To everyone who thinks that her condition can't be THAT awful if she can work and do many other "normal" activities, we have no idea where she works nor what "normal activities" are, so we have no idea if her work and normal activities are more or less strenuous than helping her husband achieve sexual satisfaction. Also, if her libido has completely dried up, "helping" her husband relieve sexual tension probably takes way more energy than it would if she were actually getting aroused. I know that the few times I've had sex when I wasn't really feeling it, it was much more painful, much more tiring, and an ordeal in general. If it feels like that every time for her, I can imagine why she wouldn't want to.
Also, for those of you who think he should divorce her before cheating... what if this woman has been battling breast cancer for the past ten years? My childhood best friend's mother battled but eventually lost to breast cancer, and it was 11 years past her diagnosis date. Do you really think it's okay for someone to divorce their wife for not performing sexually if they may or may not be dying from a slow, painful disease? We don't know that this is her situation, but it's entirely possible.
Also, to those who say that her tears are "emotional blackmail"- I'm sure she's not doing it intentionally. What probably happens is that he says something about needing more sex, she cries because she KNOWS she's not doing enough for him, but she also has no idea what she can do for him, and she doesn't want him to look outside their marriage for fear that he might get a girlfriend and realize that his life would be a million times easier if he just divorced her. He probably gives up there and reassures her that he's not leaving, that he's not going to look elsewhere, and then gives up until the next time. She probably thinks that if she keeps saying no, he'll realize it's a lost cause at some point and give up asking and just live without sex.
What he needs to do is power through that conversation. He can't give up when she starts crying. He has to find out whether their marriage is more important to her or whether his sexual fidelity is more important. If he finds out that his sexual fidelity is more important, I think he has the go ahead to cheat discreetly if he doesn't want to leave. If it turns out that the marriage is more important and she concedes that she can't keep him from having sex his whole life, I think he should submit to any demands on what outside sex looks like. But he has to force the conversation, and he has to find out what her priorities really are.
Dan's being a bit naive about what it means to go outside the relationship.
As has been mentioned above, he wants her to want him. She doesn't. One of the things people do when faced with constant rejection is withdraw and stop investing emotionally. For all intents and purposes, this guy may have already left; divorce might be only a formality.
Getting a piece on the side might only delay the inevitable. When someone who is fundamentally monogamous and has accepted rejection for a long time finally lies in the arms of someone who wants them, they will feel whole and human again in a way they had forgotten about. The likelihood of continuing to accept ongoing rejection in a marriage when acceptance is possible elsewhere is dismal.
I suspect that "going outside" works best when looking for variety. If you see women as either virgins, mothers or whores, then you may be happy to marry a "mother" and go elsewhere for a "whore." If you have a great relationship with decades of shared projects and giggles, there may be no revelation of being "made whole" when getting sexual needs met elsewhere because you are already fully accepted within your partnership. Sex in this case becomes just a detail, albeit an important one. Or maybe you like variety because you're kinky, like Erica P.
I don't think it's realistic to think that going outside for sex is going to preserve the letter-writer's marriage. I think it's going to give him the courage and confidence to leave. His wife knows it. He knows it too, otherwise he'd have done it already.
For all those pointing to our lack of knowledge about her illness and the likelihood of her suffering from depression--both of which are reasonable points--you're not acknowledging that they've had little to no sex for nearly 2 decades.
That is so unloving and unfair that her issues are irrelevant. Sympathetic, sure, but irrelelvant. Her lack of concern for her husband's well being over nearly 20 years is the primary issue.
If I truly loved a man, I cannot imagine putting his dick in a jar for 20 years no matter what illness I was suffering. Period.
@102: "Also, for those of you who think he should divorce her before cheating... what if this woman has been battling breast cancer for the past ten years? "
They've been married for 18 years and celibate for most of that, right off the bat from what he stated.
She's already left you. Divorce will just put it in writing. Move on. Invite her to come back if you still love her, but you need to go live a full life while you're waiting for her.
If you love yourself, set yourself free. If you don't leave and save yourself, you never loved yourself in the first place.
Been thinking some more and, as some have pointed out, we really know so little here.
What IS her illness, how is it being treated, and what's the prognosis? Has she discussed her lack of sexual engagement with her doctor(s)?
After more than a dozen years, it's tough to lay the blame entirely on the wife for the current situation. Whatever he is saying or not saying, he is conveying to her that he is OK with the situation.
What has his role been with regard to her illness? Has he been her caretaker? If so, that may have changed their relationship so much that it is difficult for her to behave as anything other than his "patient." He may be encouraging this without trying to (I've seen this happen.).
They need help. And they need to make some decisions. It doesn't appear she has handled this well, but, really, we have heard nothing of her side, and there are gaping contextual holes in his story (probably not intentional, possibly the result of editing) that make it difficult to have a clear picture of what's going on.
Good luck to them! No matter the outcome, they will surely need it.
At first I was going to say this inside a [troll] tag, but the wife DOES have a legitimate fear that if he has sex with someone else, either as an affair or a sanctioned "release", the chances are very good that he'll be reminded of how good it feels to connect with someone that way, and that this is something he wants to have in his romantic life, and could even fall for the person providing it (regardless of whether that person falls for him). And that as long as there IS no ultimatum, and as long as she can keep this issue from becoming one, he will stay with her because (in addition to loving her) he's viscerally forgotten what it's like to experience that level of intimacy.
Find a discreet, not-crazy callgirl who won't mess up your already messy life. DO NOT get a girlfriend. My biggest concern with you seeking a secondary relationship is that you may find someone who is as emotionally needy as your wife because it's the type of relationship that you're used to.
I understand some of where you are coming from, having been married for more than 20 years. After our 2nd child, and before our 20th, we got in the habit of not having sex. Since I had no qualms about taking care of my own needs, and would never have sex with anyone other than my wife, that worked for years. OTOH, come vacation time my wife would turn back into the passionate lover I've come to worship. Believe me, I know that w/o those vacation breaks I would've been miserable, but I would've stayed. As long as all the other parts of our relationship worked, I couldn't justify leaving. But that is the kind of intensely personal decision that only you can make, because sex is only a minor part of what makes up the days of your life together. Because even without sex, your life together can be loving and sustaining. It's just that with an active, passionate sex-life it can be so much better...
I stated that it worked for years because I decided after our 20th anniversary that life was too short to wait for vacations. Initially I went over board, but we worked with a sex councilor to establish a better relationship, and better balances for our needs. It shouldn't be a revalation, but yeah you can have a family and have mind blowing sex after the age of 40. Believe me when I say that I am blessed, and, as much as it pains me to say it, would still feel that way if it was w/o sex because of the chance to live life with my wife.
In the end it keeps coming back to what you need in your life.
One of my favorite bits of Dan advice ever was when he told some guy that once straight people start considering oral and handjobs sex, they'll start having a lot more sex. This guy sounds awfully focused on penis-in-vagina sex, if her high functioning illness is killing all sex for them because she can't do that. And if she's the one refusing to give him alternate forms of sexual intimacy, then as a monogamist myself, I would tell this guy to quit letting his wife get away with the sickness excuse already. Its not doing him or her any favors to paint the situation that way.
There is way too much in the unknown department here, including how long this marriage has really been sexless (yes, I know he says for most of it, but he could be exaggerating), how long the wife has been ill, the nature of her illness, and whether she can ever hope to recover.
But it seems to me that monogamy doesn't equal forced celibacy. Marriage vows aren't or shouldn't be a straightjacket and chastity belt in one. A partner who refuses any and all kinds of sexual intimacy and expects the other not to find that solace elsewhere and furthermore cries if the topic is even broached is being unfair and selfish and indeed, practicing emotional blackmail.
I'm all too aware that the wife's fears that the letter writer would fall in love with any woman he'd have a sexual relationship with are valid--the poor guy is starving for physical, spiritual, sexual, and emotional bonding with another person: a real psychic need and one which she is denying him out of hand.
The emotional and psychological effects of an ongoing and total sexual rejection are profound, and not addressed by telling the letter writer to jerk off more (I'm sure he's masturbating a lot already). The closeness and intimacy are worth so much more than just the sexual release. He (and she, too) needs to feel wanted, to feel desired, to feel as if they share something besides chores and dinner and bills and a history and (perhaps) parental joys and responsibilities. They both need to feel cherished and sexy by the other. They need to feel that sweet, blissful heaviness as sleep takes over after they are sexually satisfied. Not every day, of course, and they need to accommodate whatever limits the wife's illness and debility impose, but if she's just "over" sex, that isn't fair to him or to their marriage.
I'm not a monogamist, necessarily, though I get jealous of the primacy of a a bond, and prefer my sexual non-exclusivity to take the part of threesomes and moresomes or adventures at sex clubs, rather than as a truly open marriage. But this man didn't sign up for a life devoid of sexual intimacy when he married and he deserves to experience the joy of sex with another person. And yet I have serious issues with the idea of cheating or going outside the marriage non-consensually in order to (as Dan puts it) "stay sane." I speak from experience.
Here's the thing: I once had a marriage I described as perfect except for the sex. My problems weren't the same as the letter writers, but after years of trying to address them in similar ways (couples' counseling, emotional discussion, trying to do without fulfilling sex) I decided to "get my needs met" elsewhere.
Initially, I felt that that’s exactly what this affair did. I was happier, more relaxed. I no longer looked to my husband to satisfy me, and so his failure or refusal to try and meet my needs/desires no longer mattered. And for the first time in about 15 years, I felt desired and desirable, powerful aphrodisiacs. The sex was great—so great that I finally realized what I was missing and what was possible.
I never felt guilty; I had stated my intention (even though I know that my husband didn’t think I’d go through with it), and I felt like my conscience was clear. But what happened was that there was so much I couldn’t share with my husband. Obviously the facts of the affair could not be shared, nor could the details. If I heard a funny story from my bf, and wanted to repeat it, I had to make up someone to attribute it to. There were experiences I was having that I couldn’t talk about, and they weren’t all merely sexual. And even the sex: there were particular acts that I hadn’t done before but that we tried and I liked, and I didn’t know how to try and incorporate them into the infrequent sex I was still having with my husband—how to explain where I had learned that I liked them? After a while, the sex I had with my husband became even more unsatisfying, because now I had something wonderful to compare it against, and it came up so short. So I pulled further and further away from my husband emotionally, and after a while, it just became easier to not try to share any of my emotional or inner life with him—so much couldn’t be explained or accounted for without knowledge of what was becoming the most important relationship in my life besides my children. After a while, the distance between us just seemed un-bridge-able.
Well, I can only experience fantastic sex with someone who thinks I am the cat’s pajamas and tells me so and brings me little gifts and makes me laugh and is a nice person and a smart guy for so long before . . . I fell in love. As a married woman. To a married man, who was not my husband. And the love I felt for my husband, once so strong and robust, died a slow, oxygen-deprived death, like a limb cut off by a tourniquet. I, who had entered into this affair thinking that my marriage was perfect save for one small detail, and only wanting to have fun, came to want to leave my house and have my bf leave his wife and have us be together in a legitimate way. But the bf , though he loved me, didn’t want to leave his marriage, and was terrified that he’d lose the love of his children if he left their mother.
My bf was finally—somewhere in our 4th year together—overcome by his guilt and the fear of what would happen if he were caught. We broke it off.
And I thought: I can’t go on with my marriage without the escape/relief that the affair provided. I don’t want to have another affair: although I feel in my heart that I am a good person, I know that in society’s eyes I am a bad person; my actions, were they to be found out, would cause a lot of people—good, undeserving people—pain. I’ve put the friends of mine that know about this affair in an uncomfortable moral position: they love me so they feel compelled to take my side and support me in something that they would under any other circumstances, find reprehensible. I won’t do that again. I want to live with integrity, to look in the mirror and see someone the world approves of. I want all my relationships to be able to be public. But I can’t go back to a marriage in which my sexual self is so denied. And I don’t want to hurt my children, and for such a selfish reason! I had already gone round and round about leaving my marriage for several years, but with the solace of the affair, I was able to put up with it. Now, I just couldn’t do it. A few days after my clandestine bf and I broke up, I told my husband I wanted a divorce. He begged me to stay. We went to counseling (again). We talked about opening up the marriage. But I knew it was over. It was the worst nine months of my life, a bitter gestation. Finally, we agreed to open the marriage (the suggestion came in desperation from my husband; I, having been through an affair and realizing that I might well fall in love with a new partner, especially since I no longer felt the same kind of love for my husband, didn’t want to do it!) Finally, I said let’s open it, and started making plans to look for new partners. When he was confronted with the reality of me actually looking to be non-monogamous, he decided he couldn’t deal with it, after all, and told me we should end the marriage. By the way, I never told him about the affair and he never directly asked. I think it was a case of don’t ask, don’t tell all along, but I couldn’t see the point in telling him once it was all water under the bridge. It would just cause more pain. So he still doesn’t “know,” though I wouldn’t be surprised if he “knew.”
So three years ago, we split up. I often was wracked with guilt at having been the cause for the end of my children’s “perfect” childhood and domestic/family life, just so I could selfishly look for sexual satisfaction. My ex and I were miraculously able to stay friends. I was often lonely, but I never questioned my decision.
I remember when I told my mother I was leaving my marriage. I told her I wanted a relationship that was more fulfilling. She asked, “what if you don’t find one?” I said, “I may not find one. But I KNOW I don’t have a chance of having it as long as I stay married to ------. This way, there’s a chance.”
I am currently dating a man who comes from a marriage much like so many of these sexless marriages we're talking about. He is everything I was looking for. He is amazed to find a smart, kind, funny, sane woman who loves sex, and kinky sex, as much as he does—he didn’t think they existed.
I can't advise the letter writer to preserve his sanity by having an affair, because after having been deprived and starved for so long, I think the chances are high that he won't be willing to just keep having sex "on the side." He will want the whole thing: a loving relationship that includes sex. And he deserves it.
So I would advise this guy to try one last time to talk honestly and perhaps painfully with his wife. Surely something as important as this deserves it, even if she does cry and try to cut off the discussion. He should let her know how much he loves her, how much is missing in his life and how much he wants that lack fulfilled by and with HER--and then, should she be completely unwilling to fulfill him in any way at all, he should leave and live his life with integrity. I wish them both well, and know how agonizing this is.
This isn't a monogamous relationship. She has, in effect, castrated him and forced him into unwanted celibacy. "I won't have sex with you, and won't allow you to have sex with anyone else, and I won't talk about it," for most of 18 years, is not an acceptable position. That's bullshit, no matter how sick she is. If she will not budge from this, then divorce is the only solution.
If I were to put on a monogamust hat, which is, after all, the question, I'd say that there aren't enough details. I'd want to go into who's broken which promises both in letter and in spirit. I'd also want to find out what on the wife's part is can't and what is won't, as Ms B points out so well in #65. If I absolutely had to make a guess, I'd say that at some point he just started sucking up more than he knew he ought or more than he was really capable of managing, and it snowballed from there until her illness was firmly driving the relationship (once agree I agree with Ms Kim, which I hope does not reflect poorly on her).
I know whose commentary I'd like to see on this situation. This letter reminds me just a little of the letter from the woman who could have sex with her boyfriend but not her husband six months or so after a sexual assault. The situations aren't all that similar (especially as it was a poly marriage in the earlier letter), but there were some commenters who took the line that noone ever has a *right* to have sex with one's spouse and that the husband was obliged to suck it up indefinitely until the wife was ready to resume. Now, granted, there was certainly a case to be made that the husband in the case was not a prize, but I wished at the time that those commenters might have given a vague time line at which they would have thought it reasonable for a spouse's issues about having to continue to suck it up to be taken seriously. At any rate, I'd like to see what those commenters would say here, because letters like this one seem a possible sequel to letters like the other one if Suck It Up is the beginning and end of the answer. It seems as if something might have been done at some point.
Please know that I don't think you ever were a bad person. You're all things wonderful and frail that we humans are. I'm glad you found peace and someone to share joy with. I wish you and your's more joy.
EricaP, I've been following your story for the past year or so, and hope only for the best for you and your husband. I admire your honesty and attempts to try and work out a happy solution. I hope your husband appreciates what a rare wife you are.
I have to say I resent some of the comments from monogamist haters. Not all people in a monogamous relationship are religious zealots. For some, myself included (I'm an atheist, BTW), monogamy is just what we've chosen for the relationship we're in. We fully acknowledge the fact that it doesn't work for everyone and that there are many different types of successful relationships. Jumping to the conclusion that you know what a monogamist would say about this and that it would be the most insensitive, closed-minded "solution" is in-and-of-itself, insensitive and closed-minded.
I have to point out something said in Dan's post: "...to say nothing of emotional violence that 15+ years of constant sexual rejection represents..."
Are we going to call extended periods of sexual rejection a form of violence? If that's the case, what's the remedy? Who's the perpetrator? In the context of a monogamous marriage, this is pretty clear, but what about people who just can't convince other people to have sex with them? Prostitution is risky and probably unsatisfying for someone seeking genuine intimacy. I'm a little concerned about what the implications of this thinking are, not disagreeing with it.
In the case of the guy in the letter, I think he ought to try going to a therapist, a sex therapist specifically, if only so he has a safe, neutral space to explain to his wife exactly how he feels. He obviously values his marriage; DTMFA seems callous after eighteen years of matrimony. I think the wife deserves one last chance to try and work it out, hopefully with some emotional support and practical advice from a professional. It seems to me that she's just as broken up about this as he is, and it might take a good while for her to deal with whatever the issue is. If he's willing to try and make it work with her, I think that's the best possible outcome.
If she simply can't have a sexual life with her husband, then it's time for them to negotiate new rules. If she wants to keep her husband, she's going to have to recognize that he's a sexual being, that sexuality is a critical component of human happiness for the vast majority of people, and that she's hurting him by denying him the consolation of a fulfilling sexual life. A therapist could probably be more firm and articulate about this problem than her husband, who has clearly been walking on eggshells about this issue for a long time. There are a lot of ways to negotiate an open marriage, and maybe having a third party as a mediator will help her be more reasonable about this. I'm willing to bet something along the lines of "never in the house, never so I have to hear about it, never more than once a week/month, never spend the night," would give her the control she needs.
If she is unwilling to try anything under any circumstances, then her husband should divorce her. I don't think he should cheat on the sly -- if she's as fragile as he says she is, that would ruin her. I think living honestly and with integrity means confronting the issue. I also think that it's premature to indict the wife in question. If we take the writer at his word (which we should), his wife seems just as frustrated and upset about the situation as he is. She is terrified of losing her husband, she's probably frustrated with the otherness of her own body, and I bet she misses sex as much as he does. For whatever reason, though, she hasn't been able to go there. She does owe him at least a few visits to a sex therapist and a good faith effort to create a long-term solution.
Masturbate, get fatter and fatter, take high blood pressure meds. and anti-depressants to kill your libido and voilà, problem solved: now nobody wants to have sex. Worked for me!
You nor I nor anybody else here can properly comment without knowing what her illness is and why she can't fuck but can do a lot of other things. Is it that she can't like sex? Has she always not liked sex? Is she just withholding for some other reason? Is there no cure to her illness?
They both need to go to a sex positive therapy to find out what is most important to them. Then figure out what you need to do.
It's called ***masturbation*** (and keep working at communications w/ your wife). I *get* that orgasms aren't optional---but why does that require cheating on your partner (I include coercing an "open" relationship as cheating)? Wank it out!
@126 and others...There is a LOT of humanity in an embrace and a good fuck. Sex is a good part of human connection and sanity. Without sex, many people's emotional needs aren't being met. If sex and intimacy weren't part of human connection, monogamy wouldn't be as important to people as it is. But, if sex and intimacy are so unimportant that a lifetime of enforced non-sexuality is so easily tolerable, then why is monogamy so important to you?
If he has told her his needs are not being met, and she has declined to satisfy his needs in any way, then he has the answer he needs: seek sex elsewhere. He should find an empathetic, sane, and undemanding partner outside his marriage and enjoy himself but he needs to make sure he keeps himself and his new partner clear on relationship boundaries and that is a lot harder to do that type.
masturbation is no substitute for sex with a live human being.
If he has told her his needs are not being met, and she has declined to satisfy his needs in any way, then he has the answer he needs: seek sex elsewhere. He should find an empathetic, sane, and undemanding partner outside his marriage and enjoy himself but he needs to make sure he keeps himself and his new partner clear on relationship boundaries and that is a lot harder to do that type.
masturbation is no substitute for sex with a live human being.
If non-monogamy is a deal breaker for her, he should get a divorce. He says the wife would almost certainly divorce him anyway if she found out he was cheating, which she probably would. They should save themselves the additional heartbreak of that revelation by just divorcing now. Yes, they love each other, but neither of them is happy in the marriage. Love isn't always enough.
Why is she doing this to him? A loving supporting husband of many years and she is torturing him year after year? She should be in jail for cruel punishment, physical abuse, assault and battery of spouse, misuse of marriage etc.
How dare you, you bitch! So many women around the world would do about anything to have a spouse like yours and instead of treasure him, you tortured him during many, many years.
To the husband - divorce this lying excuse of a wife and go out and fuck your way around the globe!
Here is Dan using an extreme example to justified his own behavior. but, as a monogamist, i go with divorce, if you are not emotionally or sexually satisfied, and you have tried to work on it, is time to end it. life is short. And I find the wife as manipulative as Dan was to get Terry into his monogamish relationship.
Hold your wife while you masturbate. Don't ask. Just do it. Have your wife hold you while you masturbate. Whisper in her ear that you love her and that she is sexy. This is a low pressure activity that doesn't pressure her to feel "sexy" if she can't do that.
I am not monogamous personally, but if I were, I would be monogamous with the understanding that people get sick. So that means if one person can't have sex, then neither can. I geuss this is why I don't do monogamy. If I did choose to do monogamy, it wouldn't be case of "only while it's convenient".
While I can't speak for monogamusts, this looks like a case for divorce. A little bit on the side is not going to fix this marriage. In any divorce there are practical concerns which must be addressed: house, kids, insurance, etc., and it is never convenient. He does say she is able to do normal things like work, but if she were dependent for health insurance, they could still have a "functional" divorce: legally married but living separate lives.
It's best to choose honestly when possible.
I would advise him to get in a time machine and leave her 15 years ago. Short of that leave her now. She sounds like a selfish, awful, manipulative asshole.
If he can't bring himself to leave her now then at least cheat on her.
I don't care for the phrase "required reading" very much but @113 (nocutename) is something everyone should read to the end. It is essential for monogamists to recognize that not all people are like them. It is equally essential for cheat-ists (if I may refer to Dan's viewpoint that way) to recognize that not all people are like them.
Have you tried that? When I did that I came to the uncomfortable realization that I, in fact, need both hands free to get off. In addition trying to ignore that only one of you is breathing heavy, making weird sounds and faces, and not making a mess on her is really distracting. I don't recommend it.
It doesn't matter what her illness is, because the issue is not her illness. The issue is her "all about me" ness. She is fine with him going without sex for the rest of their lives - that's the problem. There is a solution to their problem, but in order to get to it, she has to be as invested in his happiness as he is in hers. She has to be willing to help look for the solution - whether it be some form of physical intimacy that does not involve intercourse, or her participation on some fashion in his masturbation, or him going outside the marriage, or who knows what they could come up with if they both tackled the subject in good faith. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would give the guy something, which appears to be all he needs - something.
Instead, not only has she unilaterally ended his sex life along with her own, she refuses to talk about it. In what definition of marriage is that OK?
You say your wife can be jealous. Has she always been so or has that only cropped up since she has been ill?
Jealousy usually stems from insecurity. If she feels unsexy she may be feeling, since you need sex so much ("I am very sexual and have always been so") and this is something she feels that she cannot give you, that if you have any sex with anyone else you will immediately run out on her.
You said you would accept any sort of sex. Will your wife give blowjobs? Handjobs? Anything?
My guess, and it's just a guess, that at least 2 possible scenarios playing out here.
Scenario 1) You and your wife truly love each other and want to stay together. Reassure her that you want sex, but the sex is so much better for you if she is a part of it in any way she can. See if you wife would lay in bed with you and kiss you while you jerk off. If that goes well have her get more involved with a handjob and blowjob. She might not want a dick in her vagina because of pain, but surely she can lick and suck cock and balls. This might not be as much as you'd want with vaginal intercourse, but at least it would be something. It might also help your wife realize that you want your sexual life to be with her.
You might also want to try go back to counseling (a different counselor), but maybe try some communication classes too (Crucial Conversations changed my life for the better.)
Scenario 2) You are fooling yourself if you think your wife loves you. I've encountered a lot of recently divorced wives and soon to be divorced wives who realized that they didn't love their husbands anymore (if they ever did). They are often scared and not sure what to do and hold on to the marriage for a few years before they actually take action towards a divorce. During this time, they are miserable and they do a lot of searching for clues as to why the marriage isn't working. The sad thing is that the husbands are usually clueless to their spouse's unhappiness and are floored when the wife asks for a divorce.
If you suspect scenario 2 might be the situation, ask yourself:
Is your wife financially dependent upon you? Does she have a lot of her "own" friends that she can spend time with or is she dependent upon you for most of your socializing? Are their school-aged kids involved?
These would be some of the common considerations a wife might be pondering when thinking of leaving her husband.
I hope that yours is scenario 1, but if not good luck. I'm a big believer in monogamy for most people (myself included), but I'd rather be alone that in a bad relationship. For some years now, yours has been in a bad place.
You say your wife can be jealous. Has she always been so or has that only cropped up since she has been ill?
Jealousy usually stems from insecurity. If she feels unsexy she may be feeling, since you need sex so much ("I am very sexual and have always been so") and this is something she feels that she cannot give you, that if you have any sex with anyone else you will immediately run out on her.
You said you would accept any sort of sex. Will your wife give blowjobs? Handjobs? Anything?
My guess, and it's just a guess, that at least 2 possible scenarios playing out here.
Scenario 1) You and your wife truly love each other and want to stay together. Reassure her that you want sex, but the sex is so much better for you if she is a part of it in any way she can. See if you wife would lay in bed with you and kiss you while you jerk off. If that goes well have her get more involved with a handjob and blowjob. She might not want a dick in her vagina because of pain, but surely she can lick and suck cock and balls. This might not be as much as you'd want with vaginal intercourse, but at least it would be something. It might also help your wife realize that you want your sexual life to be with her.
You might also want to try go back to counseling (a different counselor), but maybe try some communication classes too (Crucial Conversations changed my life for the better.)
Scenario 2) You are fooling yourself if you think your wife loves you. I've encountered a lot of recently divorced wives and soon to be divorced wives who realized that they didn't love their husbands anymore (if they ever did). They are often scared and not sure what to do and hold on to the marriage for a few years before they actually take action towards a divorce. During this time, they are miserable and they do a lot of searching for clues as to why the marriage isn't working. The sad thing is that the husbands are usually clueless to their spouse's unhappiness and are floored when the wife asks for a divorce. I bring up this scenario because if she truly loves you I think she would want to try and please you sexually somehow (like in some of my above suggestions). If she is not willing to do that then she may have some other issues with sex or with you that are much thornier.
If you suspect scenario 2 might be the situation, ask yourself:
Is your wife financially dependent upon you? Does she have a lot of her "own" friends that she can spend time with or is she dependent upon you for most of your socializing? Are there school-aged kids involved?
These would be some of the common considerations a wife might be pondering when thinking of leaving her husband.
I hope that yours is some version of scenario 1. I'm a big believer in monogamy for most people (myself included), but I'd rather be alone that in a bad relationship. For some years now, yours has been in a bad place.
Good luck!
Sorry, I couldn't read on any further, but it took until @27 for someone to answer Dan's question. I agree with @27, "monogomusts" would say "for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health...forsaking all others..." and all those lovely words that come with the marriage ceremony. I should know, I've spoken them myself, twice. The words have significance, but only when everybody has all their chips in the pot, the wife here does not! She's not fulfilling her vows, "forsaking all others" comes with a quid pro quo "I won't fuck anyone else, but I'll fuck you".
The guy should DTMFA! She works, she does her motherly duties, she cleans the house, but she can't fuck once in a blue moon? BULLSHIT!!! Everybody can do something, Stephen Fucking Hawking, can at least use his vibraphone voicebox to tell his wife a dirty story while she fucks herself with a big black dildo. This woman does nothing and will always do nothing with him. Divorce the game playing bitch and I'll bet you the farm that she'll somehow find a way to fuck someone else, at least until that sucker marries her lazy ass and she goes back to withholding sex from him too.
I have to roll my eyes at those saying that no sex but masturbation is good enough.
If you got married and your spouse said, "hey, we're not having sex ever again but that's okay because I can jack off any time I want" you'd respond, "you sick, damaged fuck!". But you seem oblivious to the fact that you're the sick, damaged fuck because you're the one who is saying, "hey, we're not having sex ever again because you can jack off any time you want".
@137, on your advice I began reading @113 right up to the point where I began to vomit! The letter writer is a dude, not a woman. He doesn't want to cuddle, he wants to fuck. He doesn't want a bond of intimacy, he wants to fuck, he wants to stick his pussy hungry cock in a wet hole and blow his load all over her open mouth. He can cuddle with his wife, he wants to fuck, not make love, but fuck.
I love reading your letters to this blog, and their responses. Being only one person, and having only one experience set, it takes me to many places I couldn't get to otherwise in my quest to make myself and my monogamous relationship better. No person going into marriage these days should be limited to do or die mentality because rigidity hurts success. Perfection is the enemy of the good, as evidenced by the higher divorce rate in the bible belt versus the blue states.
I went into my marriage with the possibility that my wife wasn't a person I could spend the rest of my life with, but that she could be. Over time we both made significant discoveries as to what our needs were. Not the least of which were delightful experiments in being sex partners and finding what turns us on. You should notice I mention change, because accepting change is what makes our bond stronger. I had a high school friend ask me if I thought my life was over after the birth of our oldest child. I considered that idea carefully because it seemed outrageous, and true. My life was over as a non-parent, but that didn't mean it wasn't better.
Monogamy, like any relationship, works when it makes the participants a safe and nourishing environment of the kind you need to weather the problems that will occur. Problems like dead or dieing parents/sibs/friends, financial loss, children (sick or healthy), or the shit that sticks between your toes when you walk in your yard. Sex is great, wonderful, and delightful. But if your daughter comes down with a power booting bug the day you have to give a presentation at work, and your partner is working out-of-town, sex really isn't important. OTOH if the sleepy, cuddling sex you had before your partner left makes the difference in keeping you centered, then it becomes crucial. It's all up to you.
It's all up to you.
It is a blessing and a privilege to be my wife's partner. My marriage has been my saving grace countless times because I am a very flawed individual, just like my wife, children, family members, etc.. I have had the good fortune to not reach a breaking point in my marriage, but if the LW has then getting out could be a better option.
Peace.
and the real goal is a safe, fulfilling environment
@27 Thank you for your polite and constructive comments. But I have a clarification question for you and those (like @46) who agree with you on the “for better for worse” argument:
-> What do you think a spouse should do when the other breaks the vows?
For instance, if he were to cheat on her openly would you tell her to “suck it up” because it is part of the “for better for worse, etc.?” I ask this because it is undeniable from the points Dan presents that:
-> SHE has BROKEN her vows first. He is just struggling with how to cope with the betrayal.
As a few posters have noted (@96 said it best), monogamy is not the same as celibacy and marriage vows have always been interpreted in “traditional” Western culture to require the first word of “sexually exclusive” as well as the second. (A point made powerfully by @59.)
So, I wonder:
-> If the shoe was on the other foot, and he was a philandering, skirt-chasing, illegitimate baby fathering husband who claimed he couldn’t help it because he had a sickness, who wouldn’t even tolerate talk about his affairs, and therapy had failed to change the situation, would you be telling her to “suck it up,” that this was part of what she signed on for?
After our 2nd child, and before our 20th, we got in the habit of not having sex...OTOH, come vacation time my wife would turn back into the passionate lover I've come to worship. Believe me, I know that w/o those vacation breaks I would've been miserable, but I would've stayed.
I'm going to assume you meant to say "before our 20th anniversary" not 20th child. If I'm wrong: a) I guess the last 18 were conceived while on vacation (?) and b) if she was pregnant for 75% of the time over 2 decades and also had to take care of all of those kids, you should consider yourself lucky getting as much as you did.
As an aside: We find it fascinating how many people here are saying “oh well, we really need more information; we don’t have all the facts; we need to know more about her illness, they’re therapy, etc.”
Not that we disagree – there is some fair caution and good integrity in this point. But we find it particularly interesting because when we made the same point about another letter a year ago (The Bad Husband, June 10, 2010) we were bitterly attacked by most on this board. And that was not a case – as this is – where Dan explicitly asked people to comment on just the facts as given and not explore the assumptions.
Apparently it is more acceptable to reserve judgment on a wife whose husband claims she is emotionally blackmailing him into celibacy then it is to reserve judgment on a husband whose wife claims he is humiliating her by being open and forward about his kink to others. Fascinating, if a bit disappointing.
But, for the LW: If you have exhausted every other reasonable option, then tell her that she has to acknowledge that you need a sexual outlet -- and if she refuses to concede that point, then she should be the one to file for divorce. But tough it out until you reach that point, so you can truthfully say you haven't cheated. That may be the best way to maintain the sympathies of your friends, family and divorce court judge.
@27, if I shared your views of what marriage means, I would have to make a solemn vow and commitment to myself never to get married. The kind of marriage you describe may be doable for saints and martyrs, but it's no life for a human being.
I think that your use of the "for better or worse" argument shows a poorly thought out notion of what that vow really means. I don't think people say it to mean that they will stay married to a spouse who is choosing to make them unhappy. I think it means that they will stay married regardless of the terrible circumstances the couple may find themselves in - things that the external world does to them. "For better or worse" doesn't give married people carte blanche to make each other miserable.
And this man's wife is choosing to make her husband miserable. Her illness is an external, involuntary thing that has happened to her/them, but her refusal to have sex is a problem of her own making. Illness is not a good excuse for what she's doing to her husband. Even if she has lost her libido or finds intercourse painful or doesn't enjoy being touched in a sexual way, she should still be willing to provide Dan's oft-recommended loving assist. "To love/comfort/cherish" is in traditional wedding vows, too, right?
If you won't acknowledge sex as a "need," I think you can at least agree that this man *desperately* wants it, and that going without is painful. His wife should love and cherish him enough to help ease his pain and desperation.
@ 151, what if she refuses to do either? She just might. She also might take the stance of "Well sure, you *deserve* a sexual outlet, but I didn't *deserve* to get sick, either." My point is that she could very easily not change anything and still not file for divorce.
For what its worth, an implied, but actually standard component of monogamy is that exclusivity also implies availability. Which is to say, as part of the deal, sex is expected. How much, how often, when, is all negotiable, but monogamy is not abstinence.
So, if you believe that monogamy is a part of marriage, than in the situation described above, the marriage has already failed. And as someone who believes that monogamy is a very good thing, and while hard, not nearly as hard as advertised (at least not any harder than any other sort of fidelity), I don't actually find this non-hypothetical situation at all in tension with monogamy. It is actually a problem that is caused by marriages, in general.
Real life situations like this are tragedies, and what needs to be done for this guy is not "to stay sane" but to "stay happy." His sex-related problem isn't one of release, its one of misery, part and parcel of being stuck, because of his loyalty to his wife's needs and wants, and it sounds like not his dedication to the institution of marriage, in an unhappy situation. If keeping himself in some way unhappy, in order to keep his wife happy, ultimately makes him more happy than the alternative, then that is what he should do.
Monogamy is like any other "shall not" norm. You shall not kill, you shall not steal, you shall not cheat. And if I'm starving, and my victim is wealthy? I'm still stealing, and my victim is still a victim. But it may be the least wrong thing to do. The price of having a norm like monogamy is to say that if the husband in the situation above get sex elsewhere, he is still sympathetic, we understand why he's doing what he's doing, the wife is not a blameless victim, and what he still did is wrong.
As a "monogamist", this one's a no-brainer: DTMFA. She insists he not have sex with anyone else, but hasn't been interested in having sex with him for, apparently, over a decade, and yet is "terrified" of him leaving her? If he even raises the subject of sex she attacks him verbally? That's sure some way of showing your "love" for someone! And she "loves" him ever so much yet she's left him in no doubt she'd divorce him in a heartbeat if he ever didn't obey her demands?
She's a lying, manipulative, abusive piece of shit and he should get the hell out of there now.
Oh, and if I'm a "monogamist", does that make you an anti-monogamist, Dan?
Telling this guy that the "in sickness and in health" part of the marriage vows include putting up with a sexless marriage is a little like telling a woman whose husband constantly goes out and blows all their money on a bunch of stupid crap she hates, hey, the vows said "for richer or poorer," so if his spending habits are bankrupting you, you're just going to have to put up with it. I'm sorry, no. If sexual exclusivity is at the heart of a monogamous marriage, then refusing sex (and especially if that includes alternate forms of intimacy, as appears to be the case with the letter writer) is a form of infidelity. Even Christian marriage counselors point to the advice of St. Paul in 1 Corinthians that married couples ought not abstain from sex lest one or both partners be tempted. If illness, accidents, pregnancy, etc., puts one partner in a position of either not wanting or being unable to have sex, it is incumbent upon _them_ to make sure their unencumbered partner is still being satisfied, whether that's through alternative forms of intimacy or some other mutually-agreed upon arrangement.
I personally believe that there are only two long-term tenable approaches to marriage: (1) complete monogamy where both partners are sexually satisfied or at least trying to satisfy each other or (2) open and honest non-monogamy where both partners are allowed to have sex outside the relationship. (Allowed = opportunity, not guaranteed sex). Yes, there are some variations that work for a small minority of people (e.g., cuckhold fetishists or where the woman has zero interest in sex but gives hubby permission to get sex outside the marriage), but by and large, the vast humans can only really function in one type or the other as they are the only forms where there is equality between the partners.
This man is not in either position. He's in a marriage where he can't have sex at all. That's cruel and ultimately untenable.
As for what to do, I'm opposed to him staying and seeking sex outside. Why? Because this isn't just about sex. Reading his letter, I think what he wants isn't just to get his rocks off, but to have a lover. Thus, the only way he can be truly fulfilled is to have a full-blown mistress. If he does that, I really don't think he can be fair to both women. If his wife were fully-functional and just hated sex, then maybe. I say maybe because most humans think they can give enough to more than one person...and they can, but only if it's not done on the sly. The mere act of keeping it secret requires too much damn energy. I have never seen a person that could do this and be fair to both partners. So who should get the short end of the stick? The sick wife or the mistress?
Going to a pro or having one-night stands isn't going to cut it. It would do so if his wife were an intimate partner in all areas except sex. I could be reading this wrong, but it seems to me they are partners in the business end of marriage, but not the emotional/physical/sexual aspects.
So, in the end, if he wants to be truly satisfied, he needs to leave. He loves his wife and wants to take care of her. This is noble. If they are not having sex and there are no children, I see nothing he is doing for the wife that he could not do as a friend.
The ONLY two reasons to stay and cheat are (1) there's no way to keep her insured otherwise and insurance is really important and (2) social stigma.
As for the social stigma angle: If he leaves her, but continues to support her and be with her as often as she needs, the stigma of leaving a sick woman will be minimal. It's not like he's divorcing her and throwing her to the wolves.
So, unless there's a absolute, insurmountable insurance problem, leave her and stay her friend and supporter. Because that's all he is now. He's not really a husband to her.
This actually sounds tantamount to a gay may married to a woman who is not being fulfilled by his wife sexually. Monogamists would say to stay and not give into your baser instincts in that context. They would say it here as well. Since he's a monogamist, that is what he is telling himself. I don't see a way out for him IN the marriage. She obviously hates sex. As someone stated above, who can basically live a normal life except for sex (unless she has a razor blade lodged inside her somewhere that can't be removed)? He obviously likes monogamy. Impasse. Find someone else.
"That may be the best way to maintain the sympathies of your friends, family and divorce court judge."
FYI, while some states do consider infidelity in awarding spousal support, it would not matter in this case, because of the length of the marriage and her health condition. Those two factors alone are going to mean he's going to support her the rest of her life (unless she's loaded or has a high-paying job or she remarries). So I would not worry about divorce court.
If he's worried about the sympathies of friends and family, the thing that matters most is how he treats her after the divorce. If he supports her financially, practically (e.g., taking her to doctor's appointments), and emotionally, he probably will be viewed as a saint and not a villan.
I want more information not because it will mean that I judge him differently based on how he chooses to act. It would mean I would understand the situation better and be able to advise him on what to do.
I would like to know:
(1) Is she affectionate AT ALL? Does she cuddle, etc? (i.e., is it only sex he is missing, or is he missing a lover and affectionate partner?)
(2) How is their emotional intimacy?
(3) Do they have an intellectually intimate relationship? Is this important to him?
(4) Just how bad is her illness? Can she take care of herself on a day-to-day basis or does she need a partner or home care?
(4) Can she support herself or is she always going to be dependent financially? Does he have the means to support two households if they divorce?
(5) Can they get insurance for her if they divorce or do they need to stay married for that reason alone?
(6) Does she have family and friends that could take over some of the supporting roles he has been playing?
I could go on, but I think this is sufficient to paint the picture.
None of this bears on the justification for cheating or not. None of it bears on whether seeking sex outside the marriage would even be cheating in this situation. It does bear on whether or not he can leave her without feeling guilty and without supporting her the rest of her life anyway.
See, if she is totally dependent on him and really needs him, better to stay married and seek an outside source for this part of his needs. If she isn't totally dependent and he can take care of her sufficiently after the divorce, then he should leave.
It isn't about judging his actions, but about seeing what his options are.
So, Dan thinks this is some "gotcha" for the "monogamusts", because (let us grant) this guy isn't doing anything wrong, yet is forced into a celibate marriage without even the possibility of discussing options with his spouse. Let's be clear: in last week's column, Dan immediately recommended going outside the relationship to a guy who was in no way, shape, or form in this situation, and he chastised another guy for being reluctant to visit a sex worker without his wife. So when Dan advises people not to be monogamous, it certainly doesn't have to be a crisis situation like this, where there's absolutely no sex at all in a lengthy marital relationship!
Dan is also conflating "the adultery-is-always-wrong crowd" with the "monogamust" crowd in his query. I think adultery is always wrong, but I don't think divorce is always wrong. So if you feel circumstances are so desperate that cheating is a live option, then you ought to be willing to consider either divorce or working out terms of an open relationship that your partner knows about. Cheating is never the way to do it.
This letter writer says that fidelity matters to him--and obviously, if he's stuck it out this long! So if he cheats, he gets to feel like an asshole who betrayed his own ideals, he has to worry about lying and covering his lies, and he has to face condemnation for what he's done when, otherwise, people would likely have great sympathy for his situation.
Or he can take the honest road that will give him either a solution or a release: demand communication about this issue. If the wife is sick, she has doctors. Why haven't they already been consulted about this? What do they say about her physical and mental capacities for sex? Can they recommend another therapist? Therapy is not a one-shot instant cure--it requires effort and sometimes visiting more than one professional until solutions are found. If the wife refuses any of this, first you let her know that you're talking to the doctors and therapist along, if she won't go. And then, with their help, you work out a plan you can feel decent about. In this case, if the wife refuses all communcation or alternative forms of sexual activity, maybe that plan is going to be divorce. And not because she was betrayed, but because she has betrayed her husband by refusing even to show concern for his needs. Because it's not only about the sex, but the love and concern you have for your partner. If one person totally stops showing that, it doesn't make it okay to cheat on them--it makes it okay to demand communication or else demand an end to the relationship".
Ill and finding sex physically painful is not the same as willfully withholding sex. Anyone who gets married or commits to a lifelong partnership may well find themselves on one side of this equation someday - caring for a sick spouse who cannot have sex, or have a spouse caring for them. The only real difference here is that the participants are relatively young, and thus have a stronger sex drive than, say, a married couple at 75 and one is very ill. My heart goes out to this man, but it is his wife who is very sick. I am sure she would love to be healthy, active, and interested in sex with her husband, and generally able to enjoy her life, which may not have been able to do for many years. Many of the respondents seem to think he is justified in cheating or divorcing but have the implicit assumption that she is mistreating him, and there's no evidence of that. I don't know the answer for either of these unfortunate souls, but I think that if a couple values monogamy, and neither is open to any other arrangement, illness should not change that calculation.
I'd say that not all counselors are created equal. If at first you don't succeed, chuck the quack, check certifications and try again.
Also, notice how counselors are human and their ideas can change over the years just like everyone else's? If the "years ago" was more than ten, then trying counseling now might be less likely to result in a "sex isn't so important"/"you're doing it wrong" dismissal of the couple's problem.
Mr. Savage, you say that while we should all accept that our partners will get older, completely neglecting one's appearance is bad. This wife seems to be neglecting her psychological appearance. She should make a reasonable effort to be sexually attractive on the inside.
If the permanence of the marriage is the top priority and monogamy - or more strictly, fidelity - is a deal breaker, then it's a closed case. He remains miserable for as long as she's in pain or until one of them dies.
However, if both partners' happiness within the bounds of monogamy is the top priority, then they exhaust all options short of adulterous encounters till one wants out. Finances, children, etc, will all adjust, and adjustment is difficult. But if one of the partners cannot ever reach happiness because of an unchangeable factor such as in this case, then begin the grieving process and separate.
(dude, you're 40. Time to lay the cards on the table. You want sex or you're out. Nothing personal, but your needs aren't being met.)
This is a great thread, and it speaks to my situation as well. Like this guy, I'm in a long-term marriage (11 years so far). My wife is ill, though not physically. She has been depressed, in my opinion, for years since the birth of our older son. Our sex life has been in a gradual state of decline for about 10 years. It wasn't like she was great in bed to begin with, and we had some really good sex in the beginning, but the boundary around what is and isn't acceptable sexual behavior between us has shrunk to the point where I'm not enjoying it anymore. At this point, I struggle to maintain an erection when we do have sex, which is usually once a month for a few minutes, missionary only, no oral, no foreplay, with her arms folded across her chest (did I forget to mention no touching her tits?). She seems to be -- and I say "seems" because she's been unwilling to discuss or deal with our sex life in any mature way or seek individual (or couples) therapy -- arrested in her sexual thinking at about age 11 or 12, when sex is interesting but still a little dirty. A few years ago, however, she did hear me out and briefly floated a suggestion that I find a girlfriend for sex. When she gave me her rules, however, it was clear to me that she wasn't serious, and I called her bullshit, then she withdrew the suggestion. But it was at that point that I decided to do what Dan advised "to stay sane." I've been seeing a much younger woman (I'm 49, she's 24) for about two years. I get to enjoy a healthy, regular, and fulfilling sex life and then go home to be with my family.
I still love my wife and hope to be with her to watch our children grow and start families of their own. But I will not be held hostage to her depression, no matter what vows I made at the altar. @ #27, my wife may be forsaking all others by not cheating, but she is forsaking her husband by withdrawing so completely. Were it not for the kids, however, I'd divorce her today. And if this guy in Dan's column doesn't have kids, I'd counsel him to run for the hills.
There are a lot of things that can go wrong with women which can cause long-term, intractable pelvic pain upon penetration. Since everything in the pelvic neighborhood is pretty close together, anatomically, anal penetration can cause pain too.
This doesn't mean the woman can't walk, or work at a desk job, or even do housework. Her pain could just come about through penetration.
It's also possible (the letter writer doesn't say) that she could have lost her birth canal entirely, let's say to cancer. Coupled with intractable pelvic pain, this would rule out anal too.
Which leads to the next question. Is this man's objection that he can't sexually penetrate his wife? If so, and if no other sex will do (i.e. no oral, no manual, no toys), then he's got a lot more of a problem than just not being able to get off.
Because if he does try to divorce her (because he just has to have that PIV penetration), there's a very good probability that he is not going to have any money to spend on escorts, or "game," or anything else - because he is going to be supporting her for the rest of her life, even if they're divorced.
To all you MRAs out there who think this is "so unfair," well, that's marriage. You don't want that level of responsibility, don't get married. (Please. Do us all a favor.)
Would those urging divorce say the same thing if it were, let's say, a man who lost his penis in an accident, and his wife were writing in, saying "I hate dildos; it has to be a warm living cock; I'm divorcing him?"
This is a fascinating thread because I swear to God I was planning on writing to Dan today with a similar question. We're coming up on a dozen years of marriage and the man I met and married, who entertained me with stories of his many varied sexual experiences, his strong sex drive and who (on days when I didn't have my kids with me) would sometimes spend entire days in bed with me no longer offers sex, often turns it down when I ask, and yet insists he's fine, nothing is wrong, and he has no issues with me.
Like another commenter, vacations are amazing-it's clear he has no problem performing. But at home-one of the kids might hear or need something, he's tired, work sucked, whatever. And this is a guy who once told me he couldn't get by as a single dude without masterbating 4 times or more a day.
Yeah we're older, yeah work does suck sometimes, yeah, our tween can be a needy pain in the ass sometimes and my older kids seem to think I'm their personal internet service but really-I have to BEG? And our kinky fun? It's been so long I don't even know where the toy bag is.
To the LW-it's not about her illness, it's about her unwillingness to even try to find a compromise. Ask for one more round of counseling and do your homework to find one who "gets" both of you and that you trust.
As for me-I love my guy-and he knocks himself out to see that we're stable and happy in so many ways. He's a great dad and he puts up with so much crap from my loser older kids that he deserves sainthood. But we're going to be having a "we need to talk" come to Jesus meeting very soon. I don't like looking at how I think that's going to go and it breaks my heart.
@Amanda 168, I agree that it's better to be in the open. I would love to get my wife's consent to let me seek sexual fulfillment elsewhere. However, her depression has stunted her emotional maturity. I love her and love our family unit; we actually work well together. It would devastate her to know that I was cheating, but she couldn't handle it if it were in the open. My god, what would happen if someone we knew found out? What about her parents, her relatives? How would the kids deal with it if someone in their school told them their parents were perverts like their parents told them? These improbabilities are enough to scare her away from a mature, workable solution.
You say it's better to divorce than live a lie. I think it's better for my children to have two parents who love each other (and we do) modeling a loving relationship in the same house. Divorce is simply not an option for me: it would be like throwing them under an emotional bus. If my wife wants to leave, well, in the state where we live, I can't stop her, but even though I'm having sex with another woman, I still take my commitment to my wife and family very seriously.
Our anniversary is coming up. Maybe it's time to have another conversation about it and feel her out for her willingness.
I wouldn't consider divorce a good option for anyone whose spouse was unable to have sex, yet still cared about the other person and was willing to discuss the problem. But Dan said to take this letter at face value: her pain prevents intercourse but she can still function in other ways, she refuses any communication about it, and he has experienced this from ages 22-40 so far. Therefore, this situation is not about someone having cancer, or an accident, or whatever.
Taken on the surface, this is a woman who is still capable of laying there naked, or pretending to enthusiastic encouragement, or offering use of her hand. Or if she's too upset to do those things, she's capable of going back to a counselor, or talking to her doctor, or at least talking to her husband as if this is a serious problem and he's a human being with sexual desires. What's the real story here? I have no idea--I am taking it at face value.
But honestly I’ve been very supportive and would accept any sort of sex (and I’ve asked).
We're not advocating divorce/cheating because she's incapable of vaginal penetration. We're advocating divorce/cheating because she is making zero effort to attend to her husband's sexual needs.
You didn't read the letter very close, did you? It's pretty clear that any kind of sex would do. He said:
"she is in pain, so I can understand her not wanting to have a dick inside her. But honestly I've been very supportive and would accept any sort of sex (and I've asked)."
Pay attention before you spout off. If she can work and handle normal activities of daily living, she can manage a hand job. She can try a blow job or suck on his balls, or nipples, or kiss him while he jerks off.
Also, all of you gloom and doomsayers suggesting that he will have to support her the rest of her life if he gets a divorce are flatly wrong in most American states. Property will be divided, there may or may not be a temporary maintenance provision, but if she is capable of working, anything longterm or significant is highly unlikely. LW, when it comes to this, and it will, consult a legal professional in your state.
@169 >>> Would those urging divorce say the same thing if it were, let's say, a man who lost his penis in an accident, and his wife were writing in, saying "I hate dildos; it has to be a warm living cock; I'm divorcing him?"
Oddly, Dan posted such a letter just now. Check out "Another One for the Monogamusts" posted on Slog at 10:16 today.
170, I'm sorry about your situation and I totally agree: this letter is not about the lack of sex per se, but the absence of any decent communication or compromise on the subject. You can't make a marriage work if you lack those things in general. I really hope that your husband is willing to work through the problem. I think it's totally reasonable to insist on a) a medical checkup to rule out things, and b) discussing it with a counselor. If you love your spouse, those are things you ought to be willing to do when there's a serious problem. If not, you're basically saying that the spouse's feelings no longer matter to you.
Mr. Downtown, is your wife seeking treatment for depression? Has her "shrinking circle" of sexual activities she's willing to do been discussed with a doctor or therapist? Maybe the answers are yes, but if not, I would pursue those options. Have you let her know that she faces a choice between working on your sexual issues or losing you, because it's that big a deal?
You said that she would be unable to handle the affair if it were in the open. What makes you think nobody will ever discover the affair? All the things you fear could happen then, regardless. Personally, I'm opposed to cheating, but I can't make the moral call for you about how bad a problem that is. Still, it sounds like you might be happy if your wife found a way to address her depression or at least address some of her sexual issues. And I think it's wrong to allow her to have sex with you at all, if she doesn't know you're also doing it with someone else, so I hope at least you just stop doing it with her.
I havent really been following the debate but dont really understand the problem. It seems that, throughout life, you have a number of options. Remain a cheerful individualist, content on your own, screwing as you please. Get involved in an open reltionship and accept the social positives of marriage while screwing as you please. Get married 'conventially' and forgoe the random fuck. Get tired of this arrangement and divorce, accepting the negative consequences of being divorced and alone in your middle and old age.
Perhaps Dan, and as I said I havent been following this but I love the man, is talking about the moral outrage that greets each new public case of cheating? Sure this is tiring but so are a number of our media led campaigns on morality. It boils down to a personal opinion approaching each case on its merits. Not every cheater is the same and context is vital. I honestly dont see what the controversy is about. Douchehat is a clown and should not be entertained.
As for the query above this man should obviously be allowed visit a prostitute. It is the perfect option as although there might be a slight possibility of him 'falling in love' with his call girl, theres no chance of it being reciprocated. This Iv found (not neccessarily through experience but instead conversations and hard boiled tv shows) to be the case
ps apologies for spelling mistakes and general incomprehension but im rushing this
I havent really been following the debate but dont really get the problem. It seems that, throughout life, you have a number of options. Remain a cheerful individualist, happy on your own, screwing as you please. Get involved in an open relationship and accept the social positives of marriage while screwing as you please. Get married 'conventially' and forgo the random fuck. Get tired of this arrangement and divorce, accepting the negative consequences of being divorced and alone in your middle and old age.
Perhaps Dan, and as I said I havent been following this but I love the man, is talking about the moral outrage that greets each new public case of cheating? Sure this is tiring but so are a number of our media led campaigns. It boils down to a personal opinion approaching each case on its merits. Not every cheater is the same and context is vital. I honestly dont see what the controversy is about. Douchehat is a clown and should not be entertained.
As for the query above this man should obviously be allowed visit a prostitute. It is the perfect option as although there might be a slight possibility of him 'falling in love' with his call girl, theres no chance of it being reciprocated. This Iv found (not neccessarily through experience but instead conversations and hard boiled tv shows) to be the case
ps apologies for spelling mistakes and general incomprehension but im rushing this
Speaking as a woman with a chronic illness, who is often in pain, who often feels like crap, and has some legitimate cause to feel less attractive than I'd like, I feel almost no sympathy for this guy's wife.
If there's one thing I've learned during these years of being dependent on others, it's that you have to give back in other ways! If you need others to care for you, you have to make them feel cared for in return, however you can; you can't just be this black hole of need and grimness. The temptation is there, sometimes. Sometimes it is an effort to smile and say something loving, but you have to make that effort, for yourself as well as the others in your life.
And I call *total bullshit* on the whole, "I'm well enough to hold a job and do ordinary things but far too sick to fuck you," thing. She may indeed be depressed, and possibly she has other emotional issues, but one thing she certainly is is colossally selfish.
And short-sighted. Because a loving sexual relationship is not only entirely possible--it's can be the one thing that makes a life of chronic illness worth living. Orgasms relieve pain! And when you make the effort to be loving, you make yourself feel better. You are putting money in a bank that will pay you back richly in endorphins and well-being.
I would never have imagined this when I was young and healthy, but I'm now in the happiest and most fulfilling relationship of my life, and it's partly because I have consistently made the effort to give back to my partner both sexually and in other ways.
We've now built up such a storehouse of love and good will that I honestly feel better just being in the same room with him. if I am in pain, he can relieve it just by resting his hand on my back. And a nice trip to the sack can pull me out of a nasty flare of my illness.
I don't know what possessed the LW to sacrifice his youth to this travesty of a marriage, but it does seem to me that his wife got where she is by consistently making that other choice, the choice to huddle inward, to, as John Gottmann says, "turn away rather than turn toward."
That is just so sad, and makes me feel incredibly grateful for what I have. And I have it because I made the effort.
I have only read up to comment 75, so I don't know if anyone after that said this but people need to wake up. Hasn't it been blazingly obvious for centuries that most relationships fail around sexual issues? Why isn't everyone taking this into account when creating their marriage vows? Yes, there is a boilerplate vow with the whole "til death do us part" and the "better or worse", but that is not the only one available. You can make up your own. Mine was that we would support each other toward fulfillment of our life goals until it was time to move on. Perfectly valid marriage vow. When it was time to move on, we both knew and we did. We are still friends and in even better relationships. It's time to stop living in the dark ages!
I think Dan punted a little on this one. I'd go back to something he preaches a lot: Prizing honesty over monogamy.
Shouldn't this guy just be honest, even if it means divorce?
First, it seems pretty clear that he's not going to get sex at home. So, then he decides whether that's a dealbreaker. Of course, easier said than done. If it isn't, then he's making a conscious sacrifice to stay together. If it is a dealbreaker, then he has to go to her and say:
"Honey, I love you - as much now as I did when we first got married. And I value our marriage over everything in my life. But I'm also a person, and I periodically need intimacy and sexual pleasure. And, that hasn't been part of our marriage for a long, long time. I want to figure something out, and I need you to tell me what you want, and don't want. And we'll take it from there."
At the very least he's confronting the issue. If she says "no sex" then he has to decide what to do with that information - cheat or leave. But, as it is right now, he's stuck in limbo and the burden is still on him as he has begrudgingly accepted this situation for years...
I think Dan punted a little on this one. I'd go back to something he preaches a lot: Prizing honesty over monogamy.
Shouldn't this guy just be honest, even if it means divorce?
First, it seems pretty clear that he's not going to get sex at home. So, then he decides whether that's a dealbreaker. Of course, easier said than done. If it isn't a dealbreaker, then he's making a conscious sacrifice to stay together. If it is a dealbreaker, then he has to go to her and say:
"Honey, I love you - as much now as I did when we first got married. And I value our marriage over everything in my life. But I'm also a person, and I periodically need intimacy and sexual pleasure. And, that hasn't been part of our marriage for a long, long time. I want to figure something out, and I need you to tell me what you want, and don't want. And we'll take it from there."
At the very least he's confronting the issue. If she says "no sex" then he has to decide what to do with that information - cheat or leave. But, as it is right now, he's stuck in limbo and the burden is still on him as he has begrudgingly accepted this situation for years...
Um...which part of "for better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, till death do you part" did you not mean?
Marriage is life--you're not very likely to have sex when you're 90; you're not likely to have sex when you're 80. That, in your case, sex stopped before you were 40--oh, well. You're married--act like an adult, not like some rutting antelope who is so overwhelmed by his testosterone level that he is incapable of, you know, living up to his commitments.
(And if the words, "that's easy for you to say..." are poised on your lips--I'm in a very similar boat. When I stood up in front of the entire community and pledged my troth I said what I meant--and I meant what I said. That meant good parts of marriage, and disappointing aspects of marriage. That's life.)
Perhaps we can address all these sexless marriages by reconsidering our interpretations of marriage vows.
The fidelity quid pro quo is not "I won't have sex with anyone else, and in exchange you won't have sex with anyone else." Rather, it's "I will have sex with you, which opens up a lot of risks like heartbreak, STDs, and pregnancy. So in exchange, you won't have sex with anyone else." After all, I have a right to know the bedroom activities of people I'm fucking. I have no right to know the bedroom activities of people I'm not fucking. And it's not entirely clear why marriage would change that calculus.
So if one spouse refuses to have sex ever, they've broken their marriage vows just as surely as a cheating spouse would have. In fact, it's the exact same vow, just different sides of the agreement. The sex-deprived spouse is the wronged party, and they get to choose what to do with the marriage. As with adultery, they are perfectly within their rights to end the marriage, both legally and ethically.
But. The wronged spouse doesn't have to end the marriage. They can try to salvage it by asking their partner to make some changes. And if their partner refuses to change, then divorce may be the only opinion.
tl;dr: Sex denied spouses are just as wronged as spouses who were cheated on. They should be treated the same both legally and socially. That means being entitled to a divorce, or making strong demands that the other partner must fulfill in order to save the marriage.
Sometimes the answers are easy: plan more weekend trips, sometimes not: find a good therapist to advise, console, and referee you(all). In our case hurdle one: we're screamers. So, spontaneity is pretty much out. So plan for afternoons where all the kids are safely (far) away at some event, and have fun. Hurdle two: my wife is a squirter. That lovely development came out when we were on vacation trying for kid #2. (I always knew she was holding something back no matter how out of control she got. She thought she was going to pee, and couldn't stand to let go. There I was face covered in not revulsion, but awe (and a good healthy jet really is awesome) and dripping liquid, and things have been even better since). So plan for keeping a few beach towels handy while the kids are out. Make it a game and keep it fun, just like all the dates you're having (hint, dates with the kids can work too).
I would be the first to admit it is almost impossible to get awesome mind blowing sex with regularity, while the kids are just down the hall. But, to use a food metaphor, Lobster everyday would start to lose it's magic, and when you need it, nothing is better than good comfy food. Work out what you need, then on what you want. I hope that you get everything you wish for!
@186: "Um...which part of "for better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, till death do you part" did you not mean?"
The part where we're not ancient Catholics and a worse marriage is grounds for divorce without social sanction.
Marriages that only end in misery should not be. The problem is not that she's sick or just that he's not getting off, but that she's not meeting ANY of his romantic needs.
Speaking from very personal and related experience: he simply must be more honest with her. I know he's tried counseling before, but he should schedule new sessions with new marriage counselors and work on the communication aspect first. Having a third party and neutral ground to clear these issues can help a lot.
Marriage always requires compromises. Sometimes its about sex. Sometimes its about kids, or work, or where to live and so on. This all means that marriage is not easy and there will be strains between partners. That strain can only be overcome if the two can communicate and cooperate. If not, his unacknowledged sacrifice will slowly destroy the love and faith that keeps the marriage alive for him.
Just being honest doesn't mean things will work out, but it is the only path forward to any chance of happiness. Coming from someone who wasn't honest early enough and caused heartbreak, pain and loss for all, I can't stress the importance enough.
It is possible (and likely) that he's not telling all he knows.
It is even more likely that he doesn't know everything. Maybe she IS having sex with someone else. This kind of thing happens, and happens all the time. It could be that he is no good in bed. It could be that he is GREAT in bed, and she can't handle it, and needs someone who is no good.
Yes - her unwillingness to discuss it is CLEAR emotional abuse.
Yes - it is possible, and VERY likely that all the counseling and therapy they have tried did not work, and in all probability, no amount of counseling in the future will work. You can't FORCE someone into mental health, and honest, open communication, especially if their manipulative, controlling, parasitic situation is working for them. (on the other hand, he might try some individual counseling to help him deal with this situation).
Usually, abuse victims are unwilling to accept that there is abuse going on. They often will defend their abusers, and the behavior. You see it all over this guy's post.
Yes - they should divorce.
Yes - divorce laws; family law, makes this pretty much a horrible choice for everyone involved.
Yes - she may be financially dependent upon him, and in most states, will probably remain so. (no matter how horribly she is abusing him, emotionally).
Yes - it's possible that she "stacked it" that way, on purpose, because she is too emotionally incapable of independence. (it is easier to manipulate someone into taking care of her, than it is to take on the hard work of taking care of herself).
OR - it is possible that he is financially dependent upon her. These dependent situations are really not healthy marriages to begin with. That's NOT a reason to be married. That's a reason to become financially independent.
The other question I have for HIM is:
Time is running out? Why do you feel you have to have x-amount of sex before you die? Is it some kind of game? Is somebody keeping score? Seriously people. I mean - I too, have a huge sex drive, (and a partner with. . . . issues). But, is sex really THAT important?
Think about what you're REALLY missing. It's not the SEX. It's the INTIMACY. It's the closeness that you would have with a sex-partner. If you start having sex with someone else, you're going to start having that closeness with someone else. Your marriage certainly WILL suffer. There is no doubt. (It's already suffering though - because the wife is shutting him out, because she is terrified of physical intimacy - vaginal penetration, pain, is just the excuse. She won't even give the poor guy a hand job! She won't even accept him telling her she's pretty!).
This is why I believe that Monogamy IS natural, and IS important, and IS necessary. But what is also necessary, is the ability to eject from a relationship that is crashing and burning, without having to suffer ongoing lifelong punishment (in the form of spousal support) - just because some people are able to fake intimacy just long enough to get married, and squirt out a kid, and then throw up walls because they're too inhibited and damaged to allow any personal closeness.
It is possible (and likely) that he's not telling all he knows.
It is even more likely that he doesn't know everything. Maybe she IS having sex with someone else. This kind of thing happens, and happens all the time. It could be that he is no good in bed. It could be that he is GREAT in bed, and she can't handle it, and needs someone who is no good.
Yes - her unwillingness to discuss it is CLEAR emotional abuse.
Yes - it is possible, and VERY likely that all the counseling and therapy they have tried did not work, and in all probability, no amount of counseling in the future will work. You can't FORCE someone into mental health, and honest, open communication, especially if their manipulative, controlling, parasitic situation is working for them. (on the other hand, he might try some individual counseling to help him deal with this situation).
Usually, abuse victims are unwilling to accept that there is abuse going on. They often will defend their abusers, and the behavior. You see it all over this guy's post.
Yes - they should divorce.
Yes - divorce laws; family law, makes this pretty much a horrible choice for everyone involved.
Yes - she may be financially dependent upon him, and in most states, will probably remain so. (no matter how horribly she is abusing him, emotionally).
Yes - it's possible that she "stacked it" that way, on purpose, because she is too emotionally incapable of independence. (it is easier to manipulate someone into taking care of her, than it is to take on the hard work of taking care of herself).
OR - it is possible that he is financially dependent upon her. These dependent situations are really not healthy marriages to begin with. That's NOT a reason to be married. That's a reason to become financially independent.
The other question I have for HIM is:
Time is running out? Why do you feel you have to have x-amount of sex before you die? Is it some kind of game? Is somebody keeping score? Seriously people. I mean - I too, have a huge sex drive, (and a partner with. . . . issues). But, is sex really THAT important?
Think about what you're REALLY missing. It's not the SEX. It's the INTIMACY. It's the closeness that you would have with a sex-partner. If you start having sex with someone else, you're going to start having that closeness with someone else. Your marriage certainly WILL suffer. There is no doubt. (It's already suffering though - because the wife is shutting him out, because she is terrified of physical intimacy - vaginal penetration, pain, is just the excuse. She won't even give the poor guy a hand job! She won't even accept him telling her she's pretty!).
This is why I believe that Monogamy IS natural, and IS important, and IS necessary. But what is also necessary, is the ability to eject from a relationship that is crashing and burning, without having to suffer ongoing lifelong punishment (in the form of spousal support) - just because some people are able to fake intimacy just long enough to get married, and squirt out a kid, and then throw up walls because they're too inhibited and damaged to allow any personal closeness.
@171/189 - re the impossibility of having sex when the kids might hear.
I don't see this as a problem, but I'd be interested to hear what others think. We used to act that way, but in the aftermath of our big marital shake-up, now we have sex whenever we want it and we're both home, morning noon or night. We have a lock on the bedroom door, and we try to keep the moans low if the kids are awake, but I don't think there are any rules that say children should not hear their parents having sex. Do other people think that's outrageous?
@194: You raise an interesting point. My initial response was that children shouldn't hear their parents having sex, but on reflection I cannot think on any good reason to support that. One of my roommates heard his parents having sex-- constantly-- throughout his childhood, and didn't realize that was uncommon until he got to college. He certainly wasn't horribly scarred by it; if anything, he learned early on that a healthy relationship involves lots and lots of sex.
Hell, maybe the college "hook up" rules should apply in family homes as well. When kids see a tie/sock/whatever on the bedroom door handle, they know the parents are having sex and they should come back later.
@196: That's kinda the point of my little story. What we consider "normal" is just whatever we grew up with. Normal for me was never hearing my parents fuck; normal for my roommate was hearing his parents fuck every day. So while my initial response was "thing I am not used to is not OK," some internal dialog convinced me otherwise.
If only the homophobes had a similar thought process.
Sadly, she's been ill for many years, however not to the point where she's not able to work or do many normal activities, but she is in pain, so I can understand her not wanting to have a dick inside her.
... she is very jealous. She takes fidelity very seriously.
Originally, when I'd read this article a couple of hours ago, I had a far sterner comment in mind. But time (and dinner) have mellowed me – a bit.
The problem, LW, is that your wife is the one who has broken the bonds of matrimony. Why would I say that? Well, beyond any discussion of monogamy, I have always believed that the primary focus (or "job", if you will) of a newly-married couple should be on each other and on the relationship. Note I didn't mention sex there; but, unless the couple has a prior agreement (re asexuality or other idiosyncracies), sex is generally considered to be part of the contract as well as a willingness to be GGG.
But sex hasn't been part of your contract for the majority of your marriage. Yet, your wife honours her obligation to her place of employment (even if it's not a stereotypical "married to the job" identity), so that appears to be her primary focus. But can you imagine her crying at work if she were confronted with an inadequate aspect of her job performance? No, because that would not be professional. Yet that is her first line of defence when dealing with your differences whenever you try to discuss them.
I'd also say that, as she has said in no uncertain terms that she will not tolerate your straying, there appear to be hints of a dominant-submissive vibe (except for the matter of the tears, but IMO that's an adjunct to her demand for compliance).
What can you try to do? You can try different counselors, also a sex therapist. Because, like another commenter pointed out, sex creates good feelings, if not orgasms then certainly endorphins which – surprise – mask pain. It's always worked for me when I'm in too much pain to attempt even a simple chore but the prospect of sex later perks me up considerably and the benefits linger long afterwards. That's why I find it peculiar that she will expend energy on work and other peripheral activities but not on ANY type of sexual activity with you.
What else? Change the rules of the marriage. This may be heavy-handed, but you could give her an ultimatum to stop working and use the energy that's dissipated throughout the day on other people into repairing the obvious hole in the bond between you.
If she remains closed to changing her attitude and behaviours, then you probably should divorce her (emotionally, though not legally) and go out to live your life anew with the prospect of finding intimacy and sexual satisfaction. But, before you do that, you work out a new contract by which you will take care of her financially (should she need it) and provide for her health care, so that she cannot claim that you have abandoned her. Because she already abandoned you years ago.
Even if this is the ultimate destination for your marriage, there's no reason why you cannot remain amicable. But you should not have to endure her irrational restrictions.
Honestly, I can't imagine being in such a situation for 18 years. I hope you will find some resolution to the emptiness within you.
On an unrelated note, but amusing to think about whether children should be aware of their parents fucking. If they were aware, then they couldn't have much justification for freaking out and going "Ewww" should they catch their parents doing so much as kissing. ::rolls eyes::
And it would do a lot to heighten sex positivity in society and shatter the notion that OLD people (OMG, like super gross) don't do THAT THING any more.
We do have quiet cuddling sex 3-5 times a week, it just isn't full on lose ourself in ecstasy mode. And when I said we're screamers I mean LOUD (as in the neighbors can hear us on a good throw, with the windows closed).
Point of etiquette? How should one respond to someone pounding on the wall (during the middle of the day) in a ship/hotel while you are celebrating your marriage? The people next cabin to us had turned up their stereo to the point we had difficulty talking, so we pounded on the wall. We didn't understand why they had the music so loud until they pounded on the wall while we pounded each other. As it was, we laughed about it and carried on more quietly...
Just thinking about that incident, and the great sex we had watching the islands of the Alaskan interior passage going by, makes me so glad I took the gamble of monogamy. It's like hetero sex, I simply can't fathom doing it any other way. All I can do is hope for that kind of joy for as many people as possible, in any way they are able to receive it. (Just don't pound on our wall, and we won't pound on yours)
Even though I believe it wrong in general, this is why I am opposed to banning abortion. Moral judgments should/must left to the individual. At the same time I am offended by those who trivialize the taking of a human life. I also support the death penalty, so I'm not a liberal or conservative hypocrite on the issue. I believe people need to be morally consistent. I also believe that if people choose to be sexually active they have an obligation (to themselves, society, God, whatever) to take responsibility for the consequences of being sexually active. Abortion should not be a simple option for those who failed or were unwilling to take precaution. Given the high cost of pregnancy, contraceptive implants should be mandatory for everyone. It also addresses the real cause of climate change, too many frigging people.
There will always be tragic specific circumstances that illustrate the problems with the general and inflexible application of any principle or belief. The LW needs to have a heart to heart with his wife. I know how difficult this would be for me and a lot of people. Excluding BDSM enthusiasts, who wants to intentionally hurt those you love. He needs to really and truly tell her how much he loves, needs, wants, and desires her and doesn't want anyone else. That he understands her health problems and doesn't blame her for them. That he wants to stay married to her and remain faithful, but he is being torn apart by the conflict between those feelings and his (natural) physical needs for sex and intimacy. That it has reached a point where he just can't continue to live like this and that something has to be done about the situation. Justifiable cheating does not appear to be a viable solution.
Also, for those of you who think he should divorce her before cheating... what if this woman has been battling breast cancer for the past ten years? My childhood best friend's mother battled but eventually lost to breast cancer, and it was 11 years past her diagnosis date. Do you really think it's okay for someone to divorce their wife for not performing sexually if they may or may not be dying from a slow, painful disease? We don't know that this is her situation, but it's entirely possible.
Also, to those who say that her tears are "emotional blackmail"- I'm sure she's not doing it intentionally. What probably happens is that he says something about needing more sex, she cries because she KNOWS she's not doing enough for him, but she also has no idea what she can do for him, and she doesn't want him to look outside their marriage for fear that he might get a girlfriend and realize that his life would be a million times easier if he just divorced her. He probably gives up there and reassures her that he's not leaving, that he's not going to look elsewhere, and then gives up until the next time. She probably thinks that if she keeps saying no, he'll realize it's a lost cause at some point and give up asking and just live without sex.
What he needs to do is power through that conversation. He can't give up when she starts crying. He has to find out whether their marriage is more important to her or whether his sexual fidelity is more important. If he finds out that his sexual fidelity is more important, I think he has the go ahead to cheat discreetly if he doesn't want to leave. If it turns out that the marriage is more important and she concedes that she can't keep him from having sex his whole life, I think he should submit to any demands on what outside sex looks like. But he has to force the conversation, and he has to find out what her priorities really are.
As has been mentioned above, he wants her to want him. She doesn't. One of the things people do when faced with constant rejection is withdraw and stop investing emotionally. For all intents and purposes, this guy may have already left; divorce might be only a formality.
Getting a piece on the side might only delay the inevitable. When someone who is fundamentally monogamous and has accepted rejection for a long time finally lies in the arms of someone who wants them, they will feel whole and human again in a way they had forgotten about. The likelihood of continuing to accept ongoing rejection in a marriage when acceptance is possible elsewhere is dismal.
I suspect that "going outside" works best when looking for variety. If you see women as either virgins, mothers or whores, then you may be happy to marry a "mother" and go elsewhere for a "whore." If you have a great relationship with decades of shared projects and giggles, there may be no revelation of being "made whole" when getting sexual needs met elsewhere because you are already fully accepted within your partnership. Sex in this case becomes just a detail, albeit an important one. Or maybe you like variety because you're kinky, like Erica P.
I don't think it's realistic to think that going outside for sex is going to preserve the letter-writer's marriage. I think it's going to give him the courage and confidence to leave. His wife knows it. He knows it too, otherwise he'd have done it already.
That is so unloving and unfair that her issues are irrelevant. Sympathetic, sure, but irrelelvant. Her lack of concern for her husband's well being over nearly 20 years is the primary issue.
If I truly loved a man, I cannot imagine putting his dick in a jar for 20 years no matter what illness I was suffering. Period.
They've been married for 18 years and celibate for most of that, right off the bat from what he stated.
If you love yourself, set yourself free. If you don't leave and save yourself, you never loved yourself in the first place.
What IS her illness, how is it being treated, and what's the prognosis? Has she discussed her lack of sexual engagement with her doctor(s)?
After more than a dozen years, it's tough to lay the blame entirely on the wife for the current situation. Whatever he is saying or not saying, he is conveying to her that he is OK with the situation.
What has his role been with regard to her illness? Has he been her caretaker? If so, that may have changed their relationship so much that it is difficult for her to behave as anything other than his "patient." He may be encouraging this without trying to (I've seen this happen.).
They need help. And they need to make some decisions. It doesn't appear she has handled this well, but, really, we have heard nothing of her side, and there are gaping contextual holes in his story (probably not intentional, possibly the result of editing) that make it difficult to have a clear picture of what's going on.
Good luck to them! No matter the outcome, they will surely need it.
Given that every time he tries to discuss it she bursts into tears and refuses I would call your statement both inaccurate and unfair.
Find a discreet, not-crazy callgirl who won't mess up your already messy life. DO NOT get a girlfriend. My biggest concern with you seeking a secondary relationship is that you may find someone who is as emotionally needy as your wife because it's the type of relationship that you're used to.
I understand some of where you are coming from, having been married for more than 20 years. After our 2nd child, and before our 20th, we got in the habit of not having sex. Since I had no qualms about taking care of my own needs, and would never have sex with anyone other than my wife, that worked for years. OTOH, come vacation time my wife would turn back into the passionate lover I've come to worship. Believe me, I know that w/o those vacation breaks I would've been miserable, but I would've stayed. As long as all the other parts of our relationship worked, I couldn't justify leaving. But that is the kind of intensely personal decision that only you can make, because sex is only a minor part of what makes up the days of your life together. Because even without sex, your life together can be loving and sustaining. It's just that with an active, passionate sex-life it can be so much better...
I stated that it worked for years because I decided after our 20th anniversary that life was too short to wait for vacations. Initially I went over board, but we worked with a sex councilor to establish a better relationship, and better balances for our needs. It shouldn't be a revalation, but yeah you can have a family and have mind blowing sex after the age of 40. Believe me when I say that I am blessed, and, as much as it pains me to say it, would still feel that way if it was w/o sex because of the chance to live life with my wife.
In the end it keeps coming back to what you need in your life.
Peace.
But it seems to me that monogamy doesn't equal forced celibacy. Marriage vows aren't or shouldn't be a straightjacket and chastity belt in one. A partner who refuses any and all kinds of sexual intimacy and expects the other not to find that solace elsewhere and furthermore cries if the topic is even broached is being unfair and selfish and indeed, practicing emotional blackmail.
I'm all too aware that the wife's fears that the letter writer would fall in love with any woman he'd have a sexual relationship with are valid--the poor guy is starving for physical, spiritual, sexual, and emotional bonding with another person: a real psychic need and one which she is denying him out of hand.
The emotional and psychological effects of an ongoing and total sexual rejection are profound, and not addressed by telling the letter writer to jerk off more (I'm sure he's masturbating a lot already). The closeness and intimacy are worth so much more than just the sexual release. He (and she, too) needs to feel wanted, to feel desired, to feel as if they share something besides chores and dinner and bills and a history and (perhaps) parental joys and responsibilities. They both need to feel cherished and sexy by the other. They need to feel that sweet, blissful heaviness as sleep takes over after they are sexually satisfied. Not every day, of course, and they need to accommodate whatever limits the wife's illness and debility impose, but if she's just "over" sex, that isn't fair to him or to their marriage.
I'm not a monogamist, necessarily, though I get jealous of the primacy of a a bond, and prefer my sexual non-exclusivity to take the part of threesomes and moresomes or adventures at sex clubs, rather than as a truly open marriage. But this man didn't sign up for a life devoid of sexual intimacy when he married and he deserves to experience the joy of sex with another person. And yet I have serious issues with the idea of cheating or going outside the marriage non-consensually in order to (as Dan puts it) "stay sane." I speak from experience.
Here's the thing: I once had a marriage I described as perfect except for the sex. My problems weren't the same as the letter writers, but after years of trying to address them in similar ways (couples' counseling, emotional discussion, trying to do without fulfilling sex) I decided to "get my needs met" elsewhere.
Initially, I felt that that’s exactly what this affair did. I was happier, more relaxed. I no longer looked to my husband to satisfy me, and so his failure or refusal to try and meet my needs/desires no longer mattered. And for the first time in about 15 years, I felt desired and desirable, powerful aphrodisiacs. The sex was great—so great that I finally realized what I was missing and what was possible.
I never felt guilty; I had stated my intention (even though I know that my husband didn’t think I’d go through with it), and I felt like my conscience was clear. But what happened was that there was so much I couldn’t share with my husband. Obviously the facts of the affair could not be shared, nor could the details. If I heard a funny story from my bf, and wanted to repeat it, I had to make up someone to attribute it to. There were experiences I was having that I couldn’t talk about, and they weren’t all merely sexual. And even the sex: there were particular acts that I hadn’t done before but that we tried and I liked, and I didn’t know how to try and incorporate them into the infrequent sex I was still having with my husband—how to explain where I had learned that I liked them? After a while, the sex I had with my husband became even more unsatisfying, because now I had something wonderful to compare it against, and it came up so short. So I pulled further and further away from my husband emotionally, and after a while, it just became easier to not try to share any of my emotional or inner life with him—so much couldn’t be explained or accounted for without knowledge of what was becoming the most important relationship in my life besides my children. After a while, the distance between us just seemed un-bridge-able.
Well, I can only experience fantastic sex with someone who thinks I am the cat’s pajamas and tells me so and brings me little gifts and makes me laugh and is a nice person and a smart guy for so long before . . . I fell in love. As a married woman. To a married man, who was not my husband. And the love I felt for my husband, once so strong and robust, died a slow, oxygen-deprived death, like a limb cut off by a tourniquet. I, who had entered into this affair thinking that my marriage was perfect save for one small detail, and only wanting to have fun, came to want to leave my house and have my bf leave his wife and have us be together in a legitimate way. But the bf , though he loved me, didn’t want to leave his marriage, and was terrified that he’d lose the love of his children if he left their mother.
My bf was finally—somewhere in our 4th year together—overcome by his guilt and the fear of what would happen if he were caught. We broke it off.
And I thought: I can’t go on with my marriage without the escape/relief that the affair provided. I don’t want to have another affair: although I feel in my heart that I am a good person, I know that in society’s eyes I am a bad person; my actions, were they to be found out, would cause a lot of people—good, undeserving people—pain. I’ve put the friends of mine that know about this affair in an uncomfortable moral position: they love me so they feel compelled to take my side and support me in something that they would under any other circumstances, find reprehensible. I won’t do that again. I want to live with integrity, to look in the mirror and see someone the world approves of. I want all my relationships to be able to be public. But I can’t go back to a marriage in which my sexual self is so denied. And I don’t want to hurt my children, and for such a selfish reason! I had already gone round and round about leaving my marriage for several years, but with the solace of the affair, I was able to put up with it. Now, I just couldn’t do it. A few days after my clandestine bf and I broke up, I told my husband I wanted a divorce. He begged me to stay. We went to counseling (again). We talked about opening up the marriage. But I knew it was over. It was the worst nine months of my life, a bitter gestation. Finally, we agreed to open the marriage (the suggestion came in desperation from my husband; I, having been through an affair and realizing that I might well fall in love with a new partner, especially since I no longer felt the same kind of love for my husband, didn’t want to do it!) Finally, I said let’s open it, and started making plans to look for new partners. When he was confronted with the reality of me actually looking to be non-monogamous, he decided he couldn’t deal with it, after all, and told me we should end the marriage. By the way, I never told him about the affair and he never directly asked. I think it was a case of don’t ask, don’t tell all along, but I couldn’t see the point in telling him once it was all water under the bridge. It would just cause more pain. So he still doesn’t “know,” though I wouldn’t be surprised if he “knew.”
So three years ago, we split up. I often was wracked with guilt at having been the cause for the end of my children’s “perfect” childhood and domestic/family life, just so I could selfishly look for sexual satisfaction. My ex and I were miraculously able to stay friends. I was often lonely, but I never questioned my decision.
I remember when I told my mother I was leaving my marriage. I told her I wanted a relationship that was more fulfilling. She asked, “what if you don’t find one?” I said, “I may not find one. But I KNOW I don’t have a chance of having it as long as I stay married to ------. This way, there’s a chance.”
I am currently dating a man who comes from a marriage much like so many of these sexless marriages we're talking about. He is everything I was looking for. He is amazed to find a smart, kind, funny, sane woman who loves sex, and kinky sex, as much as he does—he didn’t think they existed.
I can't advise the letter writer to preserve his sanity by having an affair, because after having been deprived and starved for so long, I think the chances are high that he won't be willing to just keep having sex "on the side." He will want the whole thing: a loving relationship that includes sex. And he deserves it.
So I would advise this guy to try one last time to talk honestly and perhaps painfully with his wife. Surely something as important as this deserves it, even if she does cry and try to cut off the discussion. He should let her know how much he loves her, how much is missing in his life and how much he wants that lack fulfilled by and with HER--and then, should she be completely unwilling to fulfill him in any way at all, he should leave and live his life with integrity. I wish them both well, and know how agonizing this is.
I apologize for the lengthy post.
I know whose commentary I'd like to see on this situation. This letter reminds me just a little of the letter from the woman who could have sex with her boyfriend but not her husband six months or so after a sexual assault. The situations aren't all that similar (especially as it was a poly marriage in the earlier letter), but there were some commenters who took the line that noone ever has a *right* to have sex with one's spouse and that the husband was obliged to suck it up indefinitely until the wife was ready to resume. Now, granted, there was certainly a case to be made that the husband in the case was not a prize, but I wished at the time that those commenters might have given a vague time line at which they would have thought it reasonable for a spouse's issues about having to continue to suck it up to be taken seriously. At any rate, I'd like to see what those commenters would say here, because letters like this one seem a possible sequel to letters like the other one if Suck It Up is the beginning and end of the answer. It seems as if something might have been done at some point.
Thank you for sharing, nocutename.
Please know that I don't think you ever were a bad person. You're all things wonderful and frail that we humans are. I'm glad you found peace and someone to share joy with. I wish you and your's more joy.
Take care,
k
Are we going to call extended periods of sexual rejection a form of violence? If that's the case, what's the remedy? Who's the perpetrator? In the context of a monogamous marriage, this is pretty clear, but what about people who just can't convince other people to have sex with them? Prostitution is risky and probably unsatisfying for someone seeking genuine intimacy. I'm a little concerned about what the implications of this thinking are, not disagreeing with it.
In the case of the guy in the letter, I think he ought to try going to a therapist, a sex therapist specifically, if only so he has a safe, neutral space to explain to his wife exactly how he feels. He obviously values his marriage; DTMFA seems callous after eighteen years of matrimony. I think the wife deserves one last chance to try and work it out, hopefully with some emotional support and practical advice from a professional. It seems to me that she's just as broken up about this as he is, and it might take a good while for her to deal with whatever the issue is. If he's willing to try and make it work with her, I think that's the best possible outcome.
If she simply can't have a sexual life with her husband, then it's time for them to negotiate new rules. If she wants to keep her husband, she's going to have to recognize that he's a sexual being, that sexuality is a critical component of human happiness for the vast majority of people, and that she's hurting him by denying him the consolation of a fulfilling sexual life. A therapist could probably be more firm and articulate about this problem than her husband, who has clearly been walking on eggshells about this issue for a long time. There are a lot of ways to negotiate an open marriage, and maybe having a third party as a mediator will help her be more reasonable about this. I'm willing to bet something along the lines of "never in the house, never so I have to hear about it, never more than once a week/month, never spend the night," would give her the control she needs.
If she is unwilling to try anything under any circumstances, then her husband should divorce her. I don't think he should cheat on the sly -- if she's as fragile as he says she is, that would ruin her. I think living honestly and with integrity means confronting the issue. I also think that it's premature to indict the wife in question. If we take the writer at his word (which we should), his wife seems just as frustrated and upset about the situation as he is. She is terrified of losing her husband, she's probably frustrated with the otherness of her own body, and I bet she misses sex as much as he does. For whatever reason, though, she hasn't been able to go there. She does owe him at least a few visits to a sex therapist and a good faith effort to create a long-term solution.
Hand jobs are easy.
They both need to go to a sex positive therapy to find out what is most important to them. Then figure out what you need to do.
It just doesn't make sense to me.
masturbation is no substitute for sex with a live human being.
masturbation is no substitute for sex with a live human being.
How dare you, you bitch! So many women around the world would do about anything to have a spouse like yours and instead of treasure him, you tortured him during many, many years.
To the husband - divorce this lying excuse of a wife and go out and fuck your way around the globe!
Hold your wife while you masturbate. Don't ask. Just do it. Have your wife hold you while you masturbate. Whisper in her ear that you love her and that she is sexy. This is a low pressure activity that doesn't pressure her to feel "sexy" if she can't do that.
I am not monogamous personally, but if I were, I would be monogamous with the understanding that people get sick. So that means if one person can't have sex, then neither can. I geuss this is why I don't do monogamy. If I did choose to do monogamy, it wouldn't be case of "only while it's convenient".
It's best to choose honestly when possible.
If he can't bring himself to leave her now then at least cheat on her.
Have you tried that? When I did that I came to the uncomfortable realization that I, in fact, need both hands free to get off. In addition trying to ignore that only one of you is breathing heavy, making weird sounds and faces, and not making a mess on her is really distracting. I don't recommend it.
Peace.
Instead, not only has she unilaterally ended his sex life along with her own, she refuses to talk about it. In what definition of marriage is that OK?
Jealousy usually stems from insecurity. If she feels unsexy she may be feeling, since you need sex so much ("I am very sexual and have always been so") and this is something she feels that she cannot give you, that if you have any sex with anyone else you will immediately run out on her.
You said you would accept any sort of sex. Will your wife give blowjobs? Handjobs? Anything?
My guess, and it's just a guess, that at least 2 possible scenarios playing out here.
Scenario 1) You and your wife truly love each other and want to stay together. Reassure her that you want sex, but the sex is so much better for you if she is a part of it in any way she can. See if you wife would lay in bed with you and kiss you while you jerk off. If that goes well have her get more involved with a handjob and blowjob. She might not want a dick in her vagina because of pain, but surely she can lick and suck cock and balls. This might not be as much as you'd want with vaginal intercourse, but at least it would be something. It might also help your wife realize that you want your sexual life to be with her.
You might also want to try go back to counseling (a different counselor), but maybe try some communication classes too (Crucial Conversations changed my life for the better.)
Scenario 2) You are fooling yourself if you think your wife loves you. I've encountered a lot of recently divorced wives and soon to be divorced wives who realized that they didn't love their husbands anymore (if they ever did). They are often scared and not sure what to do and hold on to the marriage for a few years before they actually take action towards a divorce. During this time, they are miserable and they do a lot of searching for clues as to why the marriage isn't working. The sad thing is that the husbands are usually clueless to their spouse's unhappiness and are floored when the wife asks for a divorce.
If you suspect scenario 2 might be the situation, ask yourself:
Is your wife financially dependent upon you? Does she have a lot of her "own" friends that she can spend time with or is she dependent upon you for most of your socializing? Are their school-aged kids involved?
These would be some of the common considerations a wife might be pondering when thinking of leaving her husband.
I hope that yours is scenario 1, but if not good luck. I'm a big believer in monogamy for most people (myself included), but I'd rather be alone that in a bad relationship. For some years now, yours has been in a bad place.
Jealousy usually stems from insecurity. If she feels unsexy she may be feeling, since you need sex so much ("I am very sexual and have always been so") and this is something she feels that she cannot give you, that if you have any sex with anyone else you will immediately run out on her.
You said you would accept any sort of sex. Will your wife give blowjobs? Handjobs? Anything?
My guess, and it's just a guess, that at least 2 possible scenarios playing out here.
Scenario 1) You and your wife truly love each other and want to stay together. Reassure her that you want sex, but the sex is so much better for you if she is a part of it in any way she can. See if you wife would lay in bed with you and kiss you while you jerk off. If that goes well have her get more involved with a handjob and blowjob. She might not want a dick in her vagina because of pain, but surely she can lick and suck cock and balls. This might not be as much as you'd want with vaginal intercourse, but at least it would be something. It might also help your wife realize that you want your sexual life to be with her.
You might also want to try go back to counseling (a different counselor), but maybe try some communication classes too (Crucial Conversations changed my life for the better.)
Scenario 2) You are fooling yourself if you think your wife loves you. I've encountered a lot of recently divorced wives and soon to be divorced wives who realized that they didn't love their husbands anymore (if they ever did). They are often scared and not sure what to do and hold on to the marriage for a few years before they actually take action towards a divorce. During this time, they are miserable and they do a lot of searching for clues as to why the marriage isn't working. The sad thing is that the husbands are usually clueless to their spouse's unhappiness and are floored when the wife asks for a divorce. I bring up this scenario because if she truly loves you I think she would want to try and please you sexually somehow (like in some of my above suggestions). If she is not willing to do that then she may have some other issues with sex or with you that are much thornier.
If you suspect scenario 2 might be the situation, ask yourself:
Is your wife financially dependent upon you? Does she have a lot of her "own" friends that she can spend time with or is she dependent upon you for most of your socializing? Are there school-aged kids involved?
These would be some of the common considerations a wife might be pondering when thinking of leaving her husband.
I hope that yours is some version of scenario 1. I'm a big believer in monogamy for most people (myself included), but I'd rather be alone that in a bad relationship. For some years now, yours has been in a bad place.
Good luck!
The guy should DTMFA! She works, she does her motherly duties, she cleans the house, but she can't fuck once in a blue moon? BULLSHIT!!! Everybody can do something, Stephen Fucking Hawking, can at least use his vibraphone voicebox to tell his wife a dirty story while she fucks herself with a big black dildo. This woman does nothing and will always do nothing with him. Divorce the game playing bitch and I'll bet you the farm that she'll somehow find a way to fuck someone else, at least until that sucker marries her lazy ass and she goes back to withholding sex from him too.
If you got married and your spouse said, "hey, we're not having sex ever again but that's okay because I can jack off any time I want" you'd respond, "you sick, damaged fuck!". But you seem oblivious to the fact that you're the sick, damaged fuck because you're the one who is saying, "hey, we're not having sex ever again because you can jack off any time you want".
Tell me letter writer, am I wrong?
I love reading your letters to this blog, and their responses. Being only one person, and having only one experience set, it takes me to many places I couldn't get to otherwise in my quest to make myself and my monogamous relationship better. No person going into marriage these days should be limited to do or die mentality because rigidity hurts success. Perfection is the enemy of the good, as evidenced by the higher divorce rate in the bible belt versus the blue states.
I went into my marriage with the possibility that my wife wasn't a person I could spend the rest of my life with, but that she could be. Over time we both made significant discoveries as to what our needs were. Not the least of which were delightful experiments in being sex partners and finding what turns us on. You should notice I mention change, because accepting change is what makes our bond stronger. I had a high school friend ask me if I thought my life was over after the birth of our oldest child. I considered that idea carefully because it seemed outrageous, and true. My life was over as a non-parent, but that didn't mean it wasn't better.
Monogamy, like any relationship, works when it makes the participants a safe and nourishing environment of the kind you need to weather the problems that will occur. Problems like dead or dieing parents/sibs/friends, financial loss, children (sick or healthy), or the shit that sticks between your toes when you walk in your yard. Sex is great, wonderful, and delightful. But if your daughter comes down with a power booting bug the day you have to give a presentation at work, and your partner is working out-of-town, sex really isn't important. OTOH if the sleepy, cuddling sex you had before your partner left makes the difference in keeping you centered, then it becomes crucial. It's all up to you.
It's all up to you.
It is a blessing and a privilege to be my wife's partner. My marriage has been my saving grace countless times because I am a very flawed individual, just like my wife, children, family members, etc.. I have had the good fortune to not reach a breaking point in my marriage, but if the LW has then getting out could be a better option.
Peace.
and the real goal is a safe, fulfilling environment
-> What do you think a spouse should do when the other breaks the vows?
For instance, if he were to cheat on her openly would you tell her to “suck it up” because it is part of the “for better for worse, etc.?” I ask this because it is undeniable from the points Dan presents that:
-> SHE has BROKEN her vows first. He is just struggling with how to cope with the betrayal.
As a few posters have noted (@96 said it best), monogamy is not the same as celibacy and marriage vows have always been interpreted in “traditional” Western culture to require the first word of “sexually exclusive” as well as the second. (A point made powerfully by @59.)
So, I wonder:
-> If the shoe was on the other foot, and he was a philandering, skirt-chasing, illegitimate baby fathering husband who claimed he couldn’t help it because he had a sickness, who wouldn’t even tolerate talk about his affairs, and therapy had failed to change the situation, would you be telling her to “suck it up,” that this was part of what she signed on for?
Just wondering.
I'm going to assume you meant to say "before our 20th anniversary" not 20th child. If I'm wrong: a) I guess the last 18 were conceived while on vacation (?) and b) if she was pregnant for 75% of the time over 2 decades and also had to take care of all of those kids, you should consider yourself lucky getting as much as you did.
Not that we disagree – there is some fair caution and good integrity in this point. But we find it particularly interesting because when we made the same point about another letter a year ago (The Bad Husband, June 10, 2010) we were bitterly attacked by most on this board. And that was not a case – as this is – where Dan explicitly asked people to comment on just the facts as given and not explore the assumptions.
Apparently it is more acceptable to reserve judgment on a wife whose husband claims she is emotionally blackmailing him into celibacy then it is to reserve judgment on a husband whose wife claims he is humiliating her by being open and forward about his kink to others. Fascinating, if a bit disappointing.
Gads what is it about being half asleep and pontificating?
Peace.
Just the 2 kids, and I still feel (very) lucky to get what I did.
Thanks.
I think that your use of the "for better or worse" argument shows a poorly thought out notion of what that vow really means. I don't think people say it to mean that they will stay married to a spouse who is choosing to make them unhappy. I think it means that they will stay married regardless of the terrible circumstances the couple may find themselves in - things that the external world does to them. "For better or worse" doesn't give married people carte blanche to make each other miserable.
And this man's wife is choosing to make her husband miserable. Her illness is an external, involuntary thing that has happened to her/them, but her refusal to have sex is a problem of her own making. Illness is not a good excuse for what she's doing to her husband. Even if she has lost her libido or finds intercourse painful or doesn't enjoy being touched in a sexual way, she should still be willing to provide Dan's oft-recommended loving assist. "To love/comfort/cherish" is in traditional wedding vows, too, right?
If you won't acknowledge sex as a "need," I think you can at least agree that this man *desperately* wants it, and that going without is painful. His wife should love and cherish him enough to help ease his pain and desperation.
So, if you believe that monogamy is a part of marriage, than in the situation described above, the marriage has already failed. And as someone who believes that monogamy is a very good thing, and while hard, not nearly as hard as advertised (at least not any harder than any other sort of fidelity), I don't actually find this non-hypothetical situation at all in tension with monogamy. It is actually a problem that is caused by marriages, in general.
Real life situations like this are tragedies, and what needs to be done for this guy is not "to stay sane" but to "stay happy." His sex-related problem isn't one of release, its one of misery, part and parcel of being stuck, because of his loyalty to his wife's needs and wants, and it sounds like not his dedication to the institution of marriage, in an unhappy situation. If keeping himself in some way unhappy, in order to keep his wife happy, ultimately makes him more happy than the alternative, then that is what he should do.
Monogamy is like any other "shall not" norm. You shall not kill, you shall not steal, you shall not cheat. And if I'm starving, and my victim is wealthy? I'm still stealing, and my victim is still a victim. But it may be the least wrong thing to do. The price of having a norm like monogamy is to say that if the husband in the situation above get sex elsewhere, he is still sympathetic, we understand why he's doing what he's doing, the wife is not a blameless victim, and what he still did is wrong.
She's a lying, manipulative, abusive piece of shit and he should get the hell out of there now.
Oh, and if I'm a "monogamist", does that make you an anti-monogamist, Dan?
This man is not in either position. He's in a marriage where he can't have sex at all. That's cruel and ultimately untenable.
As for what to do, I'm opposed to him staying and seeking sex outside. Why? Because this isn't just about sex. Reading his letter, I think what he wants isn't just to get his rocks off, but to have a lover. Thus, the only way he can be truly fulfilled is to have a full-blown mistress. If he does that, I really don't think he can be fair to both women. If his wife were fully-functional and just hated sex, then maybe. I say maybe because most humans think they can give enough to more than one person...and they can, but only if it's not done on the sly. The mere act of keeping it secret requires too much damn energy. I have never seen a person that could do this and be fair to both partners. So who should get the short end of the stick? The sick wife or the mistress?
Going to a pro or having one-night stands isn't going to cut it. It would do so if his wife were an intimate partner in all areas except sex. I could be reading this wrong, but it seems to me they are partners in the business end of marriage, but not the emotional/physical/sexual aspects.
So, in the end, if he wants to be truly satisfied, he needs to leave. He loves his wife and wants to take care of her. This is noble. If they are not having sex and there are no children, I see nothing he is doing for the wife that he could not do as a friend.
The ONLY two reasons to stay and cheat are (1) there's no way to keep her insured otherwise and insurance is really important and (2) social stigma.
As for the social stigma angle: If he leaves her, but continues to support her and be with her as often as she needs, the stigma of leaving a sick woman will be minimal. It's not like he's divorcing her and throwing her to the wolves.
So, unless there's a absolute, insurmountable insurance problem, leave her and stay her friend and supporter. Because that's all he is now. He's not really a husband to her.
FYI, while some states do consider infidelity in awarding spousal support, it would not matter in this case, because of the length of the marriage and her health condition. Those two factors alone are going to mean he's going to support her the rest of her life (unless she's loaded or has a high-paying job or she remarries). So I would not worry about divorce court.
If he's worried about the sympathies of friends and family, the thing that matters most is how he treats her after the divorce. If he supports her financially, practically (e.g., taking her to doctor's appointments), and emotionally, he probably will be viewed as a saint and not a villan.
I want more information not because it will mean that I judge him differently based on how he chooses to act. It would mean I would understand the situation better and be able to advise him on what to do.
I would like to know:
(1) Is she affectionate AT ALL? Does she cuddle, etc? (i.e., is it only sex he is missing, or is he missing a lover and affectionate partner?)
(2) How is their emotional intimacy?
(3) Do they have an intellectually intimate relationship? Is this important to him?
(4) Just how bad is her illness? Can she take care of herself on a day-to-day basis or does she need a partner or home care?
(4) Can she support herself or is she always going to be dependent financially? Does he have the means to support two households if they divorce?
(5) Can they get insurance for her if they divorce or do they need to stay married for that reason alone?
(6) Does she have family and friends that could take over some of the supporting roles he has been playing?
I could go on, but I think this is sufficient to paint the picture.
None of this bears on the justification for cheating or not. None of it bears on whether seeking sex outside the marriage would even be cheating in this situation. It does bear on whether or not he can leave her without feeling guilty and without supporting her the rest of her life anyway.
See, if she is totally dependent on him and really needs him, better to stay married and seek an outside source for this part of his needs. If she isn't totally dependent and he can take care of her sufficiently after the divorce, then he should leave.
It isn't about judging his actions, but about seeing what his options are.
Dan is also conflating "the adultery-is-always-wrong crowd" with the "monogamust" crowd in his query. I think adultery is always wrong, but I don't think divorce is always wrong. So if you feel circumstances are so desperate that cheating is a live option, then you ought to be willing to consider either divorce or working out terms of an open relationship that your partner knows about. Cheating is never the way to do it.
This letter writer says that fidelity matters to him--and obviously, if he's stuck it out this long! So if he cheats, he gets to feel like an asshole who betrayed his own ideals, he has to worry about lying and covering his lies, and he has to face condemnation for what he's done when, otherwise, people would likely have great sympathy for his situation.
Or he can take the honest road that will give him either a solution or a release: demand communication about this issue. If the wife is sick, she has doctors. Why haven't they already been consulted about this? What do they say about her physical and mental capacities for sex? Can they recommend another therapist? Therapy is not a one-shot instant cure--it requires effort and sometimes visiting more than one professional until solutions are found. If the wife refuses any of this, first you let her know that you're talking to the doctors and therapist along, if she won't go. And then, with their help, you work out a plan you can feel decent about. In this case, if the wife refuses all communcation or alternative forms of sexual activity, maybe that plan is going to be divorce. And not because she was betrayed, but because she has betrayed her husband by refusing even to show concern for his needs. Because it's not only about the sex, but the love and concern you have for your partner. If one person totally stops showing that, it doesn't make it okay to cheat on them--it makes it okay to demand communication or else demand an end to the relationship".
Also, notice how counselors are human and their ideas can change over the years just like everyone else's? If the "years ago" was more than ten, then trying counseling now might be less likely to result in a "sex isn't so important"/"you're doing it wrong" dismissal of the couple's problem.
Mr. Savage, you say that while we should all accept that our partners will get older, completely neglecting one's appearance is bad. This wife seems to be neglecting her psychological appearance. She should make a reasonable effort to be sexually attractive on the inside.
However, if both partners' happiness within the bounds of monogamy is the top priority, then they exhaust all options short of adulterous encounters till one wants out. Finances, children, etc, will all adjust, and adjustment is difficult. But if one of the partners cannot ever reach happiness because of an unchangeable factor such as in this case, then begin the grieving process and separate.
(dude, you're 40. Time to lay the cards on the table. You want sex or you're out. Nothing personal, but your needs aren't being met.)
I still love my wife and hope to be with her to watch our children grow and start families of their own. But I will not be held hostage to her depression, no matter what vows I made at the altar. @ #27, my wife may be forsaking all others by not cheating, but she is forsaking her husband by withdrawing so completely. Were it not for the kids, however, I'd divorce her today. And if this guy in Dan's column doesn't have kids, I'd counsel him to run for the hills.
This doesn't mean the woman can't walk, or work at a desk job, or even do housework. Her pain could just come about through penetration.
It's also possible (the letter writer doesn't say) that she could have lost her birth canal entirely, let's say to cancer. Coupled with intractable pelvic pain, this would rule out anal too.
Which leads to the next question. Is this man's objection that he can't sexually penetrate his wife? If so, and if no other sex will do (i.e. no oral, no manual, no toys), then he's got a lot more of a problem than just not being able to get off.
Because if he does try to divorce her (because he just has to have that PIV penetration), there's a very good probability that he is not going to have any money to spend on escorts, or "game," or anything else - because he is going to be supporting her for the rest of her life, even if they're divorced.
To all you MRAs out there who think this is "so unfair," well, that's marriage. You don't want that level of responsibility, don't get married. (Please. Do us all a favor.)
Would those urging divorce say the same thing if it were, let's say, a man who lost his penis in an accident, and his wife were writing in, saying "I hate dildos; it has to be a warm living cock; I'm divorcing him?"
Like another commenter, vacations are amazing-it's clear he has no problem performing. But at home-one of the kids might hear or need something, he's tired, work sucked, whatever. And this is a guy who once told me he couldn't get by as a single dude without masterbating 4 times or more a day.
Yeah we're older, yeah work does suck sometimes, yeah, our tween can be a needy pain in the ass sometimes and my older kids seem to think I'm their personal internet service but really-I have to BEG? And our kinky fun? It's been so long I don't even know where the toy bag is.
To the LW-it's not about her illness, it's about her unwillingness to even try to find a compromise. Ask for one more round of counseling and do your homework to find one who "gets" both of you and that you trust.
As for me-I love my guy-and he knocks himself out to see that we're stable and happy in so many ways. He's a great dad and he puts up with so much crap from my loser older kids that he deserves sainthood. But we're going to be having a "we need to talk" come to Jesus meeting very soon. I don't like looking at how I think that's going to go and it breaks my heart.
You say it's better to divorce than live a lie. I think it's better for my children to have two parents who love each other (and we do) modeling a loving relationship in the same house. Divorce is simply not an option for me: it would be like throwing them under an emotional bus. If my wife wants to leave, well, in the state where we live, I can't stop her, but even though I'm having sex with another woman, I still take my commitment to my wife and family very seriously.
Our anniversary is coming up. Maybe it's time to have another conversation about it and feel her out for her willingness.
Taken on the surface, this is a woman who is still capable of laying there naked, or pretending to enthusiastic encouragement, or offering use of her hand. Or if she's too upset to do those things, she's capable of going back to a counselor, or talking to her doctor, or at least talking to her husband as if this is a serious problem and he's a human being with sexual desires. What's the real story here? I have no idea--I am taking it at face value.
You didn't read the letter very close, did you? It's pretty clear that any kind of sex would do. He said:
"she is in pain, so I can understand her not wanting to have a dick inside her. But honestly I've been very supportive and would accept any sort of sex (and I've asked)."
Pay attention before you spout off. If she can work and handle normal activities of daily living, she can manage a hand job. She can try a blow job or suck on his balls, or nipples, or kiss him while he jerks off.
Also, all of you gloom and doomsayers suggesting that he will have to support her the rest of her life if he gets a divorce are flatly wrong in most American states. Property will be divided, there may or may not be a temporary maintenance provision, but if she is capable of working, anything longterm or significant is highly unlikely. LW, when it comes to this, and it will, consult a legal professional in your state.
Oddly, Dan posted such a letter just now. Check out "Another One for the Monogamusts" posted on Slog at 10:16 today.
You said that she would be unable to handle the affair if it were in the open. What makes you think nobody will ever discover the affair? All the things you fear could happen then, regardless. Personally, I'm opposed to cheating, but I can't make the moral call for you about how bad a problem that is. Still, it sounds like you might be happy if your wife found a way to address her depression or at least address some of her sexual issues. And I think it's wrong to allow her to have sex with you at all, if she doesn't know you're also doing it with someone else, so I hope at least you just stop doing it with her.
That would work wonders and destroy two marriages at the same time.
Perhaps Dan, and as I said I havent been following this but I love the man, is talking about the moral outrage that greets each new public case of cheating? Sure this is tiring but so are a number of our media led campaigns on morality. It boils down to a personal opinion approaching each case on its merits. Not every cheater is the same and context is vital. I honestly dont see what the controversy is about. Douchehat is a clown and should not be entertained.
As for the query above this man should obviously be allowed visit a prostitute. It is the perfect option as although there might be a slight possibility of him 'falling in love' with his call girl, theres no chance of it being reciprocated. This Iv found (not neccessarily through experience but instead conversations and hard boiled tv shows) to be the case
ps apologies for spelling mistakes and general incomprehension but im rushing this
Perhaps Dan, and as I said I havent been following this but I love the man, is talking about the moral outrage that greets each new public case of cheating? Sure this is tiring but so are a number of our media led campaigns. It boils down to a personal opinion approaching each case on its merits. Not every cheater is the same and context is vital. I honestly dont see what the controversy is about. Douchehat is a clown and should not be entertained.
As for the query above this man should obviously be allowed visit a prostitute. It is the perfect option as although there might be a slight possibility of him 'falling in love' with his call girl, theres no chance of it being reciprocated. This Iv found (not neccessarily through experience but instead conversations and hard boiled tv shows) to be the case
ps apologies for spelling mistakes and general incomprehension but im rushing this
If there's one thing I've learned during these years of being dependent on others, it's that you have to give back in other ways! If you need others to care for you, you have to make them feel cared for in return, however you can; you can't just be this black hole of need and grimness. The temptation is there, sometimes. Sometimes it is an effort to smile and say something loving, but you have to make that effort, for yourself as well as the others in your life.
And I call *total bullshit* on the whole, "I'm well enough to hold a job and do ordinary things but far too sick to fuck you," thing. She may indeed be depressed, and possibly she has other emotional issues, but one thing she certainly is is colossally selfish.
And short-sighted. Because a loving sexual relationship is not only entirely possible--it's can be the one thing that makes a life of chronic illness worth living. Orgasms relieve pain! And when you make the effort to be loving, you make yourself feel better. You are putting money in a bank that will pay you back richly in endorphins and well-being.
I would never have imagined this when I was young and healthy, but I'm now in the happiest and most fulfilling relationship of my life, and it's partly because I have consistently made the effort to give back to my partner both sexually and in other ways.
We've now built up such a storehouse of love and good will that I honestly feel better just being in the same room with him. if I am in pain, he can relieve it just by resting his hand on my back. And a nice trip to the sack can pull me out of a nasty flare of my illness.
I don't know what possessed the LW to sacrifice his youth to this travesty of a marriage, but it does seem to me that his wife got where she is by consistently making that other choice, the choice to huddle inward, to, as John Gottmann says, "turn away rather than turn toward."
That is just so sad, and makes me feel incredibly grateful for what I have. And I have it because I made the effort.
Yeah, that's not going to work at all.
Shouldn't this guy just be honest, even if it means divorce?
First, it seems pretty clear that he's not going to get sex at home. So, then he decides whether that's a dealbreaker. Of course, easier said than done. If it isn't, then he's making a conscious sacrifice to stay together. If it is a dealbreaker, then he has to go to her and say:
"Honey, I love you - as much now as I did when we first got married. And I value our marriage over everything in my life. But I'm also a person, and I periodically need intimacy and sexual pleasure. And, that hasn't been part of our marriage for a long, long time. I want to figure something out, and I need you to tell me what you want, and don't want. And we'll take it from there."
At the very least he's confronting the issue. If she says "no sex" then he has to decide what to do with that information - cheat or leave. But, as it is right now, he's stuck in limbo and the burden is still on him as he has begrudgingly accepted this situation for years...
Shouldn't this guy just be honest, even if it means divorce?
First, it seems pretty clear that he's not going to get sex at home. So, then he decides whether that's a dealbreaker. Of course, easier said than done. If it isn't a dealbreaker, then he's making a conscious sacrifice to stay together. If it is a dealbreaker, then he has to go to her and say:
"Honey, I love you - as much now as I did when we first got married. And I value our marriage over everything in my life. But I'm also a person, and I periodically need intimacy and sexual pleasure. And, that hasn't been part of our marriage for a long, long time. I want to figure something out, and I need you to tell me what you want, and don't want. And we'll take it from there."
At the very least he's confronting the issue. If she says "no sex" then he has to decide what to do with that information - cheat or leave. But, as it is right now, he's stuck in limbo and the burden is still on him as he has begrudgingly accepted this situation for years...
Marriage is life--you're not very likely to have sex when you're 90; you're not likely to have sex when you're 80. That, in your case, sex stopped before you were 40--oh, well. You're married--act like an adult, not like some rutting antelope who is so overwhelmed by his testosterone level that he is incapable of, you know, living up to his commitments.
(And if the words, "that's easy for you to say..." are poised on your lips--I'm in a very similar boat. When I stood up in front of the entire community and pledged my troth I said what I meant--and I meant what I said. That meant good parts of marriage, and disappointing aspects of marriage. That's life.)
The fidelity quid pro quo is not "I won't have sex with anyone else, and in exchange you won't have sex with anyone else." Rather, it's "I will have sex with you, which opens up a lot of risks like heartbreak, STDs, and pregnancy. So in exchange, you won't have sex with anyone else." After all, I have a right to know the bedroom activities of people I'm fucking. I have no right to know the bedroom activities of people I'm not fucking. And it's not entirely clear why marriage would change that calculus.
So if one spouse refuses to have sex ever, they've broken their marriage vows just as surely as a cheating spouse would have. In fact, it's the exact same vow, just different sides of the agreement. The sex-deprived spouse is the wronged party, and they get to choose what to do with the marriage. As with adultery, they are perfectly within their rights to end the marriage, both legally and ethically.
But. The wronged spouse doesn't have to end the marriage. They can try to salvage it by asking their partner to make some changes. And if their partner refuses to change, then divorce may be the only opinion.
tl;dr: Sex denied spouses are just as wronged as spouses who were cheated on. They should be treated the same both legally and socially. That means being entitled to a divorce, or making strong demands that the other partner must fulfill in order to save the marriage.
Sometimes the answers are easy: plan more weekend trips, sometimes not: find a good therapist to advise, console, and referee you(all). In our case hurdle one: we're screamers. So, spontaneity is pretty much out. So plan for afternoons where all the kids are safely (far) away at some event, and have fun. Hurdle two: my wife is a squirter. That lovely development came out when we were on vacation trying for kid #2. (I always knew she was holding something back no matter how out of control she got. She thought she was going to pee, and couldn't stand to let go. There I was face covered in not revulsion, but awe (and a good healthy jet really is awesome) and dripping liquid, and things have been even better since). So plan for keeping a few beach towels handy while the kids are out. Make it a game and keep it fun, just like all the dates you're having (hint, dates with the kids can work too).
I would be the first to admit it is almost impossible to get awesome mind blowing sex with regularity, while the kids are just down the hall. But, to use a food metaphor, Lobster everyday would start to lose it's magic, and when you need it, nothing is better than good comfy food. Work out what you need, then on what you want. I hope that you get everything you wish for!
@188: Thank you for your message.
The part where we're not ancient Catholics and a worse marriage is grounds for divorce without social sanction.
Marriages that only end in misery should not be. The problem is not that she's sick or just that he's not getting off, but that she's not meeting ANY of his romantic needs.
Marriage always requires compromises. Sometimes its about sex. Sometimes its about kids, or work, or where to live and so on. This all means that marriage is not easy and there will be strains between partners. That strain can only be overcome if the two can communicate and cooperate. If not, his unacknowledged sacrifice will slowly destroy the love and faith that keeps the marriage alive for him.
Just being honest doesn't mean things will work out, but it is the only path forward to any chance of happiness. Coming from someone who wasn't honest early enough and caused heartbreak, pain and loss for all, I can't stress the importance enough.
It is possible (and likely) that he's not telling all he knows.
It is even more likely that he doesn't know everything. Maybe she IS having sex with someone else. This kind of thing happens, and happens all the time. It could be that he is no good in bed. It could be that he is GREAT in bed, and she can't handle it, and needs someone who is no good.
Yes - her unwillingness to discuss it is CLEAR emotional abuse.
Yes - it is possible, and VERY likely that all the counseling and therapy they have tried did not work, and in all probability, no amount of counseling in the future will work. You can't FORCE someone into mental health, and honest, open communication, especially if their manipulative, controlling, parasitic situation is working for them. (on the other hand, he might try some individual counseling to help him deal with this situation).
Usually, abuse victims are unwilling to accept that there is abuse going on. They often will defend their abusers, and the behavior. You see it all over this guy's post.
Yes - they should divorce.
Yes - divorce laws; family law, makes this pretty much a horrible choice for everyone involved.
Yes - she may be financially dependent upon him, and in most states, will probably remain so. (no matter how horribly she is abusing him, emotionally).
Yes - it's possible that she "stacked it" that way, on purpose, because she is too emotionally incapable of independence. (it is easier to manipulate someone into taking care of her, than it is to take on the hard work of taking care of herself).
OR - it is possible that he is financially dependent upon her. These dependent situations are really not healthy marriages to begin with. That's NOT a reason to be married. That's a reason to become financially independent.
The other question I have for HIM is:
Time is running out? Why do you feel you have to have x-amount of sex before you die? Is it some kind of game? Is somebody keeping score? Seriously people. I mean - I too, have a huge sex drive, (and a partner with. . . . issues). But, is sex really THAT important?
Think about what you're REALLY missing. It's not the SEX. It's the INTIMACY. It's the closeness that you would have with a sex-partner. If you start having sex with someone else, you're going to start having that closeness with someone else. Your marriage certainly WILL suffer. There is no doubt. (It's already suffering though - because the wife is shutting him out, because she is terrified of physical intimacy - vaginal penetration, pain, is just the excuse. She won't even give the poor guy a hand job! She won't even accept him telling her she's pretty!).
This is why I believe that Monogamy IS natural, and IS important, and IS necessary. But what is also necessary, is the ability to eject from a relationship that is crashing and burning, without having to suffer ongoing lifelong punishment (in the form of spousal support) - just because some people are able to fake intimacy just long enough to get married, and squirt out a kid, and then throw up walls because they're too inhibited and damaged to allow any personal closeness.
It is possible (and likely) that he's not telling all he knows.
It is even more likely that he doesn't know everything. Maybe she IS having sex with someone else. This kind of thing happens, and happens all the time. It could be that he is no good in bed. It could be that he is GREAT in bed, and she can't handle it, and needs someone who is no good.
Yes - her unwillingness to discuss it is CLEAR emotional abuse.
Yes - it is possible, and VERY likely that all the counseling and therapy they have tried did not work, and in all probability, no amount of counseling in the future will work. You can't FORCE someone into mental health, and honest, open communication, especially if their manipulative, controlling, parasitic situation is working for them. (on the other hand, he might try some individual counseling to help him deal with this situation).
Usually, abuse victims are unwilling to accept that there is abuse going on. They often will defend their abusers, and the behavior. You see it all over this guy's post.
Yes - they should divorce.
Yes - divorce laws; family law, makes this pretty much a horrible choice for everyone involved.
Yes - she may be financially dependent upon him, and in most states, will probably remain so. (no matter how horribly she is abusing him, emotionally).
Yes - it's possible that she "stacked it" that way, on purpose, because she is too emotionally incapable of independence. (it is easier to manipulate someone into taking care of her, than it is to take on the hard work of taking care of herself).
OR - it is possible that he is financially dependent upon her. These dependent situations are really not healthy marriages to begin with. That's NOT a reason to be married. That's a reason to become financially independent.
The other question I have for HIM is:
Time is running out? Why do you feel you have to have x-amount of sex before you die? Is it some kind of game? Is somebody keeping score? Seriously people. I mean - I too, have a huge sex drive, (and a partner with. . . . issues). But, is sex really THAT important?
Think about what you're REALLY missing. It's not the SEX. It's the INTIMACY. It's the closeness that you would have with a sex-partner. If you start having sex with someone else, you're going to start having that closeness with someone else. Your marriage certainly WILL suffer. There is no doubt. (It's already suffering though - because the wife is shutting him out, because she is terrified of physical intimacy - vaginal penetration, pain, is just the excuse. She won't even give the poor guy a hand job! She won't even accept him telling her she's pretty!).
This is why I believe that Monogamy IS natural, and IS important, and IS necessary. But what is also necessary, is the ability to eject from a relationship that is crashing and burning, without having to suffer ongoing lifelong punishment (in the form of spousal support) - just because some people are able to fake intimacy just long enough to get married, and squirt out a kid, and then throw up walls because they're too inhibited and damaged to allow any personal closeness.
I don't see this as a problem, but I'd be interested to hear what others think. We used to act that way, but in the aftermath of our big marital shake-up, now we have sex whenever we want it and we're both home, morning noon or night. We have a lock on the bedroom door, and we try to keep the moans low if the kids are awake, but I don't think there are any rules that say children should not hear their parents having sex. Do other people think that's outrageous?
Hell, maybe the college "hook up" rules should apply in family homes as well. When kids see a tie/sock/whatever on the bedroom door handle, they know the parents are having sex and they should come back later.
My mind, it has expanded.
In ye olden days, there was little privacy and kids would be in the same room. I don't think it's THAT weird.
If only the homophobes had a similar thought process.
Originally, when I'd read this article a couple of hours ago, I had a far sterner comment in mind. But time (and dinner) have mellowed me – a bit.
The problem, LW, is that your wife is the one who has broken the bonds of matrimony. Why would I say that? Well, beyond any discussion of monogamy, I have always believed that the primary focus (or "job", if you will) of a newly-married couple should be on each other and on the relationship. Note I didn't mention sex there; but, unless the couple has a prior agreement (re asexuality or other idiosyncracies), sex is generally considered to be part of the contract as well as a willingness to be GGG.
But sex hasn't been part of your contract for the majority of your marriage. Yet, your wife honours her obligation to her place of employment (even if it's not a stereotypical "married to the job" identity), so that appears to be her primary focus. But can you imagine her crying at work if she were confronted with an inadequate aspect of her job performance? No, because that would not be professional. Yet that is her first line of defence when dealing with your differences whenever you try to discuss them.
I'd also say that, as she has said in no uncertain terms that she will not tolerate your straying, there appear to be hints of a dominant-submissive vibe (except for the matter of the tears, but IMO that's an adjunct to her demand for compliance).
What can you try to do? You can try different counselors, also a sex therapist. Because, like another commenter pointed out, sex creates good feelings, if not orgasms then certainly endorphins which – surprise – mask pain. It's always worked for me when I'm in too much pain to attempt even a simple chore but the prospect of sex later perks me up considerably and the benefits linger long afterwards. That's why I find it peculiar that she will expend energy on work and other peripheral activities but not on ANY type of sexual activity with you.
What else? Change the rules of the marriage. This may be heavy-handed, but you could give her an ultimatum to stop working and use the energy that's dissipated throughout the day on other people into repairing the obvious hole in the bond between you.
If she remains closed to changing her attitude and behaviours, then you probably should divorce her (emotionally, though not legally) and go out to live your life anew with the prospect of finding intimacy and sexual satisfaction. But, before you do that, you work out a new contract by which you will take care of her financially (should she need it) and provide for her health care, so that she cannot claim that you have abandoned her. Because she already abandoned you years ago.
Even if this is the ultimate destination for your marriage, there's no reason why you cannot remain amicable. But you should not have to endure her irrational restrictions.
Honestly, I can't imagine being in such a situation for 18 years. I hope you will find some resolution to the emptiness within you.
And it would do a lot to heighten sex positivity in society and shatter the notion that OLD people (OMG, like super gross) don't do THAT THING any more.
We do have quiet cuddling sex 3-5 times a week, it just isn't full on lose ourself in ecstasy mode. And when I said we're screamers I mean LOUD (as in the neighbors can hear us on a good throw, with the windows closed).
Point of etiquette? How should one respond to someone pounding on the wall (during the middle of the day) in a ship/hotel while you are celebrating your marriage? The people next cabin to us had turned up their stereo to the point we had difficulty talking, so we pounded on the wall. We didn't understand why they had the music so loud until they pounded on the wall while we pounded each other. As it was, we laughed about it and carried on more quietly...
Just thinking about that incident, and the great sex we had watching the islands of the Alaskan interior passage going by, makes me so glad I took the gamble of monogamy. It's like hetero sex, I simply can't fathom doing it any other way. All I can do is hope for that kind of joy for as many people as possible, in any way they are able to receive it. (Just don't pound on our wall, and we won't pound on yours)
Peace.
There will always be tragic specific circumstances that illustrate the problems with the general and inflexible application of any principle or belief. The LW needs to have a heart to heart with his wife. I know how difficult this would be for me and a lot of people. Excluding BDSM enthusiasts, who wants to intentionally hurt those you love. He needs to really and truly tell her how much he loves, needs, wants, and desires her and doesn't want anyone else. That he understands her health problems and doesn't blame her for them. That he wants to stay married to her and remain faithful, but he is being torn apart by the conflict between those feelings and his (natural) physical needs for sex and intimacy. That it has reached a point where he just can't continue to live like this and that something has to be done about the situation. Justifiable cheating does not appear to be a viable solution.