@97 - you can talk about "basic research" as if this is high-minded Science, but a lot more money goes into research which will make a profit (hair drugs for men; ED drugs for men), and a lot less goes for research which will improve women's lives at low or no cost (how to help women learn about their bodies, their fertility, and their sexual pleasure). You can blame "the Puritan limitations of this society" but we're not too Puritanical to attach sensors to penises or address ED. Just too Puritanical to focus on women's bodies. Forgive me for not accepting this study as the best science can offer.

@99 "And I'm certainly not going to bring a box along with me for you to use. " Well said!

@101: yes, that's exactly what I said. Our Puritanism makes women's pleasure taboo.

I agree that we need more and better studies, especially on women's pleasure; I disagree with you that studies on visual stimuli are completely useless. We are learning things from them, including the limitations of visual stimuli, and ideas for further research. For science to work, basic stuff needs to be thoroughly established through repeated controlled studies. It's not enough to just look at what some people say about their experiences.

@BlackRose: yes, there really is. This thread is full various examples of it, in varying degrees. I mean, look at James T42--he's loaded with baggage, and is striving mightily to counter it (and that's not a criticism of you at all, James, I know exactly where you're coming from, I'm with you, I'm just not as angry about it at this point in my life. You are, and that's a fine and valid thing. Rock on.)

The "baggage" for males is this: we're confused, we're on the fence, we're just sensualists, we can't have real relationships with gay men, we can't be monogamous with men *or* women, we can hide in safe heterosexual relationships whenever we choose, and on and on. The issue is that the word "bisexual" has become charged with identity politics. It's not merely descriptive. It's not a dictionary term. It's freighted with assumptions. Maybe not for you--and yay! That's a grand thing, good on ya--but it is for a lot of people, particularly those who are bound up with sexual identity politics. I've gotten more shit from gay men than from straight men or women about my proclivities, and I define "shit" as "skepticism about my self-definition." I don't need that nonsense, so I reject the term.

So yeah, it does limit me--or it would, if I let it. I choose not to. Less than a month ago I was flirting heavily at a Pride pre-party with a who I thought was a nice Ecuadorian fellow who nonetheless visibly recoiled when I mentioned that I'd had an 8-year relationship with a woman. Who told his friend, "Oh, he *says* he's not gay," as though it was a joke.

The difference for women? Straight males get off on bi women. The culture of the Male Gaze well supports the fluidity of female sexuality. Polyamory sites are full of couples looking for the unicorn-like HBB--the Hot Bi Babe--to join their triad. Very few are seeking a man to complete their tripod. Chelsea Handler jokes that anybody who's anybody has had a threesome, with two women and a man, because "one set of balls is enough." La-di-fucking-da. Some of us would like an additional set of balls to go with the vulva, you know? But it's not really supported in this culture.

Anyway. I could (obviously) go on and on about this, but there, BlackRose, is your answer: yeah, there's baggage. It's cool that you don't see it, but it's there.

I am an out and bi male for a long time (about 24 years) and These last 6 years have been the weirdest in forms of discrimination, harassment, and misperseptions due to one stupid scientific study. It is a bit outrageaous to have your sexual orientation on trial and up to public debate. I endured it but after a series of harassment I became clinically depressed, though feel better now. I think the misinformation out there about bisexual men is not only damaging but keeps men firmly in the closet which is horrible. I have a guess that many closeted bisexuals don't necessarily go on the down low but I think constantly conforming and hiding oneself contributes to mental health issues or alcohol abuse if a person is ashamed of one whole side of himself. For me the biggest disappointment has been hearing my gay peers negative opinions. But I have always had really good gay and straight friends. I think there is a lot of healing to do on this issue for many people.

It has been difficult being bisexual - I don't like the loaded word either, most bisexuals I know get married and become invisible and I know 2 in same sex partnerships. But I have lived a life of alternating from women to men, not because I am fickle I work hard making relationships work. One thing is for me interest in the "other sex" is minimal in either same sex or opposite sex relationships - in the form of boy crushes or girl crushes - where as most people think bisexual means you gotta have both for me it has meant versatility in my affections more than incontrollable lust. I prefer girls for several reasons: I love vaginal sex and I romantically bond better but I have met two very very feme gay men that I had strong feelings for and went for it (in otherwords it was more than sex). I only wish more bisexual men were out of the closet so I had support. I stopped hanging in gay crowds because I felt "other" unless I was dating a guy - because they would disrespect my girlfriends, but straight guys don't get it either I have had to tell my friend the guy I was dating was not an experiment. My hope is that this all changes - I knew I was bisexual at around 14 - young bisexual men need support and I am doing what I can to help.

Back again. I am now volunteering for an LGBT center and they are having me speak to young bisexual men. "young" means 28 - bi guys usually take a little longer, I came out early out of late 1980's naïveté but don't regret it, actually if a guy is confident they will have no problem finding dates with girls or boys in your 20's, but more recently it has been a struggle for me because I really wanted to find the right partner, I found a bisexual woman my age, who doesn't mind a more polyamorous relationship from time to time. I think bisexual men and women should do more to create community because it creates a dating pool (at least) but we also need to help each other and get things like legal advocacy. I and other men and women (but men especially) have experienced serious discrimination and yet it is largely unknown. I told an x boyfriend that the first Bailey study has been like a mini Stonewall for bisexual men. As a result 3 new bisexual organisations have started in my area, and finally I am meeting men and women who are out or at least comfortable with themselves. Come girls and guys let's all come out and create the lives we are meant to live.

OH I hate this stuff. I examined sexuality to a point where I don't care anymore. What if you came out of the closet when you were 15, have always identified as gay, are still gay, but are getting to an age where you really don't care anymore. What if straight porn turns you on, unless its gay amateur porn...because the guys in the gay videos are modeling too much. What if, as a gay man you don't want to be marketed to and your burnt out on the pushy activist scene. I could pull a Christopher Guest and marry a woman as long as she knew I was gay. I really just want pot legalized at this age and I want good art and fun back.

A male friend with a high sex drive considers himself mostly oriented toward women, but absolutely willing to go with guys if that is what is available. He has told me his first sexual experience as a teen was with a man, and his reaction was, "Wow, that felt great! Imagine how amazing that would be with a girl!"

All his relationships have been with women, and most of his casual messing around too. But during some periods of his life he has been in mostly male social circles, and then he took advantage of what was on offer. So yeah, I believe a guy can be bisexual leaning straight, as well as other places on the sexual orientation spectrum.

I should add, my friend, who jokingly refers to himself as "heteroflexible," is generally pretty open about his range of sexual experiences, respectful of people of all gender orientations and all gender identities, and speaks out against homophobia and transphobia whenever he comes across it. I'd say that goes to show that it isn't cowardice or a desire for heterosexual privilege that motivates him.

Perhaps we should all STOP policing each others professed identities and desires and just support each other. Perhaps some men lie, who cares if they do. I know I fit a stereotype of the promiscuous bisexual BUT I have had safe sex with 25 female partners and 19 male partners including LTRs with both women and men and still I have many people doubt my identity or that it was "just a phase" etc. the most painful thing is to have my long term hetero relationships seen as a lie or sham or phase, or my same sex relationships seen as an experiment. I have even outlined my entire sexual history and it is seen by some educated gay men as humanly impossible. There are many bisexual men in history Keruoac, Rauschenberg, Twombly, Olivier, Wilde, Julien Beck, but all of this is dismissed. Julien Beck is one of the most interesting because he did whatever he wanted and had a wife and a 2 male lovers openly even though such an arrangement was frowned upon by the 1950's art world who wanted to see the world in completely gay and straight terms.

Well, I'm glad Dan is trying to change- I applaud the effort. I'm lesbian, and though I know some men who have claimed to be bi and then turned out to be gay, I also know men who really are bi and are in long term relationships with other men. Either way, I don't see why anyone should reserve themselves the privilege to outright tell bi men and women that they're wrong about their own sexuality- how could anyone possibly look inside another person's head and tell exactly what they're attraced to? That's ridiculous. As someone said earlier, it's just like when anyone of my relatives told me that "it's just a phase", "you haven't found the right man yet", etc. That hurt, a lot, and I don't ever want to inflict that pain on someone else whether they turn out to be bi, gay, or straight.

Seriously, it baffles me how people seem incapable of imagining that there could not be any other sexualities than straight/gay. Heck, even asexuals seem to have a hard time getting accepted as "real". People really should learn to meet each other as individuals, take others seriously and suspend their own prejudices, rather than pretend they can know what every person is like based on a general idea of the group that person represents.

Yes, maybe a lot of bisexuals disappear into heterosexual marriages (it's not uncommon that gays get married in heterosexual relationships as well before coming out, for that matter), but whatever- that's their business, not mine, and I'm not gonna hate them for that or anything. I still have bi friends in long-term same-sex relationships that want to get married, to get their relationship (and sexuality) socially accepted, etc. I support them, and they support me.

I'm not gay, so I don't know what it feels like to be completely alien to the culture around you. I totally understand being defensive and even cruel, because social stigma is so strong to us as a species.

But I want to bring up two things in response.

First, I think we can agree here's a conversation that needs to stop happening:

Is so-and-so gay?
No, he likes pussy.

variation:

Are you gay?
No. I like pussy.

Second: Gay/straight is a binary that obviously appeals to people, the same way Christian/heathen does, or natural/unnatural. Bisexuals don't have it incredibly easy just because we can blend in. And I'm sorry to go all caps but this is where gays start to show their own homophobia. YOU CAN'T BLEND WHO YOU NATURALLY ARE. My whole life growing up was one heartbreak after another. Aladdin never kissed Jafaar. Why do I miss my friend so much? Why do the other boys punch me when we wrestle? My own sexuality never even registered on my mind.

Do you see how hard it can be to figure shit out when whatever you want to call this phobia is is the standard? Here's a simple exercise. Find a map of where professional wrestling is popular in the US and compare it with where bans on gay marriage have happened. Considering all types of legal status, Google insights shows a dramatic correlation.

You're right we should take it on ourselves and come out, just for our own defense. I applaud that. After I came out to my friend, he stopped believing homosexuality was a slight against nature. But it's really unfair to put it just on maturity.

We are not morons. We are not the enemy.