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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
Wow. Some people.
I generally loathe tats, but hey, coolest tattoo ever.
My theory is we share our love with people, we share our lives, some we share our bodies with, but no-one, no-one owns us. You don't need your girl friend's permission. Maybe there is something else concerning you girl friend, that she is using the tattoo as a line in the sand, only you know her. Anyway childish ultimatums are unexceptable and they should always be so.
So her first instinctive reaction could perhaps be depicted as:
tattoo on arm -> love/sex; but with daughter !! --> stop! pedophile!
Given that people can and do often get tattoos for reasons that have nothing to do with their sexual orientation and/or sexual partners, ATU's girlfriend is clearly wrong. But given that there is some cultural association between tattoos and sex/love relationsihps, I can see where she's coming from.
Maybe she herself had some problem with this kind of thing? Maybe her associations with tattoos and tattooed people are bad? Maybe she was herself molested, and now reacts strongly to anything that suggests molestation?
Again, I'm not saying she's right -- nope, she's wrong, and ATU does have the right to do whatever he wants with his arm. I'm just imagining what kinds of issues his girlfriend has, and trying to understand her. (ATU doesn't say it, but I get the impression that his girlfriend doesn't normally have such strong, immediate reactions? After 3 years together, if she had a pattern of suddenly going irrational and screaming "no! I won't let you!", he would have mentioned it in his letter, wouldn't he?)
Girlfriend is crazy. (1) Leaping onto the pedophile assumption because you love your daughter is crazy. Crazy crazy. (2) Issuing ultimatums like this is not healthy relationship material. Period.
I'd follow that by urging a timeout on the tattoo. I have a tattoo myself, so I'm not anti tattoo. But I am anti ill-considered tattoo. Don't delay because of the crazy girlfriend. Delay to be sure that this is a thoughtful honest way you want to express your love of your daughter... for the rest of your life. Don't get this out of anger with your girlfriend, or to prove you won't back down. If you do, you'll regret it a couple years from now when you'd really rather forget the crazy girlfriend. Dump the girlfriend first. Then take a deep breath and wait a couple months. Then decide if this is really what you want. There is no hurry.
At the very least she needs therapy, but the fact that she admits to all of this bullshit openly with no apparent shame and brings pedophilia into the conversation indicates to me that she's just a morally bankrupt nutjob and DingTMFA is probably just cutting to the inevitable chase.
Everybody else is right too, though. Bitch be crazy.
We're that paranoid now as a culture? So obsessed with Teh Preevertz that a father displaying love for his daughter is automatically a kiddy-diddler?
Jesus Haploid Christ, lady, get a sense of fucking perspective.
Ink that can be covered by sleeves and commemorating a daughter? Admitting there is some jealousy involved? Pedophile comment? No excuse - run.
I think he should skip the tat, pledge to see her regularly, and start a college fund. A father in her life is worth way more than a memorial tattoo.
I've never heard that traditional view of tattoos, ankylosaur.
I've always understood tattooing in the military to be more about military units, battles, kills, etc., an association which remains widespread among older Americans who served. I don't know of anyone who has a tattoo about sex, memoralizing, hobby/interests, personal inspiration are the reason given. None of mine are about sex either, although the fact that Themis' left breast is exposed could be considered sexual. Anyway, thank you for the "learn something new everyday". :)
Silvio Levy
Silvio Levy
I haven't gone out with you, so take my unbiased advice and RUN SCREAMING. There is no therapy for this kind of insecurity and lunacy. An adult who is jealous of a partner's parent-child relationship is irretrievably fucked. There is no rational reason for it. If there was indeed something messed up about your relationship with your daughter, the tattoo is not where she would choose to make her stand. You were in a bad marriage, and you left it to enter into another bad relationship. End this one, and take some time to yourself - try to figure out how you ended up in a 3-year relationship with someone who would pull something like this. I'm gonna guarantee you this ain't the first bit o' crazy she's shown.
Otherwise it is an adult female who is jealous of a little girl and the only cure for that one is DTMFA.
Hence Dan's advice that she should "get a shrink." I do like the suggestion @9 that the LW brainstorm with his daughter about what would be a nice design. He picked her initials because that seemed like the easiest way to represent her, but those initials may change someday, and in any case, she may feel that something else represents her better. If he knows that his daughter is going to name something he can't stomach, then don't ask, but otherwise I think it would be nice to talk about it with her first.
I thought the response to "that's so trailer-trashy" was to claim to be ironic. But I guess that's hard to do when it involves your daughter.
Two issues:
1) dump the controlling, crazy girlfriend. Jealousy over a parent's love for a child is bad enough, but likening that love to pedophilia is really sick and shows a really insane mind Though yes, codariem, I agree that our whole society is paranoid and obsessed with identifying and rooting out the child molesters (defined as anyone who shows any affection to any child for any reason at any time and in any way).
(And yes, I know that molestation exits and children are victimized, which is horrible, and I'm not in favor of pedophilia, in case I'm about to be accused.)
2) Wait before getting the tattoo. It is permanent. As is your love for your daughter. If you want to proclaim that love through body-modification, that's your right, but there's no reason you have to do it before she leaves town with her mom.
Also, I like the idea of holding off on the tattoo and having his child help with an inkable design. That'd be cool!
The tattoo sounds loving, though I'd echo the idea someone had above & maybe get the daughter's first name, as opposed to her initials. The initials might change.
..and as others have said above..pedophilia? W.T.F..? I dunno about run screaming, but your girlfriend has some serious issues. A shrink at least.
Yup, we're everywhere even some European royalty are members. Many of us are friendly, though. I'll share my Elijah Craig 18 years with you.
Cheers!
I'm not saying this woman will do that, but she sounds about as crazy as my step-mom. Even aside from this chick denying your right to do whatever the fuck you want with your own body, that kind of mad behavior and rage, directed at your child, is a huge red flag.
DTMFA, for your kid, and my jaw.
This is a fight that got out of hand with both sides upping the stakes. Also we only have his version of reality. I'd like to hear her side.
She said it made her feel weird. What's so terrible about that? As the fight escalated silly things were said on both sides. A frequent occurrance as fights escalate.
To me his side makes him sound like a 12 year old jerk ("Boy, I'll show her! I'll get this tattoo just to prove I am a real man who can do what he wants without caring how others feel").
This is fight that got out of hand, that's all. But now that Dan and 34 other people (and no doubt more to come) have poisoned their relationship with crazy of Crazy! Batshit! I highly doubt that the relationship will last out the week. Too bad. They have three years and a divorce invested in this relationship.
I doubt if he is going to be happier once she is gone and his daughter is gone and there he sits all alone with his tattoo.
A question that comes to mind is would he rather be right or happy? I know 34 people who vote for right. Me- I always go with happy.
But. I dunno, ATU, you've been with this woman for three years. Has she backpedaled since the ultimatum? Is this the first time she's acted batshit crazy? Has she previously expressed jealousy toward your daughter?
In other words, is her response totally out of character for her, the result of a bad day in which she failed as a human being? We're all assuming that her batshittery response is indicative of the kind of person she is, but only you have the three years of experience to know for sure.
The one thing I find saddest about the letter is that ATU seems gutted that his young daughter is moving away and the batshit gf doesn't sound like she made any attempt to be supportinve of his feelings around that or why he wants to get this tattoo at all.
In my experience, anyone who is jealous of their partner's relationship with a child from a previous relationship is someone who will do their best to drive a wedge between parent and child. And any parent who lets that happen - now, that's one whole hell of a lot "trashier" than any body art could ever be.
Whether you DTMFA or not, get the tattoo. It's your body, and it's your daughter. This bitch can take it or leave it. Most women would admire a man who loves his daughter.
Shrink for sure, though.
If you think you'd rather be happy in a relationship with as massive a red flag as that, then more power to you. But the LW's sadness over ending the relationship won't be permanent, and the prognosis for his long-term happiness is much greater without this psycho if you ask me. So your question doesn't really apply. He can be right AND happy. DTMFA.
That said, LW, just a couple of thoughts: I know a guy who got his daughter's name tattoo'd on his arm (it's a short name, four letters), but he did it in binary, which was awesome and a little more subtle. Brail dots can also look cool.
ATU does not sound like "a 12 year old jerk" to me.
@17 I don't think you're right on that - when I think of stereotypical ideas of tattoos, what comes to mind is "Mom".
Put me down as another vote for dumping her, and then waiting a bit to get the tat. I've got a couple myself, I'm not anti-tat, but "Oh yeah? You can't tell ME what to do" is not a good reason to do anything. Get it because you want it, not because she said you couldn't.
He thinks the fact that he has 'invested' $50 in a tattoo is an issue. A real man would not have even mentioned that but a boy would.
He is offering up the option of decorating his body of a fist with a middle finger unfurled just to show her it's his fucking arm. Like I said a real man wouldn't do that but a boy would.
Ok. He's immature. And she's jealous. I have no idea what the word batshit means but I am not sure that is applies here.
And now that I mentioned Dr. Laura I wonder how she- or Prudie, or Abby, Margo and the rest would replied to this letter rather than Dan. Dan offers the DTMFA option rather than working things out. An easy solution but it leaves you alone.
And, Hell, better alone and with options than with some batshit-crazy, jealous, controlling, asshole-douchebag-motherfucker.
I say this with all sincerity, and hope that you'll take it to heart. You're reaction to this is not normal.
However if I thought my partner was simply making an ill-advised decision I'd happily explain that, not fly off the handle in crazy rage. Clearly either the OP is exaggerating, or she's just really super against tattoos, or we're not getting her side of the story, or she's bothered by something other than the tattoo.
And I do find her tossing around of labels like "trailer trashy" kind of funny since she had no problem dating a married man. .
They're saying that maturity, thoughtfulness, patience, and forgiveness are requirements to being considered a man, and not a child. I agree that some of the lines in the original letter gave me pause--the alternate tattoo of the upturned middle finger, the putting down a deposit with only a couple of days' thought, being less than willing to walk away from said $50 deposit.
@54, I see what you are saying about calming down and seeing if they can talk this out. However, she did say some things that are huge red flags--throwing out pedophilia, admitting she was jealous of the daughter, going straight to breaking up at the first mention of tattoo. That's an awful lot in a 20-minute argument.
There are lots of things I will give on in order to be with someone I love. I learned that I don't always have to be right, that being happy is pretty good too. But this might be one case where in the long run, he wouldn't be happier with her. Might be time to part ways.
She might have other good qualities like a good sense of humor or being a loyal friend. It doesn't matter.
He may have his own issues. (You'd consider a tattoo to spite the GF and prove who's in charge because that and 50 bucks is more important than the maintaining a bond with your daughter? Really, ATU?) It doesn't matter.
This woman is jealous of someone in KINDERGARTEN, and she has already tried to make ATU feel like there is something wrong and dirty about loving his child in a pathetic attempt to compete with a little kid. Compared to that, none of the rest of this matters, and there is no context in which acting on that jealousy in any way is okay. ATU, if you chose to stay with this woman, don't expect this to be the last time she uses something like an accusation of pedophilia to try to make you feel ashamed, guilty, or miserable about loving your child. She will use whatever she can to destroy your relationship with your daughter because she sees it as a threat to her, and if your daughter has the misfortune to be around her, she will try to destroy your daughter's self esteem as well. I hope you dump her, and if you don't I'm glad for your daughter's sake she'll be several states away. I assume that you saw something in this woman, but whatever good qualities she has she is completely unsuited to being a stepparent or involved with anyone with children. DTMFA
the girlfriend is nuts, dump her!
But, even if it was that impulsive, I'd say that given the mindfuck he must have been going through over his daughter moving away (I know I'd be having a real hard time if my daughter was), he can be cut a little slack. Besides, who would have anticipated such a horrid reaction? In this day and age, I'd completely expect any woman under 40 (maybe even 50) to be accepting if not fully down with it. Especially one I'd been dating for three years.
Now, it could be that he's been blind to some warning signs. Someone upthread said she must have displayed some craziness before, and I'm inclined to think so, too. But, not everyone can spot the signs. Some guys seem to think crazy girls are great in bed, and put up with a lot of drama because of it. That's never been my cup of tea.
Still, guys, her admitting to some jealousy might not be a marker of insanity - just painful honesty. When our baby was new and I spent ALL my time physically attached to her, my husband would sometimes admit to being jealous of how much of my time was hers, all hers. Not with any desire to CHANGE the situation, just to keep me in the loop about his feelings. I sometimes have a similar reaction now when I come home exhausted and want a cuddle, and our darling daughter is monopolizing her Daddy's time. It doesn't mean I don't adore my baby (she really is empirically the best child in the world, I'm convinced), it just means that sometimes I have emotions I'm not proud of. So I'm not sure it's 100% fair to jump on her for this bit of (potentially) emotional honesty. MAYBE she was trying to unpack her batshit reaction.
Here's a thought... How about showing your enduring love for your daughter by being a PARENT.
Matt, it's possible I mis-read "I decided a couple of days ago that I might like to get her initials tattooed on my arm" and that the thought process did take longer than just those few days. I could see that. But his daughter moving away was a long, drawn-out process; it wasn't something sudden. My original point was that him not being willing to walk away from a $50 deposit can be a sign of immaturity--either that, or throwing down a deposit too large to swallow is the sign of immaturity. HOWEVER, I mostly agree with you that this fellow should be cut some slack. He didn't even say definitively that he *wouldn't* swallow the deposit. I was just trying to explicate how a male of more than 21 years of age might be called 'not a man'. I don't really have a lot of investment in demonizing this guy. As I say, I agree with you probably 95%. (Crazy women *can* be great in bed; it's never worth it. As I'm sure you know, it's possible to find great-in-bed without the crazy.)
@71, I'm not trying to put a value judgment on spur-of-the-moment tattoos. I'm trying to say that if someone is concerned about a sunk cost, then they ought not put that money down on the spur of the moment. Either you're careful about your money, or you're not.
THAT is batshit insane.
Just sayin'.
Oh, and one other thing on behalf of all my clients in divorces over the years who have heard their refusals to become doormats for psychopaths and control freaks characterized as peurile and contemptible stubborneess: fuck you with a broken condom and an itchy social disease. Twice.
Tattooing your daughter's name on there, as a reminder to her during her teen years that however far away, you're still her dad and you love her? That is THE BEST idea for a tattoo I have ever heard. I am thankful that it is not relevant to my life, but for you - get the fucking tat NOW.
I'd like to know more about how they handled things involving his daughter. If he wanted to take them to the zoo, did his GF come up with some excuse not to go? Or to the movies? Would she go out to dinner with him and his daughter, or would the girl always have to stay with mom those nights? Did she ever play with her when she was around?
@ 78, cool. I've encountered plenty of middle aged and old people who would fail to qualify as "men" or "women" by that standard.
@ tantragel, I just caught your "observation" that he left his daughter for this girl in your comment @ 41, which is completely nowhere to be found in his words. Did you really read this letter?
Die in a fire. Soon. Now would be good. Don't let me hold you up, I'm sure that you've got some matches in the house.
God, people like you make one insane. If the dad had turned around and said something like, "hey, she'll be out of state but she can skype me!" you would write him off as a shallow asshole unworthy of the presence of his child. But his grief at her being so far away is worth even more contempt to the likes of you.
I don't smell smoke from you yet, which is perhaps the saddest thing of all.
In the same vein of trying to explain others' remarks, the writer left his marriage for his current girlfriend. His ex-wife has primary--or at least physical--custody. Some folks would classify that as leaving his daughter for the girlfriend. Not sure I agree with that assessment, but I think that's what tantrangel was driving at.
@79, yes, that gave me pause as well. But even a blind squirrel will occasionally find a nut.
But I dunno - he might be able to eat the $50 with no problem, but when you're eating $50 because of someone else's nutty and irrational reaction, it suddenly seems like a bigger waste than if it was just because you changed your mind.
/pedant
I think the LW and his GF are perfect for each other!
The LW "left his already disintegrating marriage" and a 2-year-old daughter for this woman? Based solely on his letter (and there always could be something exculpatory that's not written), he's a CPOS who thinks his daughter wasn't worth sticking around for, or fighting for custody for before he got with the new woman?
A tattoo is a pretty sad excuse for the love AND RESPONSIBILITY he should be taking for his 5-year-old.
He should make every possible effort (with or without his GF) to get a job in whatever state his ex is moving to. No tattoo will ever substitute for being there to help his little girl grow up, even if it's only on weekends.
Admittedly that's difficult in this economy, and following his daughter might mean abandoning his GF and maybe getting a lower-paying job. But is his daughter worth his time and effort, or just worth some ink injected in his arm?
DFTT
@83, wow, that's a lot of vitriol for a one-line comment. We could consider the possibility that ATU might use the money for the tattoo toward things his daughter would appreciate more.
The letter says he fought in court to keep her in-state and lost. It sounds like he's running low on options and making better decisions than any you've suggested.
Personally, I think getting a tattoo to prove to random people - or yourself - that you love your kid is the real fucked up thing in this situation.
But really, the urging of people to die in a fire is a little over the top. I know it's a meme, but come on, do we really have to go there?
I also think the tattoo idea is stupid (get it, don't get it, who gives a fuck, certainly not your kid) and other things you do will be more meaningful to your daughter, like writing letters EVERY week, skyping, sending her little things, and travelling to see her frequently. Kids need real involvement; gestures like getting a tattoo might mean something to you but it has nothing to do with a child's needs. At all.