No-brainer. It's awfully hard to imagine anyone who has been in entry level sex work taking particular offense to Warren's comments since she's at least fighting for their economic interests instead of the interests of their high power johns and the kind of people who make money off of nude pictures in magazines. Should we denigrate entry level sex work?! Absolutely not. But entry level sex work is not some populist medium for uplifting the middle class, most of whom are too fat, too homely, too timid, or to awkward to trade their bodies to Cosmo for a college education. Scott Brown's comments were just dickish!
I thought his comment was douchey, but completely fair given that she went after him in the first place for his legal posing work. Does it show the GOP double standard when it comes to anything involving sex (IOKIYAR)? Sure. But that's precisely why the good guys *have to be consistent and non-hypocritical* on these things, or else we're just playing to fear and bigotry for votes, too.
EW seems to have started it and is the one responsible for dropping the conversation into the "oh, woe is me, morality!" cesspool. Plus (and I say this without having a clue what she looks like and think it true even if she's smokin' hot) his comment was kinda pretty funny.
Sure, letâs not denigrate sex workers. But the point that women have other options is an important one. Itâs all very nice to say that sex work is empowering, but getting a law degree is arguably even more empowering, even if itâs less cute and trendy.
By all means, let's talk about how AWFUL Warren is because she's not sufficiently pro-sex-work. That's going to help improve the basic situation of economic justice in this society.
Dan, you can be such a hypocrite. You advised a guy who's boyfriend wanted to do porn that he should decide what he wants to do in life. If "waiter" is the answer, do porn.
The reporter asked a snarky question and received a snarky reply. Stop clutching your pearls.
It seems to me that Elizabeth's comment isn't as insulting as Brown's. I understand the objection to, "I kept my clothes on," but, "Thank God," is a personal attack that says, "No one would ever want to see that person naked," while Elizabeth's suggests that she was able to find other forms of financing before having to turn to posing naked.
Of course, I'm extremely biased. I adore Ms. Warren.
I don't find either comment particularly offensive. But, Warren's has the benefit of being true. She did keep her clothes on. But look at her: she looks ten years younger! I have no desire to see more of the wrinkly but healthy, slender, bright-eyed 62 year old form she shows us today, who can doubt that at 20, back in 1969 she had the kind of body peeps'd pay to see naked? Scott is insulting the world by expecting us to believe that the she she is now is the she she was then, that she's looked like a 62 year old who looks ten years younger for the past forty years. Point: Warren.
Women's physical appearance seems to be an important meme to republicans. Remember when the right was so proud of a comparison of physical attractiveness between right wing versus left wing women, as if sexy equaled political substance and intelligence? They were posting things like this, http://www.daily-dirt.com/wp-content/upl…
It really shows how shallow, and sexist the conservatives are when it comes to women.
Some other, more important things EW said at that debate:
"Forbes magazine named Scott Brown Wall Streetâs favorite senator. I was thinking, 'Thatâs probably not an award that Iâm going to get.'"
"The people on Wall Street broke this country, and they did it one lousy mortgage at a time. It happened more than three years ago, and there has been no real accountability, and there has been no real effort to fix it. Thatâs why I want to run for the United States Senate."
Ms. Warren preferred to pursue other means to fund her college education: that is her right. I would not have wanted to strip for money either, when I was in school.
I don't have a problem with either comment. Considering Brown is running on the Republican ("values voters") ticket, I can't blame Warren for taking the jab even though I don't have a problem with Brown's modeling. And because Warren opened that can of worms, I see no issue with Brown's retort.
Warren is still a very attractive woman. Millions of men in their 60's WISH their wives looked that good. Brown's soul is ugly - he's a Conservative after all.
She needs to keep taking more jabs like that, and she'll drag the GOP ugly out into the light.
In addition to writing more than 100 scholarly articles and six academic books, Warren has written several best-selling books, including All Your Worth: The Ultimate Lifetime Money Plan (ISBN 978-0-7432-6988-9), coauthored with her daughter, Amelia Tyagi.
When it comes down to it, what Warren said is only a insult to Brown if you agree with the "getting paid to look sexy is bad" sentiment. Otherwise, what she said was a statement of fact. I don't like the snide implication, but whatever.
What Brown said was a personal "you're ugly" jab. There's also the very annoying implication that only young, pretty people should ever be seen nude or be secure and comfortable with their bodies, which is ridiculous.
I think the poll should include "Both" and "Neither" options.
By the time the next generation of political candidates run for office, scandalous photos will be ubiquitous. Remember when even the speculation of former drug use was political death? Our last three Presidents have admitted to using marijuana, and our last two have admitted to having done harder drugs. The same will be true of nudie pics in the future.
Meh! Both OK, by my definition of freedom of speech. (I admit there is a certain charm to Mr Brown's that got a chuckle out of me, though. But let this not be misconstrued as preference.)
@16 and @30 get it exactly right. She could never have posed nude and gone on to political office. The fact that she was asked about it at a public debate reeks of male privilege and back-room media snickering ("hey, let's ask her about that! then everyone gets to imagine her naked!")
She probably should have just said calmly that she borrowed money to pay for college and spent her answer talking about the problems with current student loan programs. But a debate is a place where you're supposed to get feisty, and she's not one to avoid a fight.
By media rules, they both win -- they have us talking about them.
There is a difference between WIT and being a SEXIST ASSHOLE. Elizabeth Warren DARED to confront Scott Brown on his own level, so, naturally, he calls her an ugly bitch.
Scott Brown's comment reinforces a prejudice that affects 51% of the population.
Elizabeth Warren's comment reinforces a prejudice that affects a self-selecting fraction of the population.
I agree she's kinda a jerk for saying what she said, but Brown is much worse.
Brown is because he continues to run with talking points suggesting Warren is a pointy head when she worked her way through school and faced just as much adversity as Brown in growing up (a sick dad rather than multiple divorces, but "whatever."
Brown is the douche here because, as others have noted, what he said is factually incorrect. Without a doubt, when Warren was young, she was attractive enough to get paid to pose naked.
Which means that Brown has stooped to the level of the type of asshole who denigrates the appearance of even stunning women to put beautiful women in their place *and* to make it clear to more average women that they will never, ever be good enough.
i thought maybe she was subtlely making a comment about the hypocrisy on the right, towards women in general, and towards brown specifically. in addition, his comment plays right into this. but maybe she didn't mean it that way.
I don't think either are worth getting worked up over. They are both taking mild pot shots at one another, and both employing a certain (rather low) level amount of slut shaming. Eh.
She could have taken the high road with her comment, but instead chose the (typically republican) morality low blow. So he countered lower. At that game, he won.
But the real question is, where can we find pics of Scott Brown nude? For research purposes, of course.
I very reluctantly have to vote for Warren being worse here. In terms of just "Individual 1 - Kept my clothes on" and "Individual 2 - thank god" the sex-negative attacker is worse than the snappy come-back. Where it reversed, I would have chuckled with no problem at all. It's only my love of Warren and my dislike of Brown that makes this even a contest. The question is which statement is worse, not who we like best (which would be the most unneccesary Slog post evah).
The real question: will either apologize for their thoughtless, shaming (Warren of sex workers, Brown of women he doesn't find attractive), off-the-cuff responses?
Warren's is kinda doubly bad, since it not only shames sex workers but ignores the fact that many sex workers don't make a free choice to do sex work but are instead coerced by economic necessity (and many do make a relatively-free choice), essentially shaming people who might be victims of sexual violence at the hands of our economic system (coerced sexual activity is sexual violence, after all, even if it's not any specific individual doing the coercion and even if the sex work in question is relatively tame).
"Brown paid for law school, in part, by posing nude for Cosmopolitan magazine, the candidates were told. How did they?
âI kept my clothes on,â Warren said, again to laughter, before outlining her true blend of loans and work-study."
Perhaps she could have kept the aside to herself and the moderator should have avoided looking for that sort of "humor", but it was not a reply at the expense of sex-workers or denigrating them.
Warren was pointing out how you fools will only have yourselves to blame when you elect the usher to our insolvency based on how well he will look doing so. I don't see on what merit you could evaluate Brown's reply as comparable.
There is nothing wrong with being proud of yourself for working hard and keeping your self-respect. It is ok for people to choose sex work for themselves, but there are definitely better ways to live your life. And, as women, we should be proud when we kick ass in life not using our sexuality, especially when we are hot. I could have taken my clothes off for money when I was a broke and paying for college myself with no help, but I found better ways to pay my bills. And I am super proud of myself for that.
I don't so much like the argument of "he's reinforcing prejudice against 51% of the population" (nor do I like the argument "she's reinforcing anti-sex-work prejudice" either). Clearly it was an exchange of personal offenses based on extant stereotypes -- like all offenses (can you think of an offense that doesn't use some sort of stereotype?), not an attempt at defending said stereotypes. To think otherwise is to misunderstand offenses (or then to argue that the only way we can get rid of stereotypes is by getting rid of all offenses, which we'll never do).
If the world were totally sex-positive, then it would be much harder to earn money posing nude because everone would be willing to do it.. so in a way Warren is supporting sex workers by keeping the taboo.
As someone who is a prospective voter for these two,
The telling exchange was that Brown is Wall Street's favorite senator, while Warren isn't likely to have that "pleasure". Does stripping really have any place as a qualification for being a US senator? Hell, the Teabaggers are afraid of her!
This is exactly what whoever coined "two wrongs don't make a right" was talking about. Both of them struck pretty low, and I'm not in a position to champion either.
Brown's comment pissed me off way more, though. It's too personal, and awfully misogynistic to boot.
I had this same thought, that if we shame Brown for taking his clothes off, we shame sex workers in general. I came down on Warren's side, though, because although I wish she had used a different dig, Brown has a history of making sexist/skeevy comments.
One comment implies sex work is inherently bad and we should be proud of having avoided it, the other implies that ugly people being naked is an offense against humanity; one is a factually accurate objective assessment of the other person and the other is a factually inaccurate subjective assessment.
Both rate low on the scale o' offense, but I think there's more hypocrisy in a liberal being snotty about sex work than a conservative being snotty about ugly people.
A lot of this depends on how she said it. If it was more of an "I kept my clothes on, ha ha ha, now back to the real business..." then it's fine. If it was an "I kept MY clothes ON (sneer/glare/comment about how America is becoming degenerate)," then she was being dickish.
@73: "A lot of this depends on how she said it. If it was more of an "I kept my clothes on, ha ha ha, now back to the real business..." then it's fine. If it was an "I kept MY clothes ON (sneer/glare/comment about how America is becoming degenerate)," then she was being dickish."
Right, which is why people getting up in arms about "disrespect to sex work" are way off the mark.
To all those saying "she started it" - um, no, she didn't. The *host* did, by mentioning that Brown financed his education by stripping.
And those who've pointed out that a woman who did strip to finance her education would not be in office anywhere in this country are absolutely right. We only elect Madonnas in this country.
Brown's remark shows a very typical Republican value - women's only worth is in their perceived attractiveness to men.
So many comments about how Warren was denigrating sex workers or people who pose naked and none of them are based in fact.
Q. Scott Brown posed for Cosmo to pay for law school: how did you pay for school
A. I kept my clothes on...Actually I took out loans and worked a part time job
These are paraphrases but they are pretty accurate. I would love for someone to explain to me how she is attacking sex workers here? Is she shaming him? Did she say, "I kept my clothes on unlike that slut Scott Brown"? Nope. She made a joke; one that I read as being a little self-deprecating.
For the most part, people who would vote for Elizabeth Warren would not consider voting for Scott Brown and would laugh when Jon Stewart makes fun of him for the nude modeling.
People who would vote for Scott Brown, for the most part, laugh at his mean comments about Elizabeth Warren.
Neither candidate's supporters would vote for the other, and I would hope "undecided" voters are smart enough to be swayed by more important issues than jabs about nude modeling.
Meanwhile, I live in Oregon, so while I have a definite opinion about which candidate I'd rather see in office based solely on wanting my party to control the Senate, what they say about each other doesn't matter in the slightest to me.
The reporter asked a snarky question and received a snarky reply. Stop clutching your pearls.
Of course, I'm extremely biased. I adore Ms. Warren.
He called her ugly.
They both lose.
It really shows how shallow, and sexist the conservatives are when it comes to women.
"Forbes magazine named Scott Brown Wall Streetâs favorite senator. I was thinking, 'Thatâs probably not an award that Iâm going to get.'"
"The people on Wall Street broke this country, and they did it one lousy mortgage at a time. It happened more than three years ago, and there has been no real accountability, and there has been no real effort to fix it. Thatâs why I want to run for the United States Senate."
Mr. Brown, in contrast, is a pig.
She needs to keep taking more jabs like that, and she'll drag the GOP ugly out into the light.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_W…
Warren is part of the 1%.
Brown drives a pickup truck.
Why aren't you occupying her?
Woman posing for nude pictures for money = slut.
Man who refuses to pose nude for money = well, nothing really. Not commentworthy.
Woman who refuses to pose nude for money = uptight moralistic bluestocking. (Who needs sex and will probably never get it because she's ugly)
What Brown said was a personal "you're ugly" jab. There's also the very annoying implication that only young, pretty people should ever be seen nude or be secure and comfortable with their bodies, which is ridiculous.
So brown wins the jerk contest.
Both comments were pretty funny though.
By the time the next generation of political candidates run for office, scandalous photos will be ubiquitous. Remember when even the speculation of former drug use was political death? Our last three Presidents have admitted to using marijuana, and our last two have admitted to having done harder drugs. The same will be true of nudie pics in the future.
The question asked made mention of Brown in Cosmo. The questioner led all the candidates at the debate into it.
She probably should have just said calmly that she borrowed money to pay for college and spent her answer talking about the problems with current student loan programs. But a debate is a place where you're supposed to get feisty, and she's not one to avoid a fight.
By media rules, they both win -- they have us talking about them.
Scott Brown's comment reinforces a prejudice that affects 51% of the population.
Elizabeth Warren's comment reinforces a prejudice that affects a self-selecting fraction of the population.
I agree she's kinda a jerk for saying what she said, but Brown is much worse.
http://dailycaller.com/2011/06/17/did-el…
Which means that Brown has stooped to the level of the type of asshole who denigrates the appearance of even stunning women to put beautiful women in their place *and* to make it clear to more average women that they will never, ever be good enough.
But the real question is, where can we find pics of Scott Brown nude? For research purposes, of course.
Scott Brown: Douchesnozzle policies.
How is this even a question?
There are not enough cocks in this world to fuck the sense back into you.
Her reply was tasteful, as they were DIRECTLY discussing stripping with her.
It does not sound like she brought up Brown, the question was asked by another. It was a jokey aside, not an insult or judgment.
Brown was the bigger asshole here, he could have made any other sort of comment other than calling her ugly.
Oh and @44, you win the thread.
Warren's is kinda doubly bad, since it not only shames sex workers but ignores the fact that many sex workers don't make a free choice to do sex work but are instead coerced by economic necessity (and many do make a relatively-free choice), essentially shaming people who might be victims of sexual violence at the hands of our economic system (coerced sexual activity is sexual violence, after all, even if it's not any specific individual doing the coercion and even if the sex work in question is relatively tame).
"Brown paid for law school, in part, by posing nude for Cosmopolitan magazine, the candidates were told. How did they?
âI kept my clothes on,â Warren said, again to laughter, before outlining her true blend of loans and work-study."
Perhaps she could have kept the aside to herself and the moderator should have avoided looking for that sort of "humor", but it was not a reply at the expense of sex-workers or denigrating them.
The telling exchange was that Brown is Wall Street's favorite senator, while Warren isn't likely to have that "pleasure". Does stripping really have any place as a qualification for being a US senator? Hell, the Teabaggers are afraid of her!
Peace.
Brown's comment pissed me off way more, though. It's too personal, and awfully misogynistic to boot.
Both rate low on the scale o' offense, but I think there's more hypocrisy in a liberal being snotty about sex work than a conservative being snotty about ugly people.
Right, which is why people getting up in arms about "disrespect to sex work" are way off the mark.
And those who've pointed out that a woman who did strip to finance her education would not be in office anywhere in this country are absolutely right. We only elect Madonnas in this country.
Brown's remark shows a very typical Republican value - women's only worth is in their perceived attractiveness to men.
Q. Scott Brown posed for Cosmo to pay for law school: how did you pay for school
A. I kept my clothes on...Actually I took out loans and worked a part time job
These are paraphrases but they are pretty accurate. I would love for someone to explain to me how she is attacking sex workers here? Is she shaming him? Did she say, "I kept my clothes on unlike that slut Scott Brown"? Nope. She made a joke; one that I read as being a little self-deprecating.
For the most part, people who would vote for Elizabeth Warren would not consider voting for Scott Brown and would laugh when Jon Stewart makes fun of him for the nude modeling.
People who would vote for Scott Brown, for the most part, laugh at his mean comments about Elizabeth Warren.
Neither candidate's supporters would vote for the other, and I would hope "undecided" voters are smart enough to be swayed by more important issues than jabs about nude modeling.
Meanwhile, I live in Oregon, so while I have a definite opinion about which candidate I'd rather see in office based solely on wanting my party to control the Senate, what they say about each other doesn't matter in the slightest to me.