Comments

102
I will cheer the day that every last one of this churches members burn in a huge fiery blaze! What a bunch of losers!
103
Let's see...the things I have been catcalled over...

Having red hair. Yes, it's fake, but it's a naturally-occurring hair color that is in no way an invitation for STRANGERS I just happen to be walking by to discuss how that makes me "crazy sexy." You wanna talk about my hair color? Say "I like your hair color."

The college-logo t-shirts I'm fond of. I have a bunch because I had to wear them to work when I was in college. They're comfy, and not tight. No problem with people saying "hey, I went there, too," or something to that effect (which happens a lot...we have a HUGE alumni association in DC). BIG problem with you saying my tits are an awesome advertisement for the university.

My awesome laptop bags. There's a particular designer that I really love who makes this really cool, funky laptop bags. I have 4 of them, and I get compliments on them all the time, which I appreciate. I DO NOT appreciate being told that my laptop bag is funky, so I must be pretty funky, too :::shit-eating grin:::

My choice of drink. Har-de-har...the red head likes red-headed sluts. They're tasty, and say nothing about my slutiness of lack thereof.

Still think it's about "looking promiscuous" or "dressing provocatively?" I get harassed at least once a week, and dress "provocatively" maybe twice a year. It happens no more frequently when dressed provocatively than otherwise.
104
lissa honey, are you organizing the slutty sloggers team?
105
Rape is rape -- and heinously wrong, period. I don't give a rat's arse what the other indivual is wearing -- or not wearing, for that matter, or how. I don't care if the welcome sign is out in every way you can imagine. When that sign is pulled -- stop. Period.

It sickens me when people -- or a mob-mentality mass of people, defend the rapist for a myriad of reasons that all too often just defend some insecurity, vice, or rigid virtuism of their own, that they feel is threatened by the victim somehow, or by persecution of the victimizer.

I don't know how many times I have heard the same, tired, stale attempts at justification -- as if being male was some kind of reason for terrorizing another human being; as if being human was some kind of basis for being heinously inhumane.

Raped, and rapist can be anyone, regardless of gender, or gender-identity, etc. The raped can be any age. Even if you're too terrified to say the words, no means no.

There's this myth that you will always feel able to say "no" at that moment. There is this myth that you will ubdoubtedly feel that you can. The point is -- there is no substitute for a "yes," that stays "yes," of an of-age, competent, consenting human being.

As a man, and a human being -- no one is in charge of "keeping it in my pants" but me; not being hot, and bothered ... and not the way someone else is dressing.
106
#28 you rock! #67 Your self-respect, and self-accountability -- and just plain outrage, hearten me. I'd hug you too, permission pending. You make a fellow dude -- and human being, proud. I agree with #82 totally.

Well put #86. Foolishness -- whatever the accuracy of that at the time, does not equate to accountability.

Why should it matter what anyone else is wearing, or how they behave? Splash some cold water on your face. That's why they call it self-control, because it's up to the person, not to rape.

Well put, as well #87, and 88.

Genocide, rape ... they come from objectification, dehumanizing perceptions of people -- focussing in on perceptions we disagree with about the raped, when it aught to be rape we disagree with, and decry; the inexcusable actions of those who choose to rape.

#77, you said it yourself ... if someone entered that "vehicle" -- that human being without consent, taking what was not theirs to take, they (the raped) were violated. If the police asked if you had permission to be there, and you said "she was there -- doors open, and everything ..." they'd still haul your arse to jail, because you made the choice to enter without consent, and take what you damn well pleased.

#77 please hear what you agree with, and hear what you don't. But please, hear it all, and walk away with eyes clear on any grains you find that speak to you in being a better you for having had the discussion.

#'s 9, 37, 92, and 96 (and many -- so many more,) it doesn't seem right to name you by numbers, but it seems to suit the format. I wish our roads hadn't held the horrors they did, but I am heartened that my own road has at this moment found me in this place to hear your courage, and dignity voiced , and all the good, decent voices joined herein. #28, and #67 -- you so rock!

Be well. Hugs, Adam
107
@104: What a good idea! I would be happy to!
@ 105 & 106: Thank you for being a mensch. And Sam, Treacle, Ken, Outercow, Venomlash Matt while I'm at it, same goes for you.
108
amazing... I know I am late to this post but I can not help but comment. The problem with Aardvark's argument is not just the logic, which I think 67 dealt with, but the factual basis of the argument. I have never seen any evidence, scientific or anecdotal, that suggests dressing provocatively in anyway increases the chance of being sexually assaulted, there is just no evidence for this. Therefore the car analogy is just not comparable.

"i see slutwalk as a sea of frantic over-sensitive women bitching and moaning. not very persuasive" - well I think you have to have some sort of basic rationality to be persuaded, so you are not really the target audience. Also, it is not just about changing perceptions (that a woman should be able to sleep with as many men she wants without ever been forced into sex and that dressing provocatively in no way means you have responsibility for being raped) but it is also about clubbing together and showing mutual support for one another, support for people who are unfairly judged or blamed for being raped and a message that as a society we should not stand for it, the rapists are 100 % responsible, not the victims.

It is amazing that in this day and age it is even required at all, but people like aardvark are living evidence that it is.
109
all you need is a crew of vollunteers with sheets of black plastic on 1by2s stretched between them. you simply hold it infront of the westboro people so they aren't seen and you don't have to see them. A half dozen crews with 6x8 sheets shuts westborro morons down nicely.
110
Every event like this that the WBC protest is a tragedy that the family can't be around to exploit.
111
Aardvark is probably a rapist.

also some fun facts (fear the power of my google-fu)

Research has found that the vast majority of rapes are planned. Rape is the responsibility of the rapist alone. Women, children and men of every age, physical type and demeanor are raped. Opportunity is the most important factor determining when a given rapist will rape.

Incest is common and happens in every community. An estimated 77% of reported sexual abusers are parents (57% of the total being natural parents), 16% are other relatives, and 6% are non-related. In addition, males are reported to be the abusers in 60 to 95% of cases. (Thoringer, School Psychology Review, 17 (4):614-636)

By some estimates, over 70% of rape victims know their attackers. The rapist may be a relative, friend, co-worker, date or other acquaintance.

Rape often occurs in one's home - be it apartment, house or dormitory. Very often the rapist is known by the victim in some way and the rape is carefully planned.
112
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE let a passing motorist's brakes fail, have his huge SUV jump the curb and take out the entire WBC.
113
@74

Lissa, I just want to say I really admired this sentence...

"This is a group of decent, thoughtful human beings reacting with horror to an outstanding demonstration of the banality of evil in action”

it's awesome! also, sorry to everyone involved on this thread who wasn't aardvark.
114
#107 ... Lissa, thankyou. I had to google your compliment. Then I cried, and couldn't stop smiling the more I read. It's a wonderful page over at jewishealing. Thankyou for making my week -- but also for a very good read, as I nodded with passages, and learned a lot about being a better me. We're all teachers, when we never stop being a student.

Thankyou to everyone who stood up. Thankyou to everyone who gave of their attention to hear. Lissa, Hawke, Sam, Treacle, Brooklyngirl, Kim, Venomlash, Roadflare -- and more I missed, thankyou.

I am terrible at checking my email, but if any don't mind the dust-bunnies in my inbox, I've been honored to share a much-needful soapbox here.

Be well, Adam savagebeagle@earthlink.net
115
Attention Seattle Sloggers:
I have been enlisted to organize(hat tip: scary tyler moore) a group of us to march in Seattle Slut Walk in June. Cienna Madrid will be putting up a post to that effect closer to the date, and we can coordinate in the comment section. I'll also put in a facebook event like we did for the unofficial Slog Happy.
Cienna and Kelly O will be marching and would like to meet up with us as well! Squee!
116
@115 - Lissa, I wasn't even going to go, but He Who Is Now Added to My Registered Commenter Filter has changed my mind. I'll join the Seattle SlogSluts!
117
So, aardvark, lesbians who dress up for other women are 'asking for it' from men? Fuck off.
118
@113&114: :)
@116: Yay! It will be good to have you.
119
The Slutwalk seems silly to me. Anyone who seriously thinks that women are asking to be raped by wearing short skirts or high heels is a fucking moron who needs to be ignored. If that moron's in a position of authority, like the Toronto cop, he should immediately be fired. He made these remarks in a seminar at a university and nobody in the audience challenged him because they were all just shocked into silence. The point is, his type of attitude is not prevalent in our society. The Slutwalk feels like an excuse for women to parade around in skimpy clothing. A bunch of women with their boobs and butts hanging out isn't going to change the attitudes of people like this bad apple cop.
120
its better for me and everyone to stay away from all the negativity on here.

you can say "im probably a rapist" or whatever (thats part of whats so hysterical here) but i still take the position that women can be partially to blame for causing attention to themselves or just being stupid. its common sense. its why you are trying to change this "perception" that currently exists about putting some sort of responsibility on women in some cases. (SOME CASES. calm down.) victims can be to blame for provocation. all cases must be determined individually. in most crime, there is a prior relationship, some kind of provocation. that is why it must be determined what the relationship and situation was.

im not a rapist or even close. im a regular guy, the kind you see and talk to every day. believe it or not, im a regular progressive most ways. i know as a guy every other guy i know is afraid of women calling fake rape, or just understanding that women can bring alot of shit on themselves. you will educate yourself when you understand this and learn a little bit about sexual reality from both sides. yes i understand the women's perspective. i get your point. but i dont think you know what it's like from all sides. it's complicated, it's not as simplistic as you make it sound here. and there are alot of pussy guys i wouldnt listen to on this subject. talk to some typical bro dudes, you'll get some insight. full stop! cheers!
121
@120, Fuck you, no means no and yes means yes. That really is all there is to it. You get creepier every time you comment. I advise you to step away from the keyboard before you release another turd like that into the internet. You might also think twice before you comment again on what you think is "hysterical" to a bunch of feminists.
122
Wow, 120...so you're sticking to your story that if a woman is wearing something "provocative" (which I believe still needs to be defined...does it need to be short, low-cut, and skin-tight, or can it be anything short of a burka?), or simply chooses to enter a public space, you and your "bros" just can't help but to hoot and holler at her? And some of your "bros" can't help but have forcible sex with her, because, well, she's equipped to have vaginal and/or anal and/or oral sex with a man, so she's asking for it? Whose problem is that? Hers or his? I don't know what your problem with asking men to display a bit of decorum in public is. I was walking down the sidewalk the other day when a very attractive young man ran by me while he wiped off his face with his shirt, exposing his rather nicely defined abs. I SOMEHOW resisted the urge to yell at him, or tackle him and try to force him to have sex with me. I MUST be some kind of saint for showing that kind of restraint. Or maybe I've just learned that it's only polite to let someone complete their run in peace, no matter how attractive I might find them, rather than try to force them to pay attention to ME and MY DESIRES.

You know why most sexual assaults and harassment cases are committed by men who knew the women they assaulted? Because those men feel entitled to do whatever they want to the women in their lives, and the women made the simple mistake of thinking the men in their lives could be trusted not to assault them. If the woman so much as touches his arm, she's clearly displaying interest, and if she happens to end up in a situation where they're alone, well, open invitation. And even if she says no, she means yes...right?
123
@120 - "victims can be to blame for provocation"? No, they can't, asshole. If your toddler is acting obnoxiously and you fatally beat him, would it be his fault for provoking you? By the same token, if you happen to be out on a date with a hot chick in a low-cut top and things get out of hand and well, you just couldn't help yourself, it's not your fault, is it? Because she provoked you.
Grow the fuck off, take responsibility for your behaviors and beliefs and go seek professional help before you find yourself on the other end of a rape charge.
124
Let me preface this statement with the following facts. I'm a Man, and I am a survivor of serial rape by both a woman and her boyfriend when I was 14. The idea that I would accept blame upon myself, or expect any other victim to accept blame is not only offensive, its ridiculous in the extreme. That said, I find the premise that is becoming wider spread that we have an enforced 'Rape Culture' to be equally ridiculous.
Do I agree that a person is responsible for their victimization based on the way they dress, no the responsibility for the actions of the assailant lie squarely on his, or her shoulders. And much like a drunk driver, their status of intoxication has nothing to do with alleviating the actions they have taken.
That being said, you, the woman or man are equally responsible for your actions, and their repercussions. If you choose to have facial piercings and full body tattoos, you accept the repercussion that despite your exceptional IQ, and an MBA from an ivy league school - you will not likely ever be hired for a position on wall-street, except perhaps as a Barista. Likewise, if I go out, dressed in skin tight clothing, revealing every curve and cleft of my body, Head out to a bar where people are likely to be very drunk, and are looking to fulfill those most primal of urges. I am drawing attention to myself, I would not dress that way if it was not my intent to do so. If some guy pushes him self on me forcefully, or manages to drug my drink, I am not to blame for his actions, but I choose to put myself in the situation where they were not only possible - but where I presented myself as a prime target.
These situations are scientific cause and effect, their outcomes are equally life altering, and they are equal examples of life in a society that operates on the unfair basis of visual impressions, and objectify's people based on those impressions.
Does what the woman wears (or the man) broadcast some signal that they are open to all, suggest that they are promiscuous; Yes - on levels of human nature as old as recorded history they clothes we wear are as much a mating display as the plumes of a peacock. Is it an excuse for someone to sexually assault you, or give an alibi for ignorance of a cardinal truth--No means No. They do not.

If you are truly trying to find Valid and Scientific evidence to support this unfair and unfortunate fact, I would suggest the book "A Natural History of Rape: Biological Bases of Sexual Coercion." Its rather academic, and assumes a reasonable understanding of both Psychology and Anthropology, and the fusion discipline of Evolutionary psychology. a lot of it is tedious to process, but it does back up this point with scientific evidence.

Traditionally Rape was a crime of power, the strong over the weak. And in many parts of the world; for example in Africa's conflict zones where people--particularly women and children, but also men--are often subjected to sexual violence, including rape, mutilation, and sexual slavery. this traditional perspective is still predominantly true. But in the 'civilized' first world where even the poorest of our poor live better then the squalid victims of the Congo, Even the college athlete drunk on beer, and intoxicated by his own popularity, who has raped a number of shamed and frightened girls would sicken at the very idea of forcefully sodomizing a child or woman he has no attraction to - simply to reduce them to the status of non-person, a staggering majority of rapes are crimes of passion or ego.

First and foremost, in the United States, most rapes do NOT occur walking down a dark ally or in a city park at night, though that does happen. Many rapes happen while the man is drunk, while they are kissing, cuddling, or flirting. Most rape victims know their attacker, and many were actually involved in some stage of a relationship with that person. There are still many crimes of power, and these are far more often brutal, violent and in many cases fatal. And there are many women, far more then there are men, who are raped by a random individual who selected them purely based on opportunity (as I recall 37% of women victims of rape against 11% of male victims of rape normalized to remove incarceration related incidents)

Ultimately - This is not saying that the reason for rape is dressing immodestly. And I am not implying that people should morally or socially be forced to dress in a modest fashion, but that there is scientific backing to say that in a more civilized society, where the phenomenological concept of 'Date Rape' is more prevailing - it could be a preventative measure, but certainly not the only one.
125
Rape is predation. At the least, it is an unwillingness to get outside yourself enough to realize that anything matters but your own free-wheelin' motives at the moment. It's about power. It's always about power, and choosing to place your power trip over any other objection, however pleading, desparate -- or the petrified malleability of the one whose mind is in a spin-cycle of "what if's."

Are you a rapist #120? I think, no. Are you defending your less-than-defendable lack of respectful behavior characterized by your self-described catcalls, and horndogginess on display, yes. You focus on someone else -- anyone else, instead of looking within. I'll say it again, that why they call it self-control; it's up to the person not to rape.

Certainly there are people who are unscrupulous, or misguided enough to engage in entrapment -- either willfully, or kind of falling into it. Certainly there are people who will cry rape to suit their own purposes, or making choices they weren't ready for, or really into as much as they thought. We're not talking about that. We're not there at all.

The whole point of this is that when the welcome sign is pulled, stop. Period.

And catcalls, learing, lewd gestures, grabbin' at people -- that's claiming ownership on another human being, to the extent that the action moves the person doing it. Goes back to it's all about power.

That is why folks are creeped out about your self-described catcalls, etc. That's why folks are creeped out, and incensed by your fixation on anything about the person targeted, when everyone one of us in life has a resonsibility not to rape; to not take of another's essence what isn't yours to take. Period.

You say it's a "'perception' that exists" trying to grab legitimacy of your argument, by simple expedient of other people sharing a like perspective. Make it a mob mentalitiy. That doesn't make it on point.

That's why folks are moving to take endeavours like slutwalk to shine a light on the incongruities in people fixating on whatever they disagree with in those targeted by sexual violence, and -- the second rape, over, and over again, of shaming, and heaping any amount of blame at all on the human being targeted.

Ask yourself why you are so focussed in on the behavior/dress of the one(s) targeted. Why should it be up to someone else to excersize your own self-control? Because you don't want to. You want to put that obligation outside of you.

Your catcalls are a kind of taking, taking what you want. It's that taking that is offensive. I believe it is that that motivates you to find a portion of blame outside yourself -- and those that take this taking, to raping.

Swap places. Would it make one iota of difference to your shattered soul whether you were wearing whatever you wear for struttin', or walkin grass clippings to the recycle bin in old sweats when someone incapacitates, or engages you into a hellish place of semi-existence you escape to that can take more than years to crawl back from?

Doesn't have squat to do with what you wore, or how you wore it. It's what another chose to take from you, rip it out of your soul with a tearing like your own rib was being used to violate you.

People, and their emotions are not yours -- or anyone's to take, laying claim to like a gold stake ... whether in the small, niggling portions of catcalls, or soul-tearing rape.

Self-control is something you do.

Choosing not to, is also something you do. Don't do it. Don't support it.
126
Man, that aarvark is like some sort of troll performance art.

Aardvark: "Bro", speech IS free. You can sit in your room with a hand down your pants and chatter to your self all you want—all for free. But posting bullshit on a privately owned website is not a constitutionally protected activity. You are as mistaken about that as you are about the ethics of your behavior and the shame you bring to your family.

But as many website discussion boards have found out signal to noise ratios improve drastically with only nominal fees to join. And Slog should do that. It doesn't effect your speech rights one whit.

(But Slog WON'T do that because The Stranger LOVES the noise. As much as the The Stranger would like to claim to be some level above it, just like with the Main Stream Media it often mocks, noisy dip shits are the primary target market for all advertising dollars everywhere.)

Unlike, unfortunately, reflexively acting like some barbaric twelve year old and spewing sexual harassment at women as they walk by —that activity is fully protected by our very flawed first amendment. Shame.

It's also a shame that I have no protected right to smash some stupid fucks face in when they harass my wife on the street. But I've always been more of spirit of the law kind of guy, anyway.

127
Hello there, my adorable Seattle friends!

Your best friends, the strangers & pilgrims at the Westboro Baptist Church (me included) get to come speak to you on the consequences of proud sin (AKA loving you, our neighbours: http://twitvid.com/OZ8ME)

We'll see you at the Pride Picnic, the Seattle SlutWalk, Taking Back Sunday concer & some local churches. Yay!

I'll be live-tweeting & posting FB statuses, so check it out:
@JaelPhelps, @GODH8SCampaign, @FredPhelpsQuote (many other WBC members on Twitter to - hint: I follow them)
Facebook: http://on.fb.me/fLMVeE YouTube: http://bit.ly/fNQq2K

I can't wait to see you!

Love,
Jael Phelps ;-)
128
aardvark is one of the better Trolls I have seen. In case you don't know an Internet Troll is someone who goes into charged forum topics and takes the opposite stance just to rile up the masses, even if they agree with the topic at hand. He is a good one! Most just spew chidish trash then dissapear, but this one has a quick mind and really knows how to push buttons. He or she may play WoW, but he/she (yes, it may be a woman) probably does not. Regardless, like Phelps the best thing to do is to ignore Trolls and they go away. But it is hard. As much as I don't want to snog a guy in front of the WBC neanderthals as that may distrct from the message of the Slut Walk and give the WBC shaved chimps just what they want, attention, I may not be able to help myself as I would love to have that photo! They will not care what I do as it is not possible to piss off a Calvinist, but it is more for my amusement than an attempt to mess with their minds. They don't have one to mess with anyways.

My thoughts on the topic at hand is that unwanted sexual advances from an ass grab all the way to rape are certainly not due to how a woman is dressed. I have been to the Center for Sex Positive Culture AKA The Wet Spot and even in the middle of the open area where a women is butt naked whipping her slave she is not inviting anyone to grab her naked ass. Why anyone would think a woman in a club wearing as little as possible in an effort to show the other women in the club that she is sexier then they are (which is often the case for dressing like that) means she wants strangers to molest her is something I simply cannot fathom. The excuse that men are hardwired into acting before thinking due to the "reptilian brain" is garbage. I've been to Burning Man and danced with a naked stranger and somehow was able to resist the urge to grab her boobs, even though they were nice and she was smoking hot! I'm not some special breed of man, I'm just like any other guy and it is possible to respect human boundries and have some level of decency regardless of what we are faced with. But some people simple have no level of decency I suppose. Sociopathic maniacs they are. There are a lot of those out there who seem normal enough.

And is #127 really a WBC person? Cool! I really want to kiss another guy in front of your pathetic crew and hang the photo in my house. My wife and kids would love it!
129
This really pisses me off that the WBC is protesting against something like this...I'm a rape victim so there's a personal reason why i want to participate in slutwalk and for someone to suggest that if i i weren't such a "slut" i wouldn'tve been raped is not only insulting but it's also degrading to me as a woman. I sure as hell did not ask to get raped and i sure as hell did not wake up one morning and say to myself " you know what i'm gunna go out and dress super slutty cuz i wanna get raped" thats NOT how it happens EVER. A woman who is raped is NOT at fault, her rapist is and it dosen't matter how she was dressed or how many people she's slept with in the past NO means NO. There's a video by riahanna called "man down" that addresses this same issue.
As for the WBC hate group and anyone else who thinks that women who dress like "sluts" have it coming, how would YOU feel, if you were raped?

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