Blogs Aug 12, 2011 at 9:31 am


Already trying to nullify democracy?
One set of liars is going to win no matter how the voting goes. And the losing set of liars will sit and fume that the other side lied more convincingly, is all. PSN has been cherrypicking and hyping fear from the get-go, taunting the fat cat set to match them. The light-my-cigar-with-a-Benjamin crowd decided to outdo them.

But neither side owns the public policy aspects of replacing the viaduct, do they? Just saying.
Odds are great for reject, either way. I can see your point and exasperation, though.

The tunnel won't do any good for Seattle -- in fact, the FEIS says it will make things worse. But damn if it ain't good for developers and freeway fans.

I'd hope Seattle eggheads read the data instead of the intellectually dishonest BS dripping out of corporate lackeys, but whatever. We're only nerds most of the times. I still think we'll reject, but it's hard to feel great about Seattle politics when one group outspends another just to lie so hard that even Karl Rove is throwing up his hands in disgust.

On the upside, one little hiccup in the tunnel and we get a brand new City Council! :)
Btw Dom, will u stfu after losing a democratic vote?

And how come if u win voters are 'informed' but when u lose they suddenly become 'ignorant'?
@2: One side sets to profit very handsomely. From air rights to improvements to getting kickbacks from city and state government to "beautify". There's a lot of cash in the underlying policy that pushed the tunnel this far.

And as far as the FEIS goes, well, it does say pretty much everything tunnel opponents have been saying this entire time. When you say someone's cherrypicking when it's difficult to find actual good data in the same document, it's hard to take that as some kind of patent dishonesty.
Let's move forward Vs. Let's whine even before the election.

Americans are optimists ladies.
imo, the only hope for real change is if big money continues winning on these issues, while turning around and giving us all a big shit sandwich for thanks. i just don't see any path in which people will be willing to acknowledge the reality of just how predatory our society's leadership has become wo/ everyone personally having to share a shit sandwich. there just isn't enough empathy in the world; we all have to take a bite. and the tunnel will be one HELL of a shit sandwich.
McGinn is only concerned about billing cost overruns to the rest of the state.

Now that both Gubernatorial candidates have assured him this is the case, there is no more argument from the powers that be.
I struggled with deciding how to vote on this. In the end I voted No, and the misinformation from the pro-tunnel campaign was a significant factor in my decision.
"No, and the misinformation from the pro-tunnel campaign was a significant factor in my decision."

So you must know the mystical source of funding for surface/transit! Tell us! PLease!

And how come if the tunnel will dump cars on city streets, the same effect with surface/transit will magically make them disappear as people 'adjust'?
I do love watching the loony left argue against public works and tolling. Very fun.
I love how democracy comes down to having large sums to dump into TV adverts. Because people are lard-asses with lime Jell-O between their ears, just sitting for endless hours absorbing the lies. Repeated and repeated, a-la-Goebbels, it becomes The Truth. It's NOT evil corporations, bribed politicians, et al that are fucking America, it's the couch potato surrender of their brains.
Funny math is funny. All the first graph shows is that larger contributions contribute more to the pot which is obvious. The point you are trying to make is that there are a surprising amount of people donating large amounts, that is not the case. You will notice that there are actually quite a few small donations and a relatively small number of large donations. The large donations are simply larger, this is always true in any political fundraising effort.

The tunnel is a giant crock of shit so we need to be sure we don't use our own fallacious logic when fighting it. There is no story here other than the usual story that rich people hold a lot of power in our political system.
" people are lard-asses with lime Jell-O between their ears, just sitting for endless hours absorbing the lies"

Atta boy! Calling the American voters idiots has been the looney left, progressive's ticket to oblivion since 1972.
I'm pro-tunnel, but I realize no solution has a majority support. I think the referendum will fail.

If it succeeds, I don't blame money. It's because nobody likes the Surface Highway/Interstate5/Transit alternative. At some point the SHIT supporters have to grasp the fact that it polls dead last in support. If the choice goes threeways with a rebuilt viaduct, nobody wins. If it goes head-to-head tunnel vs SHIT, then SHIT loses.

The referendum succeeding depends on if the repair/rebuild proponents break for the tunnel, or hold out the process to restart the debate for THEIR vision. And their vision contains REBUILD vs REPAIR factions, so they have to figure that out too.

Gotta love Seattle Process. So many factions, we can vote on things FOREVER without doing anything.
#12 I've been wondering how long before somebody comapred tunnel to Nazis. Congratulations! You win!
Yeah, maybe people would have been less likely to accept that surface option would replace the viaduct with "nothing"" line if some stupid, stupid writer/editor at a certain stupid, stupid Seattle Alt-Weelky hadn't first published an article (stupid, stupidly) titled:

Downtown Traffic After the Multibillion-Dollar Tunnel Would Be Nearly Identical to Shutting Down the Viaduct and Doing Nothing

Tit for tat, Dominic. Nothing stopped McGinn from lying about his position on the tunnel when he ran for mayor.
@18: Why run an honest campaign when you can just scream "you liar, I'm lying too and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to do it"?

That's totally mature!
At this point I'm just looking forward to being able to say "We told you so" when the tunnel is complete in 15 years or whenever and it turns out to have fixed nothing. (Unless I happen to be talking to someone involved with the construction companies and real estate developers that stand to profit from all of this, in whose case the tunnel will have accomplished everything it was designed to do.)
Supreme Ruler, the current Governor says she wouldn't bill Seattle with overruns - but she didn't veto the part of the law that says Seattle would be. She said she would have transit funding - but she DID veto the part of the law that would have allowed it.

The legislature has a supermajority in favor of billing cost overruns to Seattle. The governor isn't the one who gets to decide.
I don't get how Seattle could even be to the point of attempting this. Have you guys not heard of the Big Dig in Boston? Billions over budget (roughly double the expected cost) and taking over a decade longer than expected. Boston was totally worthless and impossible to get around while construction was going on and it's barely any better now that it's done. Repeating their fuckup will be the worst thing Seattle has ever done, I guarantee it.
No matter how we vote, they will build the tunnel, and then regret it for the rest of Seattle's history, when it ends up being a huge, money-sucking failure.
@22, this project looks more similar to, if smaller than, the Madrid M30 project that undergrounded Spain's busiest road and created miles of new waterside parks. Dragados, the tunnel company WSDOT hired for ours, finished Madrid's recently.
At this point the best-case scenario to getting rid of the tunnel would be the deep bore drill getting stuck either beneath the bus tunnel, as it runs under very expensive and irreplaceable bus tunnel facilities and very expensive real estate, or if it gets stuck underneath this approximate area.

Either case, since you have to basically strip mine straight down to rescue the thing, would probably mean having to eminent domain very, very expensively, knocking apart the bus tunnel or major buildings. The private litigation would leave us with a useless tunnel that would either become a tourist attraction or would be filled in by concrete. Best case, right there. Let's pray for very big rocks.
Pro-Tunnel fuckwads, when did you all move en masse from Bellevue to Seattle?

Why do the pro-tunnel folks have such a huge dripping wet boner for McGinn? McGinn will not build the tunnel himself. He has not asked to be buried beneath it. He will probably die long before its construction is completed. The tunnel was a vision in the minds of cave men long before McGinn entered the scene. I get it. You don't like McGinn. Now, can we talk about the tunnel?

It's not that people in Seattle love "the process." It's that some of us actually prefer to be informed about shit we're being asked to vote for and pay for while others wag their tails and do whatever they are told by their political party.
Only problem with that glowing bit of prognostication, Joe, is that the DPT won't be tunneling under EITHER of those locations!

Please, do try to keep up, will ya? (Or have you also stopped following Dom's tunnel links at this point as well?)
The funny part is we still have the three lawsuits, the mandatory EPA hearings, the listed species impaction hearings, and the bond failure fallout after this.

At some point, on would wish wiser heads would prevail, but too many people got bribed with Cush jobs later on to sign on the pro-tunnel side.
@25, Joe, hoping for catastrophic failure just to be proved right. Shame, shame.

@26, Don't you ever dare say I'm from Blahvue. I'm pro-tunnel because the other options are completely unacceptable. The viaduct is a noisy eyesore that has to come down and NOT be rebuilt. The SHIT (Surface Highway/Interstate 5/Transit) plan is stupid on its face. What's left is a tunnel. I voted for the cut-and-cover tunnel in the advisory election, and I'm pro deep-bore tunnel now.

I lived in NW Seattle for years and used Aurora + the viaduct to go to West Seattle, to the airport, and to bypass I5 (599 to Tukwila). And the reverse trips too. I'd pay a toll to make those trips, the tunnel is in my interest. I don't trust WSDOTs numbers about toll avoidance (people said they would drive around Olympia to avoid tolls on the Narrows, but they don't.) or driver behavior in general. The tunnel will get used and be successful.

Deep bored tunnels get built all over the world, all the time. This one may be biggest in diameter, but the technology and engineering is nothing new. For length it's really small, actually. It'll be one-upped in size within a few years, probably something 30 miles long under the Alps or road/rail hybrid in China. The Chicken Little's in these threads really annoy me, as if tunneling under Seattle has never been done before.
@24: Through solid gypsum and hardened clay ;)

@29: Chicken littles like those that scream "GRIDLOCK DISASTER"?

I see.

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