Comments

101
#91: Then get around to *proving* it, as was requested of you. Ms. Sarkeesian has a reputation in academic circles as a rigorous researcher. It's easy for you to say that she's just going to be confirming her own biases, but until you demonstrate otherwise, I'm going to bet that you have no basis for saying that.
102
He did, however, favorite a project on IndieGoGo researching misandry in video game media. http://www.indiegogo.com/individuals/576…

Yes, the man-hating portrayal of men in video games is certainly a huuuuuuuge problem.
103
That "misandry" project has some pretty harsh things to say about Ms. Sarkeesian:
This project does not constitute an attack on Anita Sarkeesian, nor should it be seen as a response to her work! Anita has done an amazing job, and it's really incredible to see so many people stand up for more diverse video games.

While our campaign may tread upon similar lines, we have no intention of encroaching upon Feminist Frequency's work, and urge you all whole-heartedly to head on over to http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/5664… to find out more. To Anita and her supporters we'd like to extend our warmest congratulations for smashing targets in such fantastic style, and we can't wait to see her upcoming work!
104
@98: When did I say Sarkeesian's project was a waste of time, or that the media was not covering it?

The point is that like all forms of expression, games cover a wide variety of social ideas, and are an expression of the culture that produced them. So demonizing one person, the subject of the article, for making a Flash game (which was almost instantly voted on so poorly it was removed, which is honestly a better expression of a gaming community than the one creator) is a waste of time. You need to be looking at developers and the wider audience to get to the bottom of the issue, not one outlying data point who happens to be really loud. Cutting one leaf off the plant does nothing...people like Jan Brewer are a real threat to women, cowards like Spurr are not.

I suppose it is a matter of opinion, but I do feel that half the government trying to take away women's rights to their bodies and very futures is a more important issue than portrayal in video games, but that is just me I guess. The root of misogyny comes from the power structure, portrayal in the arts is a by-product of that.

As a sidenote, you should probably know that I am quite well-versed in American feminist literature and philosophy, and have had several articles published in literary journals on the history of feminism in this country. I am not saying that this means I know what it is like to be a woman or a victim of rank sexism, but you should know that I am not the ignorant misogynist you want to see me as. I am talking about the narrow focus of the article, not the wide scope of the project itself, and I am not your enemy, disagreements on minor issues aside.
105
@3: or anything that involves getting onto a headset and talking to other people. Yeah, I love being screamed at by 12-year-olds who are hyped up on Mountain Dew. So much fun.
106
Looooove the mansplaining and concern-trolling in this thread. Top notch stuff from a bunch of supposed liberals
107
@104: Goodness, you're arrogant. Bragging that you've published a few articles doesn't help your argument at all. In fact it comes across as a rather presumptuous appeal to authority. Plenty of us on Slog, and plenty of people who think this issue matters enough to discuss, have fancy educations. I'll be perfectly straight with you: your dismissive attitude comes across as paternalistic. The fact that you've got some knowledge of feminism and still presume to tell women that issues directly affecting them "don't matter," and that you know better where they should focus, suggests that you've still got a lot to learn.

Your argument that "half the government trying to take away women's rights to their bodies and very futures is a more important issue than portrayal in video games" implies that this is a zero-sum game. It is not. We can, and should, be concerned with discrimination across the spectrum. I should not have to explain why. You say "The root of misogyny comes from the power structure, portrayal in the arts is a by-product of that" -- therefore, we should not bother critiquing the portrayal of anything in the arts? Nonsense.

Your comments on this thread show a surprising lack of curiosity for one who is purportedly so interested in the welfare of women. They also reveal your inability to view the Spurr story as representative of a wider problem that many people previously knew nothing about, and are very interested in learning more about. Here, right here, is an invitation to inform ourselves about the problem and discuss it if we choose. But instead of asking questions, you hand us a condescending judgment of one blogger's writing and research skills, and a cavalier response to your critics. I'm a teacher and a scholar too, btw, and I'm telling you -- you missed the point.

I'll say one more thing: I wouldn't be wasting my time with this if I thought you were stupid and ignorant. I think you're smart, and I generally enjoy and appreciate your comments. I just see too clearly how badly you misfired on this one.

You want an example of an intelligent, compassionate, ego-free response? Right here:
http://vimeo.com/44117178#
108
@107: Unsure why you think I have an inability to see the Spurr story as a large issue, when a large chunk of my last comment was about how it is a broader issue, and focusing individually on Spurr is fairly pointless. I fully understand why misogyny is an issue in the arts, and why it is harmful to women, I simply think that Spurr is not a real problem, and is simply another in a parade of immature dumbasses who will soon be forgotten.

Also, your suggestion that my statement meant we should not critique any form of art is grossly reductionist. The meaning behind that statement is that until you are actually engaging with the power structure that sets the foundation for such misogyny, you are merely chopping off another of the Hydra's many heads. I have no problem with any intellectual endeavor, and I never once said that this project or discussion of it was a bad thing .

I simply think that we should be more concerned with WHY these portrayals exist rather than the fact that they do exist. Because they have existed and been much worse before video games came around. Hell, if you really want to focus on media that harms women, you should be marching on the publishers of Cosmo, torches in hand. I would join you.

I really can not believe simply suggesting that one article, completely unconnected to the actual project at hand was poorly written, gets me labeled as supporting Spurr or hating on women. Thinking one article was poorly done does not mean I do not understand what misogyny is or fail to grasp the issue at hand. The fact that such images exist is deeply tied to the history and marketing of video games, and the article completely misses this mark. This is a much bigger factor than the actions of Spurr, or gamers themselves.

Finally, elucidating my academic background was not in order to suggest I should be taken as truth, but merely because you accused me of loving myself so much that I have never heard anything said by a woman. I wanted you to realize that this was untrue, and I have spent many hours deeply engaged in the words and ideas of many women who are smarter than you, and smarter than me.
109
@100: I guess that, having an amazing opportunity dropped in her lap, it'd be nicer to see something proactive done than something reactive. I'm pretty sure female gamers would prefer a high quality female-friendly game put on the market more than they'd like a deconstruction of the market with no actual change.

Then again, if you could point me to a group of aspiring feminist flash game developers or the like, I'd be very appreciative. Something with less focus on deconstructing what everybody else does (with the implied message that fixing things is everybody else's job), more trying to proactively push out positive messages on their own.
110
@109 it would be nice, yes, but is that really a reasonable request of this particular circumstance?

We have a female gamer who likes games but dislikes the portrayal of females in the game industry. She also has a skillset that lets her create documentaries...so why shouldn't she combine them.

The problem with someone in the game developer industry making a game based solely on the idea of misogyny would be that it would likely tank and be a career killer. The industry as a whole is still hard for women to break into. For them to take the risk without the support of the community (support created hopefully by documentaries like these) it would be incredibly difficult.

Also, to solve the issue, developers don't need to create a game entirely based off the idea, and a game based on the idea likely wouldn't be good (central theme should still revolve around gameplay and story equally). They just need to realize that when they place a female character in the game, she doesn't have to be a 1-Dimensional set of eye candy.
111
Good god people. That there is ANY debate about this AT ALL gives me little hope for the survival of humanity.

106 is right; read your comments out loud and pretend someone else is saying it. Do you hear what you sound like?
112
@108, I did not say you were supporting Spurr or hating on women. I said you were being paternalistic. Oh my god will you just own it?

I am unsure why a lone doof making flash games has gotten so much attention when there are actually people trying to take basic rights away from women. Focus on what actually matters

No, you did not say the project or discussion of it was "a bad thing." But the fact that this guy did what he did, and bloggers have been reporting on it, is the reason there is any discussion at all. Yet you said, very clearly albeit indirectly, that it didn't matter, that it was "pointless," and this blogger (and by extension Cienna, for posting it) should be focusing on something else. Meanwhile, the story has taken off -- it was on CBC, for Christ's sake. Everyone and their dog has heard that there's a backlash against girl gamers online, there's a new, fucked-up space where misogyny is festering and should not go unchallenged. And you're saying, oh, ignore that; you should be posting about Jan Brewer, or Republican policymakers, or other stuff that I deem worthy. And I'm saying, that's paternalistic, it's not helpful, and it's a reason why you're not getting a positive response on this thread. The issue of threats of violence against women online matters, because it affects a lot of women online (i.e., it's not just about one "lone doof"). Death threats, rape threats, posting contact info, trashing your website and wiki... these things fucking matter. You should be encouraging -- or at the very least, not disparaging -- when women (and men) want to talk about it.
113
Theodore, listen to Irena, you've utterly missed the point.
114
@112: I certainly agree that violence against women, rape, threats etc., is a problem, and I do not begrudge communication on any matter, but Spurr is just a troll, really. A hugely successful troll, as you certainly have shown with your examples of media coverage. He admitted to being a troll, as he stated that his reasoning for making the game was to get a reaction from Sarkeesian.

I understand why he is a bad person, I just do not understand why he is being singled out as this great threat/problem (other than the fact that the story has legs I guess). He is just another troll, like the ones everyone is supposed to ignore because they are clearly just full of shit.

My point is, conversations about these issues is ongoing and Spurr was no threat to their continued existence, as is easily seen with Sarkeesian's success. If one is going to single out Spurr, one may as well attempt to track down everyone on Xbox live or Twitter that makes a misogynistic comment. This is what I mean when I say that Spurr himself does not matter...the fact that many people share his sentiments matters greatly, but demonizing him as an individual really does not advance the debate, or get anyone anywhere, aside from maybe some needed catharsis.

There are people in every debate who exist simply to drag everyone's feet (the religious right regarding marriage equality for instance) and slow progress, and focusing on their warped ideas is a distraction more than anything, because they are designed to be a distraction, designed to halt communication. They succeed when the conversation stops to focus on their insanity.

Discussion about any women's issue is great, discussion about Spurr's individual actions is not very fruitful, as there is really nowhere for it to go after "well that guy is an asshole who I hope does not breed, now how can we stop other people from thinking this way."

115
Geeks live by the "all's fair in love and war" motto, and this guy has achieved everything he set out to do. He's gotten her attention and completely diverted the public from her original issue of concern (with an ironic hyperbole of the very same issue). It's a masterful stroke by a very bright man who is also probably a pretty awful guy.
116
I'm not advocating or defending any position, but it is true that both women and men that write for the Stranger have done similar "joking" calls for people to be beaten or killed, so I guess I don't understand why what is good for the goose, is not good for the gander...

If we are truly feminists, we will treat each other equally and abandon any special privilege ideology, frankly, from my years of boxing, a few of the most painful punches I received were from the fist of a woman sparring partner, therefore, I don't think it particularly more damning to threaten the beating or death of a man, or a woman. It is simply impolite at the least, and just wrong and criminal at the worst. I'm a feminist, so I believe that the woman in question should just go punch the man that made the game. I bet he'd not think it funny any longer. I encourage her to fist fight, for her honor, and for feminists everywhere, myself included.
117
@115: WTF? He's not a bright man. Look at his tweets, for God's sake. "masterful stroke"? Your kidding, right? BTW, he never succeeded in getting what he wanted from Sarkeesian, which was a conversation (!). As for diverting the public's attention from her original issue -- uh, maybe you missed the part where he inadvertently brought a ton of public attention and funding to that very issue?

I'm getting tired of giving my own attention to the stupid on this thread, when so many men and women get it. doceb @55, I gotta tell you I appreciate that "fair enough." I consider that progress.
118
@114: Theodore, I'll lay it down. I think you're speaking from a place of entitlement, where you have the luxury of regarding this problem as academic, as an abstract debate, and not as a reality of many women's lives. I also think you're being obtuse, for example by implying that Spurr succeeded in getting the reaction he wanted from Sarkeesian, when in fact he didn't. He wanted, and I quote, "A direct response from Sarkeesian. I was hoping this would be enough to start a conversation with her." He didn't get it. You got this wrong because you didn't bother to actually finish that article you dismissed so thoroughly in your first comment, and you're continuing to get things wrong because you are dismissing everything I, and all the other more succinct commenters who object to you, say. Your argument that we should not bother demonizing this guy is an argument to allow his behaviour to become normalized, an argument that feminists rejected from the get-go (check your notes on the history of women's lib in America). Having a voice and calling out hateful behaviour in whatever form it takes is a hallmark of feminism and a hallmark of resistance in any rights movement.

Also, that you think giving attention to the religious right's efforts against marriage equality is a distraction that halts communication and slows progress leads me to believe that you simply have no idea what's going on with these movements you say you support. It also leads me to wonder why the hell you come on Slog, since by your definition, Dan Savage is actually working against the progress of gay rights by calling attention to this crap. This, despite the fact that he's become an well-known and influential activist for gay rights precisely because he speaks up and speaks loudly.

A couple more things. You said,
"My point is, conversations about these issues is ongoing and Spurr was no threat to their continued existence, as is easily seen with Sarkeesian's success."
Of course Spurr wasn't a threat to the conversation's existence. The wider discussion, and Sarkeesian's success, happened because people started blogging and talking about him. He inadvertently offered them a perfect noisy, ugly, attention-getting tool to push the discussion into the mainstream. How are you not getting this?

And:
"If one is going to single out Spurr, one may as well attempt to track down everyone on Xbox live or Twitter that makes a misogynistic comment."
Yes! Yes, that's exactly what we are being encouraged to do -- to call it out every time it happens, just like we should do with any other kind of bullying, racist, homophobic, what have you. What you are advocating is that the people affected by this stuff, the bullied as well as the bystanders, stay silent. You are wrong, and you are wrong because you don't really have any clue what it's like to be a member of a bullied group, and you refuse to listen to people who do.

So you really need to stop pretending that you're some sort of authority on this matter, and you really, really need to stop telling people how they should deal with prejudice when you've never been subjected to it and you aren't particularly interested in listening to those who have.

By the way, I hope you got delightful compliments on those articles you published. Nice to have that feather in your cap.
119
@Theodore, I don't quite get why you're being so obtuse, read what Irena is saying, not what you think she is saying. You seem to have this idea that this has all been about trashing Spurr. If you had read the article a little more carefully, you'd see that this is not the case. The author comments:

A lot of people have expressed feeling bad about this pile on, and I’m sure countless others are wondering why I took the time to document such a basic example of standard ignorance/misogyny. The answer is that these beliefs are so prevalent that I cannot ignore them. Spurr isn’t the only person who thinks threatening violence—even virtual—is an appropriate response to someone ignoring him. In fact, there are a lot of men who feel entitled to all kinds of things because they grew up in a culture that tells them that’s the way it is.


It ain't about Spurr, all along it has been about the wider problem Spurr represents and has brought to the fore with his asshattery.

Also, it's incredibly obnoxious to dictate how you think women should go about Feminism. If you are as knowledgeable about Feminism as you claim (and I don't doubt your claim), you should be able to take a step back, read what you've written, and acknowledge the entitlement and condescension in your words. Clearly you are intelligent and educated. Act it.
120
Before this disappears off the "Top Commented" list I just want to say that if you are mad about Feminist Frequency or this kickstarter, or if you are defending this "game" or Ben Spurr you really need to take a few days off, go on a little personal retreat, and deeply examine your motivations.
121
114,
I think you're an idiotic feminist scumbag and I don't give a flying fuck about your opinions or thoughts are. They don't matter and you don't matter. So why not try keeping your fat mouth shut? No one want's to hear you come on here spewing out your fucking idiotic feminist nonsense.
---"I'm getting tired of giving my own attention to the stupid on this thread, when so many men and women get it"---
If you can't handle the argument or tired of arguing, kindly STFU! You're the one who kept it going, you moron. Take a cue from Sarkeesian and don't respond.
You wanna talk entitlements? Women are by far the most entitled gender to ever walk the face of the earth. That is a FACT! I can give so many examples of this, it's not even funny! It's truly hilarious when you feminists try to turn the tables on the subject of who's entitled. Look in your own mirror, you wench: That's who thinks they're entitled.
---"Your argument that we should not bother demonizing this guy is an argument to allow his behaviour to become normalized..."---
So then it's okay to bully him? You just totally lost all credibility with me with that statement. No one wants to work with some intransigent cunt, like you. Who are you to take anyone to task? You should practice what you preach, bitch.

---"check your notes on the history of women's lib in America"---
You're a dumbass. You have no idea how the Women's Lib movement began or what purpose it truly serves and who's really behind it. Irena- you're what they call a ***USEFUL IDIOT!***
---"Having a voice and calling out hateful behaviour in whatever form it takes is a hallmark of feminism and a hallmark of resistance in any rights movement."---
I mean, again, you're a dumbass. I have to say that right off the bat to just about every single thing you say. I have to say that over and over and over again to you. You're also one sick and twisted dumbass too because on another article/video- I kid you not everyone- this sick monster Irena literally said that a mother kissing her baby boys' penis is a "very sweet" thing!! WHAT??!! You are one sick fucking piece of shit, madam. And I would say that in your fuckin face, bitch! (yeah, I'm willing to take this off the internet because you are A SICKO). That's called CHILD MOLESTATION! You should hang your head in shame, and not be allowed to teach, you pedophiliac piece of human trash. You should be locked up in a prison some where and have the key thrown away. You're just the type of evil scum we have coming up to rule the world. Real scary.. The kind that thinks it's okay to harm our children. You're a monster.... (Note: I kid you not, this is the umpteenth feminist that I've heard making disturbing statements and claims in which they've basically marginalized or almost CONDONED child abuse against young boys! Sick Fucks is what they are).
And if you feminists truly decry hateful behavior, why are feminists the most hateful group of people I've EVER encountered? WHY IS THAT?! And this is long before I actually discover that they're actually feminists too.

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