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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
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I was very dismissive of this movement in the beginning, but your coverage here has brought me around. I hope there are other minds getting changed out there.
info here: http://mollycrabapple.tumblr.com/post/10…
The anger and frustration is genuine and deserved. It's a movement that rose organically, with no top-down leadership, and any effort to impose a list of specific demands would splinter supporters and be misused by the press.
So just because some of the people on the street aren't skilled wordsmiths, doesn't mean their grievances aren't real. We all know what they're really protesting about, and give or take, this is loosely it. We're just in the business of putting things into words.
I don't consider these joke-ass protests "fighting"
They're fighting to keep their tents in Westlake Center. This bullshit is going nowhere. I'll be over here making sure to vote, you go have fun pretending you're making a difference with your chants and being obnoxious to passers-by.
That's how good messaging works.
Protesting first and hoping to figure out a coherent message later really doesn't work. Media outlets lose interest quickly if there's no clear storyline for them to report.
Unfortunately, this is just another symptom of how bad progressives are at messaging and issue framing compared to conservatives.
It's Westlake Mall, where we've had protests for many many decades, either get used to it or move back to Cali.
"I am not a member of an organized political party. I am a Democrat." -- Will Rogers
They're already getting more concerned about not getting to camp out in Westlake than they are with getting their message out, which they're already doing a terrible job of. I've seen plenty of protests at Westlake but I don't think anybody's tried the dumb idea of "occupying" it before for obvious reasons. Keep on trying to be a dick, though.
Funny, when I went by the protest I saw one crustie yelling about free healthcare while smoking a ciggie.
Half the people in that photo are juggalos, crusties and anarchists. You know, 0.0001 % of the population.
The technology now lets us link arms...without cubicle walls to corral us.
OS and OWS have shown that people can put on their own live news show...with news made by them.
They can report live in sentences and photos what takes half hours and hours to do.
Occupants are 21st century social entreprenuers shouting...we know how to do this.
Business occurs outdoors in plazas, or between living rooms.
But our political, housing and transportation networks are slow, tardy and can't fulfill needs at the speed of electronics as our social networks can.
This is not just criticism, but counter-argument...on display, like the shop windows on the plaza.
These are revolutionary mannequins selling the garb of a new social milieu.
The Stranger's list -- ooh, a list-off! -- is more like an off-the-cuff attempt to, uh, gee, formulate a political platform. You know, like political parties have. Which has nothing to do with protesting in the street, and everything to do with the mundane political process that the bad guys are so good at and liberals tend to suck at really bad. Which is why the bad guys win; the good guys -- like these protesters among others -- want everything handed to them on a plate, because they're making noise. But noise is unimportant.
Wall Street is not a "thing". Wall Street is incapable of performing an action and therefore is incapable of being held to any form of accountability. There were people who were on both sides of the financial equation that acted irresponsibly and illegally, but can we get away from the lazy finger pointing to some mythical entity called "Wall Street" and how it wronged us? You sound just as stupid as when politician talk about "Main Street".
As for jobs, don't you think that's what people are trying to create? The large private corporations that you're whining about are ultimately owned by their shareholders which are demanding returns on their investments. These people might be greedy and entitled, but that is certainly within their rights to be. You might want to understand the basics on macro economics (you're insanely ignorant even for those who fall on more of the liberal end of the ME spectrum) before you complain about low interest rates and job displacement.
It wold have been nice to actually see an eloquent post on the root problems driving some of these issues instead of spouting off about nonsense that makes me feel like I'm listening to someone going to Seattle Central.
So you really want this corporate nightmare to stop? You'd better be able to put up REAL resistance because the corporate state will stop at NOTHING to keep their hands on the controls of state. Honestly, do you think some sort of Dr. King movement is going to bring the very basis of corporate power down or change it? Seriously? Allowing African Americans (at least on paper) equality didn't cut into their corporate profits and the corporations kept their control of state. THIS movement is about a fundamental shift in how the country works that is equitable.
So if the protesters are serious then great but they better start putting up or shut up. As it is the Seattle protest was nothing more than a poorly run Boy Scout camp...TAKE SOME NOTES FROM THE NEW YORK BUNCH!! They've got the idea on how this is has to work.
Anyone who thinks building more infrastructure "creates jobs and wealth" needs to study some basic economics. How much wealth is created in knocking down an existing school and replacing it with a fancier school? How much wealth is created in the economy by building a bridge in the middle of nowhere?
The ignorance of the general public is embarassing. It's no wonder that very little gets solved, very few people are even capable of putting together two logical thoughts.
Seriously, If I go down to Westlake and don't see copies of those books being read and devoured I'm going to kick your asses myself before the cops get to you!!
Fairness and justice are feel-good slogans. Legislatively, they throw-away words. They are not policy.
This is policy:
http://video.nytimes.com/video/2011/10/0…
The substantive criticism of the Occupy Wall Street isn't that the protests don't have meaning or purpose, or that the protesters don't have legitimate grievances.
The substantive criticism of the protest is that it doesn't have even one concrete objective. Just one specific change in the world, no matter how small, that the protests aim to achieve.
You don't get what you want if you don't ask for it, and you have to ask for specifics, otherwise no-one will know how to give you what you want. Nobody knows how to give you abstract concepts like "Fairness" or "Justice"; you might as well be demanding "Civilization" or "Philosophy".
The people who organized ad-hoc public transit in Montgomery wanted to be able to sit wherever they liked on the city bus. The people who attacked the police outside the Stonewall Inn wanted to be able to relax and enjoy a drink without the cops barging in on them. The people who occupied Tahrir Square wanted Mubarak ousted.
They all got what they wanted.
My suggestion would be to ask for an end to the practice of charging bank depositors for access their money, but congress already half-assed it, and it's even been co-opted by bank advertising, so that one's probably a few years too late.
"Tax 70% on income over one million" is a concrete demand I'd happily support. It's class war, sure, but then we're probably overdue for the protest chant, "This Is Class War! Whose Side Are You On?"
1) Impose a financial transaction tax (a micro-tax on the sale of any stock, bond, etc). It dampens the speculative market. Basically, causes hedge funds to leak cash.
2) Eliminate the "carried interest" loophole. (Allows hedge funds to pay lower tax rates than people).
3) Raise the capital gains tax a bit. Leave it discounted, but not that discounted.
4) Increase financial regulation on banks.
@26, I agree with all your points. How to achieve them? In congress. Not Westlake Mall.
The question I have for The Stranger writers who wrote this is pretty simple: did the protesters in Westlake make it more likely or less likely that Obama's jobs bill makes it through congress? Or did they have no effect whatsoever?
Because if you can't do even THAT, you can't do diddly.
of course when the left sort of does it, it is wrong, wrong, evil, bad and wrong. 'cause yay capitalism.
Fairness: Tax 70% of income over $1 million.
Justice: Finalize regulations called for by Dodd-Frank. Defend the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. Underwrite and fast-track principal reductions for under-water mortgages.
Jobs: Build infrastructure, fund highway, transit, and port modernizations. Invest in education, fully funding retraining for unemployed workers in relevant, modern skills.
I'd wager most are just morons who spent beyond their means and when the piper came calling got pissed off. Most probably have no idea what they're even protesting, I mean comments like "Wall Street caused the financial crisis" just proves that most don't know shit about finances.
@34 Um, you do realize that increasing the cost of Chinese products would increase the prices everyone pays for ... well ... everything now, right? The only reason most products are made in China (even Microsoft's discs) are because we are too strict on manufacturing here in the US.
http://www.occupiedlondon.org/blog/
occupied london puts out a free magazine twice a year in an effort to combat the free daily newspapers in london that are like the stranger but worse. tides of flame, another anarchist newspaper, is doing a better job and putting it out twice a month.
www.tidesofflame.wordpress.com
We keep electing the same folks time and time again (and that includes not voting), and somehow think things will be different. Basic common sense tells you that elected officials are not going to change if they keep getting re-elected. Start throwing out incumbents on both sides of the aisle, and you'll see some movement.
If you've got a personal formula for deciding whether a corporation is good or evil, more power to you, but please don't assume everyone else is putting them all in the same baskets, or even dividing them up that way to begin with.
@35 - there's also that "labor cost" thing, in addition to how the US is all "strict on manufacturing".
And until we stop running massive deficits -- financed by China -- we've got no leverage to impose tariffs. We're gonna' have to earn our way out of this hole, and at its very, very best the "Occupy" movement is naive, self-indulgent, parochial and hypocritical.
If you want to know the root of the housing crisis, don't look to the Teabaggers. Look at the deliberate manipulation of the GSE's by both Clintons and Obama (despite efforts by, ironically, McCain to regulate and contain Fannie and Freddie.)
Hillary (second only to Obama in campaign donations from the Freddie & Mannie) actively blocked regulation and reform, while Bill pursued the famous policy of “The National Homeownership Strategy: Partners in the American Dream” which included this gem in 1994:
"For many potential homebuyers, the lack of cash available to accumulate the required downpayment and closing costs is the major impediment to purchasing a home. Other households do not have sufficient available income to to make the monthly payments on mortgages financed at market interest rates for standard loan terms. Financing strategies, fueled by the creativity and resources of the private and public sectors, should address both of these financial barriers to homeownership."
And look what happened:
http://theaffordablemortgagedepression.c…
a derp and a sad meow? wtf is this really? just really pathetic kk.
from KittenKoder: "The only reason most products are made in China (even Microsoft's discs) are because we are too strict on manufacturing here in the US."
You're not going to make any headway with Zok. You've just encountered someone who hates The Bankers every bit as much as you do, if not more, but in a way that's completely out of phase with your own Banker-hatred.
Yes, forget about reinvigorating community or a sense of secular morality. They need to help Obama pass his the bone he threw to the base that he knew would have a snowball's chance in hell of making it anywhere.
And you say you have no part in this country's failure? Reasonable Liberals strike again!
The "left," if that's what us centrist, pro-justice, reality-acknowledging, pro-science, supporters of rational-and-pragmatic-government types are called now, have a much more important message to deliver that's relevant to a majority of our population, if we can just reach them. If it takes talking points, then fuck it, let's make sure we have talking points, and stick to them!
However.
These are not things that 99% of the population care about deeply, or even at all.
Then shut the fuck up.
That's so very 'celebrate diversity' of you!
@49, the problem is reality. Obama's "bone" is the best you can hope for. Hearing all these discussions about what tax rate ought to be applied to this or what's "corporate" and what isn't remind me of nothing so much as the discussions I had with my friends when I was fourteen about what kind of car we wanted. But you're not getting the Lamborghini Countach.
The point being, there's a difference between asking for, say, a particular taxation scheme resembling one that was actually in effect as recently as 50 years ago, and asking for, on the other hand, "social justice" or "a rethinking of the capitalist system."
"A Lamborghini Countach" is extremely unlikely, yes, but "A White Lotus Esprit that turns into a Submarine" is impossible.
Then your beef should be as much with the regulatory (bureaucratic), policy (legislative), executive (agenda) and judicial (justice) systems who have, and continue to, fail(ed) in holding-up their end of the bargain.
Might I point-out that these are all government entities? So by what mechanism are you looking for relief?
Government?
Government is going to solve it? (Yeah, and Obama = Change, right? Sure thing, Guantanamo!)
In fact, the runaway winner in creating the market for the crappy mortgages was... drum roll... Government! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12221294…
Stop centralizing power in central government and central banks and you wouldn't have these problems. (Instead of parroting slur you're heard about Libertarians, maybe it would be time to see if it they now make sense...)
While I am all for dissolution at this point, I don't think the current thread of minarchism is anywhere near coherent (take for instance Ron Paul's belief that the state should intervene in medical decisions like abortions!) and probably more far-fetched than Fnarf getting the Lambo of his dreams.
Bah, will people stop using the westlake park as their protest area? I've got nothing against protests or the occupy seattle people, but westlake has become ground zero for crazy in Seattle. If it's not filled with it's normal "you're all going to hell" bible thumbers and the "israeli apartheid" groups, its filled with the cause of the month club, or crack heads, or scammers trying to sell phoney bus tickets, or worse of all, hipster charity canvassers trying to con you into giving them money. Damn it people if you really care about your cause, then you owe it to get the cause out of westlake or else you're just being lazy. Everyone in Seattle has been condtioned to ignore anyone who tries to talk to them in this area as they're most likely a) crazy or b) asking for money. If you protest here you're just blending into the crowd. Try Bellevue Sqaure if you really want to shake things up for a change, or even pike place market or downtown redmond. Protest in westlake and 90% of Seattle will write you off as crazy and ignore you.
OK, Boom. All yours. Done.
But what do you want next?
doesn't address the fact that
HALF of American households
pay ZERO Federal Income Taxes
then you are a Full of Shit Douchenozzle.....
-Wants
-Implementation
-Markers for Success
The first column is already completed. Now they need to take each want and describe what laws, tax changes, or programs they want to implement that want. Next they need to say what they expect to happen when that want is implemented, such as increased purchasing power by the working class.
Get on it guys!
Food Not Bombs, which feeds a large amount of homeless at least once a week, is involved. So yes, many are doing whatever they can to help out the homeless while you sit at home and do nothing with yourself but judge sanctimoniously.
You are lazy and have no right to act better, you're objectively doing less for society than these protestors.
That sounds good to me.
Oh, and roasted Washington Mutual and Chase pigs on a stick, each with rotten apples in their snouts.
I'm heading to the local Occupy tomorrow.
I think if jeff bezos has the brains to outcompete apple with the new "flame" smartbook, he can put his pointy head into the problem of mortgage foreclosure reform. If paul allen can get the city to build the SLUT for his south lake union empire, he can find a way to build a bullet train from here to Portland. If the politicians can't light a fire under the ass of corporate captains of industry to maintain a education system that provides them code monkeys and electricians, then perhaps a tirefire in the middle of the treelighting ceremony at westlake will persuade them to find a way. I have faith in them, I really do.
Case in point: MoveOn.org is supporting the protests. A major financial contributor to MoveOn.org is George Soros. Soros co-owns part of the Federal Reserve known as the DTC, or "Cede & Co."
We're just scratching the surface here, folks...Michael Moore's messaging is completely compatible with central banker UN Agenda 21 planning. And on and on and on...