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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
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If this keeps happening, try to choose from a different pool of men the next time, because this is not a normal response from well-adjusted men. They don't have to be into the idea, but actively treating you poorly because you shared the same fantasy they have for you, after they've already shared yours is what makes them a poor choice that'll bleed into other aspects of your relationship.
He should never try to shame you for your fantasies. I would advise dumping him, because this response shows so little respect or true affection for you, but if you want to give him another chance, or for the next bf, I suggest couching the request with some established ground rules, one of which can be that the men have erotic contact exclusively with you. That should help reassure the bf that you're not interested in seeing him do anything he perceives as gay and lets him no that the other guy isn't going to try to "make him do 'gay things'" (of course, it needs to be understood that some inadvertent m/m touching may occur and not to freak out over it).
I question this assumption. Were I, a straight man, to fantasize about an FFM threeway, it most certainly would have some "lesbo" aspects to it. Maybe some more communication on the issue could assuage his concerns/assumptions.
Other than that totally agree with Dan.
So a MMF is both scary from the 'will I have to touch another dude' perspective and from the discomfort at another dude touching 'your' girl. I think both are somewhat natural and normal reactions for many otherwise good guys.
Now healthy mature open adults talk with their partners about these issues, work through them, develop ground rules, start slow, etc. Douchebags or immature types react like the guy in the letter with insults and a complete shut down of communication. His problem is not his discomfort, but the way he is handling it.
He seems judgmental and controlling and homophobic and misogynistic.
But that letter-arrangement issue brings up the need to be specific and discuss in explicit detail what both partners' expectations are before embarking on either a threesome or any other new, non-vanilla experience. You need to identify and define what your own expectations are (do I want a little M/M action or F/F action or do I want only Ms touching Fs and only Fs touching Ms?) and then you need to check in and make sure that what you want works for your partner, too. And if the M/M or F/F part doesn't work for him/her, it's back to the drawing board.
Give me a good MMM threeway any day, and you can arrange those M's anyway you damn well please- I know I do!
Kudos to Dan for giving actual helpful advice on what to do after D'ing TMF.
That said, even as a gay man, I don't think his aversion to an MMF three-way is really homophobic. Maybe homosqueamish? It's okay for him to not be down be down with the MMF threeway as long as he doesn't make her feel bad about wanting it. And he shouldn't feel put out if she makes a MFF conditional on him agreeing to a MMF threeway. But I personally think the term homophobic is a little strong in this context.
I have a straight friend who is super gay-friendly (most of his jobs have been in gay bars, a large percentage of his friends are gay, and he often finds himself in situations where he's the only straight guy hanging out with a bunch of gay guys, and he's totally fine about that. But he's not very adventurous, sexually, and I certainly wouldn't consider him to be homophobic for not being down with a MMF threeway. (That said, while I'm sure he wouldn't say yes to doing it, I also don't think he'd treat his GF as a freak for suggesting it.)
As far as dating men closer to her age goes... if the letter writer's thing is older men, she should keep with that. There are plenty of older men who would be interested in the occasional MMF threesome, just bring it up early -- even hypothetically with a mention of a female "friend" who is interested, rather than the letter writer -- to sound the guy out before wasting six months.
On that note, ditch the old man and find a bi guy closer to your age, NAS! Or at any rate find a straight boy who's more open-minded.
Good point about the dual nature of his insecurity. It's probably a combination of both those things that are fueling his response.
And not that I'm in any way defending him, but I just re-read the letter, and the lw identifies herself as a "mostly straight female" whose bf wants a MFF threesome (by her description). She says that she told him that she doesn't have a problem with that and that this is a true statement. So considering that she has described herself as at least somewhat bi (what else can "mostly straight" mean?) it's reasonable to conclude that her bf's suggested MFF threesome includes girl/girl and that she's alright with that. From his point of view, although she says that her reason for wanting what she calls a MMF is that she "want[s] to be with two men at once," it is likely for him to conclude that she wants from him something like the equivalent of what he wants from her, that is to say, some same-sex action. But while that would work for her, since she's bi (or bi-ish--later she calls herself "straight"), it doesn't work for him, who is emphatically straight.
Just doing a little devil's advocating, here.
All 3 know I'm gay, and all 3 seemingly have no problem with it, but not one of them would consider a MMF with another straight man... ever. I have tried (gently) to point out their hypocrisy on the issue, but no... it just "ain't gonna happen," as one of them is so quick to say.
I give. They know that I'm not volunteering for duty, but nonetheless, they absolutely refuse to be in a bed with another naked straight man.
The best part of the whole story is that two of them are constantly swapping porn tapes and web links to their favorite x-tube vids. And, (ta da!) more often than not, the link is of a single female being gang-banged by 5 or more men. Hilarious!
Or, in some cases, sexual orientation. My girlfriend is a MTF transgender Lesbian who still will, once in a while, exclaim, "I have a BOYFRIEND!" since it's still a pretty new idea to her. But we worked it out, I'm like a Kinsey 1-2,she's about a Kinsey 4-5, so we mostly just walk around town oogling girls.
Three ways aren't for everyone, but there's no excuse for non-GGG double-standards.
Younger guys are way more insecure about themselves. If she finds a younger guy who isn't worried about incidental or intentional homo contact in an MMF, he'll be worried that she prefers the other M.
Just find a gentleman, at whatever age.
P.S. Anyone, male or female, who uses the terms "whore" or "slut" in a non-embracing way is automatic DTMFA in my book.
@24 might the fact that your lady was super excited about the impending threesome help you 'come' to terms with this situation?
@16 all valid points, but wouldn't you expect your girlfriend to feel slightly threatened that you might be more into the other woman in a FMF threesome too? Possibly even more of a threat to women considering how insecure a lot of women can be, particularly about their bodies and sexuality.
Just as long as I get confirmation that the other guy isn't into me, it is established that him and I aren't going to swap spit, I won't do DP, and the girl has to sleep in the middle the "not gay" part was never a problem.
It was the post sex part where shit went really wrong.
The guy in the letter was a dick and she should DTMFA.
I am not justifying the response as much as saying that our culture and society creates it and we are all products of it. And that society and culture is more tolerant of "I kissed a girl" than "I kissed a boy".
Part of that as well is that women, more than men, are expected to be accommodating sexually. So going along with a threesome is more expected of women, despite their insecurities, than men. Not right, but very real.
That and the fact that boys do not get to 'go wild' and part of being a boy is having possession over your girl.
I guess what I am saying is that decent people recognize the reality of their and their partner's inculteration and work on it, whereas non-decent people respond with insults and revulsion. Expecting everyone to be enlightened and free of gendered behavior is unrealistic but we can at least expect that people acknowledge it and work on it.
I've had several bfs who bring up the idea of a FFM threeway. I'm always happy to oblige, so long as there's no direct or intentional F/F action (I once tried, but I'm a straight-up Kinsey 1, and it was not arousing AT ALL to me). In each case, the men were hoping for F/F as part of the whole experience, but were perfectly fine settling for a straight encounter, in which they get access to two women. I've mentioned MFM threeways and usually have been met with conditional approval--conditioned on the men having no contact with each other. Since that was not part of what I find especially arousing, I was happy to accommodate that request. And I've been lucky enough to have had a couple of boyfriends who have brought up a MFM threeway, because they want to share me or watch another man with me, but not in a cuckhold way.
Still the widespread assumption that even the straightest of women should be willing to have a sexual interaction with another woman as part of her boyfriend-requested FFM, without the man even being willing to entertain a MFM smacks of serious selfishness, on a wholesale level.
yes it does
As for a compromise: get this guy a blowup doll and dump his ass. That's what he probably wants anyway.
After years of him recoiling in disgust, and me shrugging and making the sad face, and considering the conversation done, he's willing to go for the MFM -- he must really want that extra girl. But at no point did the words slut or whore (or even inferences of such) come into the equation. NAS needs to make tracks, and don't look back.
She also needs to step away from the exclamation point.
D-D-DTMFA!
If that's truly your opinion, I find myself baffled as to what would entice you to this particular blog in the first place. MFM threesome fantasies are quite tame, especially compared to some of the other kinky stuff that gets happily discussed here. Thinking you're either a troll, a self-hating kinkster, or some terrible combination thereof. Either way, blow it out your ass.
same reason people go to the circus
And to think that Ms Erica didn't seem to get my point that perhaps straight-oriented three-ways and gay-oriented three-ways were so different in nature as to make it much more difficult for those coming from opposite perspectives to have sufficient common ground to discuss them with any understanding...
For serious.
One of the things I love about being a human is that I can be surprised at what turns me on. I'm a gay boy, but I think that in the right circumstances... (because we're all human after all).
How does this boy feel about his asshole being played with (by m or f)?
I'm not a huge fan of the lw either--all! those!
exclamation! points!!--but she deserves better than being shamed for having the mirror image desires as her boyfriend.
Now, why do I read "Recently he opened up to me" as meaning she initiated the kink conversation and it took him some time to be willing to even participate? For some reason this just smacks of "Oh, come on, I'll let you do X if you then let me do Y" where her desire for Y is the true driving force behind the conversation.
Granted, he sounds insecure. From here it sounds like the gay panic defense is actually a mask for feeling insecure that NAS's desire to indulge this fantasy isn't a step on the way to replacing him. That is how I read "Any attempt to include another man would signal the end of our relationship, he informed me." That is the reaction of someone who feels that wanting another person enough to actually bring them in means you no longer want him all that much.
In other words, from here it sounds to me like he is fundamentally monogamous, that he talked some fantasy talk just to participate in a conversation, and now he is having that conversation turned against him so that Letter Writer can use that as leverage to get what she wants out of him.
I can think of three or four guys I would have absolutely NO problem having a threesome with my girlfriend with. Hell, I kinda wanna see them naked anyways.
If she's down with FFM, then if he's gonna ask for it, and she wants MMF (MFM, however you wanna phrase it), then he should at least think long and hard about it.
Besides. It's another c*ck. You don't have to TOUCH it if it squicks you out that much, but c'mon, you've probably showered with guys, you've SEEN that others exist in the universe.
Date younger men, and this 'horror of being contaminated with gay germs' will be less likely to prevent you from getting your fantasy realized.
Out of sheer curiosity -- addressing the LW or any other woman here in SLOG who also wanted an MMF threesome but was dismayed by her partner's reaction -- don't the guys ever react to the clear inconsistency in their reactions: MFF threesome no-gay = good, MMF threesome yes-gay = bad? Doesn't it bother them in the slightest?
For the record, I agree there is nothing wrong in principle with not liking MMF (or MFM or FMM) threesomes; it's just a matter of taste. It's how you handle the request by another person that makes you a douchebag, or a considerate human being.
Personally, if a woman was in an exclusive relationship with me and wanted sex all the time, I'd never call her "slut", I'd call her "my treasure" (and have).
Peace.
Finally, here is one 40-something guy who would jump at a chance to be in someone like NAS's life, and willingly explore whatever fantasies she might want to explore.
Over the years this attitude has softened, to the point that male bisexuality in swinging, though still maybe a bit underground in some circles, is far more accepted. If anything, someone suggesting it is more likely to get a polite, "no thanks, not for me" as opposed to what used to be the case: "OMG you disgusting pervert, get out of our club and never come back".
And further, I have found the transition led more by the 40ish crowd, who are presumably more comfortable with themselves, than the 20-somethings, who still seem very concerned about how masculine others might view them to be.
Plus, I'm a mid-forties straight-ish guy, and while I do find the idea of two men and a woman exceedingly hot, it's not because I like penis. The idea of a woman getting it from two guys at once is just insanely hot - for the purely het action involved!
Why is there such injustice in statistics? Why do all the unicorns wind up with the wrong people?
I can totally understand, hetero men are territorial when it comes to the women they date. Grrrrrr, bark! bark! Sperm competition! That's nature for you, good luck unwiring it with words.
The boyfriend is still a douche though. Don't ask for a FFM if you can't handle MMF and never think your girl is anything but hot for having fantasies of her own.
With some people, but she specifies that this is not the case.
I won't say that's not a possibility, but we're arguing from the position laid out, not the position you want to hear. She hasn't really indicated anything that would make that more likely than what was presented. She said "Recently he opened up to me about having a threesome down the road, whenever we are both comfortable.", so you're automatically assuming without any specific evidence that she is lying about his initiating the discussion.
But another issue: Regarding accusations of hipocracy or homophobia leveled at straight guys who are game for a MFF encounter but not for a MFM one; that's ridiculous. Now, getting mad about the suggestion of one, or making your partner feel bad from bringing it up, or demanding your female partner indulge you MFF whims even though she's not into it while not consider that she might want the inverse... then there's a problem.
But it's totally unfair to label a guy "homophobic" just because they have zero interest in a sexual encounter involving another naked guy.
I am also going to point out this isn't necessarily age related -- some men are simply POS ( and insecure bigots ) and others aren't -- at any age. I've found men in their 50's perfectly open to an MMF threesome.
I was going to point out that both fantasies are equivalent, though I'd think that there's a homosexual element present in both of them. This depends on the interaction of the partners, of course, but quite frankly I'd *want* to see everyone participating with each other in any three way I was in, not have two ignore each other. Ugh, boring. And also quite frankly, the pervasive male fantasy of MFF *does indeed* include FF action ( that nutbag who started beating up on the two FF b/c they weren't paying attention to *him* notwithstanding ) so there should be every reason to expect a little MM action in MMF.
But certainly the terms of engagement can be negotiated between the three to everyone's satisfaction beforehand. Other restrictions could include who can actually penetrate who, that kind of thing, without precluding any same sex contact altogether.
I kind of like the notion of using MMF vs MFM to denote this kind of difference, but I must say I myself have not come across that convention so far.
However, the big reason I read it differently is the phrase "Any attempt to include another man would signal the end of our relationship, he informed me." To me, that is unequivocal, and it is not the response of someone scared of the implications of HIM touching another dick. All he would have to do is avoid touching it. The idea that introducing another man would destroy the relationship is the response of someone who is fundamentally threatened by the idea of HER touching another dick.
In context of this, the phrase "Recently he opened up to me about having a threesome down the road, whenever we are both comfortable." seems by far the more ambiguous of the two.
But again, that's just what leaped out at me from the letter. I don't intend to argue that has to be the correct interpretation. Wouldn't mind a bit if the Letter Writer could chime in with a clarification, though.
BTW, is there a functional difference between FFM and MFF? The difference between FFM and FMF seems pretty obvious (who is "in the middle"). But the other two seem to be permutations of the same thing.
Also, the whole letters-with-significant-placement thing seems to imply a V rather than a triangle. This seems unfortunate to me. Being the object of attention of two lovers sounds nice, but the idea that they wanted nothing to do with each other sounds kind of awkward and mood-killing. I can't imagine asking my wife be incredibly intimate with me while simultaneously maintaining a strict arm's-length distance from another person who was being equally intimate with me. Sounds unpleasant for her. (Or for me, if I was the one on one of the ends of the V.)
I can assure you that there are men who will enthusiastically participate in virtually any combination of multiple partner sex with any boundaries of homo/hetero interaction. I'll just pop back in time to when I was single and in your age range...
You don't give details about what the fellas are up to in your fantasy. That would have gone a long way to helping us understand your situation.
You're selectively quoting that to ignore the aforementioned indicators "he informed me, and that my fantasy crosses the line into homosexuality! I have never acted on this fantasy, probably because the reaction I get from the men I have felt comfortable enough to tell typically goes this way. Once again this fantasy of mine has landed me in the catagory of a whore! I am not a whore! I want my boyfriend to know there is nothing "homo".
Someone who is "fundamentally monogamous" doesn't generally try to ask about threesomes "down the road", regardless, unless you're using some different definition of "fundamentally" than I'm used to.
But I do think that a guy who answers not simply "no thanks, I don't like that, it does nothing for me", but "NO WAY!!! WHO DO YOU THINK I AM?" or some other emotionally laden answer is giving signs of homophobia. Not because he doesn't like the idea of another naked guy, but because he reacts to the proposition as if it were a deep offense to his masculinity that someone would even suggest the possibility. That I think is not caused simply by not liking MMF (or MFM or FMM) threesomes.
Unless, of course, you WANTED him to call you a slut and a whore!
So I'm all for DTMFA, simply because of his reaction.
That said - WTF!! Dan? Since when is late 30s elderly? Guess what, I'm in my mid 50s and MY DICK STILL WORKS! Go figure.
Back to the LW - I've been in many MFM and MFMF and larger group sex situations and yes, I did end up touching male parts, but, nope I didn't find myself wanting to suck dick nor did I grab the lube and spread my ass cheeks and neither did the other guys involved. But, maybe I'm just a bit more comfortable about my heterosexuality than her BF is.
My experiences with MFM started with my wife's request. The mind blowing orgasms she had were worth every accidental dick, testicle, and ass touch I ever experienced. For her I'd make those touches deliberate if she asked me. So NAS, that's the difference - go find that guy who will do anything you asked and if he can't he won't (or can't), he won't foist his insecurities off on you. Go find Mr. right, or Ms. right, Mr. and Ms. right, or Mr. and Ms. and Mr. right, etc....
As for the larger issue, I call bullshit on all you hipsters condemning him.
Imagine if a guy wrote in saying this same stuff. (Leave out the hysterial "slut/whore" bid for sympathy; it is a distraction here, it seems.) "Hey, I am willing to have a guy in bed, and I am 'mostly straight'. But my straight girlfriend, who is into a threeway with a guy, curls her lip and refuses to consider letting me invite a girl to join us. She calls it sick, and is repulsed by the idea of a woman being in bed with her. Unfair!"
My guess is there would be much shrugging, and many of the same people here would leap on the characterization of the guy as "mostly straight" and point out that he sounds kinda into guys, therefore, and what works one way here won't work the other way.
So am I the only one wondering if Ms. "mostly straight", as she put it, has not indicated interest in women in the past? And if so, the dude, quite reasonably said, "Hey, if you want, feel free to invite a female playmate into bed!" Note the absence, in that scenario, of HIM similarly saying, "I also dig the idea of getting naked for sexual antics in the presence of other men."
In sum, she allowed for her sexual interest in women. He offered to accomodate, in a way that most guys would, frankly--with him getting some too. (?) She then says, "How about you doing something that grosses you out, in return?" Uh, no, that grosses him out.
Mr. Savage once called bullshit on a poly bi-woman who felt that it was fair that her sleeping only with other women meant her straight BF could only have sex with other men (despite his zero interest in gay sex. That may be analogous to this circumstance. She is into women, and this guy may be accomodating something she is into (women), but that does not require him to accomodate her by doing things he is not into.
Put another way, being GGG does not require a straight man to get naked in bed with other men. Nope. Nor would it require a woman who detests getting naked in bed with other women do so.
"He's a straight man and he wants to be with two girls at once. I'm a straight woman and I want to be with two men at once!"
No, you are a MOSTLY straight woman who wants to be with two men at once. Did you forget that you used the word "mostly" right up there in the first sentence? That does make a material difference. If you are "mostly" straight, you are okay with the idea of getting busy with another woman. If you are simply "straight" rather than "mostly straight" then your enthusiasm will be less, or possibly nonexistent. If he is simply a "straight man" rather than a "mostly straight man" then it is reasonable for him to have a greater aversion to a proposed MMF than you do to a proposed FFM, as he is, according to your wording, straighter than you are.
There are other things about the wording of the letter that don't quite add up, but that later, only if necessary.
85, yup. That was my point.
86, you did not respond to my point. You changed the hypothetical further to avoid the point: Her self-description as "mostly" straight seems to allow for some interest in women on her part. That is in her letter. If so, she may not feel the visceral disgust he does at equivalent acts involving same sex participants.
And all this EWWWW! he is a asshole bigot is way, way off base given what was said here even by the letterwriter.
I would find a male form in bed with me during sexual activity to be repulsive. If there is a straighter than straight designation on the Kinsey scale, that is me. And if my S/O suggested it when I was 22 (or now), I would likely have looked at her like she just puked on me. Does that make me homophobic?
For you Sloggers leaping to earn your Diversity Champion Merit Badge on this issue, consider that my sense of disgust did not keep me from literally sharing a bed with my gay friend from childhood when we traveled in Mexico. I have zero interst in fucking my gay friend, who is closer to me than my own brother, but sleeping next to him was a total non-issue for me. Think on whether *you* guys are the ones bringing weird bigoted baggage into a discussion of a straight guy's simply stated sexual preference.
(Also, letterwriter should be slapped for her over-use of exclamation points. I am sure we can all agree on that.)
Just because he is into MFF threeways does not demand that he must also be into MMF threeways. People have buttons, those push his in an unpleasant way, not a fun way. Likewise, a gal who wants to peg her boyfriend is not obligated to take it up the ass in trade. If he digs the pegging, and she does, there is no Thou Shalts she must do what she doesn't like, even if he does like it.
Note also that he opened up to me about having a threesome down the road, whenever we are both comfortable. Him, another female, and her. She told him that SHE DIDN'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT. [Please note!]
The problem was her threesome fantasy: her, him, and another male. She recieved the same reacton from this man as she did from my most recent ex: disgust and revulsion.
Pay attention to that, because it is almost certainly hardwired, folks, just like being gay, straight, or whatever. Not a "oh, you will get over it, buddy" situation: most straight dudes are not into having another dude in bed with them. This guy is one of them.
If you guys want other people to accept sexuality in all its facets and splendor--gay, straight, whatever--you need to stop making up fucking rules for other people and condemning them for not satisfying your rules. That is what the fundamentalist assholes do.
If a MMF is what she needs, go find the guy who will give her one. Quit trying to bitch about this guy, who simply doesn't want to do things that disgust him. Nothing wrong with that. Same rule for gals, right? If HE was writing in bitching about HER not wanting to do a MFF, everyone would condemn him, I am sure, as an ass demanding things that disgust her.
GGG does not mean you can expect to leave your partner feeling sick during sex.
If you want to see two girls fuck and get horrified at the idea of having another guy in the bedroom and throw nasty language over to your woman, you're a doucher.
Especially when he's asking her to basically do the same thing in reverse.
As for the "mostly straight" stuff - yeah, I unfortunately missed that the first time I read the letter, and didn't see it until I posted that comment! My mistake! Still, my point stands that you can still be a Kinsey 0 even if you're not completely grossed out by the idea of doing it with someone of the same sex.
Whether he is either a) a homophobe and a hypocrite for eagerly wanting the very thing for himself that disgusts him when his girlfriend asks for the equivalent, or b) a monogamist who's panicking over being talked into making her fantasy real, and flailing and throwing out anything he can think of, is somewhat open to debate. But in the end, it doesn't really matter. Letter Writer wants the MMF, she is going to have to go find a boyfriend who wants it too. She writes to Dan asking "how can I get him to see it my way?" Short answer is, you don't. This happens to be his "fetish too far," and forcing the issue with the current boyfriend is going to blow up in her face.