SL Letter of the Day: Cock the Vote

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Bullshit.

Fnarf on October 28, 2011 at 4:04 PM

@1: Yep. Fake.

yuiop on October 28, 2011 at 4:06 PM

Faaaaaaake.

rejemy on October 28, 2011 at 4:07 PM

Look, people, every question is hypothetical to all readers save one. Accept the premise and debate. Or beat off. Or beat off then debate.

Dan Savage on October 28, 2011 at 4:11 PM Stranger Staff

I think he should talk to his wife about opening up the relationship minimally and only for oral sex. She might be relieved to be let off the hook (so-to-speak) and not to be bothered with him asking for oral. Depending on how he think's she'll respond, h can suggest that it only be with another guy. Hopefully she'll see that men are actually less of a threat to her than women since SOS seems pretty straight. I don't think he has to confess to prior "sins" when he asks for permission. If he gets the green light, awesome! I hope his wife is understanding enough to hand over her "wifely duties" for just this one sex act that she doesn't enjoy. But I don't think she's obligated to and I think if she's not okay with it, he should stop.

caliclimbergrl on October 28, 2011 at 4:13 PM

Besides the obvious bragging, you'd refer to the trainer as a friend, not your trainer if you've 'known him for years'.

Subdued Excitement on October 28, 2011 at 4:14 PM

I like how he thinks of himself as "much more sexually adventurous" because he gets blow jobs from his trainer. I'd ask him to think about his wife fucking other guys. Is that okay with him? What if it's happening four or five times a week? Still okay? Great! Then I'll punch your "sexually adventurous" card, and go do the hard work of discussing your desires with your wife and listening to what she wants out of life as well.

"My wife happens to be the only woman I've been with who is terrible at sucking dick... and doesn't enjoy [it] at all."

Then why on earth did you marry her? Please, people, think about your forty-year-old self before you get married. Please.

EricaP on October 28, 2011 at 4:15 PM

@4: that's fine in most cases, and this premise might be somewhat plausible if it weren't written like a Penthouse Forum letter. But it's too transparently fake to be worth debating.

yuiop on October 28, 2011 at 4:19 PM

SOS should continue to pester his wife for those blow jobs at the same or slightly reduced rate, or else she'll know something's up. Send video.

Valkyrie on October 28, 2011 at 4:21 PM

Perhaps fake, nevertheless...

I agree with both 5 and 7. Just ask the wife what she'd think about him getting bj's from someone else. And tell her it's ok if she gets something done from someone else too... something she wants but he sucks at.

And for fuck's sake, like 7 said, don't get married to someone who doesn't give you something sexually that you feel you need, unless you agree beforehand that extramarital whatevers are on the table.

Urgutha Forka on October 28, 2011 at 4:25 PM

They're almost always fake, but usually they're by people who are clever enough to make them sound realistic. This one is just laughable.

ian on October 28, 2011 at 4:26 PM

I did, for the record, eliminate a graph, and some details.

Dan Savage on October 28, 2011 at 4:28 PM Stranger Staff

I refuse to believe it's real until Dan posts at least two weeks' worth of encounters onto Slog for our, er, perusal.

emma's bee on October 28, 2011 at 4:29 PM

If the BJs keep him from getting it elsewhere, and keep his home life happy, just keep it off the radar and don't get caught.

SeattleKim on October 28, 2011 at 4:33 PM

...a graph? What, did the dude plot out his wife's blowjob frequency using Microsoft Chart?

Doctor Memory on October 28, 2011 at 4:35 PM

Sadly, he can't Ask Beth, since Dan is weaseling out.

But you know, if this is real, chances are he'll bring HPV home to the wifey if she doesn't have it already, and unlike the clap or various other STDs, she may never know THEY have it until she gets cervical cancer or he grows a tumor on his cock.

Also, if Corbin Fisher is any guide, in a few weeks he'll be swallowing the trainer's spunk too.

rob! on October 28, 2011 at 4:36 PM

Also:

"...and the next thing you know we were back at his place and he was swallowing my cock."

"...and then suddenly oops, I slipped in the shower and the next thing I knew this huge dildo was in my ass!"

Fake, a closet case in denial, or both.

Doctor Memory on October 28, 2011 at 4:38 PM

Why would you marry and have 3 kids with someone that doesn't satisfy you?

lizdini on October 28, 2011 at 4:39 PM

Sorry, I voted before the debate.

I'm a little confused, so I'm hoping someone will clarrify this for me: He says it's the 'typical' "he wants it all the time, she doesn't" situation, but the real unevenness is that she doesn't like to suck dick. How does that equate to 'sex is so good otherwise with my wife'?

I'm pretty certain that by someone's yardstick, 200+ blow jobs in a year constitutes a long term relationship with this guy. I suspect that Mr Man realizes this, else why would his sign off indicate that he feels that he needs to make a choice?

The wife can learn to suck dick like a champion, but she has to want to. And lots of women apparently don't like to go down--I don't understand it, but there you are. I don't like doing the dishes, but I do them because they need to get done.

If they were to open the relationship minimally and only for oral, does the wife get to go to whomever she chooses for oral? Would this be a different situation if the dick sucker was a 22 year old woman that he picked up at the gym?

catballou on October 28, 2011 at 4:43 PM

By the time you reach the point of telling someone about the affair, the answer is always "End it before your wife finds out".

tiktok on October 28, 2011 at 4:47 PM

@7: Not quite a fair comparison. Presumably he would like to be the one fucking her. If she is doing someone else 4 or times a week, that leaves him out in the cold. If he is perfectly happy providing the 4 or 5 fuckings per week himself, and he is enthusiastic and reasonably good at it, she has no good reason to outsource it.

If you want a fair trade, the thing that she would be getting outside would have to be something that he detests and would prefer to be excused from.

avast2006 on October 28, 2011 at 4:53 PM

And now I want to see the graph.

catballou on October 28, 2011 at 4:59 PM

" I am completely different animal sexually than my wife. It's the typical "he wants it all the time, she doesn't" situation. However, my issues runs a little deeper than difference between the sexes, and crosses the line into my being much more sexually adventurous and having an appetite for receiving head that won't quit. My wife happens to be the only woman I've been with who is terrible at sucking dick, and refuses to swallow. I'm a complete fiend when it comes to getting deep throated and my load swallowed. She refuses, and as I'm pretty well endowed, she gags and doesn't enjoy giving oral at all."

I'll go with the faaaaaaake crew, because he married this woman, fully knowing what she liked to do and didn't like to do.

Voted: Hot, but still cheating.

undead ayn rand on October 28, 2011 at 4:59 PM

@20: "How does that equate to 'sex is so good otherwise with my wife'? "

Because if the guy exists, he's just the kind of "adventurous" guy that wants an excuse to cheat on his partner, every partner.

undead ayn rand on October 28, 2011 at 5:00 PM

@22 This isn't a financial transaction that has to be equal. He wants something more out of life; then he needs to listen to what she really wants. I agree that her outside fun shouldn't cut into their marital sex, but maybe she can fuck other guys in the afternoon and him in the evening. That's probably not what she actually wants -- maybe she wants big black cock once a month. Maybe she wants to go out on Friday nights to a BDSM club. Maybe she wants to get back in touch with a boyfriend from high school. My point is -- he doesn't get to unilaterally renegotiate their sex life. Tell her what you want, then listen to what she wants, then figure out whether you can stay together and both be happy.

EricaP on October 28, 2011 at 5:01 PM

@22: I think the point EricaP was making in #7 is that this guy is excusing his behavior on the grounds that he's more sexually adventurous than his wife, and his definition of "adventurous" seems to be that he loves having his cock sucked frequently.

nocutename on October 28, 2011 at 5:03 PM

4 or 5 times a week? I'm guessing she already knows. But if you're going to do something in secret, basic sense says don't do it all the time.

That guilt is also not going to get any better without killing a part of yourself.

So tell her and get the sign off or cut it out--or cut it back!

LukeJoe on October 28, 2011 at 5:04 PM

@26: Maybe she doesn't want anything more than to know that her husband isn't lying or cheating. Maybe she's got no sexual desires that aren't being met. Maybe what she really wants is some help with those three kids.

nocutename on October 28, 2011 at 5:06 PM

Also, I normalized swallowing in my relationship by doing it first and by doing it often. He should try informing his wife that the cunnilingus is available at the snap of her fingers, and act disappointed if she does't take him up on it. Demonstrate by doing, buddy.

Also, also--I live in the Bay Area and would like to know what gym he goes to and who his trainer is. It's okay, they basically thrive on referrals.

LukeJoe on October 28, 2011 at 5:08 PM

I agree with @7. You don't get to unilaterally alter the terms of your agreement with your partner, and you certainly don't get to do so without her knowing about it. That's a fucking cowardly thing to do. Imagine how you'd feel if your wife were getting her pussy eaten out five times per week by the gardener or the poolboy. And before you raise the bullshit distinction about things you're willing to provide, assume her needs require things you cna't provide. Like a lover of a different race, age, or sex.

So. You have two options:

1. Knock it off with the blowjobs.
2. Tell your wife you want to get blowjobs outside the relationship, and listen to what she wants to get outside the relationship. Then renegotiate the parameters of the relationship. And if she's unwilling to share you, decide whether the blowjobs are more important than your marriage.

And oh by the way: the fact that you need your cum guzzled means you are not practicing safe sex. Yes, the risk of STIs from receiving head is relatively low, but it isn't non-existent, and that's a risk your wife is sharing that she doesn't know about. Ans she absolutely has a right to know.

I Hate Screen Names on October 28, 2011 at 5:11 PM

fake and bi

cpt. tim on October 28, 2011 at 5:14 PM

Dear Dan,

I never thought this would happen to me, but. . . .

seatackled on October 28, 2011 at 5:14 PM

i never used to like sucking dick, but i did it anyway because the guys really like it. then i realized eating pussy is so much more fun and came out and lived happily ever after.

i recommend his wife come over to my place.

on October 28, 2011 at 5:19 PM

OMG, not ten minutes ago, I was wondering how/ if it would be possible to set up a NSA/BJ only /ongoing thing with a hot guy. I'm not submissive or anything. That's just what I really want right now.

Would the LW feel less guilty if it were a woman?

Dan, I know you don't usually do LW/commenter hook-ups.... but help a girl out.

TheOtherWoman on October 28, 2011 at 5:21 PM

Divorce your wife and continue getting head from your trainer until you find a woman who can knock it back as good as him - or is willing to meat you halfway.

Shoulda thought about your lack of head when you married her.

A friend of mine told me a mutual friend doesn't believe in giving head but wants herself to be eaten out. I think she's still a virgin.

Drew2u on October 28, 2011 at 5:31 PM

@26: Well, if you are going to take the approach of "just ask for what you want" then there's no reason he shouldn't ask for getting head (or more) from anybody he wants, too -- including women, not just his supposedly non-threatening trainer.

Sure, open the discussion wide open. Nothing wrong with that approach. Just the way you posed your response sounded to me like "If you expect her to be cool with your one option, you have to be cool with potentially any of her other options -- including things that constitute an escalation over what you yourself have proposed -- or you forfeit your "adventurous" card." That is a) overstating your case, and b) an unreasonable negotiating stance. The parameters of the agreement don't _have_ to be perfectly symmetric -- but if they are assymmetric in a way that one partner finds objectionable, the assymmetry itself is reasonable grounds for rejecting them.

avast2006 on October 28, 2011 at 5:32 PM

@35: "with a hot guy"

Yeah, you assume a great deal here.

undead ayn rand on October 28, 2011 at 5:32 PM

Well, anyone that sucks at giving head deserves to be cheated on. At least we can all agree on that, right?

OuterCow on October 28, 2011 at 5:43 PM

There's a difference between hypothetical and fake. This is FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAKE.

NotYourStrawMan on October 28, 2011 at 5:46 PM

"And before you raise the bullshit distinction about things you're willing to provide, assume her needs require things you cna't provide. Like a lover of a different race, age, or sex."

Wrong. You don't assume that. You establish it. Assuming it is begging the question. Logic fail.

And it isn't bullshit. If this guy was getting the blowjobs he wanted from his wife, the whole situation wouldn't have come up and he wouldn't have written in to Dan. (I don't see a letter from her saying that he isn't meeting her needs. When I see such a letter, I will consider that a factor.) Funny how that works. Satisfied couples don't write to advice columnists.

avast2006 on October 28, 2011 at 5:49 PM

nocutename @27 - yep, thanks!
@29 - we've been instructed on Slog not to act as if low-libido moms need more help with the chores or the children. Slog guys swear they help all the time, with everything, and it doesn't improve their sex life. As for her desire to know he isn't cheating... I think, like @28, that she probably has an inkling of what's up, if this has really been going on 4 or 5 times a week for a year. If only because he has stopped bugging her for blow jobs.

He's definitely a dick. Maybe she knows everything. Maybe they both like the stability of their marriage more than they like change. Wouldn't suit me, but he sounds ready to keep going with the blow jobs and just deal with the guilt and the blame when it all comes out.

EricaP on October 28, 2011 at 5:51 PM

Why isn't 'talk to his wife about blowjobs' on the list? Maybe they can negotiate an open relationship. Or maybe if the wife knew how important they were to him she might be willing to up her game.

Would he be willing to compromise? Cum but not in her mouth? Something like that.

msanonymous on October 28, 2011 at 5:51 PM

Given that there are real health concerns here, he should tell the wife regardless. There has been a lot of discussion recently on SLOG about HPV; it is astonishing SOS didn't even consider that. As a result of his selfish escapades, she could have something that is, at the very least, unpleasant [chlamydia anyone?] or, at worst, deadly.
Also, his lack of gratitude is galling. Given his personality and physical accoutrements, he is lucky she has sex with him at all.

on October 28, 2011 at 5:53 PM

@41 - I thought I was satisfied, until I learned that we were opening up the marriage. Then I was able to think of some things I had long ago pushed into a back corner of my brain, the corner labeled "I guess I'm not getting more of that in this lifetime."

EricaP on October 28, 2011 at 5:58 PM

SOS is a POS douchbag. You have a wife. and children. And your relationship doesn't suck (pun intended), other than the lack of oral. Quit trying to mess up what you have.

on October 28, 2011 at 6:07 PM

@45: That might be the wife's case, here, too, but I didn't mean that if her husband helped with housework, she might get a higher libido or want to deep throat him and swallow and be able to do it to his liking. I just meant that here on Slog we have been "trained" to think of everyone as having some kink, whether met or not, and some people may just not.
She might be perfectly happy with the libido that she has and there might be no hidden desires that her jerky husband is unaware of, much less unable to satisfy.

nocutename on October 28, 2011 at 6:13 PM

@45: " I thought I was satisfied, until I learned that we were opening up the marriage. Then I was able to think of some things I had long ago pushed into a back corner of my brain, the corner labeled "I guess I'm not getting more of that in this lifetime"

I've only passively read your posts. so forgive me if I'm misinterpreting, but as a non-situational submissive, don't you unquestioningly obey what you're told? You thought you were satisfied until he told you *he* was unsatisfied, and you adapted. I don't think anyone outside of that sort of immersive lifestyle should be forced choose the "I guess I'm not getting more of that in this lifetime" option.

Besides, the LW didn't offer his wife any options in return to open up the marriage, nor does he want to.

undead ayn rand on October 28, 2011 at 6:13 PM

She has a right to choose whether to consent to what's happening in their marriage. Deceit is not cool.

He should try to get the green light from her: he knows she's not a fan, and it troubles him to ask her to do something she isn't into, so can he get her off the hook and get it --safely, sanely-- elsewhere from a nonthreatening friend who has offered.

Answer her questions, process feelings. If she puts up hoops for him to jump through (like she wants to meet the friend, or never hear about the friend, or she gets to do xyz with somebody else, or prove again that he's still totally into her, or whatever), then he should jump through those hoops happily.

If she says No -- well, too bad, buddy. Don't be a CPOS.

SpaceGirl on October 28, 2011 at 6:14 PM

I certainly buy into the idea that he'd ask her if she minds. There was a letter a couple of months ago about a similar situation, wasn't there? The one where the girlfriend let her gay best friend go to town on her boyfriend because she didn't care so much for giving blowjobs? Am I mis-remembering?

Absurdist1968 on October 28, 2011 at 6:15 PM

Yeah, there should really be a "Don't ask us, ASK HER" option on that vote.

SpaceGirl on October 28, 2011 at 6:21 PM

Talk. To. Your. Wife.

Jennifer Nicole on October 28, 2011 at 6:26 PM

@41 sayeth:

Wrong. You don't assume that. You establish it. Assuming it is begging the question. Logic fail.

You might want to read my post at @31 more closely. You know, the part that starts with "Imagine that..."

Reading comprehension fail.

I Hate Screen Names on October 28, 2011 at 6:36 PM

Well, if he is feeling guilty, he should probably stop. Or at least examine what is going on more closely. But dear god, stop or don't stop -- send video either way.

(It's probably fake yeah, but a fun one.)

As far as being the "only" woman he knows who doesn't like to give oral -- well, she's in good company. There's lots of factors for not liking to give oral. He should probably also be asking himself if not getting BJ's is worth the price of admission.

But send those videos in.

BEG on October 28, 2011 at 6:36 PM

Doesn't really matter if it's fake, right? And we'll never really know, so can't we all just do the right thing and imagine it to be true? It is the right thing to do. Pictures, please (even if fake). Thanks for the wanking-fodder, Dan!

Michael of the Green on October 28, 2011 at 6:41 PM

248, you're right that I'm a bad example. But I bet 50% of Slog readers in monogamous marriages have something they think of as "guess I'm not getting more of that in this lifetime." Sex with a particular person, kissing a stranger, caressing different breasts/penis than the usual, more aggression in bed, a certain cologne they remember fondly... It's just that the "price of admission," as Dan says, is worth it, so you put that wish in a dark corner of your brain, and you don't take it out again until... it turns out your partner wants to open up the marriage. Or your marriage ends, one way or another.

EricaP on October 28, 2011 at 7:07 PM

@48, not 248. Sorry!

EricaP on October 28, 2011 at 7:08 PM

Toasting in a cake bread. I mean, posting in a fake thread.

venomlash on October 28, 2011 at 7:14 PM

Wow, there are clearly a HUGE number of unmarried Sloggers (not surprising)--but what is surprising (or maybe not) is their sanctimonious purity. "Never get married to someone who isn't perfect in every way." "I can't imagine marrying someone who didn't satisfy my every sexual need." Well, get used to being single, I guess. No one is perfect, sanctimonious Sloggers, not even--*gasp*--you.

the idiot formerly known as kk on October 28, 2011 at 7:17 PM

I agree, it's fake. If I'm treating it as a hypothetical, it's still impossible to say. This is a case of Schrödinger's Wife: the only way to know if it's OK is to know what his wife thinks of it. But asking his wife after the fact is likely to change her disposition for the worse, and at worst eliminate his reason for worrying about what the wife and three kids think.

Prettybetsy on October 28, 2011 at 7:21 PM

You're not in an open relationship. You're cheating. It's a pity you live in a community property state because when your wife finds out, she ought to get everything while your naked ass freezes to death outside, assuming you've not been too goddamn selfish to buy sufficient life insurance to provide your kids with a good future.

Had you discussed this matter with her BEFORE dicking around with your trainer & if y'all came to an agreement, then I'd say, "No problem."

But, instead, you've put your needs in front of your kids' needs. Why do we let assholes have kids?

igub on October 28, 2011 at 7:24 PM

I agree with the comments noting the serious contradictions in his assessment of his sex life with his wife. If it is truly great in every other way, then he is a self-centered CPOS. He's got no grounds for going out on her like this. That level of behavior is reserved for crisis situations, in which it would be an emotional crime to abandon a partner, but there is no way to get intimate needs met inside the relationship (serious illness, etc.). Just cus he wants hot juicy BJs, does not mean he is entitled to take them at any cost. Dude: Talk to your wife, see what's possible, and make your peace with it. Or make your exit. You've got nothing to justify anything else.

very_very_vera on October 28, 2011 at 7:26 PM

@59, if something is really important to you, don't knowingly put yourself in a situation where you can't have it. It's not that complicated, just takes some self-respect.

EricaP on October 28, 2011 at 7:42 PM

@56 is right. Every commitment comes with a little "guess I'm not getting more of that in this lifetime."

As for my vote: totally hot; makes me wish I had a personal trainer. But, even speaking as someone in a committed relationship which came packaged up with a disastrous sex life, this guy needs to cut it out until he can make an arrangement with his wife.

no_reply on October 28, 2011 at 7:43 PM

I would learn toward fake but you really never know. I met up with an old grade school friend. We fooled around a few times when we were 15 but he's married with kids now. It'd been 20 years since I had seen him. But he wanted me to go down on him but not reciprocate. The sad part of it is, he couldn't keep aroused and just said it wasn't doing it for him and that he thought he wouldn't mind a guy again but guessed he just liked women more. That's how you know my story is real, it didn't have the hot outcome. But still, you have a basically straight guy who wanted to give it a try with me going down on him. Said he had not had a BJ in a long time. I lean bullshit, but it could be legit. There's not nearly as many "straight but like their dick sucked by a guy" guys out there as we like to fantasize about, but they do exist. I think even my old friend might have gotten off but suspect he felt guilty too or just got psyched out.

hifiandrew on October 28, 2011 at 8:28 PM

I chose the third option: So hot, but he should stop. But my position is a little more nuanced. Is his wife open to her getting side head? Would she freak out if she found about his side head? Could you work out an "I'll pretend not to be doing it, and you pretend not to know I'm doing it" arrangement?

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure I've seen a porn movie like this. I'm pretty sure I've seen several. My bullshit detector is going off. Getting secret blowjobs from a secretly bi personal trainer who likes to go deep and is hungry to swallow cum? Pics or it didn't happen. Video or it didn't happen. In fact, invite me to watch so I can confirm personally. Actually, I think I should test this man's oral capabilities because I'm not quite buying it. Let this deep-throating, cum-swallowing personal trainer go down on me and then maybe I'll believe it happened.

Daniel_NY on October 28, 2011 at 8:56 PM

Wait - so "tawdry and about as inelegantly phrased as possible" is the new definition of scorching hot? I suppose it might be useful to file away for future reference.

But it would really depress me to think that it was for this that Lytton Strachey inquired into the nature of the stain on Vanessa Stephen's dress.

vennominon on October 28, 2011 at 9:00 PM

@58 - mmmmm, cake.

this guy I know in Spokane on October 28, 2011 at 9:15 PM

@53: Okay, I get (at least I think I get) that you are saying to the Letter Writer "Ya big hypocrite, imagine how you would feel if your wife was doing [insert sexual activity here that we stipulate you detest or can't provide, in order to make it an analogy to the fact that she doesn't like to swallow] with the poolboy. You'd hate it, wouldn't you? Be honest now." You are presuming that you know exactly how he would feel, and that he would be equally unhappy about her outsourcing it regardless of whether or not it was something he wanted to do or could do. I don't believe you have enough information to make those assertions. There are tons of people on these boards who have said that they feel differently about something they can't provide (example: a guy who can't be female for his bi wife) than about something they are capable of and want to provide. That indicates two things: a) that distinction does in fact matter to many people, therefore not the bullshit you claim it is; and b) you don't get to tell him how he would react. You only get to tell him how you would react in his shoes. (Fair disclosure: I make that same mistake myself regularly.)

avast2006 on October 28, 2011 at 9:26 PM

Back to LW's original situation, yeah, what 20 said. How do you reconcile "It's the typical "he wants it all the time, she doesn't" situation" with "Since sex is so good otherwise with my wife," anyway? It's kind of hard to picture him as seriously deprived if the second quote is true.

More importantly, his wife should have the right to informed consent in this situation - including but not limited to the fact that he is putting her at risk of STIs. He needs to cut it out until he can make an arrangement with her.

avast2006 on October 28, 2011 at 9:49 PM

Suddenly, my cock was in his mouth! I had no idea he was bi!

...

...Riiiight. Because straight guys go out to dinner with their trainers for a nice manly platonic evening all the time.

Gou Tongzhi on October 28, 2011 at 10:15 PM

Now I know why they call this rag "The Stranger". I feel like one because I bought this story. If there's one thing I'm familiar with, it's how many married straight guys are getting blow jobs from bi or gay guys. It's simply not even arguable any more. I'm more interested in the long-term implications of this guy's bromance.

Okay, this letter *is* hot, but only about as hot a tea heated for 3 minutes in a microwave.

Here's MOLTEN LAVA (a *true* story):

http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/lr…

Ray_Harwick on October 28, 2011 at 10:17 PM

Oh, another way to tell it's fake: If it was real, he wouldn't be writing an advice columnist.

"Hey, I have the perfect porn-ready solution to a problem common to many men in long-term relationships!"

"Is... is there a question you'd like to ask?"

"No, just boasting."

Gou Tongzhi on October 28, 2011 at 10:18 PM

Relax, fucking around with men isn't cheating if you're straight.

seandr on October 28, 2011 at 10:25 PM

Dan, the graph, or it didn't happen.

california reader on October 28, 2011 at 10:32 PM

If it's just blow jobs, what's the harm? Might want to get some Valtrex on the standby.

Also, four or five times a week seems like a lot. Chances are if you are meeting your trainer four or fives a week and getting blown after your crunches, odds get better someone's gonna find out the longer it goes on. Inevitability, y'know.

Bauhaus I on October 28, 2011 at 11:39 PM

Dan must be in a giving mood. Usually he informs the obvious wankers that he knows they're Beating Off Furiously to their little story. It's the details: dick too big for the wifey to handle, "masculine" trainer who identifies as straight...
But sure, if we're playing along at home, he is a CPOS unless he gets permission for this happy little arrangement. But that would take all the fun out of it.

CLDG on October 29, 2011 at 12:33 AM

If this guy is unwilling to include his wife in some of the workout sessions and assess the possibility of including her in the post-workout sessions, then he should quit. It could be the best way for her to learn what he wants by watching it in action, and if he's not willing to include her then he's a CPOS.

Heat assessment:
Deep, mmm, suck, mmm, swallow, mmm: Beard stubble and trainer muscles, get me out of this locker room noww.

It could be your wife isn't interested in tasting your satisfied cock because she's found your gay porn cache and wonders where it's been, and it's possible if you show her where it's been she just might want to suck the guy's tongue afterwards. Are you ready for that?

bedipped on October 29, 2011 at 1:12 AM

I voted that he must provide video footage. But I also agree that it's a fake letter...it almost reads like something out of Penthouse Forum .

Cato the Younger Younger on October 29, 2011 at 2:35 AM

Inventing the details makes it easy to get the answer you want.

Aurora Erratic on October 29, 2011 at 3:38 AM

Funny this fascination with the letter being a fake, or not. Maybe it's part of this American cultural thing for having 'the real thing:' either it's 'the real thing' (with money shot to prove it!) or I'm not interested! Bah.

Consider the situation a hypohtetical: a spouse is getting on the side something the other spouse doesn't want to provide (blow-jobs, BDSM, holding hands together and walking in the park, whatever) but hasn't informed said spouse. Is this OK?

In principle, no. I agree with @7 (and @31) above: the straying spouse doesn't get a pass to cheat (and it's cheating) unless the question has been raised with the other spouse, for all kinds of reasons -- that was the default assumption of the relationship, there is the danger of STDs, what is this on-the-side relationship going to become in the long run and how will it affect the main relationship (to say nothing of the children and the impact on them...).

Now, of course, there can be circumstances under which a spouse would have to lie to stay sane (the other spouse says no, no, no after the question is brought up, threatens divorce and refusing contact with children, is totally irrational and unreasonable) -- but he'd have to discuss such situations in his letter. Without further information, the only thing that seems to be happening is that the straying spouse doesn't want the other spouse to know about the cheating -- which is the typical have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too attitude of CPOS's worldwide.

So yes, in the end, I don't see why this husband can't simply be branded a CPOS and told to talk to his wife as soon as possible. Assuming, of course, that said people do exist.

ankylosaur on October 29, 2011 at 4:31 AM

In other words, all the things Dan said in his "I should probably tell you to..." paragraph, which I take to mean Dan understands this is indeed a (prototypical) CPOS situation, since what he mentions are all CPOS-related problems. The absence of the label, I assume, comes simply from the hotness of the situation.

But since I'm neither gay nor a big fan of blow-jobs (they've never done much for me -- they're nice to get, but that's all), this has no effect on me. CPOS it is, IMHO.

ankylosaur on October 29, 2011 at 4:34 AM

As my last comment suggested, it matters whether the letter is a fake, because if it's fiction, the LW can manipulate the details to elicit any response he likes. His wife is the only woman he knows who is bad at head? He's known the trainer for years, an neither of them plan on seeing other guys? The guy is "no-drama?" These details seem designed to make the situation seem sympathetic, and to avoid a response complicated by concerns of harm to the wife. (STDs, ugly scenes, etc.) It's just a wank letter.

But, if it weren't: LW, you are having an affair. Illicit sex often seems hotter than relationship sex, especially when you are realizing a secret desire, such as your sexual feelings for men. Sorry, but any guy who prefers to be blown by a man than his wife, and who is enjoying being blown by a man 4 or 5 times a week, is not quite straight. Suggesting that your wife is bad at blow jobs and refuses to get better, is just a way of saying "It's partly her fault that I am unfaithful.' No, it isn't. You have the perfectly good, if inconvenient, option of telling the truth about your orientation and about your other relationship.
You owe your wife the truth, so she can make an informed decision about how to proceed with her own life.

Aurora Erratic on October 29, 2011 at 4:52 AM

But, Aurora Erratic (@85), what difference does it make if he can elicit the answer he wants? If I present you a hypothetical case in which a person is obviously wrong, and you tell me "yes, s/he is wrong," just as I expected you to do, does it make the person in my hypothetical case any less wrong?

No. Unless you think that actually getting an OK from sloggers somehow excuses people from guilt, so it's a good thing to get it under false pretenses. Does it?

I'm sure that even the letters where people reported their real situation to the best of their knowledge aren't complete, because there certainly are missing facts the LW didn't know or didn't remeber or didn't consider relevant.

A letter from a person who is under no obligation to provide any evidence of truth (as all letters to Dan are) is an opportunity to consider a theoretical situation and discuss its ethical consequences. It frankly doesn't matter whether the letter is true or false, the situation is still interesting and relevant no matter what.

This letter is an example of a larger set of letters about under what circumstances it is or isn't ethically OK to cheat. Given what the letter says, I think it's obvious that it's a situation in which it isn't OK to cheat -- the LW apparently didn't even try talking to his wife about the blow-job situation with his personal trainer, without there being any reason for that in the letter, other than (presumably) losing face.

What difference does it make if details like the ones you mention were designed to elicit sympathy? Dan's advice (or the sloggers' opinions) apply only to the situation as described. If the situation is as such, then that's the advice I would give; if it isn't (as you assume, and you may well be right), then the advice doesn't apply to the LW's real situation, but It still applies to the hypothetical situation the LW presented.

And since short of checking every single LW as thoroughly as possible, we'll never know which situations were fake (but well thought out) and which weren't, then again I ask, what difference does it make?

My feelings for the hypothetical guy in the hypothetical situation that the LW describes don't depend on this hypohtetical guy actually being the LW. If he's the LW's fictional character, my opinion on him is still the same. And since it's impossible for sloggers to really trace every single case to check if it's a fake, then the distinction you want to draw between 'true' letters who 'really' deserve or 'really' don't deserve our sympathy is, in practical terms, moot.

ankylosaur on October 29, 2011 at 5:36 AM

@ankylosaur, you raised the idea that this is like other things the other spouse doesn't want to provide ("blow-jobs, BDSM, holding hands together and walking in the park, whatever").

Since there are a lot of people who would like to get something on the side, we could set up an STD scale of badness, where we distinguish between acts that are likely to bring home STDs (unprotected anal in gay sex clubs); acts that might bring home STDs (using condoms with a mistress who says she's faithful; blowjobs with the otherwise hetero trainer); and acts that are not going to bring home STDs any more than going to the gym would (public flogging at a BDSM club; dressing up like a pony with friends, but no sex; going to a munch; holding hands together and walking in the park).

Of course, STDs are not the only issue, as you say: "what is this on-the-side relationship going to become in the long run and how will it affect the main relationship"?

So we might need another scale for possible drama and public humiliation of the innocent spouse: romantic walks in the park are not likely to stay secret for very long; public flogging at a BDSM club is maybe a little less dangerous, but still risky in the long run. A mistress might turn vengeful and come after the children's pet bunnies.

Me, I'm drawn to the case of the young woman who wanted to go to burner parties and get flogged, despite her boyfriend's disapproval. It seems to me that it scores well on the STD scale (if she knows that for her, floggings won't turn sexual), and it scores well on the drama scale if they both run in personal and professional circles where this is no big deal (ie, she already hangs out at nudist burner parties, so a flogging isn't much of a scandal).

Where her case scores badly, is on the scale of: "is this going to lead to re-evaluating the relationship?" Which is why even such cases should be encouraged to be honest with their partners. See if you can bring them along your new path of exploration with you, and if not, both of you get time to think about what you want out of life... Instead of springing all your realizations about your new identity on your partner at the same time you ask for a divorce...

EricaP on October 29, 2011 at 8:38 AM

50-

Here's what I remembered:

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag…

FightBack69 on October 29, 2011 at 8:38 AM

WHY WHY WHY, indeed, @7. Why on earth did he marry her? WHY do people marry people who fall SO short of any sort of sexual compatibility?

People. Don't marry someone who won't suck your dick, if you like having your dick sucked. The end.

fotini901 on October 29, 2011 at 8:59 AM

i bet it's real.. and it wouldn't be hard to keep from the wife if it's part of your workout time.. and if i was getting that kind of side benefit from my trainer i'm sure i'd work out that many times a week too... my vote was to carry on and send us the video.. on a side note - the fact that you, dan, were overcome by the hotness of the question, made me remember another - did you ever hear back from the woman who was going to have her old dominant fuck buddy teach her new not yet comfortably dominant boyfriend how to use her submissive ass properly? that one was too hot and i wonder still.. and wish there was video.. :)

beckyjoooo on October 29, 2011 at 10:02 AM

@88

As my muse, Eudora Welty, once said, "All stories have been written before. There is nothing new under the sun that hasn't been told." Or something like that, but it was Eudora Welty who made this fact clear to me. We may have West Side Story, but it was written by William Shakespeare with the title of Romeo and Juliette.

Now that the children who taunt Dan with "fake" have moved on to be equally cynical on a range of other subjects, I draw you attention to MrAnk's (@86) well-expressed analysis about the letter writer. It's not merely moot as to whether the LW is real. It also matters very must that this letter is so common, not just here at the Stranger, but virtually everywhere and at all times. Dan has gotten to know his readers so well that he actually *respects* their intelligence. And the thing he is respecting in this instance is that we know that no matter how many times Dan responds to the same issue, it will return to him again, and again, and again with the names changed and the details ever so slightly different.

Dan know we readers already know the answer to this problem, and since we do, and since we know Dan knows we do, he gets playful with us by proposing a mock poll.

We get it.

While Dan gives serious attention the letter writer because, as we all know, somebody out there is paying attention because the are experiencing this *same* set of circumstances, he's also acknowledging his readers for being "in the know" about this stuff by giving them a humorous aside - an obviously bogus poll - to beat the monotony as he understands that letters of this type are *never* going to stop coming to his email in-box.

People want absolution and they want all want it on the *same* things but the only want to pay attention the answer when *they* are bogged down by the problem.

I've been reading letters like this since junior high school in 1966. It doesn't matter if it's authentically new and genuinely the work of the letter writer. It's the story of us all and like any cultural artifact, it has to be taught over and over again for the use of the next group of people who seek confirmation of something they already know, but must hear it said, that they are wrong.

Ray_Harwick on October 29, 2011 at 10:12 AM

@59 - I completely agree with you..but. I've wound up in committed, monogamous relationships a couple of times with people who I loved deeply and who weren't perfect and yes, the 'missing' things are hard to push out of your mind and forget about. @7 has a lot of interesting things to say about this stuff, but it' s not clear to me (having followed her for a while) that her situation is peachy-keen either.

I think there are incompatibilities which might be deal-breakers for one partner or the other - it's easy to imagine that this guy's wife isn't gonna say "gee, honey, what a relief, I don't have to give you that nasty fellatio anymore! You can get it from your DL boyfriend!". Dan has made the observation that he gets invited to poly weddings, but not too many poly anniversary parties. It seems like the essence of 'monogamish' involves a little bit of lying or self-deceit all around; maybe that can be finessed, but I think it ends in real heartbreak more often than not when people can't be in denial somewhat. This guy needs to stop, tell his wife he's really miserable and that she needs to do more - maybe not as much or as well as he'd like, but more.

AFinch on October 29, 2011 at 10:18 AM

@92, "This guy needs to ...tell his wife he's really miserable and that she needs to do more - maybe not as much or as well as he'd like, but more."

Yes. It would be great if Dan had provided some blowjob educational tips. Lubes that don't taste bad, combining blowjobs with a helping hand (by the blower and/or the blowee), deep throating tips, alternatives to swallowing, etc. etc. He has given these tips before, but as Ray said @91, people need to get told the same things over and over again, so they hear it when they are ready for it. Also, SOS has to make himself vulnerable by talking honestly about his desires, rather than trying to manipulate or guilt his wife into sullen blowjobs.

EricaP on October 29, 2011 at 11:54 AM

@73, I want to thank you for that link. And, um, a lot more.

Besides the obvious, there was much humor and wisdom in those threads, and a nice little stroll down memory lane to some times in adolescence through college when there was obvious mutual desire for bro-sex but to follow through would have much more likely caused complete freakouts than it would these days.

rob! on October 29, 2011 at 12:13 PM

HOT!!!!

lilmonster206 on October 29, 2011 at 12:49 PM

Adorably fake. Textbook fake. Insanely fake. BWAHAHAHA fake...

puppydogtails on October 29, 2011 at 1:13 PM

If I was married and my wife had an insatiable appetite for having her pussy licked and I either didn't like doing it or did it but was terrible at it, and she asked me if it was okay if another woman licked her pussy, I'd say "Sure! As long as you come back and tell me all about it."

In previous discussions here, I've seen Sloggettes say that many women allegedly like the idea (or reality) of two men being sexual together so, if that's true, then maybe this guy's wife wouldn't just be okay with it; she'd actually find it hot.

On a tangent...while I don't envy gay men the hassles and scorn they have to deal with from many people in society, and while I'm attracted to women and not guys, I do envy them for having a lot of partners who, I imagine, enthusiastically suck cock. Every woman (with one exception, and I'll never forget her reason: "you pee out of that thing!") I've been intimate with has done it, but only about one-quarter of them were really into it.

Roma on October 29, 2011 at 1:25 PM

31/IHSN: Imagine how you'd feel if your wife were getting her pussy eaten out five times per week by the gardener or the poolboy.

While most guys probably wouldn't like it one bit if their wife was having that done, I'd also say they might not mind (or would even find it hot) if their wife were getting her pussy eaten out five times per week by the gardenness or the poolgirl.

Roma on October 29, 2011 at 1:37 PM

@35 TheOtherWoman: Dunno whether I'd be hot to you (that's a very relative thing), but if you're ever in the west coast of Canada feel free to look me up, as you seem pretty nice :).

Old Crow on October 29, 2011 at 2:26 PM

100

First point: Don't send a woman to do a man's job.

Women are not qualified to suck dick. There are many women out there who swear that they give great head, and many men who will swear that their GF gives the best head in the world. Both groups tend to be naive. The former never had their dicks sucked [1], the latter never had their dicks sucked by a dick-sucking dude.

I've had sex with women who swore that they were complete sex fiends. The head was OK. But 80% of the guys I've been with could do better.

In a utopic world, every straight married guy could have a buddy like this. It just works.

Second point: Honesty is not always the best policy.

I'm a guy that has made clear to women that I will got give up man-on-man sex. I am never married. There are a few women who wouldn't run screaming from that. But "few" is the operant word, and there's a clear supply-and-demand mismatch.

I've known several guys over the years who married women without disclosure, had a man on the side, and had a nice family as a result. In one case, the wife found out and all hell broke loose. They got over it and remained happily married with a happy kid.

If she had known in advance, would she had agreed to marry? Most likely not. Would she have married somebody who would have been more faithful? Possibly, I guess... but I would tend to doubt it. Being lied to gave her a good outcome in life.

Third point: This guy is writing sex columnists. He will not be able to keep the secret.

on October 29, 2011 at 3:32 PM

101

EricaP (@87), it's possible to get all theoretical about real-life situation and to try to evaluate things along well-defined scales. I've tried doing that a couple of times; and I've always been proven wrong by reality, in the sense that there always something happening that, by my scientific scales, should be one thing (say, OK) but yet clearly was another (say, very risky / exploitative / manipulative / whatever). As they say, the eternal tragedy of science: a beautiful theory slain by an ugly fact. :-)

Mr Harwick (@88), I indeed agree. Even though by now Dan could probably refer back to advice he gave on equivalent cases before ('just read my column of XX/XX/XXXX and take the advice I gave to XXX there!'), I agree that the importance of repeating things -- especially things the LW might not want to hear -- is true. I understand that (especially for the veteran Sloggers) it's more interesting when a new, still unheard-of case shows up (the story may have been written before, but hey, maybe neither Dan nor any of us read its previous incarnations) for discussion and consideration. But it's also good to know what the frequent things are -- typical cases like partners-with-unmatched-libido, or I've-found-my-hubby's/daddy's/uncle's/son's-porn-stash-and-I'm-freaking-out, or how-can-I-get-my-partner-to-do-X, or should-I-tell-my-friend-X(say, that his GF/BF is cheating on him)...

It's interesting how these relationship-oriented cases slowly but surely replaced the earlier number of letters about 'strange kinks' or 'stupid situations' or 'advice with practice X' ('What's the right way to tie someone up?' 'Is drinking urine bad for your health?' 'How can I enter the sex industry?' etc.). Maybe as Dan (and his readers/LWs) matured, questions moved away from sexual mechanics (= practices) and onto sexual dynamics (= relationship). Maybe the question 'how can people (want to) stay together despite their human frailties and quirks?' is ultimately more interesting than 'how can I do this sex act?', I don't know.

ankylosaur on October 29, 2011 at 4:56 PM

102

wow.

on October 29, 2011 at 8:45 PM

103

really, wow.
I had no idea my question would result in this... thread.
i feel like the shithead and perfectly fine about it all at once.
– sex lives change over time, especially ours
- we've talked endlessly about head, she's not into it.
- she's turned off and close minded about guys into guys, semi-convservative and no way would she entertain the idea.
– when we have sex it's amazing, we're very into each other
– she simply hates head, it's never been a good experience
– trainer is a friend, but didn't want to introduce that dynamic into a question about physicality
– bottom line is i'm satisfying both our crazy hungers, he'll tell me when he wants out, and we're both lucky to have something safe.

and no. this wasn't fake.

on October 29, 2011 at 8:51 PM

SL Letter of the Day: Cock the Vote

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