Comments

1
I think you mean "I'd pick the latter if I were you."
2
Sounds as though you would pick the latter, not the former.
3
I got nothin' on the letter, but that's an awesome headline.
4
she totally gave the trainer a blowjob.
5
Um, did you mean "I'd pick the *latter* if I were you" there?

Especially after you said "Choose the former and you may wreck your marriage, choose the latter—even if you have to will yourself to choose it, even if you have to fake it until you feel it—and you may save your marriage."

I'm assuming you aren't telling HDIMSOT to wreck his marriage.
6
I think his wife is AWESOME and just SAID she jerked the other guy off BC she knew it would turn him on.
7
@6 That crossed my mind also. Something about a "5-minute through the clothes" handjob doesn't sound quite right, at any rate.
8
@6 and 7: I was thinking the same thing, especially given that the letter writer described her "confession" as halting. I got the feeling that she knew he was turned on, decided to try to talk a little dirty, but hadn't thought out the story all the way.
9
I agree with letting her know that his actual feelings are more complex than he thought they'd be. Seems to me this would be pretty common in this type of situation - the big turn-on that goes too far when it's real - and being honest about both sides of it will only strengthen their connection.

And, yeah, could be she was just doing some fantasizing there, too.
10
All I know is there's no way--assuming this actually happened and wasn't just a fantasy she made up on the fly--that it stopped at a through-the-shorts handy. No way.
11
Please someone go through this response and proofread it. The "you may wreck your marriage or you may wreck your marriage" sentence was only the tip of the iceberg.
12
Oh, what complicated things we humans be!
13
@ 10 Why is that, could be she did it then felt guilty after and stopped right?
14
Over the shorts my ass.

15
I'm more skeptical that she would just grab his dick for a second and that's it, than that she would jerk him off through the shorts. Regardless, she's a CPOS and I'm surprised Dan doesn't call her out as such. And Dan is incorrect in telling the writer to retroactively apply his permission- the writer never once signed off on the wife getting some on the side- just the fantasy of it. I'd have some serious trust issues too if I were the writer.
16
Isn't this the Matthew Modine/Julianne Moore plotline in "Short Cuts"?
17
Yeah, sounds like she might have done the elaboration about the handjob as part of a dirty, made-up story to get him off. Might not have happened at all. Or maybe it did, but you won't know if you jump on her about it. (You might never know for certain if you do - but what you know for certain is that you have an otherwise great marriage, so run with that.)
18
Wife has told two lies so far. If LW keeps telling her how turned on he is, I predict the truth will gradually unfold roughly as follows:
- grabbed her trainer's dick once for a split second
- jerked him off over his shorts
- jerked him off under his shorts
- jerked and sucked him a little bit
- went to his place and jerked, sucked, and fucked him
- fucked him in ever imaginable configuration on a regular basis
19
@18, I agree that she'd gradually unfold more and more of that story, but I also agree with those who think it equally likely that she is making it up as she goes along because of how much she can tell it excites him. If he wants to know the truth, he might try talking to her about it when they're not in bed.
20
Whether or not she's making it up, (and I think she is) he should convince himself that she's making it up, but also let her know that she shouldn't have any more "revelations" in the future.
21
@19: It's an interesting theory, but I find it hard to believe someone would tell a partner they cheated when they hadn't, unless they were angry and trying to hurt them, which doesn't seem to the case here.

Sure, he says he's turned on, but still, I don't think she'd fuck with his mind about a heavy topic like this.
22
@10: "On the fly" -- I saw what you did there.
23
@15: Dan is being consistent in his, not permission, but retroactive forgiveness for mild, past transgressions if there is regret and changed behavior. "Marriage is not a deposition." and "Successful marriages are built on a solid foundation of lies and deceit."

If the wife diddled the trainer, felt guilty, went back to hubbie, and never did anything like that more than 2-3 times during the marriage, then that is a successful marriage.

Such a spouse is not ALLOWED to burden their partner with the knowledge of their occasional straying behavior, just to relieve their guilt. They are required to STFU and soldier on.

But here we have a husband who enticed his wife to reveal such past actions (real or imagined) and now is at the cusp of throwing a hissy fit. He needs to figure out exactly what kind of stories he wants to hear, let his wife know, and find a way to frame this so he can stuff it down his own memory hole (and the very likely fictional aspect of the "HJ through shorts" is an obvious path forward for him to take).
24
If she is not making it up, my guess is that she's done alot more than this.
25
I call bullshit. She didn't just give a handjob--she fucked this guy in actuality, and is now looking for a convenient and diplomatic way to ease it off her conscience.

Not that I'm blaming/shaming her by any means-- but I think that's how it is, and if the LW is as truly turned on by his wife being with another man as he says he is, he better brace himself for this. And Dan's advice is still spot on.
26
Man everybody is so cynical
27
I dunno about what goes on in your gym but if a trainer were working closely with a client in my gym and both suddenly engaged in a hand job session for 5 minutes in the middle of the gym, *people would notice*. And there are security cameras too, you know.

I buy the wife flirtingly grabbed his cock for a second, but I think she made the rest up in the moment to keep him hot.
28
I think he's got a legitimate problem. She just told him that she gave a handjob to some other guy at a time when that sort of activity was supposedly an official violation of vows. What she just admitted to was, by the rules in force at the time, nothing short of flat-out cheating on him.

While I think he should figure out how to forgive her, she does indeed have something to answer for. (And no, she does not have the right to feel "violated" herself for feeling tricked into confessing her transgression. That's no better than the cheater who goes on the offensive when the cheated on partner snoops in his email. That tactic is DTMFA-worthy.) If he lets this eat at him, yes, it will destroy his marriage, but I don't think he would be in the wrong to sit the two of them down for a conversation that goes something like, "You did something behind my back that was completely against the rules AT THE TIME. In other words, you basically just told me you are untrustworthy. What else haven't you told me about, and what are you going to say to persuade me to trust you again?" That can absolutely be part of the conversation where he says, "You know, I just found out about myself that this makes good fantasy material, but in real life, it makes me feel ill."

Of course, as others have mentioned, all of the above assumes it's not fictional. Both the details and her delivery as described in the letter hint that she may have been indulging in a little coital improvisation in order to turn him on. (I don't believe for a second that she jerked the guy off through his clothing for 5 minutes on a spur of the moment whim. That sounds like a badly thought out detail.) I would advise the letter writer to very seriously consider that possibility before opening up with a salvo on her infidelity. You can have the conversation in any case about it only being good spank material, but too close to real life makes you hurt, and that may well afford her the opportunity to tell you it was just fiction, without having to accuse her of anything. If she does claim that, and if you want your marriage to recover, I would suggest you figure out a way to believe her.
29
Good God monogamy is tedious. When are we going to recognize this?
30
@21...yeah she would.
My hubs and I used to get massages at Habitude every Sunday eve and one massage therapist was super hot and clearly turned my hubby on. Knowing it would get him hot,I told him a naughty little story about how while she was rubbing me down it turned really naughty. Will spare you the details. Worked. Turned him on and I'm pretty sure he knew I made it up....for his benefit.
31
@24/25: If she fucked him, neither the fucking nor the 5 minute handjob could credibly have happened at the gym. The details of the story so far are frankly straining suspension of disbelief. Maybe she is working up to admitting what actually happened, but it's at least as likely that she's just not very good at improvising a narrative (in the middle of being banged by hubby, no less).
32
@26 Because people lie, cheat, and fuck around, that's why. What column have you been reading all these years?
33
I think she made it up. It may be something she did with a guy in high school years ago or something, and she moved it forward and heated it up to turn his crank. I know that's what I do, at least--I'm not good at making stuff up on the fly, so I just pick old, true stories from my single life and change the details enough to make them fit my husband's fantasies.
34
@32 This one, and yes they do but sometimes they only take it so far. Cmon not everyone cheats around all the time and goes all the way.
35
@ 29 Works for some people, you should escape the SLOG bubble and realize it. Sure not for everyone but plenty of happy monogamous couples out there.
36
HDIMSOT,

Hoisted on his own petard.

As always, be careful what you wish for....

Peace
37
I am pretty sure teasing your wife like that and then getting butt hurt is a federal offense. Your lucky you aren't from the west coast where states would have locked you up for 30 days in county.

Retroactive permission?

Fuck that! if she doesn't give somebody other than her husband a hand job with olive oil, then it needs to be a blow job.

You shouldn't mess with your wives head like that, if he doesn't thank her for trusting him enough to tell him that, he doesn't deserve her.
38
My, have we stuck a nerve.

I can tell you, as a woman with a partner who shares similar fantasies, that I have made up *all kinds* of shit when we're in bed to turn him on. A few things have hurt him, of course after he gets off, and we talk through it. I reassure him it's not true, love him, tell him how amazing he is, and he gets over it.

Fantasies are amazing and sexy and fun, but most people need some kind of aftercare. Especially when the fantasies are things that hit home at our deepest fears: rape, betrayal, violence against us. We should hold a lot of forgiveness around the playing out of these fantasies, especially if we have not made our boundaries clear beforehand. It's super common for there to be misunderstandings and hurt feelings.
39
@38 *Aftercare. Love it!
40
If you're happily married to a GGG woman after 10 years of marriage and kids then just count your blessings and consider the crime well beyond the statute of limitations.

If it helps, consider it your get a of jail free card for when you screw up sometime in the future.
41
A textbook example of Figure Your Shit Out Before You Act. Not to mention Careful What You Wish For.
42
@41, or, alternatively, acknowledge that life & sex have risks. Work on your resilience (through meditation, therapy, getting enough sleep, etc.) so you can cope when things go wrong, rather than needing everything to go perfectly.
43
@43: True. I meant no judgment, just that when changing up the game one should proceed with caution.
44
You people are so. fucking. stupid.

Our heart aches for you.

Numbingly boringly common story:

Hipster thinks he wants to dabble in poly.

Dabbles and gets his ass burned.

Whines to Danny.

repeat.

ad nauseam....

Let us point out that any male who thinks he wants his wife to cheat etc is seriously fatally damaged goods as a man.

You may now resume your deviancy and perversion.....
45
@38 FTW. Excellent comment and the one most likely applicable in this situation. Chill out, LW and thank FSM you married the woman you did.
46
Or perhaps the guy's wife didn't really give that man a handjob at all. Maybe once her husband reacted so well to the just-a-second story (which may have been true), she made up a more extreme story because she thought he would like to hear it. This might be the case or it might be something useful that the man may convince himself.
47
@44: Is it heart or loins?
48
Danny must have been drunker 'n usual when he wrote this one. Even after corrections, there are still some major grammatical errors in there. At-risk-tech-savvy youth sleeping on the job?
49
@secretagent: Fantasies are amazing and sexy and fun

Sure they are, but the wife is pitching this stuff as real, not fantasy or dirty talk. Have you ever lead your man to believe you cheated on him when you really didn't? Would you do that?
50
I can't imagine any way a "5 minute through the shorts hand job" would feel good. She's making it up, either for fantasy purposes or because she really went much further.
51
Can the troll who uses "we" and "gomorrah" be a westborro babtist?
52
@49 Horny people aren't good at thinking, especially while actually having sex. If she made up a story, and he believed it, while both of them were operating with somewhat iffy mental capacity at the time, then couldn't you see this playing out as it has? Besides, he's been asking her to cheat on him. If she's reluctant to do so, stories are totally the way to go.
53
Have to say I disagree with this one, the wife cheated. That may line up with what you now think is hot, but it didn't at the time - or at least, she didn't know it did at the time. I wouldn't give retrospective permission, these kinds of fantasies can be delicate. If she's telling the truth, she's taking advantage of your kink to get this off her chest and not let you make her feel bad about it. The intent is what matters.

That being said, I think she made it up.
54
I'll be the 40th or so to admit to reading this and immediately thinking "sounds like she's making it up as a fantasy to please him."

@seandr: All the details he gives about what he wants are real life. Not "let's talk about you with a fictional character" but her with real men, he wants to know if any real men she meets now come onto her, etc. That she only tells him this during sex (worst possible time to have a serious talk about confessing an affair) is another indication that she's trying to give him what he seems to want. Up until the aftermath of this last time it worked great--in fact, he is the one who brought it up during sex, in what sounds like a very "so more details, what else happened?" way.

And I agree with Dan and a few others that this is a strong sign he won't find the reality of her with someone else fun, and he should make that clear. Sometime other than mid-sex.
55
Once again, not all fantasies are as good as they look. Sometimes it's better to leave the dragon in her sleep before she burns us with the fire of desire. It all looks so hot and beautiful while horny but the after-cum feeling might be bewildered with guilt and regrets.
56
HDIMSOT: Tell your wife--NOT when you're in bed--that you've been thinking about the her-and-her-trainer fantasy you guys used the last couple of times, and while it was very hot in the moment you increasingly find the idea of her with a real-life other man distressing. And you want to stop this element of sex play.

If she was confessing a past incident of cheating--and I really, really don't think she is--then this gives you a way to put it back in the memory hole for both of you, a bit of plausible deniability and future information about good boundaries to observe. If she was playing a sex game with you--each time you brought up the story-to-date mid-sex she'd do some variation of "well that's not REALLY all that happened, also there were leprachauns"--then she isn't going to feel jerked around when you decide the fantasy she created for your benefit is proof she's a cpos.
57
Also, seandr, all the hotwifing/cuckoldry fantasies I've heard about, mostly here, involve real guys the wife knows. His friends, her boss: the could-really-happen element seems to be important. No one seems to do Superman or George Washington. Which is why it seems very plausible that what she would make up to feed his fantasy would be believable cheating.
58
I will put my vote in for made up. @49, I don't think that it would be effective to point out that it is made up. Have you ever participated in impromptu role playing/fantasizing? I think that it is clear from the context without having to point it out and in fact, pausing to point out that it is just a fantasy would definitely take the momentum out of the encounter. I bet the wife would be shocked to know that the husband thought it was real.
59
What a fucking crybaby loser!
60
@56, I agree that they should talk about the issue outside the bedroom and confirm with each other that this is just fantasy and no one is really getting extramarital sex. But they may be able to keep on sharing the fantasy in bed, after they have the clarifying conversation. I was freaked out when my husband started talking about getting me pregnant again (and/or having someone else get me pregnant), but after we had a calm, non-sexual conversation about it, I was able to get into the fantasy and we've had fun with it since then.
61
I find it extremely sketchy that his wife drastically changed her story once he said he got turned on by it instead of upset. What else is she lying about?
62
Oh, please. I've been with men who were desperate -- DESPERATE!! -- to hear about "all the past girl-on-girl action" that I've done. I mean, not-being-able-to-come-unless-I-spill-the-goods-desperate. Considering that I have done exactly nothing with women, and it's not my thing anyway, I made up all kinds of shit just to get them off. And it worked like a charm. The annoying part is that for some people, there is exactly one go-to fantasy that works, and it gets old really, really fast. I think she made that up to get him hot.
63
@IPJ: No one seems to do Superman or George Washington.

Oh, I'm sure someone does.

Which is why it seems very plausible that what she would make up to feed his fantasy would be believable cheating.

I guess so. Still, I can understand this guy's confusion. If my wife told me in the middle of one of our kitty cat scenes that her great grandfather was, in fact, a cat, I'd feel both turned on and sick to my stomach, too.
64
@36 People can be hoist by their own petard or hoist with their own petard, but they cannot be hoist on their own petard. A petard is a bomb (or a fart)
65
This guy got off lucky. Better to realize that he doesn't actually want to be cuckolded in this relatively benign way.
66
well the guy said she "stepped way over the line", so i'm not even sure if the stuff he wanted her to talk about involved her fucking other dudes. sounds more like he likes to hear about guys hitting on her and any sexy thoughts she might have about the situation.

Letting your trainer grope you and then jerking him off is a completely different situation. I hope she was making it up, because if not it's definitely an acceptable reason for the guy to divorce her.
67
@pemulis,

The usage I've encountered used on rather than with or by; I stand corrected.  In any case, the meaning of catastrophically damaging oneself through one's own actions should be clear.

Peace
68
Seandr, no, I've told him other, similar scary/hurtful/hot things that aren't true. Things that turn him on (like adultery) when we're fucking but that would be awful to him should they be true. I can't give you an example as he prefers me not to, but I can tell you that most men would want to throttle me if I said to them half of the things I've said to him.

I'n not sure why you're reluctant to pick up this one, though I'm sure you understand how fantasy works. For example, I don't actually enjoy sexual assault and my partner believing me to be a whore in our everyday life would devastate me, but threatening me in bed and telling me all kinds of stories about what I'll have to do really turns me on. Some guys like to be insulted in the worst ways, but if their lover actually believed they were a pathetic lover or incompetent worm, they'd be hurt and sad and alienated, after they get off of course. Not all women are angels, but the whole jumping to "she fucked him, she's a liar" etc. has a bit of a whiff of misogyny.
69
@67 I've heard it that way too. That's why I always thought a petard was a flagpole or something, until I happened to look it up for no particular reason. I was just being an ass yesterday. Sorry for the snark.
70
seandr's et al comments distilled:
Man fools around on woman = she doesn't put on enough of a good show for him
Man doesn't fool around = it only counts if someone hot propositions you
Woman fools around on man = CPOS! Lies! Multiple lies!! No excuses!!!

Yeah, Dan got it right. It is a violation to bitch out your wife for something that made you orgasm, after the fact. Not because his feelings are wrong, but because he made a big deal about liking it and it got him off. If a woman said she was turned on by a man going to a strip club and talked it up, and then he finally admits that he DOES go to strip clubs which gets her off, she can't turn around post coitus and tell him that he was wrong for going to strip clubs because the thought of another woman grinding on him makes her ill (when she's not horny).
71
@66, anyone can divorce for any reason, but if the relationship otherwise makes him very happy, he might not want to end it over one long-ago infidelity (if it happened at all).
72
The truth will out. It took the wife 10 years to haltingly tell HDIMSOT about this. This has raised doubt in what WAS a trusting relationship. Provided this is true, at some level HDIMSOT has to wonder what else hasn't she told him. The timing of the event (shortly after they were married) must be disconcerting. While this ancient history for the wife, HDIMSOT is processing this as a current event. He may be questioning the entire relationship/marriage. Even if there is nothing else, how does the wife convince HDIMSOT of that. May be some one else has an answer because I have no clue how she can do it.

Apparently HDIMSOT,as Dan surmised, is not as cool with his wife being with another man in reality rather than in fantasy . Buyer's remorse perhaps or something that seemed hot in the heat of the moment, but not after the fact. They need to have a serious heart to heart and possibly couples counseling before this spins out control.

Several questions for the female posters. How many of you have journals and would you write about something similar in them. If yes why? Even if it is never read while you are alive, it has the potential to cause great harm unless you destroy it before you die or plan to be buried with it. Secondly, would you talk about it with your friends or family? Again, why?
By doing so you give that person(s) power over you. Two can share a secret if one of them is dead.
73
@72 >> HDIMSOT has to wonder what else hasn't she told him >>

You can either drive yourself obsessing about getting every speck of truth, or you can realize that in the end we never can know someone else completely, and accept your partner as a flawed but wonderful person.
74
One night when one of my girlfriends kissed/fondled me, I told my BF about it as soon as I got home. He was so turned on about it, that we ended up having sex and I gave him a graphic account of "what happened" between me and my girl friend during the sex, which he totally go off on. But the story I told in the heat of the moment wasn't true. I totally exaggerated for, what I believed was, his benefit. Then immediately afterward, he started using it against me by calling me a cheater and a slut, and a dyke, etc. He wouldn't believe me when I tried to explain myself. So, it is plausible that her story was made up to excite him.
75
@75: Your (hopefully) ex-boyfriend sounds like an epic douche.
76
Erica P

The classic examples are to find out your spouse fucked some one else the day or night before the wedding or before they moved in together. HDIMSOT does not specify what he meant by shortly after they were married. For arguments sake, say it was during the honeymoon stage. He just found that his wife broke her marriage vows before the ink was dry (metaphor) on their marriage license. I know you (not you you) can't control who you are attracted to, but still this has to have a chilling effect on their marriage. Any successful marriage requires compromises, but the wife's actions so long ago were completely over the top.
77
@71

Yeah I agree with you, I'm not saying he SHOULD/HAS TO divorce her, I'm just saying that if he decides that the cheating is too much, he's fully justified in his decision, regardless of when it happened. (this is assuming the cheating actually happened, which it sounds like it did.)
But it's his call to make.

Despite all this Sex at Dawn hullabaloo, it's not that hard to avoid cheating. It's just easier to cheat and then tell yourself "Oh I couldn't help it I was caught up in the moment and we're not even biologically wired to be faithful and I feel bad and I know I'll never do something like that again and blah blah bullshit".
78
Catface, unless you also think going to a strip club once is an instance of unfaithfulness, you're a sexist.
79
Minerva, so you think watching someone take off their clothes is equivalent to jerking them off?

(If not then maybe you need to qualify your analogies better. Maybe compare it to getting a naked lapdance.)
80
At this point I am hoping that the conversation -- well, the interrogation part of the conversation, anyway -- ends with, "Dude, you just told me that kind of stuff turns you on, so I made something up on the spot. While we were fucking. Both fucking times! Jesus!"

Now, they can certainly continue to explore beyond that. Maybe his wife misunderstood how far he is comfortable taking the fantasy. Parsing what he wrote in the letter, "I've been encouraging her to tell me if she ever gets attention from another man and we've talked about when things have turned her on in the past." it looks like he likes to hear about how other men have hit on her, not how they fucked her, and how being hit on turned her on, not how she was so thoroughly turned on that she violated her wedding vows by having sex with the guy. (Manual sex is still sex.) Maybe a little clarification about the boundaries on her narration is all that it will take to salvage the situation.
81
@Minerva

First off, calm yourself with the sexism bullshit. I was responding about this specific situation, I don't have to qualify my remarks with every possible fucking thing I believe about infidelity and every possible situation that could occur. Chill out.

Now, as to your example, if a guy goes to a strip club and gets groped by a stripper, then fingers her, he's cheating, assuming his spouse/S.O. thinks he's cheating.

But if a guy just goes and watches a stripper get naked, then it's not a comparable situation, is it? Also, it's entirely beside the point, since my point was that the wronged party gets to decide how hurt they are. If the guy's wife doesn't like him going to strip clubs and thinks it's cheating, she gets to decide whether or not to put up with the behavior.

She gets the final call on whether the strip club equals cheating. Just like the letter writer gets the final call on whether or not his wife rewarding a stranger with a handjob for groping her is an infidelity too far. The genders have nothing to do with it. Sexism has nothing to do with it.
82
It's just a hand job. Bill and Hilary taught us that this is not sex, right?

Well, now, how would your wife feel if you told her you fingered a beautiful woman at the gym and that she came on your hand. Would your wife had chosen "the latter" to save the marriage?

Although I think hand jobs are fine between friends, it could lead to intercourse very soon thereafter. It s like smoking pot, and before you know it, you are snorting coke. So, the hand job is a "stepping stone" to intercourse, and that WILL ruin the marriage.

Please wait...

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