"Even though all the faiths derived from the Abrahamic traditions are quite explicitly misogynistic, I reserve the right to be deeply offended by anybody making that observation. Dressing this way is my lifestyle choice, even though it wasn't really a free choice, since in the culture I was born into I would have faced severe consequences for making any other choice."

@1: So do you think she shouldn't be allowed to veil herself?
I was born into a society that has what some may consider rather stuffy norms concerning nudity, but I'll defend to the death my right to wear clothes.

basically, "you are not the boss of me".

I guess Muslim women just aren't people, huh Proteus? I have a feeling nothing they would do would ever please you, thanks to your precognitions about what a Muslim is.

@2: She's allowed to wear a veil and other people are allowed to point out that the veil seems to be a product of a society that places a much lower value on women. She is engaging in a meaningful act and trying to prevent others from attaching any meaning to it.

@5: Of course she's a person. What the hell are you talking about?

@6: You make it sound as if she can't truly be a free woman if she's still wearing the veil. Why do you care what she wears?

I think it's awesome that Jen, of all people, starts a post with "I just love my Egyptian Friend...". That should be appended to the race article as a footnote.

"Or, I may tomorrow take it off and it’ll be my choice, my life! I may decide that I have to find another way to express my faith and live it! Because I AM A MUSLIM AND PROUD."

Honest confusion here: Can a muslim woman elect not to wear a veil and express her faith in a different manner? Is it a geographical thing (i.e., no problem in The Netherlands but a problem elsewhere)? Help me understand.

@8: I'm saying the veil is not a neutral fashion statement, like wearing courdoroy. As far as "free," well that's an interesting question -- Did somebody raised from infancy in a given religious and cultural tradition really choose that for themselves? Do they have the right to insist everybody else in the world refrain from making them question it?

I draw a big distinction between, say, passing laws that forbid people from wearing the veil (or a fez or a yarmulke or temple garments or whatever) and merely pointing out the historical and cultural contexts of those choices in an open dialogue. Adherence to a religious tradition does not, or at least should not, grant the kind of immunity from criticism that religious people so often seek to claim for themselves.

Of course she has the right to wear a veil. But that's not at issue here.

While I don't think there needs to be any laws written commanding what someone may or may not wear, and perhaps this comes out of being just a sub-urban white woman in America, but I do question any woman who claims to be free and wears a veil. Hey, it is your right to wear whatever you want and I don't think we need to go into a laborious debate over where other clothing norms come from to tackle this particular issue. I find it very difficult to imagine (and have yet to hear) any argument for wearing a veil that does not tie back directly to the wanton misogyny that is part of Muslim culture.

Can you choose to be a second class citizen? Sure - you go right ahead, I won't stop you, but I don't think I'm a racist to think you are making a mistake and that your judgement is clouded and wrong. I think we are all entitled to our opinions of other people's choices and behaviors as long as we stop well behind the line of making laws about what they can and can't do.

But yeah, I think your friend is stupid for wearing a veil. However I hope she wears it in peace and happiness for as long as she chooses to do so.

It's the being proud of being a Muslim thing that gets me, Proteus.

Blind faith is not a virtue, it is not something to be proud of, it is a sign of a weak mind.

She sounds like a really fun friend. "JUST DON'T TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK OF ANYTHING I'M DOING!!!"

@16: like so many american christians, she apparently sees her majority religion as the one under attack - she feels compelled to declare her muslim identity and pride.

How do we know that some had "blind faith" or not from a sound bite of a post? Could not the posters statement also indicate that she does question and think for herself, and that wearing her veil is a decision for her alone to make indicate that she is not blindly following? Granted saying one is proud to be Muslim can mean specifically her religious beliefs, but it could also mean more along cultural lines as well. I'm thinking of devotion to one's alma-mater and their athletic program and the ability to pass that devotion onto one's offspring with official Onsies, jersies, and cheerleader garb....Anyway it is impossible to know if someone is questioning or not about a subject, unless you actually ask them.

@14: you DO realize that you have a serious mental illness right? i didn't think so.

Oh goodness. Just like a woman to think she knows what makes her a liberated and independent woman.

@13: But why does it need to be pointed out? I'm sure she's aware of the social and cultural environment of her childhood and adolescence.
@21: You win the thread.

But your Jewish friend has to take his yamuke off when he visits Saudi Arabia by law. He has to take his yamuke off when he visits Pakistan so he isn't attacked by mobs on the street. And he has to take his yamuke off in some neighborhoods in Europe, such as the Malmo neighborhood in Sweden, to avoid being spit on by Muslim immigrants.
And your gay friend would be executed in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan for being "proud" of being gay in the same way your friend exercises her right to show her Muslim pride. Even though Europe is much more gay-friendly that the US, just like your Jewish friend, he would be vulnerable to attacks and harrasement in predominately immigrant neighborhoods.

@22 I think one reason it's okay to point is out that the veil is an outward expression. It is public, and intentional, and as such, is not free from comment. Especially when the wearer posts blogs about. She is intentionally sending a public message -- a public communication -- and that communication is, by definition, not a one-way street.

@16: I dunno, why wouldn't a Muslim be proud of being a Muslim? It seems that we can basically cover all attitudes in three categories. You're proud, ashamed, or indifferent. Like #19 says, there's nothing indicating "blind faith."

Religon is one of the best forms of brain washing you can find.

Let's export some gay pride, jewish pride, and atheist pride to Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, shall we?

@22: Because her post is an outraged demand that everybody else shut up about it.

I grew up in a religious tradition (one which, oddly enough, contained not-dissimilar rules about women's dress and "modesty.") I was a true believer until at a certain age I came in contact with enough friends who weren't from the same church, and some of those friends led me to question the beliefs I had always taken for granted. And you know what? I am thankful every day for those friends who stuck their noses in and posed hard questions to me about why I believed what I believed. If some proud defender of my faith had successfully been able to prevent my friends from saying things that called into question my (largely unexamined) beliefs, I would be a poorer person for it today.

This woman is demanding that nobody point out some rather glaring issues with some of her culture's traditions. I'm saying, too bad. Sometimes friends are friends precisely because they tell you things that you initially don't want to hear.

one wears yarmulke and it sends a message. one hangs a crucifix and it sends a message. an upside cross. a confederate flag. all these symbols can mean different things to the person exhibiting it and those viewing it and interpreting the message.

There's nothing more religious people like than perceived persecution. Martyrdom is the crack/cocaine of faith. The ravenous joy Jen's stupid friend must feel "defending" herself from the onslaught of judgement. It's such a sham that liberals, in their (positive) global tolerance, buy into such self-aggrandizing and melodrama just because it comes from a different culture. The world is a diverse fascinating place, but people can be petty, self-absorbed bores in any language. Dan's right, this is bullshit.

I may decide that I have to find another way to express my faith and live it!

See, that's what she doesn't get. She only sees ways to express faith, but she has no concept of not having any faith at all.

@19 & 25: I can certainly understand why a Muslim would be proud to be a Muslim, they're brought up to believe they're followers of the one true faith, servants of the one true god. If one actually was stupid enough to believe that, I can definitely see why they'd be proud of it. But Muslim means "one who submits to God." It's a cult identifier, not an ethnic catagory. If she's using the term Muslim to describe the culture she's a part of and not the cult, sorry but she's using the term wrong. We have terms like "cultural-Catholic" and "cultural-Muslim" for this exact reason.

@15 How do you dress, act, emote? Are they in the culturally appopriate ways that you are taught for your gender in Westernized society?

We also live in a misogynist society and have been brainwashed to look in a certain way, but you don't get to decide what is better or worse for individuals to chose. To say this woman that her choice to continue to wear a headscarf is wrong is sexist and ethnocentric.

If Muslim can mean anything from one who believes in Allah to one who doesn’t, the word is meaningless and serves no function as a descriptor.

I don’t believe I’m no-true-Scotsmaning this one, if people are going to call themselves something, it’s fair to take them at their word and assume they’re using the word to describe what it actually means until they state otherwise.

Wow, people. All I was saying is here's a woman who's trying to figure out her relationship to all the powers around her on her own terms. And I dig that. And yes, I do love her. Only you, dear defensive reader, would find that condescending.

@36 All we're saying is she's gotta try harder.

You are right we in the US do have the term "culturally-" but she's an Egyptian living in Egypt. My guess would be that she is using it mostly as a religious identity with a possible smaller mixture of community and Arab cultural idenity, but that is only a guess. My main point is while it is easy to assume she is "blindly following" her faith, she also gives a glimps that she thinks for herself, that she will make the decision to wear her veil in the Netherlands or not. And that willingness to consider its removal indicates that she thinks for herself as she does not wish to be told what to do on the subject.

No Muslim is free

any true god wouldn't give a shit if she wore her veil or not. why do people of all religions continue reduce their deity to a petty,pedantic dictator based on what a bunch of MEN decided thousands of years ago.....keep it on or take it off, it is ultimately merely a personal fashion statement....as a sign of faith it is just a mirage.

I agree Outercow. Her choice to call herself a Muslim indicates she is a Muslim. Perhaps it because I know Muslim women who do not wear a veil and Christians who like the message of Jesus' teaching but don't believe he proclaimed himself a messiah and his death was an execution, that I see a broader spectrum than your comment indicated. By which I'm refering to your Muslim= blind faith. Anecdotally I know people who question every little thing. Some find that they can dismiss the "crap" and continue to use the term, and others refrain from using the term at all. Just as some walk away completely because of failure to hold up to scrutiny. And I find people at all points in between, often due to family traditions and wishing to remain part of the community. Where this woman is, I have no idea, it is her journey and only she knows if she questions things.

Sorry if I didn't make that clear earlier.

Take care.

@38 "smaller mixture of community..."

You meant "city" right? Jen Graves and her peeps hate the other "c" word.

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…

All has been made clear, Kim ;). And I do realize that outside of dictionaries, the words Christian and Muslim (and Scientologist for all I know) have a vast spectrum of meaning in practice as to how people choose when and when not to apply the terms to themselves. I guess it just erks me, words are for communicating, they should mean things. If Fred Phelps and you are both Christians (& please correct me if you don’t consider yourself a Christian with a capital C) the word Christian has lost all sensible meaning. Same thing with a hypothetical cultural Muslim who describes themselves as a just a Muslim, and say Anwar al-Awlaki. So I hold people to the dictionary definitions of what their religious labels mean to try and force them to acknowledge the silly things those terms imply. I will cop to that.

And you do have another point, Kim. Just because someone is a Muslim doesn’t necessarily mean blind faith is involved. She could have proof Allah is real and Mohammad was his prophet, however monstrously unlikely I think that to be.

Have a good one!

Jen's friend is a coward.

What is the meaning of the veil? That women need to dress modestly lest they incite the urge of men to rape? That women - but not men of course - need to hide their faces in public?

What "brave" statement is she making? Please tell me what the relationship is between those societies where women are veiled and women's freedom? Iran veils. So does Saudi Arabia. Every "enlightened" muslim woman who emigrates to the west and continues the veil provides additional cover for the perpetrators of religious misogyny to proclaim: "Look - its voluntary!"

We do not veil our women in the west. It is an evil practice fostered by an ancient belief that women, but of course not men, must cover their faces in public. We do not believe in the west that unveiled women are whores. We should never pretend that veiling is compatible with western ideals. The practice SHOULD be stigmatized with the rest of old world thinking - confederate flags, for example.

This veiled muslim is anti-thetical to women. No more than a woman in the 1920s burn

@43

No I intended to say that the choice of the word Muslim could also indicate her membership in the community of believers. Sorry that wasn't very clear.

@ Outercow,

I have found that the English language is an ever growing thing. It is continually adding new words, adding new meanings to existing words, and words that fall out of favor are frequently deleted from the dictionary. Hence I allow for some flexibility. And I haven't used that word in reference to myself for awhile now, I leave it to those that insist that they have all the answers and the right to judge others. I've decided to allow my my actions towards my fellow man to do the talking.

This veiled muslim is anti-thetical to women. No more than a woman in the 1920s burning her voting ID card. It is her right to do it and it is our collective responsibility to shun it.

(got cut off)

Thanks for the clarification, Kim. And I LOVE that definition of a Christian, btw. I think of agnostic-atheist humanists like myself as people who believe they have the right to judge others (and for others to judge them) who (tentatively of course) believe they just have a handful more right answers than the religious do in the grand scheme of things.

Odd how many Slog readers seem unable to hear a woman when she says "Back off, It's my choice."

@49: inorite?

OuterCow, what if we changed 'blind faith' to 'unexamined faith'? An earlier poster stated they were brought up in a conservative sect, and it was due to being challenged by non-believers that ultimately led to a divergence from that sect's belief. There, that person had blind faith that did not hold up to examination. Some have made the assumption that this woman's faith (or choice to wear the hijab) is unexamined. This is a huge leap to make, especially in the context of her own words. This is a thoughtful, independent woman. It's clear that plenty of women around her don't wear the hijab, so it's not as if she had no role models for that behavior. She chooses to wear it. It's her choice.

And it's the head scarf. Not a veil. She made that clear in her post. Back off, Donut Man.

OuterCow, what if we changed 'blind faith' to 'unexamined faith'? An earlier poster stated they were brought up in a conservative sect, and it was due to being challenged by non-believers that ultimately led to a divergence from that sect's belief. There, that person had blind faith that did not hold up to examination. Some have made the assumption that this woman's faith (or choice to wear the hijab) is unexamined. This is a huge leap to make, especially in the context of her own words. This is a thoughtful, independent woman. It's clear that plenty of women around her don't wear the hijab, so it's not as if she had no role models for that behavior. She chooses to wear it. It's her choice.

And it's the head scarf. Not a veil. She made that clear in her post. Back off, Donut Man.

She's not taking it off. But that's cool if she digs it that way.

Her post reminds me of women who say they feel 'empowered' by pole dancing. She is deciding when and how to service the patriarchy. This makes her feel in control. No one whipped her into doing it, so it must mean she is her own woman! I don't buy it.

@ all, wooohooo, i never thought when Jen told me that she will post my post here, that it would provoke all these reactions, sometimes very agressives and i would say ignorant

I guess you are proving my point here, the real reason behind writing this post from the first place, "You know what I think? I think people live to defend their choices, or mainly to prove that what they choose for their life is the right thing to do or to live!"

Well, I'm quite surprised that most of people, overlooked this and jumped to their own conclusions, which represent what they believe in " Islam, being a Muslim, the veil, women alienation, arab world etc etc
which is understandable but it supports my theory : everyone started to state their perspectives, their own believes, opinions, even prejudge me although no one of you (except of Jen) know me personally, nor my family, nor where i was bought up, my education, my life choices, my country (for example, Arab countries are 22, where Muslims are majority , but each country has it's one characteristics, history and ethnic roots, so Egypt is not Saudi Arabia, nor Pakistan, nor Mauritania , defiantly not Iran etc)
All jumped to criticize (going further to call me a cowered etc, would i be brave if I said I took the veil off for example, will this make the one who called me so, think better about me or about him/herself?)
I wont defend wearing the veil , or being a Muslim, or defend Egypt and Arab societies, because this should not be my problem. For those who want to know better about these "topics", if you ever cared to know better about this religion, culture and country, I would say more literature and travel , and less Media bullshit won't hurt!.
These comments were somehow fruitful, yet sometimes not really constructive I am afraid