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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
I'd consider whether you live in a small community or not. You have one good name. If you live in NYC, you'll probably be able to find an infinite supply of gullible women to fool. If you live in a smaller town, however, you may find that there are consequences to being a scumbag to the women you have sex with. Word gets around.
some people, mostly women, love love love them some drama...whats more dramatic than cheating with somene they met on line. most guys in these situations want some action and nothing more. a little white lie, and they learn a potentially valuable lesson, and you relieve some stress.
one warning, the kind of person who will only 'cheat' on you, and not just have the guilt free affair has more than 1 red/crazy flag flying. good luck!
Um, otherwise, yeah, I would think of it as harmless role-play, because, you know... it basically is.
Hate to break it to you buddy, but with 30,000 surplus males in Seattle, a retread like yourself isn't going to be on the best seller list.
This is town where a 40 year old female can command the attention of 20 year olds who will shove you out of the way.
Also, the fact is, your story about an "open marriage" will come off as she dumping you so she can get a better deal. In fact, it's just a matter of time before she moves out completely and starts charging you alimony.
Either way, the LW should NOT lie to these women and cast himself as a cpos. Instead, he and his spouse should work together to figure out the answer to his dilemma.
A suggestion for an ad on CL: "This is a picture of my sexy husband and he has my permission to play with you. Call him, you will NOT regret it."
blog.seattlepi.com/thebigblog/2012/03/08…;
Basically hetero guys don't have a chance west of the Mississippi.
However we do well in the South and mid-Atlantic.
Keep trying! It helps to be involved in community stuff like volunteering for organizations that support stuff you're really interested in, as a way to get to know people in the real world. Sometimes it takes a while for people to get used to you and trust you, then "when it rains, it pours".
Guys showing up to play at a (hetero) swingers club get excluded if they don't have a woman willing to play accompanying them. "No married guys playing alone" is standard online too.
Ladies, why do you have to be crazy, back-stabbing bitches?
Besides, I think lying to a sex partner is unethical, even in this situation, and yes, it counts as lying even if it's a lie of omission. This isn't role playing. "Role playing" implies that both parties are informed of what's really going on.
@2 and @7, I don't think a sex worker can provide what WTFO is looking for. He wants to feel desirable, so he wants to have sex with someone who wants to have sex with him, not with someone who's being paid for it.
I agree with Mr. J. The women who want to help you cheat are also likely to want to have a relationship. Knowing that you are in a stable relationship is a turn-off, because that means their chances of being the one you run off with are very low.
Also, I agree with Cassette - trying to get around this by lying is a BAD IDEA. They're doing you a huge favor by eliminating themselves from your dating pool. Women who only want it if it's drama are not the women you want to bring into your life. You can't trust them. What if they get mad at you and choose to out you? At work, at school, to CPS if you have kids - being poly isn't widely socially accepted (for straight people at least), and your paramours need to be definitively drama-free. What if they "accidentally" get pregnant? Cover Thy Ass should be the first rule of "alternative" sexualities. Avoiding dramatic women is one of my only rules with my partner. I am not interested in dealing with crazy bitches, and if working harder to get laid is the price, so be it.
Definitely seek out the already poly people. I much prefer it, as they understand that you can fuck other women and NOT be doing it because your relationship is dying. "Normal" women find it hard to wrap their heads around this, and sometimes they still think they have a chance and make efforts to destabilize the relationship. Ugh. I hate being nice to my partner's women and then finding out that they've said nasty things about me or us when they realize they won't be walking away with my man.
Also, find a good friend who will be honest with you and ask them what you can do to have better chances. You might be a bad flirt, or maybe you just need a haircut and a new suit. You'll never be as popular as your wife (she has the vagina, after all) but we can all improve ourselves and maybe there's something totally correctable that's sinking your chances. Good luck!
Afterwards, she told me it was a disappointment - she didn't want an open marriage, she wanted to cheat, she wanted to be a bad girl.
What's more, many women are apparently unsatisfied with their inherent overwhelming advantage, so they further tilt the odds in their favor with dishonest tactics like boob jobs, push-up bras, Spanx, and makeup, all the while cautioning you not to try anything sneaky.
As a straight guy, you have to work every angle you can. Instead of asking yourself "Is this right?" ask yourself, "Is this legal?"
Fair play? That's for gay people.
Keep being honest, WTFO, and it'll pay off. And if it doesn't - if you honestly can't get laid without lying your ass off - then pay for it.
Those women aren't doing anything wrong. They are allowed to not sleep with you for any damn reason they like. The fact that you are being an ethical polyamorist does not entitle you to sleep with these women. Don't lie. Just don't.
This is what dudes West of the Mississippi put up with:
Cop: Girlfriend Attacked Me With Justin Bieber Doll
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/306…
#26
I'll get the reputation for being a Center for Polymers and Organic Solids?
http://www.cpos.ucsb.edu/
Perhaps you could start by brushing up on your dating skills with your wife. Do yourself a favor and take advantage of not being a single loser, when you have a successful relationship. You may be surprised to realize you do have good dating skills, you just thought of it as having fun with your wife.
Peace.
Here's the irony -- I've read about George Clooney's dating relationships...guess what, he gets the same BS as everyone else!
From an interview he had one relationship with a really hot French girl (young), but then he ended up getting dumped and said he bought her houses and all...what a loser!
Then, he couldn't find anyone to date so he had to have his manager pimp him out, and even then, he had trouble "moving dise".
Finally he settles on ... of all people ... Stacey Keibler ....who, while blonde and attractive, is that in a kind of swing a beer stein into your face and put you into a neck lock as I tower over you and look down at your bald head, grandpa kind of way!
Ok, look, if you think the finance game is rigged, the sex game is entirely rigged! The house wins....always.
Here's what going to happen: He'll do the pretend cheat'n thing and he still won't get laid that much more. Certainly not as much as his wife. And that's going to make him feel like shit.
My wife and I have seen this cycle repeat it self about half a dozen times with friends of ours.
Husbands just don't factor how wives can get laid way more easily than their male partners. Most men feel insecure with this imbalance. And the vast majority of the time either the experiment with other partners ends or the marriage does.
@20, upscale sex workers are actually better at making a guy feel desired than other women are. That's their job. (That's not a guarantee that you'll feel magic. But sex workers will say yes to a date with you, and that gives you a chance to see if you feel the magic.)
If he's feeling worthless because he can't get hookups like his wife, maybe they should reconsider the open marriage.... Doesn't sound like it's doing him a lot of good emotionally. Seems like a better option than lying to a new sex partner, with all the potential hassle that entails. Not sure why that would actually make him feel better emotionally anyway, given what he wrote about himself.....
I've recently been considering trying to find a fwb situation with a married man like WTFO. I'm not in a relationship and I feel like Iike I'm not quite ready to date, but I really want to have sex.
I don't know if this is a good idea or not, but I'm emotionally stable enough to handle the consequences if it doesn't work- I've had fwb before, only I've never actively pursued a sex-only relationship before. Going out of my way to find casual sex would be a first for me.
WTFO should find a woman in the poly community or a single woman who's not interested in a relationship but still wants sex. Hooking up with women who get off on cheating will only lead to disaster.
@35: From all the comments here, yours sounds the most heartfelt. It would be good if people picked up on that and addressed your points.
Yeah, it might actually make him more desirable to his wife, but it may actually lead to their eventual breakup. I don't know, it sounds like this venture into poly territory is a very risky situation all around and kudos to those who can pull it off successfully.
@44, the crazy ones will like the challenge, stay anyway, and get pregnant.
I'm under the impression that the poly community is overrun with guys in similar predicaments as LW. I suspect his odds of hooking up with a woman in that milieu are approximately the same as they would be in prison.
The fact is, it's hard for a straight guy to convince women to fuck him without offering the possibility of a relationship, no matter what community he is in. And it takes way more time than most married men have.
If LW really wants to get laid, he should hit the gym, read "The Game" or a similar book that will teach him how to make a good first impression, figure out where the women in his town are hanging out, and spend lots and lots of time there.
I'm a classic unicorn (bi/poly/kinky, and would be happy to be a secondary relationship to a stable married couple), but I'd like something ongoing rather than one-night-stands with strangers. That combined with age seems to pretty much rule me out as an object of interest.
Nevermind that it's still ethically problematic to mislead your lovers about the status of the rest of your lovelife even if it's "harmless", here's the problem:
What kind of woman is attracted to a guy who's cheating on his wife for her? What sort of personality might she have? And how do you think she's going to react to being deceived?
This is buying trouble and make no mistake.
WTFO: if your wife is okay being open, and is getting more play than you, and you're both agreed that this is a problem worth solving, you should do what basically every other middle-aged couple of mixed attractiveness levels (no judgement, btw: we all age at different speeds) does: get a membership at a swing club, and explain to prospective partners that you only do full swap.
@54, we tried swinging, but I got sick of the pressure to have sex with guys I didn't like, just so my husband could get laid. Then the currency is my body, instead of our money.
@43 it's about $500/hour. Maybe that's a lot, but the point is that a guy is going to pay for the sex one way or another: in emotional intimacy, in money, in time, in dealing-with-crazy, in offering-up-his-wife's-body... there are many currencies.
In any case, I'm pretty much down with Dan here.
Speak for yourself.
@28: Keep being honest, WTFO, and it'll pay off.
The payoff for an honest man is a relationship, which LW already has. If you ask a thousand women for all the reasons why they might have NSA sex with a man, "honesty" wouldn't even make the list. He's more likely to get laid out of pity than for being honest.
@52: Trolling? No, but I'm not going to get into another futile debate about the merits of The Game. I will say that I have two (female) friends who love the book as much as I do, and it's not a coincidence that we all have PhDs in psychology.
The reason I wasn't open to someone in an open relationship, versus the cheaters is because we are not friends, it is just sex, there is very little room for -any- emotional intimacy. I am so fucking starved for emotional intimacy... anyway, that might be going on with some of these women, WTFO. Even if they genuinely don't want to torpedo your marriage or secretly hope they'll be the one to tear you away, they may want some level of friendship/ intimacy that they don't see as possible with someone in an open relationship.
I recently got a message from someone in an open relationship and finally decided to give it a shot. We get along well and the sex is great. It does lack the emotional intimacy. However, he's open, consistent, safe and happy to help me explore my sexuality in an ongoing sexual relationship I've never had before. His enthusiasm for exploration and encouraging me to see him as the tester for my fantasies was a HUGE incentive to overcome the mental barriers I have. (Hint, hint.)
I unequivocally can say that I have absolutely *nothing* in common with nearly all parents. There are plenty of people out there for whom parenthood is the be-all and end-all of what they want out of life. A goodly majority of them are women, of course. And maybe you can say something about parents as a culture from these people, but good god, you can't make blanket statements about parents any more than you can about "consumers".
I was thinking something along the lines of "I'd love to stick around for breakfast, but I have to pick up the twins from Bible School" might do the trick.
Curious, did the other men who've approached you sound more like it was about what they wanted, not what they were offering you? You have a unique perspective and I'd love to know more about what makes a partnered man a viable/appealing option for an unpartnered woman. Does knowing or not knowing his partner make it better or worse? (If you don't mind sharing, of course.)
Sex workers, no matter how upscale, are still faking that they want to have sex with you. Suspension of disbelief tends not to work here. If the OP wants to feel desired a sex worker is not the solution.
Upscale sex workers don't have sex with people they don't enjoy having sex with. They LIKE sex a lot. They're GOOD at their jobs. They pick their partners, and they enjoy the sex. If you have to shit all over that, and act like "oh, but they don't really want me" then you might as well think the same of your wife, who gets paid a lot better for putting up with you. (Generic you -- I don't know anything about either of you.)
It's not uncommon for good escorts to enjoy their work with some clients and even have orgasms during sessions. Likewise, your mileage on a lap dance will vary radically depending on whether she's having fun, too.
And for a lot of guys, a sex worker would probably enjoy sex with him as much as or more than his wife does.
I don't believe in marriage for a host of personal reasons, so the fact that someone is married wouldn't necessarily mean that a connection with that person would be ruled out. I could conceive of some situations where I might go there with someone who was married, and I have done in the past. (For example, if the person was in a loveless, sexless marriage, and was unable to leave, as I was.) I want intimacy and an emotional connection with a lover, and while I think that's difficult to get with a married person, I don't think it's impossible.
I would want a prospective to be upfront with me as to their situation so I could make an informed decision as to whether I wanted to be involved with that person or not, and whether that person could offer me an emotional connection and not just sex.
My views on sleeping with marrieds may lead people to label me a CPOS, but I'm not. I'm a very nice person and I am very respectful of people's family lives. I just think signing one's life away at 20 is a stupid idea, and I don't hold people to a dumb decision, made in the heat of passion, that they now regret, that passion having long subsided.
However, I am a person with feelings and I don't deserve to be treated badly just because I may not share your values regarding the institution of marriage.
As a person who could potentially be on the receiving end of this advice to conceal the nature of his arrangement, I wholeheartedly disagree. I wouldn't want to be duped into filling the role of a free whore or a sex toy for a bored married man who wants to try out extramarital sex to spice up his sex life. I would be very hurt and feel violated if I was tricked into being involved with someone under false pretenses.
I agree with other people who say that he should connect with like-minded women in the poly community, or pay for sex with a sex worker.
Yes, women who are going to be interested in participating with your extramarital excursions are few and far between, and it's going to be difficult to find them, but suck it up - you've already got one woman to go home to!
If you have to pay money for friendship then that does not sound like a real friendship to me. "Payment" for being someone's friend should be being a friend back to them.
If both of you are happy with that arrangement, I can't argue with that.
For me personally, I can live with paying for sex -- as you said earlier, "With women, there's always some way you're paying for it" -- although I'd prefer that my sex partners want me instead of my money. But you are probably right that that is just a fantasy, so I take what I can get.
Paying people for friendship, on the other hand, is not something I could live with.
It's totally possible and even likely that anyone you sleep with at all regularly could become an emotional connection. It's a total fallacy to think that being in love with one person bars any emotional response to another. It's very human to bond and love more than one person - we've just all been taught that one love must be dead before another can grow.
Also, assuming that you can guarantee that your CPOS lover is 100% honest is pretty naive. I know a few "other women" who were pretty horrified to discover that not only was their married lover still enjoying his wife's sexual favors, but that their love and friendship seemed to be pretty alive and well. It's also pretty hypocritical to state that you wouldn't want to be "duped" by a married man, but a wife who thinks her husband is being monogamous is ok to be duped. Why? Because she married him long ago when they were stupid and 20 and he's telling you their marriage is dead? Funny that you don't hold them to a decision and promise made to someone else. Why would you? Self-interest is more powerful than most people's morals, especially when you don't know the wife. I know I allowed myself to be persuaded once, and then I met her (and heard her talk about him and their son) and I felt like the biggest idiot on the planet.
Nice self-serving double standard you have there.
Sure, some open relationships have a rule about no emotional connection with outside partners, but that's not universal. Are you sure you're not basing your emotional connection on the feeling that they prefer you to their wives?
This is my point. People are complex, relationships are complex, and reducing people to a CPOS label and then saying that they deserve to be deceived is, imo, a shitty thing to do.
WTFO's wife may have given him permission to fuck other people, but that doesn't mean he's *entitled* to fuck other people. The other people deserve to get a say in what they are getting into, and to have a say, they need to know what they are getting into.
When I rebuffed my friend, it was because I wouldn't feel special being the accessory to their sexual experiments in non monogamy. (Which they are totally free to try, as I have tried in the past, just as I am totally free to opt out of).
He also hasn't had any other luck so far with his extra marital pursuits and the feedback he has had from other rebuffers is that they also didn't want to go there because they wouldn't feel special, because clearly his wife is the special one.
I'm sure there are other women out there who aren't in need of being the special one with him (maybe they have their own special one), who would be up for a bit of extra action on the side.
I think WTFO needs to seek out someone who wants what he wants.
Don't deceive, dude. Just because your open marriage is okay with your wife, doesn't mean it's okay with the other human being you want to bring into your marriage dynamic. And you really don't want to be involved with someone who isn't okay with your situation - it's only going to lead to pain later.
Women who want the man to be a cheater do not deserve honesty, nor would a man.
* When people act as if they have sand in their genital region about defending others
Cheaters = bad, therefore undeserving of being treated with respect.
Actually I think @57 was on to something. I've had a lot of my female friends cheat too, and in every single case, none of us wanted the man to leave his wife, for a variety of reasons (mostly being divorced with kids and wanting to have sex with someone who cared for us, but not wanting to have that person enter our family lives).
Second the thoughts of checking out the local poly scene & building some friendships there, at least. Also, it never hurts to approach the whole thing w/ renewed confidence buffers - working out, good grooming, & that suggested guitar playing angle sure wouldn't hurt. ;)
Most of my friends have cheated. It doesn't automatically make us bad people. You probably just don't hear about the affairs that go well, where no-one gets hurt, and no bunnies get boiled.
Erica, I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. On the one hand, you say that, for a man, having sex with a woman always means "paying for it" in some way. But you immediately follow it up with "or your insecurities say that you are". So what is it? Am I right if I think that a woman will only want to have sex with me if I'm paying for it in some way, or is that thought my insecurities (about me being unlovable, etc.) talking?
Thanks.
Are you saying that all sex between men and women is mercenary on the woman's part?
Women use sex to buy intimacy with men.
Men use intimacy to buy sex with women.
For both men and women, there are other currencies, but those are the main ones.
The OP wants to avoid paying women in intimacy (he's offering them a lie). And he's apparently not charming & gorgeous enough, to pay them in fantasies-fulfilled (few of us are).
He will have to come up with another currency. Money is the obvious one, but if his time isn't worth much to him, he can pay in time instead.
If I pay you the compliment of assuming that you are as pro-M-sex-worker as you are pro-F-sex-worker, may I wonder about whether your advising a $500-an-hour pursuit comes off as classist, and how well it intersects with your feminism? I've seen women telling each You're Doing Feminism Wrong for less.
Mainly, though, the logistics are interesting. Assuming that it puts a bit of a pinch on the budget for many people, does it come out of His Discretionary Funds, or is it proportional in the interests of Promoting Marital Harmony? I also wonder if it's effective. If a couple can afford at most an hour every three months, how long will that hold up against even just one evening date a week?
While I never got quite to your point, I've nothing against your putting your ability to buy your friends' time to good use. During periods when I enjoyed rather more discretionary income than my friends, I went in for generous presents on the clear understanding that no return (even within means expectations) was necessary.
From the open perspective, I'm not sure yet. He's all set for us to meet, playing with them could be an option, he thinks we'd make great friends. Still trying to wrap my head around it- I have a hard time understanding being as secure in a relationship as they are, given my own experiences. I'm not sure how I'll feel about meeting and/or being friends with his wife.
I think the reason I responded to him versus other guys in open relationships because he stated a clear FWB goal that I share: it includes being friends: socializing, good conversation, etc., not just sex. Single guys that I've tried to negotiate a FWB with have generally interpreted it as "I can ignore her call, but she should be ready to go whenever I want." No.
@84- Chase- It's possible, but I don't consciously think they prefer me to their wives. After all, I know that they are staying with their wives, not coming to me. It's been years since the actual flings happened, so clearly I'm not high on the priority list (nor should I be).
I think part of the emotional fulfillment is being made #1 by someone who genuinely cares for me, even if it's for an evening. With the open guy, for example, one of their rules is no actual sleeping together- sleepovers OK, but separate beds required. That draws a clear (understandable) line about who is #1 at all times. I respect that, but it's my problem with FWB- I can get orgasms from a vibe. (Though those have gotten quite old, too.) I can't get cuddling and waking up wrapped in someone's arms- which are things that the men I've met seem to be terrified will turn me to boiling bunnies, even if they're not someone I actually want to date.
I am a man, a good looking man, that is in a healthy and happy open relationship of 6 years. We are as committed to each other as any married couple (own a home together). The whole notion on here that a man in an open relationship is not emotionally available is ludicrous. In fact, I would never be in a sex only situation. To me, I'd rather masturbate than be in an emotionless sex situation.
I can tell you that I have also been told countless times that if I were cheating, they would be interested. It blows Karla's, my partners, mind every time she sees it said. I would say that more than 50% of the hundreds of women I've talked to over the years have said something similar...they want to be lied to. They have to feel "special" and the only way they seem to be able to do that is if they are chosen "over" someone else. Just being told that I care, or that they are beautiful doesn't cut it. There is something seriously wrong many women's thinking (not all obviously). I've even been told this by women that were actively fucking other men in relationships they know were going no where. I was told, to my face that Karla knowing what is going on would be too weird, but my cheating and lying would be ok. WTF?
I feel for the man here, but would say this. Lying isn't ever going to be the answer. It won't feel right to you and will not help raise your self confidence. Have patience, join a site like OKC and be completely honest with everyone but have the patience to write a ton of people. Odds are sooner or later you will find someone right for you.
AJ