Comments

202
Are you Christian parents preparing your kids for encounters like this? As the world becomes more and more hostile to Christian's we should be teaching our children the Bible basics so they know how to stay focused when the Bible and their God is attacked. This speaker is quoting Old Testament laws that where specific to the Covenant with Israel and breaking those commandments meant there must be a blood atonement/sacrifice. The New Testament Covenant is that Jesus is the one-time sacrifice given as a gift by God so that we may receive forgiveness when we break the commandments. The speaker says we "ignore" the Laws of the Bible. No, we do not ignore the law; but have accepted Jesus’ offer to stand in our place and pay the debt. The speaker then misquotes and twists the verses on slavery; the Bible does not encourage it- but states "If" you are in bondage to act as though you are working for God; don't let your circumstances corrupt your character. Then scripture directs slave-owners to treat their slave's humanely and with dignity. Take time to learn your Bible... And remember, Jesus loves you!
203
But thirty years after graduating from high school, Dan Savage is STILL acting like a fag and stewing over what was apparently some tremendous emotional scarring. Aided and abetted by such perennially bullied and oppressed entities such as Apple, Microsoft, and the US federal government—a bully if there ever was one—Dan has launched one of those “nonprofit” things called “It Gets Better” to help protect teenagers from being bullied. (Never mind that according to some studies, it doesn’t get better.)

Instead of “It Gets Better,” how about “Get Over It!” or even “Get Over Yourself!” or maybe “Didn’t You Graduate From High School a Long Time Ago?”

Please share this article by using the link below. When you cut and paste an article, Taki's Magazine misses out on traffic, and our writers don't get paid for their work. Email editors@takimag.com to buy additional rights. http://takimag.com/article/tiptoeing_thr…
204
@200 I agree, it isn't going anywhere. Carry on.
205
Please go watch the video @193 & @ 196. Forget what you heard and go watch it.

Dan Savage did not isolate those journalism students for being Christians and he did not taunt "every young Christian's heart". He did not bully them. Those students separated themselves from the group. They chose to express their disagreement by walking out. He called them on their walking out, walking out on a journalism confrence that focused on balancing on the edge of legitimate public interest and the interests of those who would rather differing views not be published. Their leaving was their expressing their unwillingness to tolerate his differing view on the use of Bible as justification to deny LGBT people equal rights now and to point out that the Bible was viewed as justification for slavery in the past. He called their choice to march out "pansy-assed," he did not call them out as individuals "pansy-assed". Considering that the confrence was designed to help students balance the legitimate public interest with those they disagree with, their leaving shows that they presently lack the journalistic skills and integrity to report without bias on subjects they disagree with.

By the way, your "every young Christian's heart" is being extreme. You deny that some Christians agree with Dan.
206
@166: "Regarding Levitical laws, you need to understand that this was when Israel was under a Theocracy, and only applied to them."
Judaism would like to disagree with you on this. There are some commandments that can no longer be carried out, as the Temple no longer exists, but Jews throughout history have adhered to the remainder as best as possible.
207
I am a Christian and I agree with Dan Savage. The apology is unnecessary if you heard the selective sound bytes and not the actual context in which they were said.
208
If your true goal was to communicate to these people, you failed miserably. If your goal was to piss people off and get press, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.

If you actually intended to point out the failed logic of relying on only PART of Leviticus while claiming the Bible must be taken litereally, then you should have moderated your language. "Pansy-assed" was unforgivable and homophobic. Period. Shame on you.

The use of words like "Bullshit", although accurate did not help you communicate your point. All it did was close minds that were barely open in the first place. Had you saved that easy shot to the end or chosen not to use it at all, your point would have been far more persuasive. By using it when you did, a lot of people decided you had nothing valuable to say and shut you out. Until that point, they were at least listening.

You really ought to be embarrassed about your performance. It was not persuasive. It was not your finest hour.
209
Dan,

I see your apology and raise you a sincere thank you for saying what you did in the first place.

See, you apologized for saying this:
"It's funny, as someone who's on the receiving end of beatings that are justified by the Bible, how pansy-assed some people react when you push back."

But that’s exactly what so many of us, including me, really needed to hear. As a grown woman who was raised in a fundie household with a pastor for a step-dad, and one who was recently bullied online by family members, I needed to hear this. I was bullied for standing up to Limbaugh’s tirade over Sandra Fluke, less than a month after having emergency surgery for a large cyst on my ovary and basically being exactly one of the examples that Fluke gave in her testimony.

So why am I telling you all this? Because I got the same condescending and often subtle “Christian” bullying in relation to my reproductive health that gay kids get in regards to who they are. I was preached at for standing up for something about myself that I cannot change in a manner that was hostile and rife with the kind of judgment that some people feel the Bible justifies.

And I pushed back.
And it was hell. My own mother took the side of the bully. Needless to say we don’t talk much anymore because the reaction from both her, the bully, and my step-dad was utterly pansy-assed. They simply didn’t want to hear it, much less deal with a strong, intelligent woman standing up for herself and discussing the complexities of the Bible and the failure of many modern-day evangelicals to respect women, gays, the poor, and whatever else their conservative pundits choose to shine their scalding light upon. And through that horrible time, I understood on a personal level, just how important pushing back is.

The stark reality is that any belief system that says, “Do what I say, or else,” is based on an ultimatum that is also at the heart of bullying. And the fact that you took such knowledgeable and forthright pains to call out the selective nature of how a text like the Bible is used, well that just shows that you aren’t just attacking people’s beliefs. Instead it shows that you’ve taken the time, much like myself and all my recovering-from-dogma friends, to really attempt to understand both the positive and the negative in these belief systems and how they can be better.

Those kids that got up and walked out were journalism students. To be a journalist you have to be able to consider utterly disparate points of view. When I was still a teen, I confronted my mother about the horrible things she used to say about gay people. Like when I lived in the predominantly gay area of Minneapolis, and she wouldn’t let my brother visit because a “pedophile would get him.” Midway through the discussion, she got up and ran to her room and slammed the door. Sound familiar?

It’s bullshit. Both in the actions that stem from it, and in the consistent picking and choosing of what page of that big ‘ol book is going to be used on which occasion.

Try the “love the sinner, hate the sin” in many other situations. What if they loved me but hated the fact that I need to take birth control for the rest of my life and saw that as an abomination? Or since I’m a writer down to my bones, what if they loved me but hated that I wrote, hated what I wrote, and saw my entire life’s work as an abomination?
It just doesn’t work.
Why?
Because it’s not love.
And pushing back often is what makes that clear.
Especially for kids who grow up gay in homes like mine. Especially for girls who are not the limited and often submissive ideals in the Bible. Especially so the next generation of kids can see the ultimatum of “or else you’re going to hell” for the veiled threat that it is.

It is awful to know that you are not loved. It is awful to have silence and shunning and the knowledge that they pray for your soul because it is not enough for them.

And it needs to be called out.
So thank you for doing it.

-Carrie

210
@204. Before you take off, I'm assuming you'll be gone tomorrow as you only joined today to complain on this thread. As this debate goes on, I ask you to reflect on all the changes LDS has gone through in its short life. Change happens, your church has shown a lot of courage when dealing with the outside world and moving in a pragmatic fashion.
211
Okay this thread had jumped the shark. Locked minds remain locked until an individual has the courage to open it. But hey SLOG has more page hits and that translates to more financial revenue.

And may the self-proclaimed victimized Christian majority feel like their "sufferings" have been acknowledged. May they all return to acting Christ-like in both his care for the poor and rejected and with the quiet grace he bore during his suffering. His are big shoes to fill.

Take care.
212
The horror! Journalism students heard an opinion that differs from their own!
213
It was great and true speech. It's typical of xtians to deride any one who questions the validity of their opinions, facts be damned. (Isn't that the definition of "faith" in the first place? " Believing in something regardless of evidence?"

It was big of you to apologize for calling them pansy assed. Nothing wrong with trying to keep the discussion above name calling. Given the name calling coming from the right, it's pretty tame really.

Cheers! Speak more truth to power!
214
@202
"Then scripture directs slave-owners to treat their slave's humanely and with dignity."

But scripture does not say to release the slaves TODAY and to never own them from this day onward.

But it would be very easy for Jesus to have said that. Very easy.

But he did not.
215
203: One guy wants to be left alone. Another guy wants to be the grand arbiter of what everyone else gets to do in the bedroom.

Which one needs to "get over himself," again?

And the whole point is that Dan is helping kids who ARE still in high school (although I wouldn't expect a homophobe to grasp something so complicated). Oh, and your "magazine" sucks too. Don't quit your day job.

202: Do you know why Dan is quoting the Old Testament? Because that's what CHRISTIANS quote to justify anti-gay bigotry. Dan didn't yank the Old Testament into this debate. You guys did. You don't get to hide behind the OT when you want to bash gays, but then hide behind the New Testament and claim that the OT is suddenly unimportant when people point out the OT's flaws (or the parts of the OT that Christians disobey).

Your inconsistency still stands. If we can eat shellfish and wear polyester because Jesus paid the price for those sins, then why can't we accept homosexuality for the same reason? If we can't criticize Christians using the Old Testament because it was replaced by the New Testament, then why do Christians keep citing the Old Testament to justify anti-gay bigotry in the first place?

To switch back-and-forth and say that the OT is important when you want to use it to justify homophobia, but then suddenly unimportant again when a quote from it makes your religion look bad (or when you want to eat shrimp), is intellectually dishonest. Which is another word for lying. Which is a sin.

Also: telling slave owners to be kind to their slaves is still encouraging slavery. If God is all-powerful, there is no reason for him not to straight up tell them to stop enslaving people entirely. Anything short of that, therefore, shows approval for the existence of slavery, even if he does want them to cut down on the whippings a tad.

But I'm not here for a biblical debate. My point is, even if every single page of the bible told you to hate gays with all your heart, you'd still have no right to expect gays to tolerate such behavior in public schools. If Dan was a bit stern in communicating this, just be glad that he's not doing the "Christian" thing and tying anti-gay bullies to fence posts. A mild challenge to your worldview is not oppression, and the fact that you're even comparing the two plights speaks to how sheltered and weak you are.

216
Dan, great speech but you should have never apologized. Your opponents are pansy-assed and they would prefer you and your partner, as well as all gay people, be dead. They work everyday to pass laws to make it easier to threaten, harass, and commit violence against GLBT Americans. They don't deserve any apology or moderation.
217
@30- God as represented in the Bible is well served by bitchy assholes. He's jealous, capricious and tyrannical. The New Testament gives you the option of partaking in a bloody act of human/divine sacrifice to get out from under his thumb.
218
Funny, I thought lying was against one of the commandments ... but the Christian Right (as opposed to all Christians) lies and lies and lies some more. They're lying about YOU, Dan; don't let them get away with it!
219
@78- Your argument is completely predicated on the existence of a god as described in The Bible. Thus it is absurd.
220
What's bullshit is needing to apologize.
222
Wow, Dan is all over breitbart.com, apparently because he and Obama are besties.
223
Does anyone know what came before and after the clip that has gone viral? I fully agree with and support just about everything in the clip we keep seeing, and am ambivalent about needing to apologize for the pansy-assed comment, I want to see the rest of it.

Was this actually the start of the talk, immediately after Dan was introduced? And what came after the "Okay I'm done with the Bible" part?

224
You spoke the absolute truth, Dan. Don't let the bastards get you down. Thanks for taking the high road on the apology.
225
Yeah, no apology was needed here. When your beliefs are indefensible, walking away instead of participating in a discussion is weak at best and morally negligent at worst.
226
I wish to explore a few ideas on the subject of homosexuality. Amongst certain homosexuals there exists the following point of view: "what I do is of no importance to anyone else, it is a personal and private matter". Everything which touches upon sexual matters ceases to be private when the life or death of a nation depends on it. It is the difference between world domination or annihilation.

A nation with many children can gain supremacy and mastery of the wordl. A pure race with few children already as one foot in the grave; in fifty or a hundred years it will be of no significance; in two hundred years it will be extinct. It is essential to realise that if we allow this infection to continue in Germany without being able to fight it, it will be the end of Germany, of the Germanic world. Unfortunately this is not the simple matter it was for our forefathers. For them, the few isolated cases were simply abnormalities; they drowned them in bogs. Those who found bodies in the mire did not know that in 90% of the cases they found themselves face to face with a homosexual who had been drowned with all his belongings. This was not punishment, more the simple elimination of this particular abnormality. It is vital we rid ourselves of them; like weed we must pull them up, throw them on the fire and burn them. This is not out of a spirit of vengeance, but of necessity; these creatures must be exterminated.
227
I would love to see you attack the Koran and the Muslim religion as well as others that are even more non-accepting of gays. Hypocrisy is promoting a message with attacks.

Of course you will go after Christianity because it is safe and you know you will not experience the same repercussions if you had gone after Muslims.

You did this in front of high school kids, you are an embarrassment to gays.
228
Hey Dan - I love your show - I am a big podcast listener and i turn a lot of people onto you. i am a christian minister and i am a lesbian - it is a difficult blend and as a result i have become a big advocate for people who are lgbtqi in the church and outside the church. anyway - i watched the video of the high school journalism conference because it has created a buzz. i read your apology. my only comment is that i don't think there is a such thing as authentic dialogue about this topic with kids in high school. developmentally they sharp as tacks, but on a moral scale, most are unable to think outside their own paradigm. i was a liberal kid and i had little patience for conservatives. and i know the same is true for conservatives... I guess my point is that i wonder what it is you were trying to accomplish by using your heated language. some tell me they think you are a shock jock. perhaps i am naive, but i think you are a truth teller and i don't put you in the shock jock category. but i do think your language was unproductive. i agree with everything you said about scripture, but there is a way to speak about it without being completely disrespectful of your "opponent"... oh - and once you start using "opponent" language, you are sunk. anyway - i have never written in for your podcast (maybe one day), but i thought i would write here! Rev. Audrey Connor
230
I like to think of myself as a Christian because it best describes the church I attend. I try to explore, through faith, how to bring love into the world and rid it of fear and hate. Dan, you are one of the best examples of the kind of person I want to be. I have sat my kids down in front of It Gets Better a handful of times to show them what true love and acceptance is (current favorite: LA Gay Men's Chorus singing 'True Colors'). Please keep doing what you do because you do it so well. I admire your passion and drive to stand up to people who try to keep anyone from having a voice.
231
Dan, I was one of the teachers at that conference and I spoke to you afterward about being the "Stonewall" of this generation. There are monumental moments and people throughout history who set into motion something much larger than the original moment or person. I told you that YOU are one of those people and I stand by that statement. YOU are making a difference. One day we will all look back upon "It Gets Better" as one of those seminal movements and you as its spark.

Good on you, sir.
232
@226. That's totally insane. Do any of you conservatives want to denounce this guy?
@227. Though it'd be neat to see, Islam is not a powerful force in America. Besides if he did lambast the Koran, would you defend him? Thought so.
233
Dan, I was one of the teachers at that conference and I spoke to you afterward about being the "Stonewall" of this generation. There are monumental moments and people throughout history who set into motion something much larger than the original moment or person. I told you that YOU are one of those people and I stand by that statement. YOU are making a difference. One day we will all look back upon "It Gets Better" as one of those seminal movements and you as its spark.

Good on you, sir.
234
Now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
- Romans 3:21-24; The Holy Bible
235
I think it's interesting how you call yourself tolerant towards all. Let's all be honest..
236
"I think it's interesting how you call yourself tolerant towards all. Let's all be honest..." #235 beat me to it. This Dan Savage fellow seems as hypocritical as those he's "calling out." It's not the choir directors job to entertain the choir; rather to reach those walking past outside.

"To generalize is to be an idiot. To particularize is the alone distinction of merit. General knowledge are those knowledge that idiots possess."
237
I have never heard of you until I saw your bashing on FoxNews.com to the high school kids that are Christian. Beliefs aside, all I saw in the video was a damaged kid in an adult body. You not only bashed their beliefs but than assaulted them for simply walking out. I would break you if given the chance you little douche.
238
@234: And? Your point? We're all sinners? What? I'm sure you think your post is deeply profound, and maybe if I were extremely stoned ( after freaking out about how weird hands and feet look if you stare at them long enough) it might elicit a mild "Whoa. Dude." from me, but I'm not stoned and you will have to do MUCH better than that if you want to play in this sandbox.

@235: As for you, accusations of cowardice flung by the unregistered and anonymous are by definition absurd.
239
Mr. Savage, the following link takes you to my Challenge2 blog where I have responded to your rants about the Bible. http://challenge2.wordpress.com/2012/04/…

In Christ Jesus
Jerry McDonald
240
This "we're the real victims" act by the majority (ie Christians) is getting very, very tired. I'm glad this video went viral because anyone with half a brain can see that the walk-out was both pre-planned and pitiful.

Keep preaching, Dan! The world needs to hear it now more than ever.
241
@202 You are confusing an unwillingness to keep acting as doormats with hostility towards Christianity.

I'm sure it's a painful process to go from an unquestioned majority to being expected to actually respect other's pov but you know what? Welcome to the real world. Most of us have learned how to get along with all sorts of folks and you can too.
242
Mr. Savage, the following link takes you to my Challenge2 blog where I have responded to your rants about the Bible. http://challenge2.wordpress.com/2012/04/…

In Christ Jesus
Jerry McDonald
244
@237: Biiiiiiiiig talk. What? No turning of the other cheek? You know who threatens people with violence behind a shield of unregistered anonymity?

A pansy ass.
245
@242. I read your piece. I won't get into your inability to answer Savage's question. None of you guys have. You've simply attacked him as a person. It looks like you really love the bible and that's fine and all. But can you answer Savage's question? Why do Christians get to pick and choose which sections to follow?
Lastly, AIDS is an acronym. It's simply spelt AIDS. Similarly STDs is plural not possessive. Please correct these typos.
246
You said they left when you "fought back".
What did the people who left do to you?
Sounds to me like you were lumping all Christians together in one boat.
Do you like being painted with such a broad brush?
If the bible condones slavery, please explain the Quakers and the Wesleyans.
Were you fighting back against them?
Could you please list the denominations of the CHILDREN who left the room?
247
All I can say is, Life Imitates South Park! The anti-bullying guy bullies high school kids. You couldn't make it up.... wait a sec, South Park did and it came true.
248
Dan oh Dan, they are hateful people, also simple minded, can't except death, think they are so wonderful that life will go on for them after, they are losers, and what's wrong with the state of affairs on this earth, and then maybe they are 666.
249
@242
Okay, I looked at that site and you STILL couldn't address Dan's comments.

Your opinion of Jesus seems to leave out the miracles that He performed. Why is that?

Why is it that Jesus who could raise the dead, heal the blind and walk on water could NOT clearly state that slavery was wrong and for all of his followers to release their slaves that day and to oppose slavery?

Your opinion of Jesus seems to be that he was just some guy who could not speak against the existing customs of the day.
250
your against bullies right? you bullied the walk outs, right? you know what you are? Jesus called people like you hypocites: person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion. 2. : a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings. — hypocrite adjective
251
@246. You're missing the point. Savage was arguing that Christianty is constantly changing to fit the outside world. Quakers are a great example of rejecting the mainstream theology of the day. Remember a lot of people hated the Quakers during these times. You may dislike his language but you can't deny the changing nature of Christianty. If kids want to go through life pretending things don't change. That's sad. Adults shouldn't shelter them that way.
They weren't being bullied. They are however being protected by adults who seem to have no interest in letting them be exposed to the world, this stunting their growth as people.
252
@250 if that's bullying to you. You are so out of touch with what kids deal with.
253
All of you that condone attacks on someone's religion is demonstrating poor judgment.

Having faith or following a particular set of beliefs does not warrant this broad based attack.

All of you are only feeding into the frenzy of divisive rhetoric.

Continue your agenda to divide and smear others, it will not work.

There is something else at hand and it saddens me to say so.

I hope all of you take a look a yourselves and ponder if you have the right to attack someone or some other group without reason.

Again, if you want to be equitable go after the Koran and other religions and cultures that kill people for merely being gay or that appear to act gay.

I think the real Pansy ass here is Dan Savage and everyone that is expressing a distorted view of presenting a positive message "how to prevent and stop bullying".

254
lol. No one takes you seriously anyways. You're the Nicki Minaj of gay rights activism.
255
@246 THEIR JUST POOR SWEET LITTLE INNOCENT CHILDREN!(sobs) WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
256
@ 253: You wrote:
"I hope all of you take a look a yourselves and ponder if you have the right to attack someone or some other group without reason."

Three quick things:
1. He apologizes in the article above if anyone felt attacked.
2. He then restates that was not attacking individuals or Christians as a group, but instead he was challenging the logic behind using the Bible to condemn gays.
3. "Without reason?" Are you kidding me? Here, read this, maybe it will clarify to you what many mainstream and evangelical Christians are using their "Bible founded" version of religion to do:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/new…
257
So, let me get this straight (probably no pun intended). "Love the sinner, hate the sin" is offensive to gays because if we love you, then we MUST love your actions?? Does that go for friends who are addicted to drugs? If we love them, we also have to love the fact that they are addicted to meth or coke or alcohol or whatever. So you give me no choice, in a world where you make decisions for ME. This ain't that world. You don't get to tell me what actions I find acceptable and what actions I do not. Also, it's OK to use words like "bullshit" and phrases like "pansy-assed" (because we Christians are just way too sensitive)--yet use the word "fag" or a phrase like "ass jockey," and it's the end of the world. It's such a temptation to hate your guts, and the guts of every pro-gay poster in this thread. But instead of dragging you behind a car until you are dead, I'll turn to the Book of which you are so dismissive. That Book instructs me to love you, and love you I will. You might want to rethink your stance on the Bible, as it has likely saved more than one of your butts from who knows what sort of terrible things....just sayin'
258
@257. You need to relearn the word love. Veiled threats aren't part of it.
259
& @ 240
Thank you.
I used to be one of those brainwashed kids. Looking back it was horrible. It's so obvious that it was staged.
And the reality is that you cannot attack people to the extent that kids are offing themselves, and then play poor little holy victim. It's a common tactic and needs to be called out for what it is.
Thanks for pointing it out.
260
@ 257
With your comparison of being gay to having a drug addiction, and then your verging on hate speech because gay people have been killed in that manner, you have now made yourself an ideal example of the bullying that you hide behind your big old book.

Good job. You just managed to somehow prove yourself not only wrong, but completely ignorant of what Christ taught. You're the problem. Thanks for making it so obvious.
261
@ 242,

I read it and you're grasping with your conclusions about slavery in the NT. And, you DID NOT answer the question Mr. Savage made! And, you ignore that the Bible has been quoted and used to justify slavery. You ignore that triangular slave trade between the west coast of Africa, the eastern seaboard of the US, and the capitals of Europe was blessed by all the churches.

All I got was you love the Bible and your convinced that your authority permits your non-answers to be sufficent. And while you made your non-answers you took the opportunity to make an attack on Mr. Savage as a person.

A mature and godly response would have acknowledged that those students were attending a confrence titled Journalism on the Edge. A confrence with a stated purpose of finding the balance on the edge of public interest and the interests of those who would rather differing views were not published. It would have acknowledged that they started walking out before anything "offensive" was said. It would honestly acknowledge that students who chose to remove themselves. Those students were not victims separated from their fellow attendees to be victimized. Those students were not suffering. they were intolerant of what Mr. Savage was saying, and they protested it by walking out.

So thank you for your non-answers and apologetics. I'm sorry you felt the need to attack Mr. Savage inorder to defend your love of your interpretation of the Bible. You're response is an excellent example as to why religious people support injustice.
262
And yet a gain, the self-appointed champion of the bullied reveals himself to be...a bully.

I'm a gay man who would LOVE to vote for a new spokesmodel :P
263
I think you said what needed to be said--it was high time that someone pointed out the hypocracy of the so-called "Christian" right. You forgot to mention that the "sin" of Sodom was the refusal of Lot to turn over his pre-teen female children for sex with visiting male adults, not for have sex with each other. In other words, the Bible clearly endorses pedophilia as we;;. I understand you apology for using certain words, but it seems to me that they provided the necessary shock value. The problem is that you are dealing with people who do not think--they do not ever use logic, they respond with intuitive feelings. Using logic on people who cannot even spell that word does not work. I am not sure what will, but I applaud your attempts to get them to think.
264
I really admire your honesty and your bluntness, even when it makes people mad. The apology for using the word "pansy-assed" was completely unnecessary. Honestly, I'm angry about it. That walk out was fucking pansy-assed, and so where the people who partook in it. I'm a lesbian and, like you, I am also on the receiving end of homophobic abuse backed by the Bible, and the last thing we should be doing is apologizing because attacking the Bible makes some pansy-assed Christians sad.

I don't agree with everything you say all the time. I've vehemently disagreed with some of the advice you've given on your podcasts, and that's okay. But the one thing I've always respected about you is that you tell it like it is, and say what you believe, even if you think it will make people uncomfortable or angry.

Don't be a pansy-ass. Stop apologizing and stand your fucking ground.
265
Homosexuality, is only 1% of this nations population. Homosexuals are redefining the family, to include all forms of sexual preferences, and they have demanded, that the 1964 Civil Rights Act, be amended, to make "sexual preference" a constitutionally protected right!

Not surprisingly, some in the African-American community feel, the minority status is being twisted to include bedroom-games, and, thereby, severely undermined.

I think that the LGBT really need to know, that there is another side to what the PRIDE is all about:

Gay Rights / Special Rights - Inside The Homosexual Agenda
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7…
266
@200- "Did Joseph Smith bully people when he discovered the tablets? "

No, he conned them. It's totally different.
267
Homosexuality is only 1% of this nations population - Homosexuals are redefining the family to include all forms of sexual preferences and, they have demanded that the 1964 Civil Rights Act be amended to make "sexual preference" a constitutionally protected right.

Not surprisingly - some in the African-American community feel the minority status is being twisted to include bedroom-games, and thereby, feel severely undermined.

I think that "LGBT people", really need to know that there is another side, to what their PRIDE'S all about:

Gay Rights / Special Rights - Inside The Homosexual Agenda
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7…
268
@265- The way you abuse commas ought to be criminalized.
269
Poor Dan.

It must be a living hell to be suffering with such an inferiority complex. I pity an individual that is so unsettled with themselves that they feel they need to wallow in the gutter of ridicule and mockery. Perhaps you are really attracted to woman and your hostility towards others is really a manifestation of your cravings for a woman.

Your point regarding hypocracy was a joke. It requires a series of distorted assumptions and it is a glaring example of yet another person who has no idea what the Bible says. Your arguement regarding "the bible has it wrong on slavery", would cause a present day slave to blush at your failure to understand the texts you qoute.

I am grateful to enjoy the friendship of other gay people in my life and am heartened to know that some actually are secure enough in their own life that they do not need to become a petty fearful little boy foundering around trying to verbally process their insecurities.

You got it wrong on this one Danny.

Mr D

PS..... Would you be willing to bloviate in front of a Local group of Muslims, since you seen hip on "pushing back."
270
@266. I was trying to explain to a Mormon how people come along and challenge the bible. Including their founder. As to the long con, you can make that judgement. I simply was pointing out that discussing the bible is a far cry from bullying.
But I'm sure none of these new posters honestly care.
271
@269. So is it okay with you for kids to bully gay kids based on the bible?
272
According to this statement you weren't even on topic:

http://studentpressblogs.org/nspa/?p=363

"Mr. Dan Savage had been invited to share with students the power of social media in today’s world as well as speak about the problem of bullying of gay youth, an issue all too familiar in many American schools. Mr. Savage’s comments on April 13 veered from the topic however. At a point in his speech he criticized the Bible, at times using vulgar language."

If this is correct then I think a Bible-bashing session was inappropriate. Even if it's not correct I think it was inappropriate. if we were discussing the Bible, I would be nodding in agreement and would likely also have some choice words about the Bible - particularly in how it's used to attack gays.

On one hand I think people shouldn't have been surprised - you are known as a bit of a potty mouth who doesn't mince words. But on the other hand I think it's a good idea to tailor your speech to a specific audience. An It Gets Better type of message might have been more appropriate in this case. The kind of rhetoric you chose to use might have been OK on Bill Maher. You should have known a vulgar lesson in the Bible and religious hypocrisy - while your usual schtick - probably wouldn't have gone over well at an event called the "National High School Journalist Conference".

I think there's a happy medium between taking things too far and not going far enough.
273
If there were one true religion, all the other religions would be bullshit. If we knew which religion was 'the true one,' such religion would be able to eliminate its opposition. Only problem is that there's no scientific or empirical way to know which religion is the true one. Only faith can tell. But faith is the basis by which each one of those religions claim the right to be the true one. Since religions tend to exclude each other, we must assume that there is no true religion but many forms of religion. Therefore, each form of religion contains some dose of 'bullshitness', otherwise, one of them would have conquered each and every soul in this godly Earth. In this particular case, when Dan said that there were some portions of the Bible that could be considered 'bullshit,' he was not proposing his own version of a true religion; he was just trying to instill some doubt into the believer's beliefs. And that was your mistake, Dan: Those so-sensitive-young-Christians who walked away were already convinced that their religion is the true one; they had previously believed that whatever you were going to say would be considered bullshit because you have declared yourself not to be Christian, which makes you a sinner and a suspect. And a target for the Right. Keep up the fight.
274
Quite frankly I firmly believe what you first said. Looking at the totality of your speaking it is quite clear you hate Christians or those that disagree with you. Keep up with the anti-bullying, that I agree with. Just try and keep your hatred for others out of your speeches.
275
265: If gays are so rare, all the more reason to quit fucking with them already.

You're contradicting yourself: either gay people are so rare that the abuse they suffer doesn't matter, OR they're so ubiquitous that letting them get married will shake the foundations of society and change the very definition of marriage as we know it. One or the other; those two things can't both be true at the same time.

That's the thing about people who don't share your obsession with obedience: we won't believe things simply because you say so. You have to earn our belief by presenting evidence, or at least by showing some logical consistency.

Besides, this thread isn't even about gay marriage. It's about bullying gay kids. Are you for it or against it? If you support bullying gay kids, then say so outright and quit disguising your opinions behind marriage issues like a coward. If you're against it, then you should agree with Dan: it's pathetic and dishonest when people use the bible to justify anti-gay bullying and then call themselves victims when they're challenged.

As I said before: if anti-gay people think this is equivalent to the torment that gay kids face, they are pathetically thin-skinned.
276
@271. No... its never "OK" to bully. If a person uses the bible to "bully" than they are distorting scripture as much as Dan did in his bloviating .... or should I say his bullying.
277
I am a Christian. So here's some of my random thoughts and observations:

1) first of all I don't believe that any one should be bullied; ridiculed or persecuted for who they are or what they believe. No one. Period. If someone claims to be a follower of Christ and then bullies someone than they are either not a true follower of Christ or is one that is terribly spiritually immature.

2) since when did the defination of TOLERANCE change? To be tolerant is the ability to get along with someone that you are not in agreement with. But now days it means if you are in disagreement than you are bigoted; homophobic and intolerant.

3) Why is it that Separation of Church and State means that a religous speaker cannot come into a public school and promote his faith (I agree with this believe it or not) but it doesn't preclude someone from coming in and demeaning someone's faith? That hypocrisy. 

4) Mr. Dan Savage if you are going to quote from scripture it would do you well to understand the Book you are quoting. You completely misrepresented the Bible in nearly everything you said. Yes the Bible is a very difficult book to interpet because it was written many years ago in a completely diffrent culture. It takes very careful study to make sure it's not misinterpeted. But either you don't understand the Bible or you do and are setting up straw man arguments against it.
For one the Bible does not promote slavery. It condemns slave traders (1 Timothy) and God delivers His people from slavery in Egypt. We must also understand that the slavery mentioned in the NT is much different from the form of slavery that we think of due to our unfortunate history of race relations. In the NT if one was in debt they could work it off by becoming a slave to someone. Paul wrote to the masters of those slaves and appealed to them to treat their slaves well as in Christ both the slave and the master were equals. This was radical and unheard of in this culture.
When one quotes the laws in Leviticus one must understand that there are differentl type of laws. There are moral laws (which always stand including sexual ethics) and then there are purity laws and dietary laws which were relevant to the culture. It is okay to eat a ham sand which these days but it is still a bad idea to commit adultery.

5) When I watch this video I see Dan Savage guilty of the very same thing that he is supposed to be speaking against. Add the cheering (taunting) of the crowd and this creates a very hostile environment for students of faith.  Is "pushing back" really the answer or is it just another step in the opposite extreme? How about teaching tolerance. ( there's that word again).

6) Many Christian's (myself included) believe that homosexual acts are a sin. That does not mean that this particular sin should be elevated above the rest. We should equally be against adultery and fornication without prejudice. It is hypocritical if we make some to be greater and others lesser based on our own feelings. 

7) "Hate the sin, love the sinner". I'm sorry if one is offended by that but that is what we are taught to do. And this applies to all types of sinners. Not that we are better than anyone. We aren't. We just believe in grace. And this should bring humility not bullying. In my life I can say that I have had friends and co-workers who were gay. My daughter's god mother is a lesbian. My great grand mother may have been. A cousin of mine died of AIDS. I have cherished them all as people. Hate is the furthest thing from my mind.

8) I will go a little further ( and many of my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ will disagree with me) but though I'm opposed to the very idea of gay marriage I'm not opposed to consenting adults making up their own minds on this and having the right to pursue this if they choose. Since we don't live in a theocracy.
278
I believe your comments at the conference were rude and inappropriate. It was bullying, pure and simple.
This is America, and you are free to remain free of Christ. However, He does love you and desire a relationship with all of you. I'm sorry you feel such anger and bitterness toward the Bible and Christians. I will pray for you.
279
The biggest challenge we face in life is to keep evil from reaching our soul and making use do evil. Dan Savage has failed such challenge as his soul is clearly full of hate and intolerance. I hope he finds peace but he no longer has the moral authority to be a champion for anti-bulling.
280
You have a legitimate complaint (e.g., bullying and harassment is wrong) but there is a disconnect...it almost feels like you were acting like a bully (using harsh language and demeaning people) in trying to counteract bad behavior. I don't necessarily see this as productive. I almost feel like you turned off the very people who need to hear you, because those who love you and agree with you are already listening.

Maybe starting with respect for different opinions is a better angle. Do they deserve respect? Doesn't everyone--no matter how different or odd--deserve respect? Or does your model of inclusion exclude people who disagree?

Besides, respect for those who are different than you models good behavior. It's the heart of anti-bullying. Seeing the Other as human. Having empathy. Refusing to dismiss or demean. You have a really great point, but for me, it would be hard to accept your message when your own actions don't match up.

Do you get a pass because of all the anti-gay bullying, the past wrongs of Christians, the injustices? I didn't know that anyone gets a "I get to bully you" card because they have a "I was bullied by you" pass. Seems wrong.

Just something to think about. Bullying does need to stop.

281
You homo
282
@276. That's a relief. How about extending the golden rule to gay kids? How about reminding parents that gay kids deserve to be treated with respect?
Back to Savage's point which so few seem to get, all that cussing isreally distracting but put it aside. In it's 2,000 years Christianty has changed its relationship toward the bible numerous times. Heck, look at Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation. It is not beyond the realm of belief that Christianty can change its perspective regarding the treatment of gays.
As far as slavery is concerned, within the context of the debate within the US. Both sides used the bible as the basis of the moral strength. People sometimes use the words of the bible to do awful things, to pretend otherwise is to ignore a huge chunk of Western History. Get over it and work on making the present a better place.
283
You have a legitimate complaint (e.g., bullying and harassment is wrong) but there is a disconnect...it almost feels like you were acting like a bully (using harsh language and demeaning people) in trying to counteract bad behavior. I don't necessarily see this as productive. I almost feel like you turned off the very people who need to hear you, because those who love you and agree with you are already listening.

Maybe starting with respect for different opinions is a better angle. Do they deserve respect? Doesn't everyone--no matter how different or odd--deserve respect? Or does your model of inclusion exclude people who disagree?

Besides, respect for those who are different than you models good behavior. It's the heart of anti-bullying. Seeing the Other as human. Having empathy. Refusing to dismiss or demean. You have a really great point, but for me, it would be hard to accept your message when your own actions don't match up.

Do you get a pass because of all the anti-gay bullying, the past wrongs of Christians, the injustices? I didn't know that anyone gets a "I get to bully you" card because they have a "I was bullied by you" pass. Seems wrong.

Just something to think about. Bullying does need to stop.

(sorry for double-post, it posted this as unregistered the first time)
284
Oh for fuck's sake. Yes, because I'm sure if everyone in the LGBT community reframed from using any so-called inappropriate language those fundies would just fall over themselves to give us our rights. You're falling into their trap if you think that way. They want us silent and submissive. Just look at the recent legislation to make it illegal to even say the word gay in some schools.
285
What I fin hilarious is that all of you actually think that to be Christian or Catholic is to be 100% devout to the Bible. Seriously, I mean seriously.

So, according to all of you to have faith in the Catholic or Christian faith and to be gay is not possible.

@264, girl you need some help if you feel that tortured. Go take a jujitsu class and get a make over.

Why don't we lay out on the line.

The truth is when you are a loser people can smell it on you. It starts with self-confidence and building on that. When you are strong and demand respect people will not threaten you. Power is derived from inside and once harnessed it is unstoppable.

You honestly think that you are going to stop kids from beating up or bullying other kids- can you say "Keep Dreaming".

Kids needs to learn to defend themselves instead of waiting to be rescued.

All of you are promoting WEAKNESS and making our gay youth WEAKER.

Thanks for making gays look like a religious hating group that only cares about shoving our lifestyle down other's throat.

I would love to see your ugly asses at XL.

It did not make sense why you would spout so much hate until I took look at your ugly ass.

286
@278. I'm pretty sure God will ignore your false piety. You guys need to learn what love means. It's about listening to the other side, not just mumbling some terse condensation.
287
Totally support you Dan! Religion is so much bullshit...
They took a beautiful message from an enlightened, ahead of his time prophet and
did what we humans usually do.
Fucked it up and got it wrong.
Love the Christ, hate the Christians!
288
As many have pointed out before, you are a example of how the pen can be mightier than the sword. Your words are selective, incisive, and well researched. Your contribution to Gay Rights, and your spot-on criticisms of organized Religion make me braver and more confident in my own daily battles. Keep up the good fight!
289
To cybythesea

I agree with most of your sentiments. Everyone deserves respect and noone should endure ridicule and disrespect. With regards to the link between gay bullying and "the bible", Dan made several mistakes and several assumptions.

Let me point out an ovbious one. When a popular 18 year old jock shoves a gay 17 year old into the lockers and calls him a "flamer", is he bullying because of his interpretation of Romans 1 or is he bullying because the gay kid is "different"

The stupid Jock probably cannot find even find the book of Romans.

Dan made a fallacious arguement and he probably knows it.

I would defend any kid getting bullying for any reason. I also will defend against shameless assertions that Dan so willingly blathered. Assertions that had NOTHING to do with bullying gay kids.

290
@277
"Yes the Bible is a very difficult book to interpet because it was written many years ago in a completely diffrent culture."

Why? Why wasn't the omniscient, omnipotent God able to get His message across in terms that could be understood today?

"For one the Bible does not promote slavery."

Wait for it ........

"We must also understand that the slavery mentioned in the NT is much different from the form of slavery that we think of due to our unfortunate history of race relations."

So the Bible does not promote "slavery" ...
But the Bible's usage of "slavery" was not that which was practiced in the USofA ...

Now you reference 1 Timothy. But you aren't very specific, are you?

1 Timothy
1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

2. Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

I'm guessing that you really don't know where the Bible condemns slavery because you couldn't reference it.

"Paul wrote to the masters of those slaves and appealed to them to treat their slaves well as in Christ both the slave and the master were equals."

Why did Paul skip the part about freeing the slaves and not keeping slaves any more?

"When I watch this video I see Dan Savage guilty of the very same thing that he is supposed to be speaking against."

Then you know nothing of the bullying that happens, do you?
291
When your "apology" is 124 words followed by 718 words of justification and reiteration, your "apology" is bullshit and pansy-assed.
292
KiP @261 et al.: Just want to give you a shout out for your courage and wisdom. Dan is often inviting Christians to speak the truth, and you have far more patience than I in these matters. You are a breath of fresh air and a cool drink of water throughout these heated debates. God bless you!
293
Funny that posters like comment 285 rail against Dan and then outright bully other commenters. Good job by not only proving yourself wrong but making an ass of yourself at the same time.
294
@289. You're reading into it too literally. Where did that hypothetical jock get this anger towards the gay kid? Most likely from his church. There's really no basis for gay bashing in the secular world. Every homophobe I've ever met, based their hatred on something some one taught them from the bible. You're absolutely right, that kid probably never read it.
But until Christians stand up and ask their flock to stop treating gays as evil. Gay kids will be bullied and many "responsible" adults will turn a blund eye. Just look at the many comments in this thread.
As I mentioned, there are many ways to read the bible, people should acknowledge that fact instead of getting all huffy when this very truth is shown.
295
Wow. You have become the very things you purport to fight against: a bigot and a bully.

I'm very disillusioned with you.

And disappointed.

You've undermined so much progress and good work.

It's too bad, really. More can be done with civility. Now your credibility is very damaged.

Good luck.
296
why don't you attack islam in the same fashion or even more?
muslim countries will KILL you for being gay and yet you say nothing about them.
Muslim countries allow women to be raped and then kill the woman for being unpure.
Yet we hear nothing from you on that. Are you too pansy assed to attack islam?
297
Great job using bullying to get your point across...you truly have learned how to push back.
298
Hey Dan!

My name is Diana A. I'm one of John Shore's fans. I just wanted to tell you that this Christian (me) wasn't particularly offended by anything you said in that speech. I actually thought you were pretty mild. I also think the kids who left were showboating.

Just thought I'd share my thoughts!
299
How ironic - Dan Savage wants to preach about hypocrisy. Spare me, Dan! You try to tout yourself as some anti-bully spokesperson but YOU are a bully! If the coordinators for The Trevor Project and NOH8 had any sense, they would cut all ties with you and find someone else to represent anti-bullying in the LGBT community, someone who would be able to spread a more positive message instead of the hate and vitriol that comes out of your mouth on a regular basis.
300
Hate the sin, not the sinner, don't bash, don't bully, don't persecute but don't tolerate sin either. It is what it is, and it IS a sin; if it weren't anything to be ashamed of, there never would have been a 'closet' to 'come out of' in the first place. Keep your sexuality to yourself; no one cares (except God, and He'll deal w/ those who do sin in His own time, on His terms, ie, the 7 Year Tribulation which is right around the corner....)
301
I didn't know who you were until today. I watched the 3 min 21 second video of you speaking to High School Students. It's clear to me you've hurt your own cause. After reading your quite limited "apology" I wonder how you expect others to be more respectful, compassionate and tolerant when you say what you've said. As best I can, I understand the seriousness of bullying and it's sad because I believe you've missed an opportunity. In the future please consider your audience, High School Kids were your audience on the video I watched. Best regards.
302
You misrepresented the Bible and I explain why on my You Tube Channel, Theist78. Please try to understand the Bible and ancient cultures before you make sweeping accusations. It is very dishonest.
303
@277 If we don't live in a theocracy, why do you think your religious convictions should have any baring on marriage law? Why should the US law, which is supposed to be secular, care what religion thinks?
304
Dan,
I'm wondering what your basis is for saying there are "untrue words or ideas" in the Bible? As a matter of fact there are no untrue words or ideas in the Bible. The Bible is truth, 100%, like it or not. Paul counseled Onesimus to return becuase of the laws of the day and not because God was pro slavery. The laws of the day have to be observed even more so if you're a Christian. I would ask you to consider something very truthfully and honestly, would you have said the same about the Koran in an all Muslim assembly?
Respectfully,
Tom

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