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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
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To make it short, SOUSL, if it is not a hormone issue (as @1 suggests), then move on...
Trust me, low libido people won't change for their partners. And if they do they won't make it any secret they're lying back and "Thinking of England", which will make her feel like shit.
She needs to get out.
Maybe it will be different for you. It's a shame some approved, safe non-monogamy isn't an option, but I'm glad you guys talked about it. I wish you sincere luck & think that with communication, most things can be worked around. Make sure all the what-if's have been thoroughly discussed BEFORE kids enter the picture.
" To Whom It May Concern:
I just finished reading your article - Another Andrew Meyer apology - and would like to make a response. I am absolutely sickened by the amount of press coverage Victoria Liss is receiving from the media regarding the public social media crusade she started against my husband, Andrew "Andy" Meyer. Andrew Meyer is a common name and I am not certain the number of different Andrew Meyer's she "attacked" before claiming my husband was THE customer who stiffed her from a tip and made a degrading comment about her weight. However, she decided to post my husband's picture which, in turn, led to others "digging up" information on him...some going as far to find his photo and college information from the Texas Tech Phi Kappa Psi website.
I would like to clarify for the record that she has not personally apologized to Andy regarding the situation she created. She has apologized through those who write the articles about this situation and to those who read her facebook wall. My husband received disturbing messages, some as far as threatening to kill him, for days. And I received countless messages harassing me about marrying a "national joke".
The mistake was discovered after my husband contacted Cha Cha Lounge to let them know that we had moved from Seattle to Dallas three years ago and have not been to visit since. They responded that they would take down the post but could not control those who had already re-posted his picture. Fortunately, they came out several hours later with an apology (both personally and publicly). It's unfortunate that an individual and business would react to a negative situation through the use of social media to bully/harass another individual rather than respond in an appropriate manner.
What does this say to our children who are bullied/harassed on a daily basis by their peers in school? Often times the end result is catastrophic - alcohol/drugs, dropouts, suicide, etc. It is my hope that all parties involved - Victoria, Cha Cha Seattle, and news sources - really use this opportunity to reflect on the consequences of how they attempted to resolve this particular manner and, in the future, THINK before they start a campaign to victimize somebody else.
Sincerely,
Jennifer Meyer"
You want a baby, and you and this guy are in love. If you're already 35 and he's only willing to put out once or twice a month though, think of what that does to your chances of even conceiving. If his priorities are the same as yours, he should be willing to compromise with you on a special baby-making schedule. If he's not, I'd move on.
At minimum, it's an inherently pleasant activity that really makes him happy, so I get pleasure from pleasing him. And, you never know, once started it just might ring my bell too. I certainly never felt like I was "thinking of England" and he never let on that he got that feeling.
I don't understand why the default position in couples with mismatched libidos is that of the lowest partner. It's not shovelling coal, people. Even if you wouldn't have thought of it, and don't *need* it, do it anyway. Why not?
As long as they know that The Sex may be an issue, and are ready to deal with it (always with sincerity, understanding, and lots of communication) and suggest alternatives.
Go ahead and good luck. Just don't forget to talk about problems, sexual and otherwise, that might undermine your partnership, as they come along!
Really, the thing that kills me most about being in a mismatched libido marriage isn't how often we do it, it's the level of interest in sex at all. It's agonizing not to have sex in common as, uh, I almost wanna say as a hobby - or a topic or a shared interest. If we were having different and interesting and good sex once a month and then sharing ideas or stories (even, SLLOTDs) and doing some planning for our next session in between, I would be a very, very happy wife. I throw stuff out there, sometimes there's talk, but clearly it's just way less interesting to him than to me. That's what you really need to think about, SOUSL.
Difficult but not impossible depending on what you mean by "satisfied."
If you just need sex with more frequency, or certain kinds of activities, it's always possible to negotiate these things.
If your satisfaction requires being ravaged head to toe by a sensuous and highly aroused male who just can't get enough of you, your bf isn't likely to ever deliver without medical/pharmaceutical intervention.
I also agree with Dan about the long term issue. Almost every couple I know that has been together a long time (including myself), sex falls off over time. It is never as good as it is the first few years.
Marry him if you feel you want him more than anyone else, not because time is running out and there's no one else. Divorce is more painful when a child is involved.
I really feel that people at the beginning of a long marriage have no understanding of the challenges they will face. So just allow each other to grow, keep talking, and don't insist on being bound forever by the limits that feel natural and easy at 35.
Also -- talk about the possibility of a ten year marriage. Just put that out there. You guys want the same thing right now, and for both of you the clock is ticking. (Sperm are renewable, but backs aren't, and an older dad misses some of the fun of playing with his kids.) Discuss whether you could be good co-parents, if one or both of you starts wanting something else out of life.
"Problem was that the Andrew Meyer that Liss vilified (she posted a link to his Facebook page and a photo) was the wrong Andrew Meyer.
Well, turns out that this isn't the first time that Ms. Liss has had experience accusing the wrong person of something awful.
In September 2007, Matthew Oly and Bryan Krieger were arrested and charged with felony harassment after Liss and a friend of hers, Marcus Wilson, identified them as having threatened to kill Wilson.
But six months later it became clear that Liss and co. weren't actually too sure that they had the right guys.
According to court documents obtained by Seattle Weekly, Wilson told officers that he was walking on Pike Street in Capitol Hill around 4 a.m. when someone asked him to borrow change. Wilson denied the request and kept walking, but when he did he said the person called him a "faggot" and threatened to kill him.
The man then supposedly followed Wilson and continued to hurl homosexual slurs at him until a second person rode up on a bicycle and started calling Wilson a "faggot" as well.
At this point Liss called Wilson--the two worked together at Pony at the time--to arrange to meet him, and Wilson answered the phone "in a panic."
Wilson told Liss that he was being "gay bashed" and to come quickly.
Liss told police that when she met Wilson, he was encircled by two men, both threatening to kill him.
At one point another man, Christopher Lynch, approached the group and began to call Liss "ugly," at which point she "became enraged" and called 911.
By the time police arrived, the two main harassers had left, but Liss and Wilson provided descriptions of them and two men, Kreiger and Oly, were arrested shortly afterward.
Liss and Wilson were then taken to the location where the two were being detained, and they identified the pair as the men who had harassed and threatened Wilson.
The two were quickly booked into King County Jail, and four days later both men were charged with felony harassment, though both denied it was they who'd done the harassing.
Skip about six months: Kreiger submitted to a polygraph test about the incident--a test he passed with flying colors.
Meanwhile, Liss and Wilson suddenly began to have doubts about both Oly and Kreiger being the ones who made the threats.
Suddenly the case was dismissed.
According to the Order of Dismissal, the reason for dropping the case was not only the results of the polygraph test, but also due to "some uncertainty as to the identity of the perpetrators."
King County Prosecuting Attorney spokesperson Dan Donohoe explains further. "I spoke with Deputy [King County] Prosecutor Mike Hogan. His recollection was that Liss and Wilson became less certain of the identity of the people responsible."
That was, of course, after the two had been jailed, charged, forced to retain lawyers, submit to polygraph tests, and generally have their lives turned upside down for several months.
Note: Liss did not respond to numerous calls for comment about this incident."
@12 has summed up my feeling about it. If the sex is good when it happens, why is there an expectation that both parties have be 'feeling it' at the exact same moment before anything can start? On the other hand, it occurs to me how self serving that is. It's good to hear someone who has experienced this from the other side make the same argument.
WHAT?! Are y'all freaking kidding me?! Ok. So, one of my lovers has already had 3 kids, and trust me, if it wasn't for the fact that I have a WHOLE LOT of self control, she would be having a 4th kid from *me*. Like, I thought I had a high libido, and then she came over to my place every night for, like, 2 weeks. She wore me the fuck out, and she STILL wanted more. I dated one other mom before her (this one only had 1 kid), but it was about the same.
So, I'm just saying. I don't know what the Hell y'all are talking about!
The brain is all chemicals. Maybe there's a safe way to boost his libido.
Would it not make so much more sense for the LW to find a man who is as passionate about showing love (as much as loving) but who perhaps is sterile or whose sperm have low motility, etc. and for whom it wouldn't matter that any children would not be his biologically. Then the LW could have the relationship that she craves and deserves (both emotionally and sexually) and, via AI with a donor who matches her husband's traits, a desired child.
I can just see a few years down the road, when the LW needs to have her alone-time, even if not daily, but on a regular basis. Where is she going to go? The spare bedroom is now her growing child's. So, does she kick her husband out of the bedroom in order to satisfy herself – because I honestly cannot see a partner with a low libido sticking around that frequently to watch/experience something in which he shows little interest. [I know it's often suggested that the partner with a low libido help out but (personally) I would find that even more frustrating.]
When the child is older, I can just imagine the questions. "Daddy, what's Mommy doing?" And Daddy has to come up with all sorts of excuses such as Mommy's shaving her legs, putting on face cream, talking to Aunt Margaret (but it's not wise to include people who can sink the alibi) or – best one – Mommy has a headache and needed to lie down.
Besides, an orgasm =/= sexual satisfaction (and a vibrator won't cuddle you afterwards, either). There's something magical about seeing the intense spark of love and lust in your partner's eyes during intimate times that reinvigorates the relationship bonds.
Years later, when the two are living in a companionable though virtually sexless marriage, the LW may eventually realize she's living in a theoretical marriage, one where many of the ideals are shared by both, but – then again – you could have that with a roommate, and that is what her husband would be to her.
If she gets bitter, she may look at her now teenage offspring and wonder, If it weren't for you, I might have had a chance to be happy.
Her biological clock screaming at her is the worst reason to settle for a man who doesn't fulfill ALL her needs. Seriously.
As others have said, if this is an issue now, it will be huge in a few years. She must know this too. Instead of listening to her biological clock, she should be listening to the alarm bells going off in her head. She says they have a great relationship, but in actuality, they don't.
Granted, the frequency mismatch can be an issue in that respect. If you want it once a month and he wants it once a day, and he keeps asking every single day...sure, you will start to feel pressured after a while. But it's insufficient to simply settle for the lower libido with a promise to never drop below that level. If one person wants once a day and the other wants once a month, once a week is a much better midpoint than twice a month.
My advice: stay flexible. If it isn't children, it's work, or family, or having a wonderful time as a couple. There are SO many things that you can plan for, and accidents you can't. Something that isn't usually discussed on SLOG is finance; sometimes flexibility can only be derived by financial security (and vice versa). Being frugal early on, when we didn't have to be gave us a lot of freedom, and decreased stress, later on when it was a wonderful escape (such as hiring cleaners once or twice a month, or finding a vacation where someone else could care for the kids while we made a joyous noise)(Anyone that thinks finance isn't a major stress on sex in an LTR hasn't been in an LTR). The goal is to keep it (finance) from becoming an overwhelming focus in your life, while maintaining the focus on sex.
Also, don't be afraid to ask. As long as no means no, and "comfy" sex is fulfilling, your balance is always "out there" as an important part of the relationship. Don't forget that you becomes "you all" (or "youse" as my niece's new husband told me).
Treat yourself to sensuality when you can. If that means taking your kids with you to concerts and good food, then you get an even bigger bang for your buck. If you end up bored with your life, that's your own damn fault.
Peace.
You're quite right that at some point "you" becomes "you all", and that's exactly the problem. It's a struggle to stand up for my own needs, both the physical kind and the more mundane do-your-part-around-the-house-stuff. My impulse is to think about the things we are working towards together, and to give the support she needs to get her professional life sorted out. It feels very unnatural to balance that with making demands on my own behalf.
Unnatural or not, it may be crucial to both your relationship and your sense of self that you stand up for yourself at some point. Do you have someone to talk to about your needs and where they come on the balance sheet of your relationship?
Peace.
Peace.
We are having these conversations more often and more honestly in the last few weeks, but the result so far has been the same as ever--concessions from me (intercourse is currently off the table, for instance), and vague, empty promises from her.
I don't see a resolution coming anytime soon; but I'm not ready to call it quits either. That puts me in a tough spot.
Nobody should have to have sex when they are actively against the idea, but there should be a pretty wide overlap of, as the song says "She doesn't need it but she says it's all right".
I remember at one point, when I was nursing one child while pregnant with the next, where I felt a real aversion to letting one more damn person use my body. That was just a couple of months, though, and even then we figured out a few things to do that didn't trigger that response. Doing things for each other is the whole point of having a partner - otherwise why bother?
On the physical affection front, if intercourse is off the table, how about hugs? Would mutual massage sessions help to allow you feel close? Where did you go on your last date, and what are you going to do on your next one? Where is the fun and humor in your life, and how will you build it up?
In many ways a car crash is more acceptable, we don't usually tie our identities into our driving. Self worth is surprisingly fragile, and it's loss surprisingly incapacitating. Years of therapy (related to childhood and family of origin problems) have allowed me to reestablish self worth around the many great aspects of my life, and to fix the flaws that made me fragile in the first place (In my case the traumas were more like multiple car crashes, losing my home every 3 years, and being stalked in my own home. Figuring out how to get better should be a lot easier for your SO.). Perspective won't help much, but it is a place to start the rebuilding process.
Peace.
You are definitely in a tough spot. But I like how you are owning your own part in this. You can't control what she does with her life, you can only control what you do with your life. Right now, you are not ready to end the relationship. But you seem to realize that some day, you may have to, for your own well-being. I applaud your efforts to make the relationship work, and your clarity about the fact that despite your best efforts, it may not work in the long run.
No idea where you saw me equate "physical desire" solely with "penetrative sex," but be that as it may, I didn't get the impression from the letter that a person who "seldom masturbates, is indifferent to porn, no kink at all, etc." would be beating down the doors to try out all those other creative things that also count as sex, on the other 29 days of the month.
If it's something along the lines of "Of course I desire you! Look at how clean I keep this house for you!" the recipient of that would not be in the wrong for failing to experience the frantic vacuuming and laundry-folding as raw lust. Hence the essence of the original comment: be sure that you understand what you yourself need from your partner in terms of validation.
You will find that if there are problems in the marriage, the frequency of sex will be an easy subject to bring up: "and another thing you never do right...." so, you'll have to fight the temptation to throw it in his face, and he'll have to do the same thing.
but when the marriage is good, the infrequency of sex will not be an issue.
(ps, sometime hubby will just hold my hand or snuggle me while I masturbate. And he complements me. and he does the dishes, and helps with cooking, and makes me tea every morning. These things make the low frequency of sex a non-issue most of the time.)
I pointed my partner to this thread last night, and this morning she avowed an "always say yes" policy. This may turn into a great success story for the complain-to-the-internet approach to problem solving. It's a promising start, at least.
Thanks again, all.
I apologize for the curtness of my note. Sometimes things are so complex that it is difficult to express something meaningful. And the topic of desire truly is complicated. So I ended up cutting back the ball of snarls to what I wrote.
And then @64 got written, and summed up most of what I wanted to get across. In fact, desire comes and goes in different forms and intensities, sometimes hitting with ruthlessness over the weirdest things. Other times it can be built up and developed, nurtured to a fine pitch that makes a simple date into ecstasy. When I'm lying there, body soaked with my wife's juices and sweat, amused by the little buzzing snore she has and warming her body with mine, all I can think of is "How do I get back here next time?". Putting it that way, I guess desire is a journey made from many parts, hopes , and wishes. But then, I am a love addict...
Peace.
Any significant change in one partner's libido should be taken very seriously and not ignored -- your sex life and your marriage are at stake. Hormone issue? orgasms difficult? stress? Figure it out.