Savage being crucified for the threesome suggestion in 3...2...1...
She could have at least sent the pix or a link to the video.
@1, allow me to be the first to say that I think that threesome sounds like a pretty good idea and the would-be crucifiers are just haters. Stop hatin', haters.
I think HA is mainly pissed that it wasn't a threesome in the first place ;)
I think it's ominous that boyfriend was fucking his BEST FRIEND, and if I were HA, that's what would be freaking me out.
Crucified? No. But it's not very smart, either. Remember that part about "both he and the best friend agreed at that time that it was a horrible mistake that would never happen again, that it was detrimental to their friendship and explosive for their respective relationships?" That means it's not gonna happen, and probably shouldn't happen.
Okay, I'll be Miss Negativity. If the two BFFs had actually discussed this and decided "it was a horrible mistake that would never happen again" -- he would have deleted the fucking evidence. If the only thing your boyfriend has confessed to is the stuff you found proof of... I'll bet there's more that he's not telling.

So, if I were you, HA, I'd consider the possibility that your boyfriend and the Gimp have been fucking all along. And are still lying to you. If you consider that, and would still stick around, let them know, and you can process accordingly.
There should be a Savage Love reader ass-off. Readers submit pictures of their partner's ass (diff. divisions for boy/girl???), Slog poll votes on the best.

I would totes submit my boyfriend's ass. It is magnificent.
I'm with Erica - most experimenting straight guys wouldn't choose their best friend. And they wouldn't be kinky right off the bat. There's more to this story you don't know about, LW.
I think Erica's got a good point there.

And Dan, where was your MIND when you recommended that threesome? It's fine for you to post your fantasies -- post away; we'll read 'em -- but they have no place in your answers to people who are hurting and looking for advice.
I kind of assumed that HA was a gay guy, not a baffled girlfriend. S/He did chalk the pics up to "gay guys playing around," after all.
@8: Would that be "identify as boy" / "identify as girl"?
I also assumed HA was a gay guy -- not that it changes anything in the ethics of the situation, though.

I see the point of those saying that not having deleted the video/photos suggests something may still be going on -- but if HA is a guy, then his boyfriend's little adventure was not 'a straight guy experimenting', but something more within the confines of gay culture. Would that change you guys' expectations?
man ..if HA isn't a gay man then she has a LOT more things to be concerned about than this..
These are gay guys, it wasn't about "experimenting". And yes, I'm with EricaP that the boyfriend is still fucking the BFF. Or at least, still very much wants to. The boyfriend and BFF agreed it would be explosive for their respective relationships because they knew that's how the LW would respond - and LW proved them right.

Who knows - the boyfriend and BFF may have been really disciplined these few months and have chosen relationship above hot sex with each other, and they may even be able to continue doing so. But this virtuous choice comes at the cost of dousing that particular desire - and yes, it may be a cost that the boyfriend is willing to pay. But - as Dan advised - the reward for LW to join in a threesome or foursome is much more and will pay dividends to his own relationship with the boyfriend.
LW is male. He sees picture of Gimp's cock in boyfriend's mouth and "even at this point I'm still crazily willing to chalk it up to gay boys playing around."
I agree with Erica and Lance - the description of those pictures and video don't sound like a one-time event to me. I think there is more going on and would guess the boyfriend and best friend have been carrying on for quite a while.

An ass-off is an EXCELLENT idea! I won't be sending any pics in, but would love to see the ones that are submitted!
@8 yes if there are catergories it would be how people choose to idenify themselves???? I dunno I'm not running this contest and also drunk
So, is it often a big problem in the gay community to have best friends that are of the same sex (and I assume occasionally develop feelings for the best friend)? It seems that this could lead to lots of situations such as that described in the first letter.
I think the situation is as ambivalent as the sexuality of the letter writer, it could go either way. HA may not have the guarantee that the BFF has to remain in the partner's life. HA should go forward in the relationship, but have plans to be ready when the two BFFs are at it again. HA feels insecure, abused, and angry because that is where HA's partner has placed him/her; no drop dead break off to secure the presumably primary relationship.

Personally I wouldn't want to live with that kind of abuse.

HA dump the CPOS, and get sane before you start over with someone that will either be truthful about their entanglements, or learn to put their partner's feelings first.

Is the BFF extremely kinky? Do people have extra rubber suits just lying around? Are tight rubber suits one size fits all?

In other words, was this a serious investment from your bf or was this a whimsical spur of the moment "oooo, rubber looks and feels good" moment that went too far?

I have exhibitionist and photographer friends where the shoots started out as shoots but soon went too far. No, I wasn't dating any of them at the time of their stories.

But, it depends on who's rubber suit it is...

Is this the best you could do for a warm uplifting Valentine's day smutfest letter? I know you've been busy, but sheesh...


PS: Speaking as a hetero, yes a nice tear jerking gay love forever letter would do.
Sorry, HA, but if your BF is that into his BFF, you're already #3. They're CPOS's, DTMF's before they dump you.

I'm going to join the chorus to say that if you have time to set up a camcorder and wrap your best friend in full-body latex (and then stop, unwrap your best friend, and then have the best friend wrap you!), you've got time to step back and go, "Hey, actually, I really think we should stop; my boy/girl/whateverfriend would really be upset about this." And keeping the evidence around is either hubris or double the dickitude. The boyfriend's a CPOS, and if I were the LW, I'd dump him.
Yes! Ass-off!! (sounds like a cleaning product, but I'll try to forget that).
Pictures to get us through the rest of winter, please.
@21 for the win!
dan- do you read/respond to these comments? what is the best way for us to connect?! check me out:…
No way LW is a woman.
HA, good for you for dealing with your boyfriend's affair like a mature adult instead of a toddler, or even worse, a heterosexual.

I really love your letter - you come off as smart, emotionally intelligent, funny, and secure. Things are gonna work out for you one way or the other.

And GYN, you are hilarious and awesome. I'm dying to know what kind of shit comes out of your mouth. I've never actually called a sex line before, but if I had your number I'd call you.

Great letters, Dan, they made my day.
Re. the abundance of rubber suits: very good point! Rubber suits that aren't made to order crumple and sag horribly, good for sexy times but definitely not Artsy Photography-worthy. Or else these guys have generically hot bodies that look good in store-bought rubber suits.

This is my totally imagined, inappropriate reading of the unspoken backstory: I get the vibe that these are 20-somethings power-gay aspirants, money to throw around (vacations, photography), mimic slutty gay culture (rubber suits hung neatly alongside Lagerfelds for some street cred), but actually forged their values in very well-appointed neighbourhoods where the world falls apart without heterosexist monogamy - being gay notwithstanding. Very rational about conducting their lives - discussions, agreements, forgivenesses - but their dicks betray them.

Bitchy, prejudicial, inappropriate, projecting, I know... But it might explain the availability of rubber suits. Not that it makes HA's anger & sense of betrayal less real or valid. But I think a world where the imperative to fuck overrides worries about lying fornicators is a better place.
My guess is the relationship is doomed. The writer is angry at the BF and friend - with reason - and the BF is not contrite enough. Why won't he distance himself from Gimp-boy for a while until things calm down? Least he could do. What he wants in fact are that there are no real consequences and responsibility apart from waiting until the writer gets over it. He is choosing the friends' feelings over his BF. The friend was not an innocent.

I am sex positive, but this was no random drunken meaningless roll in the hay. This was premeditated, costumes and sets, cameras, possibly lighting and for all we know there was a director!

@31: Nah, it was just an art photo shoot that got a little carried away.
Is it just me, or are the letters better when they start with gender and orientation?

When they don't, I spend half the letter just trying to figure out who is who. Maybe it shouldn't matter, but I just feel differently when it is two dudes vs two women vs one of each.

With two guys I usually come down on the "you realize you are dealing with a guy, right?" side of things. With two women (which really seems not to come up much around here) it is more like "perhaps you should talk, you know, like women." With one of each it usually about bridging the cultural divide in a way that isn't the case with two of the same sex.

I just like it better when I can know whether to be inclined more towards bridging the divide vs "more fucking will probably solve that" vs "more talking with probably solve that."
I agree with Dan in that the three or four of them should get together and fuck. Worst case, LW and BF's relationship would destruct, but if so then it was doomed anyway. However, if LW gets some action too, it is possible his jealousy may dissipate. Since they are all guys, you can't really look at this situation as you would a male/female infidelity situation.
Jeez, I feel stupid now. LW probably is a guy. That doesn't change things completely, but it does put a different spin on it. I agree with #33 (and others) that there are some inherent (or at least very common) differences between het couples, gay male couples, and lesbian couples. No fair making us have to guess! Then some of us (*ahem*, tugs collar) end up looking like doofuses.
Shorter HA:
I caught my boyfriend cheating and he plans to stay friends with his accomplice. What do I do with my anger?

Forgive him or DTMFA. Forgiveness is very powerful but don't continue to be a cuckold if that's not your thing. It's you or the BFF. Someone's got to go or your anger will fester.
#36 is right: stripped of all the accessories (rubber suits, progression of poses, etc.) this is what the situation boils down to.

"Was it a one-time thing or had it been happening for a while?" "Is it still going on?" "Do I trust that my boyfriend is telling me the whole truth?"--these weren't even questions HA asked in his letter. They may make a difference to him or they may not. But the crux of the matter is he's angry and doesn't want to forgive (really) either of them, and they continue to stay friends.

If you re-read the letter, HA doesn't want to forgive the boyfriend's friend--the accomplice (Gimp)--with whom he (HA) has become friends over the years. And he (HA) is feeling pressure (coming mostly, it seems, from himself) to forgive this guy.

That might not be possible, and HA should let himself off the hook. But the problem then becomes this:
For trust reasons, one potential way to help HA regain his trust in his boyfriend would be for the boyfriend and Gimp to not have "alone time," but to do things as a threesome with HA (and I don't mean sex). But seeing Gimp really gets HA angry and stirs up the whole betrayal all over again for him. So that isn't a good idea. This is a five-year relationship and it seems like maybe it should take priority. Maybe the boyfriend should cool down his friendship, if his relationship matters to him.
I'm 100% with @7. If the BF and his BFF decided it was a terrible idea that could ruin their relationship/s... I cannot imagine any reason in the world to keep those pictures.

But then, I mean, I can't imagine any reason in the world to HAVE pictures of oneself cheating on one's partner of five years. Like. Doing the thing that could mess up what are theoretically your two most important relationships, with your partner and your BFF, is already showing an assload of poor judgement. Documenting it, making evidence of it, seems almost self-sabotaging. Relationship suicide.

Now, if BF had had some excuse about using these pics, ahem, commercially, I might have believed that he had ANY GOOD REASON to keep them. (Scrambling for excuses for him here.) In any case, my take is that this guy is either (a) dumb as rocks, (b) trying to sabotage his LTR, or (c) both.
@7 @38 Agreed. People don't normally keep photographic evidence/footage of "terrible mistakes" saved on your HD. I'm surprised Dan just went with it.
*saved on THEIR HD. Oh well.
Thanks for the Hulk reference!
Just one thing: @Lilliable - I don't know why I find your avatar so ridiculously hot. Is that Ann Landers or a cross dresser?
@35: there are some inherent (or at least very common) differences between het couples, gay male couples

Yes - the difference is that gay men are years ahead of heterosexuals in their attitudes towards sex. We're catching up, though.
@33: well, there is the gender thing, but before we bring in the planets of the solar system, in HA's case it's not just because he's a gay guy. It's that he sounds as if he does things out of expectations and rules, not because he wants to.
1. Have a discussion about relationship rules: because when we both agree to the rules, we're all happy happy.
2. Be GGG: "I'm totally willing to get rubbered up for you".
3. Forgive the boyfriend: make this a teachable moment about how you could be a better sexual partner, "maybe I inadvertently made it taboo".
4. Let the boyfriend keep the BFF because you don't want to be possessive: "I can feel the need to forgive him pressing on me."

"Something that we have actually discussed and both agreed that we would be willing to bring a third in but not seek sex outside the relationship." - It so ... theoretical.

There's a pattern of doing stuff because he's been told to, because he's expected to, because that is the right-thing-to-do. His ambivalence is his other selves telling him to stop it.

This anger and sense of betrayal he's feeling - is it because he's "hurt", or because all this had spun out of his control, his sense of order, of how things should work?

That step-by-step revelation of progressively more transgressive photos is a delicious portrait of HA trying to stretch the boundary so that his sense of order does not get upset. It just doesn't sound convincing. Where's his heart in all this? Where's his dick?

I dunno. Maybe he's so seen-everything-already when it comes to sex, he feels no need to justify it in the letter. What he has not written I can't read into. What I'm reading is young and inexperienced.

Doesn't mean his turmoil is a fake hissy fit, or that he shouldn't feel angry or betrayed. But a bout of letting go, just going forth and fucking the boyfriend and the asshole BFF together, of watching the 2 of them go at it, and see how he responds - it might just sort things out a bit, not about the relationships, but about himself.
So the BFFs are having archive-worthy sex. What kind of reason why the BFFs aren't each other's primary would make HA still think his relationship will ever be what he needs it to be?
WAIT. How do you film yourself "on top of" the ass that you're fucking??

You can fuck-and-film from behind the ass, or from between the bottom's legs if he's lying on the back, but that's not "my boyfriend on top of said best friend".

Uggh. Either HA wrote sloppily - which is so out of character to the rest of the letter - or, ugggghhhh, the dreaded ... calling fake!! Let's see the pics and video!
@46: You're assuming they held the camera themselves.

that is why enlightened societies don't allow homosexuals (or women) in combat units.

it's betty crocker, dumbass
ignore Danny.
he is full of shit.
and WAY too far down the 'disgusting perverted deviant' road to ever find his way back to Real World.

unless you're into emotional pain and being shat upon.
cheating pieces of shit who are sorry do not remain best friends with their partners is shittery.

Forgive everyone involved.
as soon as possible.
it is for your own sake.
Forgiving is all about freeing yourself.
anger, resentment, bitterness- they all enslave you.
and keep you from being free and happy.
you don't forgive because the cheating pieces of shit deserve it.
you forgive because YOU deserve it.
the cheating pieces of shit may really be sorry (btw- your boyfriend is not...) and that often makes forgiving easier.
but even if they are not sorry, in fact- ESPECIALLY if they are not sorry; it is vital that you forgive.
for your sake.
#3a- forgiving doesn't mean sticking around for more abuse
#3b- dumping the piece of shit may make the forgiving easier

good luck
@49 - Thanks! I didn't realize that was one of them. I remember the big stir around the latino-afro-feature blending in what is now the '96 revision, but since I don't bake a lot of BC stuff, it's not really familiar. I have to say, having dug up the archive of various versions, that '65, 69 and '80 (who seems a style throwback to me), are definitely the hottest. I'm going to guess the first two are the same model and '80 is the nostalgia refresh with an updated hairdo.


since you were so nice we really feel bad about calling you dumbass.

its just what trolls do.......
@7's scenario occurred to me immediately as well.

I have no idea what to suggest about all that, but am fairly certain the three way suggested -- unless she wants that and I'd say her reaction says not -- would not make anything better.
Ravished, @30:

"I think a world where the imperative to fuck overrides worries about lying fornicators is a better place."

I love it! In total agreement with you. Wish more people (my husband, in particular) felt the same way.
I'm currently in a somewhat similar situation (replace "Best Friend" with "former FWB", "elaborate sex ritual" with "sexy chat", and "they're staying friends" to "he cut off contact.")

My question in this situations is always: why cheat?? In this situation especially. The boyfriend is having hot sex with his best friend. Why in the world don't they just break up with their primary partners and be together? They have both the sexual and the emotional component. In HA's shoes, that'd be the big question I'd be asking.

My bf's answer to that same question was," She's just for sex," just as context.
Martychan, I guess some people must have a totally different way of thinking about it.

For instance, when I hear you ask why they don't just break up with their primary partners, it sounds very shocking and drastic to me. To me it seems like it would be very wrong to throw a relationship away because you want to form a sexual connection with someone else.

For me, the question isn't "why cheat?", it's "why do the people I fall in love with insist I can't ever have sex with anybody else ever again?"
@56 Live,

You ask the question "why cheat?"; if you found the right partner(s) a better question might be "why lie?". I can't answer for most people, but I am strictly monogamous. I have no idea how much of that is nurture versus nature, but I just am. Like every relationship, there are always compromises because no one is perfect AND our ideals are changing somewhat all the time. If a major part of what drives you is the need to explore sex with multiple partners, someone that is possessive and/or insecure should lose a lot of attractiveness to you. From their standpoint, a question for you would be why you aren't working hard enough to help make them the only one you want to have sex with.

I would argue that the living with a lie thing is the part of cheating that may be the biggest deal breaker for most people. It seems like the liar part of the cheat is what hurts the most: trust and respect are crucial parts of a relationship. Perhaps part of the answer to finding people that are willing to be nonexclusive is to respect them enough to be open from the beginning. I'm sure lots of people make it clear they won't share as a requirement for beginning a relationship; it would be interesting to find out how many are really insisting they won't be lied to.

OK... they had sex... then they regretted it. But even with that regret, let's just keep these pictures around?

I'm not sensing much regret in that.
I appreciate what you're saying, Married in MA.

I was thinking that some of the people who make it clear they won't share are really insisting that they WILL be lied to.

I wonder what kind of work I could do to make my spouse the only one I want to have sex with... I'd be fairly content having sex with only him, if he would actually have sex with me :-( Well, he takes one for the team every once in a while, but it's not enough for me to feel fulfilled, wanted, desired, loved, satisfied...

In my sadness and desperation, I occasionally cheat, starting fairly recently. I stopped for a while because I felt like I was fundamentally changing into a lying, dishonest person... but then the desperation came back. So now I guess I just don't do it very often, so that I won't feel nervous and sneaky all the time, but every once in a while I find an outlet.

Hindsight being what it is, I shouldn't have gotten involved with him in the first place. Even if he were still my lover, I'd prefer some kind of open relationship. But love hit me hard, and I guess I already had a high tolerance for unhappiness, so here we are years later.
People, why is it a mystery how he filmed it? You only need one hand to hold yourself up, right, and the other to hold the camera? Many possible angles.

Ok, that said, I agree that the suggestion of a threesome goes too far. This is not a couple that had simply failed to clarify terms of the relationship. Rather, they had agreements about how to bring other people in. The other guy is the "best friend", thus laying a potentially greater claim on the boyfriend's affections than the lw. Let's let him heal, and measure how willing the boyfriend is willing to help the healing process, before threatening everything again. Put another way, having a threesome with someone you're worried your bf might love more than you, and has already fucked, sounds like a recipe for emotional disaster.

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