how are the other kids going to react when their half-sibling goes off to live with Daddy Moneybags and live in relative luxury? that'll make for some interesting thanksgiving dinners.

Holy shit. Did you guys hear?!? Amanda Knox was just shot!

By a Pit Bull!

If she has an IUD, she may not even be able to carry the baby to term.

Way to lay on the guilt, Dan. It isn't a baby yet, it's just a small clump of cells. That guy can get his baby when he gets a woman who wants to be a mother, when he marries LW and adopts her 3 kids, or from an adoption agency. He has no stake in this. You have no idea what you're doing, asking her to consider carrying a fetus in her body for 9 mo, losing time from work, and then risking her life and going through the torture of delivery. If she doesn't want a baby, she shouldn't have one.

There's another option: have the baby, keep it, but make sure that the birth father pays a reasonable amount of child support.

Wow this guy is such a fucker for wanting his child not to be aborted and for offering to raise it on his own. What an ass hole.

If he wants kids that bad, dude needs to nut up and marry her.

This one seemed pretty clear cut to me - abort.

It's letters like this that make me really happy I'm not an advice columnist. That said, you did well, Dan.

What a hard decision to make.

If the man would pay for a lawyer of my own choosing, and work with me on establishing parental rights, and if he can pay for all the medical bills etc, and maybe other bills while I was carrying the child as well, I'd go ahead and let him be a father. If he's going to try and convince her to pay for everything and not help out at all until after the baby is born, then he's not going to be a worthy father.

However, the fact that they both chose to have unprotected sex only a month in (what about STDs?) shows that neither are terribly responsible people.

"I can't possibly keep the baby due to where I am in my life right now"

How is that not the end of the issue?

If you don't want to carry this baby to term and hand it over to this guy, don't. You've already taken his feelings into consideration, but they ultimately weren't enough to change your mind about this unwanted pregnancy. And you probably knew that before you told him, right? Deep down, you probably already knew that you didn't want to have this baby, and you just told him about it hoping that he would feel the same. We'll he didn't, and that's why I would question this particular piece of Dan's advice. Why put yourself through a potentially painful negotiation like this when you already know what you have to do for yourself? Also, it's not uncommon that a guy guilts a women out of an abortion claiming that he's ready to be a father, then takes off after the birth. This guy didn't mention desperately wanting to have kids a few months ago when you started dating him, yet suddenly time is running out for him and he's ready to be a father?

Have the abortion because of what @11 said. Then, after a week or so, tell the guy that you miscarried due to the IUD. Think he'll know any better? Nah, me neither.

End of story.

Right now he says he's going to do all these things, but are you sure he's still going to be in the same frame of mind 6 or 7 months from now when the baby is born? What will you do if 4 months from now, you and he have a fight over [insert reason here] and he dumps you? What will you do if you have the baby and he says he'll only take it if you'll marry him and move in with him? What will you do if you give him the baby, he has it for a few weeks, and decides this baby crap isn't for him and gives it back?

There's a lot to consider here. Who's going to pay the monthly doctor's visits? Who will pay the hospital bill? How do you know for sure he'll pay it? Is he willing to give you the money now, to set aside for the expenses? Who gets to decide c-section, induced and/or vaginal? What do you do if he throws a shit-fit about your diet while you're pregnant, or some recreational activity you indulge in?

Agreeing to have this man's baby gives him an enormous amount of power in the relationship. For the next FOREVER, this man will be in your life as the father of your child and for the next 6 or 7 months, until the baby is born, you won't be able to piss off or disagree with this man because if you don't, you might get stuck with the baby.

Given that neither you nor he seem to consider this a long-term relationship, and children ARE a long-term relationship, I vote abortion.

(Also, logic problem ... if you had the IUD installed last October, then missed your period a few weeks later, you should have already delivered the baby. Unless you mean you had the IUD installed last October, had sex a few weeks ago, and have missed your period NOW.)

I don't understand why the advice-seeker feels that it would be too great a moral hurdle to permit someone else to raise her baby, but the prospect of denying the baby any chance at having a life at all does not seem to faze her. These both seem like serious moral dilemmas to me.

The odds that she'd be able to carry this baby to term with an IUD in place are slim. Not that it's not a good philosophical moral dilemma, but it's probably not a practical one.

If the writer sounded at all unsure about what she wants, I might agree with you, Dan. But she doesn't, so I don't.This woman doesn't owe him anything, let alone the hardships of pregnancy, labor, and birth or the life-long complications of co-parenting with an ex. Especially since she's been crystal clear that she doesn't have any desire to continue the pregnancy. Advising her to seriously consider going for it anyway sets this woman and a future kid up for disaster.

This guy is a grown ass man who got involved with a woman who had an IUD. If he wants a kid so bad, he has the option of getting involved with one of the many, MANY women out there who desperately want to have a baby but don't have a willing partner.

I am just jaded enough to believe this is a perfectly worded bait and troll question.

Artful, in fact.

SAD, you said, "I can't carry my own child to term and then hand it off to the father. I would obviously form an attachment to the baby and I am not strong enough to hand a baby over." For me, this decides it. You know exactly how you are going to feel, how conflicted, and how attached. Being a mother 3 times over has taught you these things about yourself. Plus you have only known the guy two months, so you don't know him well enough yet to know if he will be a good dad for sure. Someone mentioned the complicated relationship to the child's siblings, that seems worth considering, too. And right now, yes, this potential baby is a clump of cells, and no one is attached yet, and the phantom IUD may make this pregnancy more complicated than you now know. And your first instinct was that you needed to terminate the pregnancy. I don't like Dan's mixed message, you're not a good surrogacy candidate, you're going to feel about this child as you know you already do about your other three kids: trust your instincts. First thought, best thought.

@14 - the IUD was Fall 2010, the relevant sex was last month (a month after meeting the guy), and she just missed her period and is newly pregnant. I think this is fiction, made up by a guy who thinks it's unfair that women have all the rights over the pregnancy. He tried to come up with a letter that would make Dan go "ooh, the poor wittle baby, and it has a loving (wealthy) Daddy to take care of it, I must keep it alive, awww." But Dan didn't say that, because the fetus is not inside the dad's body.

@15 - it's generally more emotionally difficult for a woman to abandon her baby than to terminate a pregnancy. Don't know how much that's biological/hormonal/cultural, but it's real.
http://www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/f_impac…

@21 - actually, there is a higher likelyhood of getting pregnant during the first weeks after getting an IUD. You have to get it checked by a gyno to make sure it has remained properly implanted.

There are too many "what ifs" here. What if he changes his mind? What if he does not turn out to be an ideal father? What if he is actually in tons of debt and the house, nice car, and comfortable life suddenly vanish one day? What is the IUD causes a terrible and painful miscarriage? Having this child is a terrible idea.

To correct myself - there is a 50% miscarriage rate with the IUD left in place, so "slim" was an inappropriate modifier.

And also, I agree with the "fake!"-ers. That said, it is an interesting moral question. I agree that it is (fake) her right to choose. And I agree that (fake) her should feel a little angsty about it. We live in a world where, should she decide to have the baby against his wishes, he would still be on the hook for 18 years of child support. If he has to be responsible for the baby once it's born, shouldn't he get some say in whether or not it's born in the first place?

I'm as pro-choice and feminist as they come, and I can recognize that this shouldn't be as cut-and-dried as some are making it seem.

Two months and he wants to have a child with you?!

Absolutely not. Terminate now. If nothing else, you're still exceedingly fertile. And if he's itching to be a dad, guess what? If he sticks around and becomes a real, lasting part of your life, you've already got 3 kids for him to play dad to!

What's that? It's not the same because they're not your kids? Oh, it looks like he doesn't want kids after all, he wants living proof of his own virility. The end.

I feel like everyone is overlooking the fact that if he earns a place in her life, she has 3 kids already and and is accepting stepdad applications. As a person who feels very close with my stepdad--and knowing plenty of people who are adopted who would say "fuck you" to the whole "it's not the same" argument--if he really wants to be a DAD and not a sperm donor, that chance is still there after this pregnancy is terminated.

@25 is right: If you haven't yet, see your gynecologist IMMEDIATELY. The IUD makes this pregnancy high-risk.
That said: You and the guy took the chance of creating a foetus, not a baby, when you had sex.
Creating a baby is a completely different step, one that is solely up to you.
A foetus at this early stage has no thoughts, no consciousness. You don't owe it anything at this point.
There is absolutely NO reason to feel guilty about an abortion at this early stage, and if he is trying to make you feel guilty about that, that's a bad sign.

Something about this letter is setting off my bullshit detector too. Not sure, but think it might be fake.

That said, I generally agree with Dan's advice. It is her decision. It is ethical to at least talk to the guy and see what he thinks, and take that into consideration. But ultimately it is still her choice and her decision, even if that means disagreeing with the guy. Dan isn't saying she must do this for the guy, only that she give some thought to it. He is very clear that it is still her choice to make. Nobody said the choice was easy.

@ 25, I don't think you are "as feminist as they come" if you don't see that since the father has zero responsibility for gestating or birthing the child, he has and should have zero say in whether or not that part happens.

The man, like the woman, made an equal choice that led to conception. In the event of a born child, they will both have equal (in theory) responsibilities that stem from that. Everything in between conception and born child is, as dictated by nature, inherently unequal. C'est la vie.

It's not a baby yet, it's just a small problem. Solve it before it turns into a big one, then if this happens again remember not to tell the guy involved, it's none of his business.

I feel the need to point out (in case someone hasn't already done so) that in many states (most states? all states?) any legal contract in which the mother attempts to opt out of parental rights before birth is NOT LEGALLY ENFORCEABLE. The guy could (if he so chose) agree to let her opt out before the birth, wait until she gives birth, take the child, and sue for child support. She might be able to get at least some manner of custody in such a case, but she can't opt out of her parental rights without his say-so any more than a man can opt out of his parental rights without the woman's say-so.

This kind of not-legally-enforceable shit pops up all the time in many "open adoptions" that occur in states where "open adoptions" aren't legally enforceable; the woman signs an agreement with the couple that she can have contact, they wait until the kid is born, she gives up the kid for adoption, the adoptive parents ignore the agreement, the woman sues for breach of contract, and the court informs her the whole bloody thing isn't legally enforceable.

No matter what you end up doing now, consider actually discussing the possibility of pregnancy BEFORE you bed the next man.

After walking away for a bit, I have to revise my thoughts. Giving the child to the father only works if both are responsible, reliable people, which I'm afraid evidence shows they are not. I could do it... but I wouldn't have had unprotected sex with someone after only knowing them for a month.

It is much more likely that this guy really just wants a baby-mama than that he really wants to be a single dad, which is going to leave the single mom with a 4th mouth. Get an abortion, and next time use a condom as backup.

@6: :Yes, until he can carry the child to term from conception to birth, he is an asshole.

I like Dan's advice here. He does a good job of threading the needle, even if it doesn't give LW much clarity. IF the guy hires her a lawyer and puts financial and other commitments in writing, I see no reason why she shouldn't consider his offer. If she does think about it and her gut feeling is still "there's no way, then she should abort.

> Everything in between conception and born child is, as dictated by nature, inherently unequal. C'est la vie.

Now that's a slippery slope argument for restricting rights if I've ever heard one. Why should I hire a young married woman if she's likely to skip out for months in the near future? It may not be fair to prefer biologically reliable men over women but nature directs it. C'est la vie. (I'm being sarcastic BTW, I don't believe in preferential hiring).

She gets the final say, I'll stand behind that with my votes and political money. Of course with special rights comes added responsibility. What she wants doesn't matter. What he wants certainly doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is what's right for the three kids she already has. She needs to quit allowing near-strangers to jam potential babies into her crotch and stick to her studies.

@31 - if you can't be feminist and recognize that autonomy over one's own body sometimes runs into and complicates the notion that biology shouldn't be destiny, then we're screwed.

Spot on advice from Dan. A difficult situation. Ultimately, it is her decision, but only after full and fair consideration of his desires.

And a hearty fuck you, you filthy bitches of the black and white "it's her uterus so she can do what she likes without even considering what he wants" variety with your dumbed down harsh "men are horrible creatures and this one doesn't deserve a say because he's going to lie or do something rotten in the future or has a hidden evil motivation because he is, after all, a lying cheating man" viewpoints. Decent people, like this LW, realize that his viewpoint is worth consideration, her "I can't do this" must be fully self-examined to make sure it is a legitimate emotional reaction and not a convenient excuse, and that there is no easy answer either way. I wish her the best of luck for being a woman with a conscience in a very difficult situation, whatever she decideds, and hope she ignores most of the ill-thought out kneejerk manbashing going on here in the comments.

@39 If she has a sitter for the kids there's no good reason for her to stop dating, though I'd advise her to combine condoms and another effective birth control method in the future.

Ok, let me guess.

This guy is around 40.

So, when she says she doesn't want his baby...she's really saying she doesn't want him. That this was some kind of diversion, sympathy fuck...and I don't want a permanent memorial to it.

But what he is saying, is oh, yeah, it was real...I'm still the stud...and this is my card to prove it.

@40, I'm sorry, bodily autonomy runs into and complicates the notion that biology isn't destiny? What does that even mean?

@39, Even ignoring whatever's going on their in your first paragraph, I'd love to know how women getting to make their own medical decisions for their own bodies without the sexual partners having a say is a "special right." Because...I think everyone gets to enjoy that. Also, millions of women raise kids, have sex (getting to decide whether or not that ever results in a child), and hold down jobs and school schedules all the time. And...yeah, what she wants not only matters, it's kind of the only thing that does.

@41, Everyone gets to do what they want with their own body without consideration for what other people want. How is that noteworthy?

Ok I am the asker of this question and after reading all these replies, I am even more confused now. First I'd like to say, that this is NOT fiction! I am a real mother of 3 in this situation. Now, for the people saying that I'm a bad person for not wanting to keep this child, please remember that I am young, I am currently in school obtaining my GED which means I'm working a minimum wage job at the moment, and can barely afford to put food on the table now. I wasn't careless about this. To clear things up, I had the IUD inserted in October of 2010, so that would be a year ago. The IUD is no longer in place as I thought and expected it to be. My doctor said it must have come out at some point without me knowing hence the fact that I am now pregnant. So how is his time running out? Well, I'm not entirely sure to be honest. He just says that he's 32 years old and he's not getting any younger. Poor excuse if you ask me. Now I know he could FINANCIALLY support this child, but that doesn't mean that he could emotionally support this child. I know in my heart, as a mother already who truly loves her children with all of my heart, that I could NOT carry a baby to term and give it away or sign over my parental rights. But to abort this baby terrifies me. I have never even had to deal with this before. I'm not even sure I'm able to do that part. I'm so trapped right now and I wasn't being stupid or going with the heat of the moment, I had the IUD in place so that I could AVOID this. I am actually meeting with an ob/gyn to get my tubes tied. Which obviously won't be happening anytime soon now. I don't feel any further ahead now than I did before. I just feel sick. Maybe I will just suck it up and make life with this baby work. I mean, maybe this happened for a reason. Maybe this child will change my life forever. Any more feedback is greatly appreciated, but please remember that I was not careless and I am actually heartbroken over this whole situation. Thank you all.

AND for 39, excuse me??? You only know that I have 3 children and you are ASSUMING that these were random men! Well, that is NOT the case! My children are ALL with the same person that I was actually with for 10 years AND engaged to! So maybe you should stop assuming things without knowing the details!

@45, Lena1985, I really feel for you - it sounds like a very tough place you are in, and you don't know what to do. One clear message I picked up, from what you wrote: You have a strong sense that giving the child to the father is not the right decision. I would trust that instinct for sure; it sounds like you don't know him enough to reliably predict whether he will follow through; I can tell you as a father, and you know as a mother of three, that ideas about parenthood are not the same as the nitty gritty of doing it. I would not count on someone you don't know well to follow through.

With regard to going forward with the pregnancy or having an abortion, it should be totally your decision but I recommend that talk with someone in person:
- Go in to Planned Parenthood and talk with a counselor, find a therapist elsewhere
- If you are in King County call the Crisis Line, open 27/7 (not just for big crises; I used to work there and we got a lot of calls from someone who just needed to talk to someone else; they also suggest referrals, for counseling, health care, etc.) 206.461.3222
- Talk with someone you trust who can help you work out what you want to do.

It can be a huge help to get an caring, outside perspective, as well as just to be heard. Before you make a decision either way, I'd talk with someone about your fears, concerns, and hopes for yourself.

I want to add that I admire you for pursuing your education while raising three kids. It is really important for parents, especially moms, to take care of themselves and pursue their dreams outside of being parents. Your kids will see you and be inspired.

Lena - You say you're terrified, feel trapped, don't think he'll emotionally support the child. Do you think his financial support of the child will continue if he doesn't support it emotionally? Do you think his time with you will continue when there is a constant reminder between you that he doesn't emotionally support?

If you have the abortion now, you have ALL options available to you. You can pursue a relationship with him at your own pace, without the gestation clock ticking down. You can have a child with him in future, at a point in time when both of you are ready for it and committed to whatever arrangements you feel are a good idea. If he chooses not to stay with you due to the abortion, then you haven't lost anything worth keeping.

If you don't have the abortion now, your options are very limited. You've already said he won't support the child emotionally and I fear that is the death knell for the relationship. You will be in a very vulnerable position.

The power and age imbalances that you mention make me worry for you. How much of what is going on here is really to your best interest and how much is to make him happy? Because making him happy and guilt-free is not "your best interest". That's *his* best interest. And that's nice and all, but you need to be focusing on yourself. What would you do if he got hit by a bus tomorrow (or for a kinder alternative, met a different young woman without any kids and fell madly in love with her)? Is this a child you would want to have if he was entirely out of the picture? You should not rely on him. This is not a decision to make with him in mind.

@ 49, awesome comment.

Lena1985,
How many weeks are you?
If the father bails, are you able to support this child financially?
Will having another child hinder your educational efforts?
Do you have a support system in place--not just financial, but emotional, and practical: someone to babysit and help out?

How attached are you already to the potential child you're carrying?

If you have a 4th child at age 25, without a high school diploma, how good a mother can you be to the 3 children you already have?

Does the thought of having this baby fill you with
excitement and joy, or dread, depression, and despair?

These are all questions you need to ask and answer for yourself. None of us here can decide this for you. Whatever you decide, understand that you will never be completely happy with your decision--there will always be an element of "what if . . ." But ultimately, it's your decision, and a 32-year-old man that you have only known 2 months has no say in it.

You don't owe him a child (and at 32, his time is far from running out). He's fertile and young--he will have many more chances. So the issue of giving him a child as a sort of "gift" should be off the table. You will be the one living with, raising, and supporting this child.

Ultimately, you need to consider your life and the life of your 3 existing children.

No decision you come to will be perfect, but make sure you have support in place for yourself no matter which one you make.

I'm sorry you're going through this.

You missed an obvious explanation for this guy's behavior, Dan. All I could think while reading her letter was - This guy's trying to trap her.

One of the first signs of an abuser is that they'll try to rush into commitment. She's only known this guy a month or two, and already he wants to have a baby with her? No. What's going to happen is, if she has this baby he's NOT going to take it home. He's going to make her take care of it. And he's going to use his financial support in order to control her. If she has that baby, she's stuck with that man.

DON'T DO IT.

Thanks for writing in, Lena1985!

Do you mind talking about why you weren't using condoms? I'm not blaming you, but just wondering if maybe this guy is good at manipulating people -- many men prefer sex without condoms, but before making that decision you should both be tested, and know each other well enough to have confidence in their promises of monogamy. If he's good at manipulating you, then I hope you can be strong or turn to other friends/family for support as you make this decision.

@Lena: as a guy in his late 40's I can speak to the "running out of time" thing. I don't have kids, and, in principle, I'd like to. Now let's suppose tomorrow I meet a young lady who'd like to have kids with me, and let's allow about a year to get to know her and another year for conception and pregnancy. Then the baby would be born when I'm 50, I'd turn 65 when the kid's 15, and 67 when the kid's 17. Now, realistically, how good a father for a 17-year old would a 67-year old be?

So, if a 45 year old guy thought his "time was running out", I'd think he had a point. But a 32-year old guy saying that is pure melodrama.

Your other questions are hard and all I can do is wish you well in whatever you decide.

Lena1985, thanks for posting here, and I'm so sorry about the situation you're in. You've had some unexpected really bad luck, but now you need to figure out how to make the best of the situation for yourself and your children. I have to agree with @19. Having this baby and giving it away is not an option for you -- so you need to choose whether you want to have a fourth child. And you need to put yourself and your family first -- this is a major life decision, and it's time for you to be selfish for you and your kids -- not time for you to compromise with your boyfriend on a sex position or where to have dinner.
I think Dan often looks at situations too detachedly and has a hard time understanding how strong human attachments can be; I don't think he grasps what it would mean to you to hand over your baby, or to not be the custodial parent (this is something I know I personally could never do. Some women are able to do this, but they are built differently than I am; I could never).
Your 32-year-old partner sounds either selfish or inflexibly idealistic. You don't owe him anything; don't let him pressure you -- or even influence you -- on making such a huge decision. Tell him you need time to yourself to think about this, and talk to people who care about you and would put your welfare and your children's first (and not put their ideals ahead of your and your children's well being). I think it's time to put yourself in survivor mode -- do what you need to do to protect yourself and your family. And if you decide that you want a fourth child -- do it for yourself, not for this man that should mean nothing to you compared to your children.

lol @55

What a fantastical, bitter world you live in.

She says she can't keep the baby. He offers to raise the child and is excited to do so. He wants the child, even if she doesn't.

So instead of making him a stand up guy trying to make hte best of a difficult situation, that makes him a trapping manipulative abuser? Come on lady. Stop projecting.

It is true that if they elect to coparent, they are stuck with each other - as coparents. That could be good or bad; hopefully the could make it work for the sake of the child but most likely it's not the abusefest you are predicting.

Lena, Dan's advice was good. But if you are still confused, see a counselor, see a lawyer, talk to planned parenthood and close friends or family who you think make hte best life decisions. Best wishes.

Lena @45,

Added info helps a bit. "He just says that he's 32 years old and he's not getting any younger," is utter nonsense. While it becomes more difficult for women to carry a pregnancy after age 35, men are commonly fertile well into old age. Clint Eastwood fathered a child at age 67. Tony Randall fathered a child at age 78. At age 32, your guy isn't even close to running out of time. This bullshit raises red flags for me. It doesn't sound like he has thought out what he really wants, and doesn't sound like a terribly good choice to give a child up to.

If you feel you absolutely positively could NOT give a future baby up to him, then have the abortion. You don't know him well enough to co-parent with him. You are in no position to add a 4th child to your current living situation. If you can barely manage with 3, how the heck do you think you'll manage with 4?

I understand you are heartbroken over this, and justifiably so. I feel for you. I know this is really hard. Having an abortion is not something to do on a whim for most people. But sometimes it is the best way to move forward. Your situation is one of those times.

I meant to add; while you take time to think about this, maintain no contact with your man -- say, for about a week, or whatever length of time you think would give you the distance you need to think about yourself and your family. If you have family you are close with -- parents, a sister, a close friend -- maybe you could stay with them for a few days to help you get perspective while you think this over ...

Look, I don't think I could ever get an abortion. I just couldn't bring myself to do it, given my situation (I like kids and don't have any, make good money, have a good support system, etc.). And I tend to think a guy should have a certain amount of input. HOWEVER, this is a 32-year-old dude who had unprotected sex after one month of dating. I'm not impressed. (And that goes for the LW as well. You don't want a baby, but you're ok with an STD? Forreal?)

But here's the thing, if you've got hangups about abortion and you're a guy, you wrap your damn dick up or you don't fuck or you don't fuck women who believe in abortion. And at 32 you're old enough to be responsible for this shit and ask the relevant questions.

And anyone who says "time is running out" at 32 is pretty much dumber than a box of rocks. Christ, I'm a 35-year-old childless, never-married woman - guess I'll just sit here and wait for my ovaries to turn to dust and blow away right about.... now.

Most of the time I would believe that the guy should have some sort of input. But this guy KNEW the LW's situation, did not discuss the possible consequences of a pregnancy with her to find out her views, fucked her without a condom and then says "hey, this is what I want." In this case, his wishes don't matter - I'm sorry. As others have pointed out, it's the welfare of the three kids already in this situation that matters, and the welfare of the LW, who is in a precarious spot. The would-be daddy just learned a hard lesson - that's all.

LW, I especially think you need to cut off contact with this guy for the time being. You have a hard decision to make, and he's creating static you don't need. You could very well get stuck raising this kid alone (I know a lot of people whose financially comfortable fathers bailed on them). Only you know how you feel on this. There is NOTHING wrong with you aborting the fetus, but your anxiety about it is something you should examine in private, on your own, with no one trying to guilt you into making a huge lifetime commitment because of their personal desires.

I agree with a couple of other who are seeing red flags with this guy now that we know he's only 32 and trying to lay that trip on you. I also think his "just give me the kid" plan evidences that he doesn't understand...well, a lot of things. He's said his bit, you've listened, but it sounds like there are lots of weird dynamics at play that might make you want to take a step back from him while you finish making your (YOUR) decision.

Dan is an awesome sex columnist, but he will never get pregnant or give birth and is extraordinarily unlikely to accidentally get someone else pregnant. He never has been and never will be on either side of that equation. He IS, though, someone who has a child that he loves very much because a woman carried and gave up an unwanted child. I think his advice here has to be taken with a grain of salt. You're a parent who's done this before and is trying to do the best for her family, and you know better than anyone else what to do here. Trust your instincts.

"But I can't do it. As great of a solution as it sounds, I cannot do it."

Uh, what's to consider?

As Dan and I and everyone else has said, ultimately it is her choice.

Listen, this guy is probably a little naive. And temporally focused. I get it. When I was 32, I also felt like my life plan of being a dad was behind schedule. I know better now, as a 47 year old dad of a 2 year old. No need to turn him into a monster or magnify this little misaprehension into a character flaw or worse, the sign of lurking monstrosity.

Let's try for a little balance. Maybe we should talk about the elephant in the room. LW is pretty new to making responsible decisions. Dropped out of school. 3 kids at 25. From a guy she wasn't married to and now seems to be not worth mentioning. Seriously struggling financially.

On the other hand, from what little we know about him, the prospective dad seems to be doing pretty well in life. Stable. Well off at 32. Reasonable head on his shoulders and willing to take on an unexpected and significant burden.

We don't know enough to make an informed decision; but from what we do know, he is the guy who is probably better at decisionmaking and better able to care for the child as a parent, even though she has some experience. Unless, of course, you buy into that old sexist garbage that women are better parents.

The world won't end for either of these two people if she chooses abortion. But let's stop filling her head with nonsense and stop trying to squeeze this guy into the bad man role to make her feel better about her situation.

@64: Good advice.

@66, gross. How fiscally successful someone is has fuck-all to do with their ability to make good emotional or family decisions. Get a grip on yourself.

Mama, I really feel for you. I am also a single mother of 3 (All different dads and proud, thanks judgemental people) and I can totally imagine how I would feel in your situation. I think you need to look deep inside, and listen to yourself. You know what you really want. Don't let this guy, or anyone else, tell you what to do. Make the choice that is right for you. Don't talk to him until you have 100% made your choice.

I also have to add, anyone, who would say that he is clearly a better parent, based on the little bit we know about him, is out of their mind. A mother of 3 is a PROFESSIONAL at raising children.

Thank you for the important work you are doing raising our future, and don't let anyone shame you for having to do it alone. That is not your fault.

No man can be held to a financial commitment for a child that isn't proven to be his. It can only be proven to be his if he is willing to submit to a DNA test, and he can't be forced to do that unless the woman argues a judge into so forcing the man. That prenatal "commitment" wouldn't be worth anything.

She didn't have "unprotected" sex; she had an IUD in place.

And...this wonderful, generous man doesn't want a child with this woman; he simply says he wants a child, period. Why should she go through 9 months for that?

@66, ok, I don't make responsible decisons?? Are you SERIOUS? Maybe I've made bad decisions in my lifetime, but I have made many many responsible decisions since having my first child. You don't know me, at all! All you know about me is my situation right now. Did you know that the reason I have 3 kids is because I was in an abusive relationship for 10 years and was FORCED to have sex? Didn't think so. How many women do you know that have dropped out of high school to become a parent and is in an abusive relationship that manages to leave that relationship even when I was terrified of my children's well being more than my own? How many women do you know that had 3 kids by 23 years old and is still managing to continue their education AND work?? Those are ALL responsible decisions. So don't you judge me for a minute. Don't judge me for a second! I never said the father of this baby is a bad person. EVER! I never even said that he would be a bad father. I said I don't know what it would be like. He's a good guy. He's sweet, caring, understanding, funny, successful, and fun to be around. I never once said he'd be a bad father.

Also, to answer a few people who have asked why we didn't use a condom. I have a pretty severe allergy to latex. I can't even eat fruit that contains latex. I explained this to him and he was UNDERSTANDING as I mentioned before. So after a lot of talk about being monogamous and having sex, we decided that a physical would be needed. I knew I was clean of any STD's since I had a physical when I got my IUD in and hadn't had any sexual partners since but I still agreed to get tested for both of us. He got tested as well. With clean bill of health in hands and knowing that we had agreed to be in a monogamous relationship with each other, we thought it would be ok to move forward. And we did. IUD was supposed to be in place, however; it was not as I stated before. Yes, we are a couple right now. Yes, he's understanding of what I'm going through and what decisions lie ahead of me. He hasn't tried to control me in any way. He has expressed his feelings about the situation but doesn't expect me to do what he tells me to do. I feel like somehow without meaning to, I have painted a picture of him that is not him. He is a great guy. So far anyway. We had talked about what we were looking for and we both are looking for long term relationship and possible marriage at some point. Maybe not with each other, but that is our goal in dating. I appreciate all the positive advice and help that you have all given me. I think planned parenthood is a great idea. I also think sitting down with him and fully discussing the pros and cons of having this baby is important too. I know my 3 children are most important and they come first. I will always put them first. But this child is just as much my child as they are. That's the heartbreaking part. I am about to write my GED in 2 weeks from now and I am planning on attending hairdressing school. So this baby definitely puts a stop to my plans for my life. But this child didn't ask to be conceived. This is a horrible situation and the people who say "abort!" or "give him the child," it's not that cut and dry. This is a human being! I'm choosing this human beings fate! Life! Existence! So nobody can judge me until they are in this spot.

@44 Even ignoring whatever's going on their [sic] in your first paragraph,

If I was unclear, sorry. If you just don't get it, no worries. Possibly you have a hard time reading other people's comments from up high on that soap box?

How is it a special right? Well you defined it as a special, nature-granted, right didn't you? You even put in the flippant "c'est la vie" to make the point. I agree with you. Until the day we can make a zygote grow external to a woman, she gets the final (and only if she chooses not to discuss it) say in if she wants to go through with it or terminate it.

That right (or however you want to describe it) is power. With any power comes responsibility (thank you Spiderman).

No different than nature giving the average man more physical strength than the average woman. With that power comes responsibility (mostly not to ever use it, even casually to intimidate someone, unless someone weaker needs help).

The power/responsibility combination shouldn't be a radical idea. I don't see women as passive victims of their bodies but people who have a special power...and responsibility.

> And...yeah, what she wants not only matters, it's kind of the only thing that does.

That's right, fuck those kids. What do their needs have to do with mama getting her party on?

Sorry, I just don't agree with you. Kids come first. If you are barely keeping your life together, then maybe the distraction of a relationship is the last thing that you should be worried about?

Lena, please don't let these people make you feel guilty. This is NOT your fault.

I also have a child who is the result of partner rape. I know how you feel.

No, having spent the last 3 months vomiting in nearly every bathroom, trash can, and roadside in my city, I don't see the sole responsibility for gestation as being a "special, nature-granted right." I see it as what it is; an immutable responsibility that I don't get the luxury of sharing or passing off to someone else. It's having my entire body, not just my uterus, taken over. And thereby, like every other choice about MY body, it is similarly only mine. The legal right to medical autonomy is not special. Every man in the world enjoys the same.

Her children don't own her body, so yeah, while her decision (like most decisions a parent makes) will impact them, it's still about what she wants. Again, it's her body. And this "kids come before the woman" bullshit? That's exactly why that equal, not special, recognition of medical autonomy had to be codified for women while it never had to be for men. So A+ again.

@66, I can't even fall asleep because I'm thinking about your comment and it's making my blood boil. I have never made responsible decisons huh? How about the fact that I love my kids? What about he fact that the first thing I do in the morning when I wake up is kiss and hug them good morning? I see children walking to school alone and unattended at the ages of 6,7, and 8. I walk MY kids to school. Why? Because that's a responsible decision. It takes me an hour longer than it would to get to MY school if I just let them go alone, but I wouldn't do that because IM A RESPONSIBLE parent! My kids have a routine. They come home, do their homework, eat dinner, play, have a bath, and at 8:30 every night, I tuck them into bed and read them a story. Why are they on a routine? Because that's what a responsible parent does. I quit smoking so my children wouldn't see it and think it's ok. Why you ask? Because that's what a.... (yep you got it) responsible parent does! When I have money in the bank, what do I do with it? Do I go on a shopping spree for myself?? No, I do not!! I spend it on them! I can walk around naked as long as they have what they need. That's being responsible. I recently got my license so that I could take my kids places and have fun with them. Responsible. I pay my rent, hydro, phone, and grocery bills every month. I'm never late. Responsible! My kids ALWAYS have food to eat! Even if I starve, they have food! Responsible! My children misbehave and they have time outs and I am consistent. Why? Responsibilities!!! There are more to being responsible than having money! This guy (and he's great as I said) had a wonderful upbringing with his parents well off and sending him to private colleges for music. He had whatever he wanted or needed. I, however, was taken away and put into foster care for a chunk of my childhood. We didn't eat on a daily basis, my dad was rarely around and when he was, he was drunk. My mom was never home. My 8 year old sister raised me from 3-7 years old. We didn't have clean clothes, hot water, a clean house, and never mind all the fancy stuff the other kids had. And I'm not whining about it. Whatever, it's done and I learned so much from it and I don't think I'd be the person I am today without it. But I didn't have things handed to me like some people and in turn, I made some stupid decisions as a teen. Sure I did! But the second I had my first child, I started making nothing but responsible decisions! I'm sure it's easy to tel by now that I'm not some uneducated mother of 3 on welfare. I am an intelligent working mother of 3 and making my way further up the ladder. It just takes time. But I am in no way, irresponsible!

@45: Hi Lena. For what it's worth, when I read your letter I didn't pick up any ambiguity about what you wanted. You are ready to move past the (very difficult) stage of raising young children. You took great pains to avoid getting pregnant. You are starting the next phase of your life. You already have 3 kids who need your attention (and earnings).

The only thing that seemed to throw you off was this guy's fantasy of having kids.

You seem to know what you want, but perhaps you aren't sure it's OK to want it. Well, what you want is OK. If you go through with the abortion, your life will move on accordingly.

P.S. At 32, he's got all the time in the world, although that's not really your problem.

To Lena1085 @ 72, All these different opinions must be rattling your brain. That sucks. What a complicated situation for you to find yourself in.

Listen, the reason people are suggesting that your boyfriend might be controlling, is the things he's told you about how he feels about the baby seem kinda manipulative. You shouldn't be guilted into having his child. OTOH, I know that abortion is a massive decision, there's no do-over.

Have you talked with your doctor? There's possibilities of complications with the pregnancy because of your IUD. Planned Parenthood is a good start; talk to friends whose advice you normally seek. You've likely already talked to a therapist or counselor, but if you haven't, do that too. Someone who has experience w/ similar situations but isn't personally involved in yours might be just who can help you hash this out.

You already have three kids, & no, the potential-kid you've conceived didn't ask to be created. Your situation sounds like it's super complicated already. From the way you describe things, I worry that a 4th child would tip the scales for you.

Also, you may have talked about goals with your S.O., but you don't know him that well yet. Please only have this baby if you feel like you yourself could be a good parent to them. From what you've written so far, what you have with this guy is fun but kinda not firmed up, yet.

You sound like a tough cookie. Good for you for getting educated. Congrats on the GED. Go find a good therapist or counselor, & a Dr. appointment as soon as you can.

@76, why did I? Well because I Think Dan Savage is an amazing man and could help me more than asking someone who has no experience with these questions. I value his advice and opinions and that's why I asked him. You think he's the ONLY person I have asked?? No! He is NOT! I had no way of knowing that he would post this! I didn't even know this site existed before today! I wrote to him in private hoping for some help and he sent me an email with this link! And although I am thankful to everyone for their help and advice, I was NOT in ANY WAY looking for comments. If you'd like to look at my profile, you will see that I am brand new to this. Have never answered a question before, do not have anything on my profile besides my username! So if you don't want to help and give advice, then why are you here? I surely didn't ask you to help me. I asked Dan!

@31, @40, :
Not sure if this is what you're shooting for, but you're coming across as a man-hating cunt. Just an FYI.

I really wonder about the people who think if he was responsible he should offer to marry her. How is it responsible to marry after 2 months of dating?
Also, about him using the baby to keep her in a relationship: I didn't read that at all in SAD's letter, nor in Lena's comments.
About him being a stepdad to her three existing kids: maybe he doesn't even know them. A lot of single parents don't want their kids to meet their dates before it seems to go somewhere, like after several months.

Lena, @ 77, @80: every SLLOTD comment section has plenty of dumb comments on it written by people who don't know the details of the situation and decide to type something out. I can't recall a single comment section with only intelligent, insightful comments -- that's just how the SLLOTD comment section works. No matter how "responsible," sane, ethical, etc, the letter writer sounds, there will always be people who like to criticize, and they often don't know what they're talking about. Just skim those comments briefly and then dismiss them -- spend your time thinking about the comments that will be helpful to you, and listen to the commenters that seem to understand your situation.

@75 "Everything in between conception and born child is, as dictated by nature, inherently unequal."

Law, right, obligation, immutable-responsibility. I'm not married to any one term. Being pedantic is boring.

"The legal right to medical autonomy is not special.", no but having the responsibility on whether a particular zygote turns into a child or not is a special right (natural or otherwise), at least in my opinion.

"And this 'kids come before the woman' bullshit?"

I said "she" because the woman is a woman, not a man. What I meant is that:

"Kids needs come before a parent's wants"

What I mean by that is only maybe it's more important for this young lady to put off having relationships for now and work on that GED and take care of her three kids. Relationships are time-sinks and they complicate life.

She's already said she doesn't want the baby and I don't blame her. I just don't know why she's going on about it. Get the abortion, move along.

"That's exactly why that equal, not special, recognition of medical autonomy had to be codified for women while it never had to be for men."

No, I doubt that my statement of responsibility towards one's children is "exactly why" women had to fight for that right. That had more to do with changing religious and cultural values.

BTW There was a time when the average man did not have rights to his own body either; he could be drafted and put into harms way, or forced to work in dangerous conditions. Not saying it as a value comparison, just to refute your incorrect "never had to be for men" statement.

Forget my long-winded posts (and most others).

Out of everybody I think @78 has got it perfect and was nicer about it than I was (and not sidetracked into a go-nowhere conversation).

Get the abortion, simplify your life, hit those goals you've already set out.

Amanda Knox ftw.

Lena1985, that's a terrible situation. You have my sincerest feelings of sympathy.

I'm going to give you my opinion here, and maybe this will help you. What I wish from the bottom of my heart is that it may help you feel a little more secure, help you escape from the panic that this situation clearly has brought to you. My god, my head starts spinning when I read your letter and think of what you must be feeling right now. I hope my opinion can alleviate these feelings a little bit.

Here's what I would do.

I'd find out what the father is really willing to do. How much is he going to commit? How much of the work with the baby and of the responsibility is he going to take? In other words, is he REALLY going to make it so that this baby is not an extra charge on your back, or is he just all words and no talk? Because, given your situation, if this baby is going to exist then the father really has to work for it, heart and soul, and money -- lots of money.

What I'm afraid of is that he's just sayin' it -- he wants to be a parent, but maybe he has no idea what that entails, how much work that is, how much commitment that involves. You have the experience, but he doesn't. How realistic is he about the whole thing? Is fatherhood for him some romantic fantasy? Does he really know what he's asking for? Because if chances are he's just going to run away screaming once things get tough, then -- then abortion is the best solution in your situation.

If however you think he's sincere and capable and really willing, if you think he can actually do what he says he wants to do, i.e. be a real full-time parent (and that's a big if -- please consider that carefully!), then I think you could go ahead and let him be the father. Note that you won't be "giving away" the baby: as Dan suggested, if you get a lawyer (that father-to-be should pay for), he can craft an arrangement that still makes you very much a part of your baby's life, you just won't have to care for the baby every single day. Daddy wants to be a daddy? Given your situation, this means he'll have to do most (if not all) of the work, pay all the bills, and not complain.

This is not the same as "giving this child away" and breaking the bond you're sure you'll establish with him during pregnancy.

Now, if you have any doubts... if you don't think he can really pull it off (how well do you know him, his personality, his sense of commitment, his capacity to provide, his financial stability?)... Then I think you'll be better off aborting.

That's what I would do if I were you. Check if he actuallly can do what he says he wants to do -- be a father-and-mother for that baby who you still will be involved with but with him doing all the work. If I end up not thinking he can and will... then I'd abort.

@71 I want to live on the planet (or in the state) that you're from. Here in California all a woman needs is a baby and an appendage to point at a man and he's paying child support, whether he's seen her before or not, until he can foot the (thousands of dollars) bill for a DNA test, then he doesn't get any of his money back when he's vindicated.

Marry the guy. If he's willing to take care of the baby tjen he should take as good care of the mother. And she should not have sex again until she is married to somebody with means like those of the father.

Pregnancy is always a risk with sex except for post menopausal women or infertile people. So men and women should not have sex unless ready for the consequences. Sex is not a right; it's a privilege for those prepared for the possible consequences.

No right person in the near future? Tough luck. He and She should masturbate or go without.

First off, two months is not long enough to know if he'd be a good father. Does he have a criminal record? Does he have any addictions? I would have serious reservations about turning over my dog to someone I hardly know, let alone my child. For all you know, he could be a level three sex offender.

Dear Lena,

It is, as has been said before but can't be said often enough, completely and utterly your choice.

However, this line from one of your comments gave me pause:
"This is a human being! I'm choosing this human beings fate! Life! Existence!"

If this is how you feel about the fetus right now--not a clump of cells, but a person, a human being--then I think you may not be a terribly good candidate for having an abortion.

I also wonder if reading these comments isn't doing more harm than good. You don't need a bunch of strangers (including me) nattering at you. You're clearly smart enough to think through both sides of the argument yourself. Maybe you should just step away from this site? I think all we're achieving is getting your blood pressure up...

Best of luck whatever you decide!

Lena, I a sorry I upset you.

Please don't give my comment #66 another thought. I don't know you, I am sorry for the struggles you have had, and it seems like you have had a lot to deal with and have done a good job in doing so. Carry on.

I was upset at the vicious attacks and undermining of the guy involved by some posters here based on nothing but speculation and some inexplicable but clear bias against men in general. I was pointing out that there were little facts to actually form an opinion about him (or you), so it didn't make sense to do so. The dangers of making assumptions and all that. Because if these other commenters do want to help you, bashing him without a reasonable basis really isn't doing it.

You didn't mischaracterize him, so don't feel bad about that either. Some people are projecting their own issues onto him. Now that you have explained that he is a decent guy, and offered some insight into your own strength of character and the struggles you have had to deal with, maybe you will get more useful perspectives on your serious and difficult problem.

Again, my apologies for upsetting you, and best of luck working through this very difficult and emotional dilemma.

Alan

Single handedly raising even one kid without a decent job would be a nightmare for me, so three, with the possibility of a fourth, sounds like something from a parallel universe to me.

Lena, I admire your strength and self-awareness in this tough situation. You're doing a great job focusing on getting your GED, and it's amazing that you're juggling it with three children.

What I hear about this guy is what HE wants and what HE needs: "Now, he's trying to convince me to carry the baby to term and let him have the child. He is well off. He owns his own three-bedroom home, he has a brand new car, he has a great job. He would be more than capable of taking care of a child financially. He dreams of being a father someday and sees his time running out. He also says he should have just as much say as I do considering he is the father of the child."

Has he said anything about supporting you and your existing children during your pregnancy? How about after? If not, run like hell. I'm with the rest who are concerned that he's focusing on his desire to propagate (without having to commit to someone). I've seen a fair number of guys hit 30 who are unmarried and suddenly freak out at the idea of not leaving genetic children behind (I blame social programming). It may not be malicious, but the "produce a child!" shouts out the "have a meaningful relationship with another human being".

You owe him nothing beyond the respect you've shown by letting him know. He should respect you and your children and the situation you're in first and foremost. He should be asking and offering whatever he can do to help your life over next 9 months (and ideally, a little after to account for recovery) AT THE VERY LEAST. If he's not, he is either too immature or too selfish to trust with this commitment. He may see it as a way to avoid commitment, but for you, it's another huge commitment - of time, of your body, of your love. It doesn't look like he gets that, frankly. And it's clear that you love your three children dearly, and they must think the world of you for being SuperMom every day for them. What would this say to them if you carried this child "for this guy"?

He'll be fine. He has plenty of options. You deserve to keep all of your options and possibility for you and your family.

@45: You got pregnant by someone with whom you never even discussed the possibility of pregnancy or either of your feelings on the topic of abortion. I'm sorry, but you so absolutely WERE careless, and that's why you get to make this tough choice right now.

@72: When you put your life story up on the internet for all to see, you open yourself up to many, MANY interpretations, and yes, you ARE going to be judged. If you do not wish judgement, keep your sob stories to yourself.

Hi Lena, I hope things go well with your GED and plans for hairdressing school.

When I chose to have an abortion five years ago there were ultimately three options and I considered the ramifications of each:

1) have it and keep it. For me this was not an option, though my situation was not quite as complex as yours I still would not have had the time or money to raise a kid.

2) have it and give it away. I thought long and hard about this and came to the conclusion that if I had it I would never be able to give it away, because I would get far far too attached and then I wouldn't be there to care for it.

3) have it aborted. This wound up being the least-worst option for me, as it was the only one I was emotionally and financially capable of following through.

While I can't speak for his feelings, you seem to have a lot of the same thoughts and feelings I did when trying to decide, and if you truly couldn't hand a baby over to someone else completely then that option isn't really there on the list.

I wish you luck and happier times. As several others here have pointed out, you and this guy are clearly fertile together; if he's serious about wanting a kid with you then he can become a part of your life and you two could have a kid together a few years down the road, after you're done with school and better set-up to have a fourth child.

@81, did you just call someone a "man-hating cunt"? Really? That seems misogynist and uncalled for.

@81, 31 and 40 are two entirely different people, and I'd love to know if it's the basic fact that only women can/have to gestate is man-hating and the basic fact that both men and women have equal medical autonomy is cunty, or is it the other way around? Either way, I'm very sorry that you think reality has an anti-male bias.

@84, and I'd say that the ability to procreate without having your entire body taken over for 40 weeks and instead purely through a pleasurable sex act is a pretty special right. I'm really not interested in being told how "special" I have it and how my right to medical autonomy is also "special" when it's just fucking equal. I also think I've specified medical autonomy several times, so I'm not interested in your terrible draft analogy.

So now children have needs, but a woman's bodily autonomy is just a "want." How much more dismissive of women considering abortion are you going to get in this thread?

Hi Lena (if you're still reading...)
Here's what I would do if I were you:

Decide first and foremost if abortion is an option. Go to the clinic and have the process explained and outlined so you can make an informed decision. Do not take Baby Daddy with you, or tell him that you are going to check it out. (you're just checking it out at this point, not signing up to actually have one until you are informed.) Get advice from professionals at Planned Parenthood.

All this speculation and "what-iffing" about what may or may not happen in the future is clouding your brain right now. It's too much to process. Take it one decision at a time, starting with the abortion decision because that's the one you can control right now. Everything else is out of your control right now. Baby Daddy is a human being with free will. He could totally change his mind about babies after this one is born. Hopefully he is a good guy like you say he is (and I'm believing you because you say so) and he will realize that being a "good guy" means putting YOU and your existing 3 kids first. Supporting you in your decision about the current pregnancy. Not making this about him. That's actually what a Good Guy would do, so let's hope that he proves it soon.

Since you said that you're not 100% cool with having the baby and handing over for him to raise, I would say that that option is off the table. Done. And you can communicate that to him so there's no confusion regarding that scenario. You don't have to justify that feeling at all, you're not ok with it so it's simply not going to happen.

I think if you do choose to have the baby you should be totally prepared to raise it on your own until you see what happens with Baby Daddy. Who knows? He may step up and turn out to be an awesome dad or he may just decide the totality of his involvement will be to have his wages garnished for the next 18 years of child support. We won't know how that's going to play out until it happns so don't stress about it. You have enough going on.

I think you're strong. You've been through a lot. Whatever you decide will be the right choice. Someone earlier said you have to get in survival mode right now and I think that's true. It sounds like you have done it before and it looks like you need to do it again.

This letter is why if I ever get pregnant the "father" will NEVER KNOW.

I want it to be my choice and my choice alone. If I ever have to make this decision I want to be 100% sure that I wasn't persuaded by some random dude I've known for 2 months or some random advice columnist. If I ever have regrets, I want those regrets to be my fault. I don't even want to have an inkling that someone else might have caused me that regret.

I love you Dan...but you got this one wrong.