejection can happen only if you ask for something. The longer two people are together the better they should be at understanding each other's feelings. To refuse to "see" your spouse and to continue to ask for that which you should know you aren't going to get is immature whining. Instead ask yourself how you got where you are and whether there are things that can be changed to make you both happier. Dwelling on the fact that there is a lack of sexual fulfillment will not produce more sex.

In my case I started by confronting a profound problem within myself. Having done that I am looking to my wife to see if she will rise to the occassion and do the same. She has some real insecurities that she may or may not be able to master. We'll see. I accept that I may not be able to stay married but I will do everything in my power to try. Know your partner's limitations and sensitivities and you will know how and at what pace you can push for change.
@111: Is it my imagination, or do I detect a certain note of acid disapproval in your comment?
@110: I'm adding my vote for the subtle black outfit. I'm sure EricaP will look both stunning (and forgiving!) in it as Mr. Lime, whose post made me laugh and laugh, grovels before her. But seriously, so much good advice here from all the usual suspects.
@116:Jenesasquatch, having never addressed you directly before, I feel a little shy saying so, but judging form your posts, you seem an admirable, clear sighted human being, and your wife, family and friends are lucky to have you in their lives. I feel it most likely safe to say, that we here on slog, are all pulling for you. Maybe even Period Troll!
I do think that love can conquer all. But, that love that conquers all is a choice, I think the Greek word for it is 'agape'. It is active, working and humbling form of love. All parties must be actively working and choosing to develop in themselves the means to meet the other's need. It's the love that says "How did we get here? We both need to change inorder to go forward." It's a courageous love that requires strength and determination.

In the case of the LW, I don't read a willingness on the BF's part to make changes within himself or to work with her. And, I firmly believe that we can only work on improving ourself, we can't change others. And, we can't inspire or encourage others to change if they aren't committed to choosing how to meet us, that active form of love isn't there.

Just my $0.02.
jenesasquatch, you're right, whining about the lack of sex won't change things, but please don't sell yourself short. It sounds like your wife has certain priorities (work, school) that she puts ahead of you, and you could, perhaps, draw the comparison that just as a healthy sex life makes you feel "whole," her need to work so hard is what makes her feel "whole," and that essentially saying no to the sexual part of your relationship would be like you asking her to drop out of grad school. That would be unfair, because it's obviously something that's important to her. Maybe that analogy is a stretch, but sometimes that sort of thing helps me to put things into perspective. And forgive my armchair psychology here, but in my limited experience, people who are workaholics usually do that out of a need to prove something, or because they derive their self-worth through the accolades they get at their job. Sometimes circumstances dictate long hours (medical intern, new lawyer), but you've said if she weren't in grad school, she'd just be working longer hours. Again, forgive my nosiness, but you've said you've worked on things within yourself, on issues you had, and you are hoping she'll meet you there, and work on her issues, presumably? I don't think it's possible to change a person's inherent personality (a Type A workaholic will never become a mellow Type B sofa sitter) but it's helpful to look at the underlying reasons why she feels such a need to prove herself. Or am I just completely stating the obvious, and this is something you're already doing? My own marriage has had its ups and downs, as they all do, and I'm glad I haven't bailed at the first sign of trouble, because things have had a tendency to work themselves out...but if they weren't, if all the talking and effort still weren't producing results? I wouldn't stay in it, no one should have to live in unhappiness for an unlimited amount of time. And the funny thing is, when you've openly talked about this, I think it makes things better, because both people know their marriage isn't written in stone, they can't just act badly toward each other with no repercussions.
And not to be a fly in the ointment here, but it sounds like you do a lot to facilitate your wife's work life and grad school/study hours--I was a stay home mum for 20 years, so I know the kind of work you're doing--don't forget that your needs are as important as her needs.
117 No. Yes. Lemme 'splain.

40 was upset with Dan because of what he imagined Dan would tell him to do...DTMFA. Then 40 proposed some "better advice" that was just a really weak, watered down version of what Dan would, in all likelihood, actually advise him to do.

Does my tone make more sense to you, now?
What a nice way to start the morning! Thanks, jenesasquatch, that's amazing, I'm going to print that list out and keep it for when I'm feeling blue :-) And thanks everyone for sharing your experiences and great advice this morning - Hugs!
@118 Lissa

Thank you. That was very sweet.

Don't be shy. It's the internet:-)
Good Morning All,
Thought you might get a kick out of this:…

It's an article on Dan Savage from Washington Monthly via Arts & Letters Daily:
oh damn, EricaP. how is it that you continually raise the bar for slog/slotd comments?
This is why I love this blog. So many amazing people!!
@121: Ah! Thank you. I didn't read it that way, but I see your point.
pay no attention to harry. he's full of shit after crawling through all those viennese sewers.
@122 EricaP
Good morning! Hugs back to ya.

@120 Canuck
She doesn't do it to prove herself to anyone. She is just one of those people who can't sit still. She works just for the pleasure of it.

I learned early on to avoid keeping pace with her. It only pushes her to go faster or do more. For example there is a limit to how clean I'm going make the house because no matter what I do she'll pitch in and add to it. I half expect her to boil the coffee table some day. So I leave a little laundry for her or let her clean the bathroom. I know that sounds bad --a guy "letting" his wife clean the bathroom-- but it's true. If it helps to know what that entails at least I sit when I pee, as any man would if he had to clean the toilet. (if men cleaned toilets there would be power tools designed for that purpose)

I love her personality and wouldn't change it. I fully support her in everything she does, even to the extent that I have had to push her to do things (grad school) that she was timid about deciding to do because I knew that was what she really wanted deep down. She has total freedom to travel as much as she needs for work, work as late as her job demands, meet whatever friends with whom she wants to socialize. I can do that because I know that she really cares whether those things affect me.

The change I'm looking for is more balance. She is delighted with the sex we're having. I am not. I need greater frequency and variety. My interests have grown considerably since we first met but hers have remained almost unchanged. And if you've been keeping up you know I'm bisexual. 25 years is a long time to go without cock. I'm reasonably certain she's never going to grow one at this point.

This is the person I fell in love with. She is monogamous. That's extremely important to her. I think it has to do with her insecurities and that's where I want to see if she can improve herself. Maybe we can open the marriage or more likely maybe we can achieve a better prioritization of sex in our life together.
@EricaP, I just read the salon article you linked to. The most disturbing thing for me wasn't her friends, but was instead the comments section of the article. People were so angry at her for accepting the term MILF; for allowing herself to get validation from men; for worrying about her attractiveness when she's only in her thirties (apparently anxiety about aging is not allowed until you hit fifty); and for not knowing that "men will fuck anything" so being told she's a MILF means nothing.

There are a lot of angry people when it comes to thinking/talking about sex.

I'm a super type A, and while I find pleasure in my work, I've learned that "desire to not sit still" is seldom the driving force for those of us who work until the point where it throws other areas of our lives out of balance. I'm not going to put a label on it, because I don't know her. It could be about proving herself (to self or others), it could be about avoiding dark thoughts (anything from specific trauma to the general existential malaise common to all humanity), it could be about anything, really, but when someone allows their partner to be unhappy because they're super-focused on their work, there's usually something deeper going on. It took me a while and a really awful break up to realise that keeping the person I love happy is as important as keeping the people I work with safe and healthy.
Wow. This isn't a normal comment section is it? Kind of interesting, but there are a lot of continuing conversations going on here. I feel like I'm at a party where people keep talking about other people I don't know.
I'm guessing she's a porn widow rather than him being closeted gay.
@131: Welcome to Slog. One big disfuntional family. Wait until you meet the crazy uncles!
@131: Welcome! Just grab a login name and you'll soon be the hit of the party.

@132: I don't get that. Who watches porn and gets less into sex? Perhaps if he's got some online relationships I could imagine him getting less into sex with her. Or, if he gets to watch the porn he's into, he might get less interested in vanilla sex. But watching porn makes you think that people who like sex more than twice monthly are sex-obsessed?

I think you've bought the Christianist porn bullshit lies.
Concise answer, Dan.

How about going poly? Can you have sex outside your relationship with this sexless dude? Is it possible to have a platonic relationship with the man, and get plenty tail outside? Or is he or you wired to be monogamous?

If you are definitely monogamous and can't imagine have other partners, then yeah, don't marry this dude. Sounds like if you are sad now, marriage will be a depressing cell of masturbation. Followed by divorce. Don't make that sort of mistake. Follow your gut's instincts!
@114, Wow, Maddy811, the words you chose to make your points really resonate with me. I'm in a situation similar to the LW's (genders reversed, among other things) and, seriously, your post really helps me see things more clearly. Thanks!
@135 The boyfriend stated that she was "sex-obsessed" for wanting more than twice a week. For an "open" relationship (let's not even talk about poly) to work, I will make a wild guess and say that being "open" minded is necessary. He is satisfied with the present situation, so there is no reason for him to do an effort.
I think most people write to Dan because they know they should break up (anybody reading/listening to these advice could have guessed they answer) and but breaking up isn't easy so they need to hear it from someone else. People need more means friends. (or at least friend who'll say the painful stuff)
@131 - Welcome! Don't worry, it's gets better :-)

@137 - we need a website called "What Would Dan Say?" where people can post the problems they're having with their relationship, press "submit" and be directed automatically to a scrolling list of DTMFAs, or one HUGE BLINKING one.
jenesasquatch, just so you know, you come across as such a generous, thoughtful guy, just wanted to say that. Do you and your wife talk much about your being bi? This might seem silly, but reading MM erotica might help her to see that part of you as a turn on, rather than as a thing to be insecure about. Also, for me, reading through all of the SL archives was HUGE in terms of no longer seeing potential "open relationships/affairs" as deal-breakers. I was raised to believe cheating was the worst possible thing, and after reading through all of the archives, I've realized it shouldn't be a deal-breaker at all. Also, perhaps an unwelcome suggestion, but personally, I have much lower inhibitions in the absence of kids and in the presence of tequila...just saying--sleepovers elsewhere and margaritas have produced good results in our marriage... :)
Does this make me vote # 1869 to DTMFA? Seriously, why do people without kids ever dream of taking the plunge into a sex deprived relationship. I have got to imagine it is even worse on the psyche of women with the higher libido since men are expected to want it all the time. How can you not take that personally?

@69 Kim in Portland - I have my stop-watch set until my youngest hits 11. Tick, tick, tick....

@130 Canadian Nurse - I completely agree re the Salon article. I thought the idea of the article, a 30-something mom feeling sexually alive from adolecent male attention was heartwarming. Slog commenters 1 - Salon commenters 0.

@139 - Canuck, Savage has opened my eyes on the cheating/why do we expect everything out of one person thing too. I would love to bring my wife on an exploration. Based on her porn preferences and expressed fantasies, she probably would do it if she felt secure. I have heard EricaPs story, and as much as I love dreaming vicariously through her, my wife would never respond to an ultimatum. Is there anything your DH could say to you to allow solo or mutual outside exploration? Sloggers? Any magic words?

@138 Lets be fair, there are other answers (he can't say dtfm to single people) So, what about a magic ball? "DTMF", "Fuck him/her/them", "Kinks are ok" "Porn isn't evil" "Go tell that to him/her" And the most controversial: "Go to gym, stop eating shit"
Tim Horton (ha!) @140 I think if my husband had suggested this out of the blue, I would probably have freaked out, I would have taken it to mean I was no longer desirable, etc. So, it wasn't a magic word from him, but rather hours and hours and hours of reading, not just SL, but a bunch of other books on how men think about things (I tend to go overboard when a new subject fascinates me), because I was so intrigued by this idea that SO many men were feeling sexually unfulfilled in their marriages, and reading about the way men often continue to fantasize about, as one book so gracefully put it, "strange pussy." I'd find a way to have your wife do some independent reading first, maybe including Sex at Dawn (haven't read it yet, but it sounds like it supports the idea of non-exclusivity). Also, I think giving your wife tons of attention would offset her feelings of insecurity about opening things up. It sounds like that's the way EricaP and her husband do it, he seems to be really turned on by her adventures. So much easier to have negotiated this from the outset, as Dan did, but in lieu of that, I think getting your wife thinking about sex (reading erotica, watching porn together) and reading tbe other tjings I mentioned would go a ways toward, uh, preparing the soil, as it were...good luck, TimBit!
@140: I'm not Canuck—she's generally more insightful than me—but I'd suggest starting from the viewpoint of her fantasies. Can you make the discussion be about "We're the people who are meant to be fulfilling each other's fantasies, even if the fantasy won't always involve the other person."

Fulfill some of her fantasies with her. Fulfill some of yours with her. Start with fantasies that are easier and less threatening than solo outside exploration. Perhaps some kinks/fetishes that you haven't explored together, then role plays or dirty talk about other people while it's only the two of you there. If it's natural that what you two do is fulfill each other's sexual fantasies, then fulfilling fantasies that involve thirds or involve sex when the other isn't there becomes easier to imagine.

So many of us woman have been raised that desire for monogamy=love that it takes time to trust that nonmonogamy =/= counting down 'till the breakup. I think the experience of having other people in your sex life (whether physically there or psychically there through roleplay/dirty talk) and having your relationship become stronger rather than weaker is so important to helping her feel secure. That means, of course, that you also need to ensure that your bond is getting stronger through this process.
@139 Canuck

We haven't talked much about the bi. She finds man-on-man sex kind of gross (my words not hers, but it's pretty clear). I absolutely adore all of you ladies here who find it attractive. You have no idea how helpful that is to me. One thing I've resolved to change is to make orientation more a topic of conversation.

We do have a place to get away from The Boy™ for the weekend and for me especially it always brings high hopes of carnal delight. But here's the thing: I have a few hard limits -kids, animals, scat, and serious injury or death. I'm willing to do anything else and I'm actively interested in quite a few things that I won't trouble you with. She on the other hand is willing to do about 4 vanilla things and nothing else. GGG is an alien concept to her. I'm working on that. Patience. Progress has been made.

We've gotten a lot of mileage out of that overlap. We have had mind blowing sex and have each on more than one occasion been reduced to free flowing tears during the experience. That doesn't happen every time. It ruins you for any thought of casual sex or cheating ever again.

Canuck, you dear lady, no suggestion of yours will ever be "unwelcome."
jenesasquatch, that's great you have a place to get away to, as you know, it can make all the difference in the world. For me, reading makes a huge difference. In fact, stumbling upon some crappy porn dressed up as a "romance" novel helped me to journey out of the "mommy zone", so seeing if she'd be game to read some silly seriously gets your mojo mojoing. I'm at work, and suck at copy/paste on my phone, but check back later tonight, I'm going to post some novel ideas (or if you have a generic email, I can send it there.) I started reading MF traditional stuff, and, shall we say, "broadened" my horizons a bit...those types of books pretty seamlessly transition into mild kink, MMF threesomes, etc, she might be surprised at how turned on she is by the non-vanilla worked for me, but we're all different. I think how you're raised to think about sex also plays into it a lot. My husband was raised in a household where sex was never discussed, while my mom left the Joy of Sex out on the coffee table, so that's part of it (although being raised by fairly conservative Catholics doesn't seem to have held Dan back at all... :)

Canadian Nurse: pish posh, you give great advice, hon!
PS I meant to add, jenesasquatch, your description of sex with your wife was beautiful. Good luck.
Well, Tim Horton @ 140,

I hope good things for you. I hope you and wife are making time away from the children, to remember why you each thought each other so lovely to start with.
Oh, I'm prone to think many of us find bi men more than attractive. Good luck, jenasasquatch, I'm rooting for you.
@25. Right here. "I don't care how f@#$ing runny it is. Hand it over with all speed.
@148 Hi Kim

I'm fascinated by that. Again, lots of women on here say things like that. Just for fun take a look at online personals sometime. Couples seeking a third almost invariably want a woman. "No single men" is a common phrase among swingers. Do you think that's because there just aren't that many married bi men?
Canadian Nurse, Kim, Canuck, all awesome insights!

@142 - non-monogamy is likely the default for men, or as you put it so much more elegantly "the desire for strange pussy." Don't women have the desire for strange cock?

I was about to adopt the nickname TimBit but that evokes images of women holding their thumb and index finger 3 inches apart......
Hi Jenasasquatch,

I don't doubt it. You could be right about there not being many married bi men. But, I also think it may be due, and I have no data to back this up, to the fact that the idea of sexual fluidity in woman is more widely accepted. Thus, women have a level of permission to experiment without having their heterosexual status questioned. Men don't have that permission, so they may fear loosing their heterosexual status. Stupid, in my opinion. Also, a single male may be seen as a threat as a single male lion, wolf, gorilla is seen in the wild, I'm think of Dan's podcast recently of the guy who was upset about his girl having vaginal sex with another guy in a MMF threesome even though he told her to. It could be the way men are socialized to be tough and to fear, and that creates a huge wall in their minds. But does seem that when a woman writes to Dan to tell them that they had a threesome it is a FFM and that she often adds that she hopes that it will lead to a MMF one in the future, and the FFM had to be first because it was less threatening. Those are just guesses, though.

I think Slog, and Dan, bring together people who find the wide expanse of human sexuality and its expression beautiful. We like life colorful. We find people who are comfortable in their own skin very sexy. And, what many in society would think should be taboo, we see as an opportunity to at minimum to become educated about or even explore. (There are exceptions, of course.) And, we seem to share an ethical expectation that integrity is of extreme importance. It may also be that our openness allows us to consider that we could find pleasure in a person of the same gender if we are straight, or the opposite gender if we are gay, etc., and maybe that makes us think that we may be a bit bi ourselves or bi for that one person that defy all and turns our crank? Hence you find women who get why a man would find another man attractive here.

On a side note. Have you introduced your beloved to our Dan? My husband gave me a print copy of Savage Love and it was helpful many moons ago. It made me start thinking. Little did he know that I was so skilled with knots, that I play my best on the guitar/bass when I'm wearing nothing but stilettos or high heeled boots, but he doesn't seem to be sorry. Just a thought.

Sorry to be so wordy.

@150 The husband might be up for some guy action, but not be able to cope with seeing his wife having intercourse with another guy... I think that's pretty common.

@151 I bet more women picture strong, unfamiliar hands on their bodies, and not so many picture unfamiliar cocks in their fantasies.
@151 Tim Horton (I had that same thought about Timbit about 10 seconds after I posted, oops!) No, Tim Horton sounds much, uh, bigger... :)

Speaking for myself, well yeah, I think about other guys, no one specific, just random bodies like the headless torsos on the Hollister shopping bags...which probably means it's the newness, or "strangeness" that appeals, not the idea of connection or romance (wow, I sound like a total douche, don't I?) But those are just thoughts, I've been completely monogamous in my marriage. But yeah, I think about it!

jenesasquatch, re: the 3 ways, could it be men have been socialized to ignore any bi leanings they might have, where FF action is such a mainstay of porn that both men and women are more likely to accept that? Just thoughts...and yeah, I'd give my eye teeth to see that in real life...TMI??
@137 (Kyrie), the LW didn't write "twice a week"; she wrote "twice a month" and her bf considers that frequency to be a symptom of sex-obsession.
Ms Kim: @69 - Rosamund Pike's Jane Bennet may be one of the five most spot-on portrayals in all performed Austen.

@119 - While love can conquer all, it's so rarely possible and adherence to the idea under mistaken premeses can be so dangerous that I rather suspect the net effect is deep in the negative column. But you're a much nicer person than I am. Your conditions seem quite exact, though.
Ms Elisabeth @79 - I don't think one can get much higher on the GGG scale than that. I can sort of sense how he felt; personally I'm so bad at refusing anyone that, had I been pursued by any of the women for whom I've had a genuine regard, I'd probably have been too polite to say No.
Mr Jenesasquatch @109 - I like your six accomplished women; this seems apposite too:

Charlotte Lucas: "Happiness in marriage is entirely a matter of chance. If the dispositions of the parties are ever so well known to each other or ever so similar beforehand, it does not advance their felicity in the least. They always continue to grow sufficiently unlike afterwards to have their share of vexation; and it is better to know as little as possible of the defects of the person with whom you are to pass your life."

@129 - It's too bad your wife doesn't have a stronger sense of guilt. That was one reason why I always felt lucky that none of my SOs were bi. Although I'm as monogamous as anyone, it probably wouldn't have been one year, let alone 25, before I'd have felt so guilty that I'd have pushed him into opposite-sex experiences on the side.
@152 kim
Terrific response! Thank you for all of that. I have discussed particular columns with her but she has yet to develop any interest in reading it on her own.

@153 EricaP
I would be shocked to find that the men want anything to do with the other guy in the room. Then again women being interested in male homosexual acts seemed like a major disconnect with my experience.

@154 Canuck
Did I read that correctly, that you'd "give my eye teeth" to watch 2 guys get busy? That sounds like a big deal to you. Have you not yet seen that live show because your husband is not into it?

I agree that Rosamund Pike was wonderful.

As to love conquering all. I think the English word for love is too limited. I prefer the many forms of Greek. And, 'agape', is not for the weak or the cowardly. It is not the passion of 'eros' or chumminess of 'philo'. It's power relies in the commitment to change oneself to meet the other, while they in return do the same. It's actively choosing to love through the alteration of the beloved, locking on to the fixed target, and altering oneself to relinquish that which is inflexible within. It takes very committed people to succeed. And, I have no idea how successful it is, because I only walk in my own shoes and I only know the depth of my own ability to commit. So, it may indeed be rare.

As to one of us being a better person. You are very kind, but I don't think that is a possibility. I think there are many ways to respond to life, and the important part is being true to oneself. I appreciate reading you.

Take care.

I wouldn't wish her guilty feelings. For me being bi does not mean requiring both sexes any more than being kinky means requiring indulgence of every filthy act that occurs to me (I'd need a team of experts for that).
jenesasquatch, if presented with tbe actual possibility, I'd probably chicken out, but yes, there's some appeal in that department! And no, that would never happen in a million years at my house, my husband is definitely not wired that way...apparently, it's just us Sloggers who are freaky... :)
@ 159 You're welcome, jenesasquach. How I wish you joy, love. And, heaps of fun, too.

Take care.
@159 - I have no experience, but reading Slog I have learned that many "hetero" guys will say yes to guy-on-guy sex if they are horny and they think no one will find out. I have no idea what the statistics are. But then I also have no idea what the statistics are on men wanting or fearing seeing their wife with another man.

@163 My love to you.
Now we're getting somewhere. For many who express that it's a turn-on it's probably just a fantasy not to be acted on. And for many men who identify as straight there is a terror of teh gay getting on them. Men and women on slog say these things but how many have or would do them? And how many of their spouses would permit it or come along for the ride? Not that many I'd bet. Canuck only wants to watch and that isn't happening. I think that's perfectly normal.
Wish that folks who were new to Dan Savage's column would read the old stuff "for the fun of it" before asking what is a pretty basic (and oft-repeated) question.
@161 - You are correct; guilt isn't really the right word. I was going backwards - thinking about your remark about 25 years, that, even if that wasn't what a partner of mine had intended, a remark like that even before the end of the first year would have made me feel horribly guilty, and the rest came from that.

At any rate, I certainly admire your sense of dedication. In my relationships, I tended to feel each time that I could never give him as much as he deserved (shades of the silver casket!). Lukcily, this never killed anything, but for some odd reason life is much happier now that I've Retired from Romance.

May you soon be bathed in bliss.
Fascinating conversation all around.

@166: Re the whole MMF/MFF thing, pairs looking for thirds, etc., I think it's all down to society's fucked up attitudes towards sexuality. Remember the "one-drop rule" about race? All it took was one drop of African blood to make you black. Similarly, for many people there is a "one-cock rule." You can fuck a thousand women, but if you suck one cock, you're a faggot.

The same rule does not apply to women, of course. MM is gay. FF is hawt.

It's ridiculous of course.

My wife and I have discussed threesomes, opening things up, etc. We haven't done anything yet, but it is something we both want to do. And we're open to both female and male thirds. If there's another man in the bed, I expect I'll be quite happy to lend him a hand - or anything else he needs.

Will that mean I'm no longer straight? Fuck no. My sexual identity is about a lot more than about who I get off or who gets me off. It's about who I lust after, and who I fall in love with - that is to say, it's about women. A man would just be for fun.
Canuck, it's late where I am so if you still want to pass along those references maxbosco1 at hotmail.
Man you are sweet, jenesasquatch. I just read you comment @ 161. I think if my husband was bi I would want and expect that he fully express his sexuality. For a purely selfish reason, too. I wouldn't want to limit the fullness of who he was. As I love all of him. And, I find sexual expression lovely. I suppose if he didn't wish to express it, then I would support that, too. Still, I wouldn't want my monogamous tendency to alter who he was. And, I would wonder. Plus, I've always thought a man into something sublimely sexy, and that includes a man into another man as well. I see beauty. Canuck may be correct. I'm glad I'm not alone. And, I'm glad to be freaky if it empowers others.

And, back at you (@165), platonic-ally sent.
EricaP @164 - the thought of my wife getting PIV from another guy doesn't phase me. The thought of her getting ready to go on a date with another guy before getting the "p" or getting frisky with another guy while I was stuck at home - that would cause a bench clearing brawl.

As my best friend who is in the swinger lifestyle says: "the sting of watching your wife get fucked by another guy is taken away by the sight of his wife bent over screaming in pleasure with you inside her." I am paraphrasing.....
@ 166,

I would. I'm GGG with a few limitations. I'm not/was not pulling your chain. As to my better half, we've talked.
Ms EricaP @164 - While one would hardly expect you to be able to back up your first sentence (SM-G/BM) from experience, you have made me curious. Do you have any orientation-crossing experience (say, GM-S/BF) you can share? Over decades of fiction writing with wildly variable success, I've tried to write that sort of thing on occasion, but, as it was always entirely speculation, never felt quite confident in the result.
@172 funny how people are different. My husband likes imagining me with other men. He used to, in fantasy, before we opened up the marriage. And now he explicitly encourages me to go out with other men, whenever I need reminding. He does, also, like screwing other women, but there's less of that to go around. And we have only occasionally found a couple where I wanted the other guy, and the other woman wanted my husband.

@174 - several gay guys on Slog have posted that they often ask their straight male friends for sex, and are often accepted. It's not all fantasy, jenesasquatch @166.
In my experience, gay guys don't ask straight women for sex. I have a couple of gay friends I would love to fuck, and I've made that clear, and they are sweet and flirty with me, but the whole va-jay-jay thing is disgusting to them, so no, ultimately, they're not going to hit it.
@174, gay/bi girls will hit on me, and I like that... but I still get awkward when it gets past the flirting and kissing and necking phase, so I don't think anyone's going to write stories about that :-)
BB @169...totally cool comment. It would be a happier world if all the straight guys were as open-minded as you are.

jenesasquatch, sending you an email with book ideas, let me know if you don't get it...
@177 - I read that, and thought that you were talking about your own book ideas, or maybe for a book you and jenesasquatch were writing together -- and I'm like, wow, I would read that!

But now I remember you just had erotica references for him. Sigh. Off to bed to dream about the book the two of you would write together.
@171 kim

You are incredibly generous. That's how I feel about her, that she should follow her path. I would love her to be able to enjoy sex with others but that's not who she is. I know it isn't. She is indifferent to porn and finds extremely few men attractive (and women not all).

Don't be concerned. You clearly understand there are different varieties of love as do I.

@169 Backyard Bombardier
Great comment. I'm impressed that you can be so free. I suppose it follows from having the security of knowing who you are and being willing to imagine things that would unhinge lesser men. Have fun! 5280 isn't around so I'll say "pictures or it didn't happen."

@178 EricaP
Tempting idea. I draw and I have thought of doing an erotic comic some day. Or maybe I could get permission to do a HUMP! movie. Then again on camera I look like one of those skeletons in an old Sinbad movie.…
Ha, EricaP, now you're making me think of those writing clubs where you pass around a piece of fiction, and everyone writes a paragraph or can only imagine how that would turn out on Slog.... !
I would do a terrible job writing those kinds of books. It drives me nuts when the main characters keep getting interrupted, or change their minds, or whatever, before they finally get it characters would never get interrupted, have wild monkey sex in the first chapter, and wrap things up by page 42...maybe I should consider the short short story...
Can't argue with Dan. The relationship is perfect, except for that one thing that has begun to raise itself among your priorities is especially low in his. DTMFA, and don't spend another moment worrying about that sexless future!
@ 179 No worries, jenesasquatch. I'm glad to know you understand the many forms. "platonic-ally" was for the general readership.

Take care.
It's a lot easier to find someone who can ride my cock like cyclone and suck it like a lollipop.
Versus finding someone who communicates well with me, is attractive, educated, similar hobbies, and all that jazz...

If it was about sex, why would anyone get into relationships? I refrained when I was younger so I could bone a different guy/girl regularly.
@183 - why do you see it as an either/or proposition? Because you secretly think that a girl who can "ride [your] cock like a cyclone and suck it like a lollipop" is a whore, not good enough for you to marry?
@111 - i've been listening/reading D. Savage for the last 10+ years. That said, maybe you're right, Dan wouldn't necessarily give me an dtmfa.

@121 - I'm not upset in the least at Dan, just calling out that he's being lazy (or not giving his column much energy with all the other side projects going on)

I think the tone of the 'dtmfa' acronym is simply negative. Its very easy in my humble opinion to discard an argument with a short negative acronym. It puts things in a more concrete state if its spoken with a negative pitch. Its also very boring and while maybe leaving is the right answer a 'dtmfa' probably isn't. Unless you've been cheated on or robbed, etc, you're probably not going to think of your love as a mother fer -- especially if she/he just doesn't want to get it on. For everyone who will disagree with this, try to do it in a positive way and you may see that its a little more difficult than just labeling it in a negative light.

In my case, we have a 16th month old daughter and a dying grandma. Excuses, excuses, but thinking in terms of the other person may shed light beyond a dtmfa. I personally think that my sex life is toast... I don't really see it coming back unfortunately, but I do love my wife and that's where it stands right now.

I do appreciate so much compassion and support from so many random individuals. Makes me feel like DS's readers are a top tier group of people.

    Please wait...

    Comments are closed.

    Commenting on this item is available only to members of the site. You can sign in here or create an account here.

    Add a comment

    By posting this comment, you are agreeing to our Terms of Use.