It would be great if this became a book on improving communication skills, because that is largely what appears to be at the root of the issue.

Interesting how this has turned. Hopefully Hoinsky's time with those orgs will be very educational for him and his readers.

Megan, I think it's less broken down into tricks and shortcuts than it is a step-by-step or how-to book. And I don't think this is written for average people for whom dating actually works already. It seems to me that it is written for those people who have a serious problem relating to women at all, let alone talking to them. The fact that the author is so willing to get advice and input and apologize, I think, is ultimately a good thing that will help the customers for this type of book (let's hope there aren't that many who would turn to something like this) actually learn to be better at communicating with women.

And your arguments about why this book shouldn't exist are also true of all of the "How to get your man to do what you want" articles and books that portray men as walking bags of brain-nullifying hormones that just need the proper training. Why would a single woman ask another single woman how to understand and control guys? Just ask a guy! (gay besties don't count). The misandry seems a little less important because of the lack of misunderstanding leading to potential assaults, but when you have both sides assuming men are incapable of intelligent conversation/understanding and are basically just horny brutes with hair-thin margins of self-control, well, that makes it all that much harder for guys to assert any differently.
It all just makes me thank my lucky stars for being a big-ass faggy gay boy.

@3 To be fair, I never said I approve of it going the other way. I think Cosmo magazine, for example, is fucking insulting to both men and women.

I'd never follow Cosmo's advice to "get my man to do what I want" just as I'd never assume a man is as stupid and "trainable" as Cosmo suggests.

How to pick up women, how to get your man to do what you want—it's ALL bullshit.

While I find all these neuro-linguistic pea cocking mother fuckers completely reprehensible in every way, HOWEVER let us not forget that the "How to Find a Rich Man" books that reduce men to their wallets are, and have been, completely mainstream and 100% socially approved for decades.

While these books may not cryptically endorse assault like Hoinsky's do, they do promote infantilizing dependency and the worst form of shallow objectification there is - turning humans into money.

These books are so much more popular that the female authors of this tripe are relentlessly on talk shows promoting their particular version of sexist dogshit and NOBODY questions it, in fact they become hit TV shows (ahem, The Bachelor).

Is there not just a universe where the Ken Hoinsky's can find and only fuck the Ginie Polo Sayles's ?

@5 I've never seen a book like that, can you point me to some? For curiosity's sake, I swear.

(p.s. if we're judging society by the popularity of reality tv, we're all rather fucked.)

@2: "Megan, I think it's less broken down into tricks and shortcuts than it is a step-by-step or how-to book."

It's still a cargo cult movement, PUA without the harmful/ridiculous elements isn't PUA.

Ugh. That Awl interview is horrifying. I'm so sad that a female journalist (?) gave him that kind of validation.

Wow!

This turn of events is big-time evidence of one of my pet hypotheses: that reddit-style internet mysogyny is pretty strongly rooted in socially sheltered young men who more than anything else are just overwhelmingly sexually frustrated.

I believe there are a lot of men in their 20s and 30s with jobs who aren't hideous and aren't raving, bigoted assholes but don't have sex lives and can't figure out why. They get exasperated going about their daily lives, enjoying their hobbies, socializing with their male friends and co-workers all the while every time they find themselves attracted to a woman its a burning reminder that they although they have money, careers, and all kinds of privilege, they don't get to have sex.

The pickup artists' processes, analyses, and tips are the last resort and first resort for these men. Whether its fear of rejection, extreme social sheltering, psychological scars from religion, depression, or really really bad luck over a period of time, these men either can't, or incorrectly believe that they can't, understand whatever it is that "normal" people do to get laid. Shit like this book is what they come up with as alternative, because they've convinced themselves that they need an alternative.

Hopefully Hoinsky learns that there is no method, process, algorithm, or cheat-codes to human mating. Women are people and life is random and unfair. And its not this pickup artist shit actually works. The harder you work at getting laid, the less you will. Trying too hard is the opposite of attractive.

I don't think it's unreasonable for a man having trouble dealing with women to turn to other men for advice.

First of all, such a man might just not be comfortable interacting with women. Especially when it comes to admitting one's shortcomings and discussing very sensitive, emotional subjects.

But also from a practical perspective: while Jane Doe may be able to give advice on how to date Jane Doe, or her friends, a man who has successfully dated many women would presumably have a more broad perspective on women in general.

Every person is different, after all. And the more experience someone has with large numbers of people, the more applicable that experience will be in general.

Also, while a woman might know what she sees from her perspective on a date, that doesn't necessarily help her see what the man was doing to create that perspective. She may see a casual-looking hairstyle and outfit that the man painstakingly put together. She may see a spontaneous mid-date suggestion that the man had prepared a week in advance. She may see a confident, assertive man who was internally insecure and nervous. And so on.

If you want tips on how to cook, I'm sure a food critic would have some very useful things to say, but I expect a chef would have even better advice.

That said, if you know of any women-authored dating advice for men books you'd recommend, I'd be curious to check them out.

I put this in the category of those people who sell DVDs telling you the "secrets" of how to get rich in real estate.

Anyone who really knows how to get rich in real estate would be fabulously wealthy, and not make a video about it.

I mean, how many books did Steve Jobs write called How I made a million dollars inventing the first generally available personal computer? Did Larry Ellison write Databases: My Guide to Riches?

Nope.

Same with picking up girls. Anyone who has a technique wouldn't be sharing it all up and down the street. He'd be the biggest fool going.

@6 OMG. When was the last time you went a big retail bookstore's relationship section? Look up Ginie Polo Sayles's among hundreds of others.

@11: good point at the end there. I was going to say this. Ms. Seling, why don't you write a guide to teach men how to get laid, from a woman's point of view? Sounds like it could be a lucrative project.

Women swear the PUA stuff doesn't work, and a few men swear it does. I think it's the equivalent to the guy who asks every woman he meets if she wants to have sex. It's almost always no ("See? That doesn't work."), but once every however-many attempts it's yes ("See? It does work!"). Confirmation bias.

Every single one of the people I know, who tried PUA stuff, became way more successful with girls than before. It's not magic, and it's not going to turn everyone into magical seducers, but it increases success rates hugely.
And yes, asking girls on what works on them - doesn't work. A lot of successful dates are described by girls like "I'm not sure what it was, I just felt a connection". And there are very specific steps you can do to create that feeling.

I can't believe you doubled and then quadrupled down on your idiocy.

The douche apologized. Realized his douchiness was actually considered to be harmful, and may or may not have been bullshitting when he said he'd fix it.

That said, there are MANY self help books for trying to understand men and/or women better at every stage of life. How to make your marriage last books are just as popular as PUA books, if not more so. Why? They say the same thing. How to understand your wife/husband (women/men) and how to communicate with better attenuation to that gender.

No, really. And you're doubling down saying "yeah, so what. Still tarded." Then quadrupled by saying "I hate PUA for women too, but that's not the issue here!" Just say you hate the guy for having written assault-level PUA and own it. PUA books are written for men and women both. They're not sexist. And feminist culture is only hindered by the terrible advice inside the books, not by their mere existence.

@14
"I was going to say this. Ms. Seling, why don't you write a guide to teach men how to get laid, from a woman's point of view? Sounds like it could be a lucrative project."

I think that part of the problem is reducing women to vaginal access. Why support a book or an attitude that advocates that?

The douche did NOT apologize. He used the same old "people are misconstruing things" shit that every other douche uses. He's not going to learn anything, except that controversy gets attention which may eventually sell books (whether they're rewritten or not).

@17 Oh good, someone else who thinks that this is just about desperate guys looking to get laid. It's not like men could ever want more than that from a relationship, right?

@20
"Oh good, someone else who thinks that this is just about desperate guys looking to get laid."

Well, considering that the part I quoted was:
"I was going to say this. Ms. Seling, why don't you write a guide to teach men how to get laid, from a woman's point of view?"

... teach men how to get laid
... men how to get laid
... how to get laid
... laid

"It's not like men could ever want more than that from a relationship, right?"

Of course.
Once you've scored some vaginal access, that is.
... teach men how to get laid

Is Megan just a guest writer from Jezebel? It seems she has confused being a strong woman with being a harpy.

@21 Oh sorry: I didn't realize you hadn't originated the misunderstanding, but were merely propagating it. My bad.

For the record, PUA in general and, I'm presuming, the kickstarted book specifically, aren't just about vaginas. FYI.

The bottom line is that all people, of any gender, are extremely primitive and mostly oblivious to the desires, wants, and needs of others.

Ms. Seling herself wrote a piece a year ago about learning all about how the girls and the boys do it from punk rock boy bands.

We're all guilty.

Let's not be judgmental, let's just learn from it and move on.

@17: who's doing that? I was suggesting the exact opposite, that if Ms. Seling wrote a book that advised men how to get laid, it might be helpful for men who lack those skills, while avoiding the ideas that many people find misogynistic. Or maybe the very idea of people wanting to have sex offends you. Or maybe it's only offensive when it's men.

@9. But the end result of that logic is that the guys in question end up celibate for years and years. If there is no "how" to dating then there is no way to change ones dating chances, if you do what you always do you'll get what you always got.

Of course, people who can't date for decades might be a feature for you and not a bug.

Re: OP

Really? Most guys that would need this book either already have talked about it with their female friends(and gotten bs advice) or they have no female friends to talk to because of whatever circumstance. If you don't care about people in this situation, I get it. Sexually frustrated people are not easy to sympathize with. Just own the fact that you do not give a shit about men who can't get dating and consider their forced celibacy an acceptable loss if it means no more PUA bullshit.

Methinks @26 your problem with enforced celibacy has nothing to do with bad advice, and more to do with being jsut generally unlikable. And being named after a terrible Jarmusch movie.

Heterosexuality is so fucked. Y'all screwed.

Wasn't the whole point of the outrage not that Hoinsky wrote a PUA guide but that he wrote a PUA guide that might as well be The Intimate Manual On How To Catch a Charge? That the "techniques" involved seemed to place whatever unlucky woman they were used on in harm's way?

FWIW, I think all PUA guides' effectiveness (or lack thereof) is based upon instilling a false confidence in its readers. People tend to perform better, socially and sexually, when they feel they are prepared. The problem, of course, is whether the preparation is horribly misguided or actually insightful- the real-world consequences can be major and lasting.

@28: When I see shit like this, I don't just feel the Pride, I feel the Relief.

Ahahahahaha at "save your money and ask a woman." Are you fucking kidding me? Maybe (actually, almost definitely) asking a lesbian or bi girl would be helpful, but asking a straight girl is just completely pointless. Straight girls have no fucking idea how to hit on women. They know what they DON'T like, but they can't really tell you what they do, for the most part.

Honestly, I think the main benefit of books like this would be to tell men that hitting on women, even if done completely correctly, still doesn't succeed all the time. And it could teach guys how to read signals better, which is generally the problem that straight guys seem to have when they hit on women. I don't have my hopes up, but the genre has potential even if the vast majority of the material is dreck.

Listen, I agree that most of the “seduction community” consists of douchebags in furry hats, but many painfully introverted guys truly need help figuring out how to talk to girls. These are nerdy Reddit types, who need everything spelled out for them. Things like projecting confidence, actively listening to women, and making physical advances when appropriate do not come naturally to these dudes. While it may seem “creepy” that human sexual interactions are broken down into a guidebook, if that book is any good it will serve to make these nerdy people act LESS creepy and more “normal” in bars. The truth is that some men are better at approaching, talking to, and attracting women than others, and there’s really nothing wrong with lonely dudes trying to improve themselves to become more desirable.

@25
"I was suggesting the exact opposite, that if Ms. Seling wrote a book that advised men how to get laid, it might be helpful for men who lack those skills, while avoiding the ideas that many people find misogynistic."

So it wouldn't be "misogynistic" if a woman wrote it?
Despite being exactly the same premise as if a man wrote it?

"Or maybe the very idea of people wanting to have sex offends you."

Maybe. Or more likely you just don't understand what "misogynistic" means.

"Or maybe it's only offensive when it's men."

Maybe. Or more likely you just don't understand what "misogynistic" means.

A man approaches a woman at a crowded bar. He touches her lightly on the arm to get to the bar next to her to order a drink. He asks he what she is having, and they begin a conversation. After they talk for a bit, he touches her on the back, pointing toward a booth. "c'mon, let's go sit down." They sit next to each other. After a bit he does the old yawn, stretch, put your arm around her routine, exaggerating it into a joke. But his arm stays around her shoulders as they keep talking. A bit later he interrupts something she is saying, says "Hey, hold on a second," and leans in to kiss her. She giggles and turns her face away, smacking his knee playfully.

Later they leave the bar. They are having a more intimate conversation now. At a corner they stop and face each other. Without saying a word, he pulls her to him, and they kiss passionately. He takes her hand and leads her to his house nearby.

Inside they make out on the couch for awhile before he takes her hand and leads her to the bedroom. She says, "Just so you know, we aren't having sex tonight." He says, "I know, we shouldn't." They make out some more on his bed, and he removes her shirt and bra, and his own shirt. He starts to take off her pants and underwear; she retains her panties but lets her pants slide off. After more foreplay, he moves her hand down to his pants; she feels his erection and her breathing quickens. He unzips her pants and puts his penis in her hand. They make out passionately and he can feel through her panties that she is wet.

He moves away for a moment to take off his jeans and boxers and get a condom. Condom on, he moves back to her and slowly pulls her panties down, looking into her eyes. Then he enters her.

Please tell me where, in this scenario that is completely consistent with the letter and the spirit of the quotes I've seen from this pickup guide, which acts were sexual assault.

It's been fascinating watching the reactions to this story: so many knee jerk reactions and people making false assumptions... There is a perception that PUA stuff is all mind-games creepy men use to trick women (or attempt to) into sex. To be sure, there is some awful shit out there - and one need not have any credentials to become a self-proclaimed expert and start running seminars. There is also a lot of material out there that contains good advice, and is really self-help oriented: aimed at helping men reduce their anxiety in expressing romantic interest, developing confidence and self-worth, and not putting women on a pedestal but recognizing women are human beings who also want sex and relationships. It's funny to me to see the accusations that PUA = treating women as objects, cardboard cutouts, because that's the exact opposite of a lot of the material I've come across. I think people tend to share the most scandalous content, and then people assume that's representative of the whole. PUA reading can be a bridge to helping a guy improve his life, which will then improve his dating life. A lot of it is like a form of marketed therapy.

I find the PUA community really interesting from a sociological perspective, and have read a fair amount. Curious to see how it started, I later read "The Game" and found much of it to be repellent. The content you'll find nowadays is different than ten years ago - there is a focus on being "natural" rather than using "routines" - which is to say students are encouraged to develop themselves, expand their tiny comfort zone (ie. leave the apartment/computer) and experience more of life. Some men need the motivation of women to start doing these things and then find they are much happier for doing them - and let's face it, you're more likely to be successful in dating if you are happy to begin with rather than looking for someone to make you happy.

@18 "I fully admit that...there are indeed parts in the book that are harmful..."

That is NOT a bullshit "I'm sorry you were offended" non-apology. Dude may still be a dick, but this is far better than par for the course, at least rhetorically.

@31:

Honestly, I think the main benefit of books like this would be to tell men that hitting on women, even if done completely correctly, still doesn't succeed all the time. And it could teach guys how to read signals better, which is generally the problem that straight guys seem to have when they hit on women.

Yeah.

I've known some real hetero man-sluts, and they all (except the 22yo Adonis with the huge cock) had "methods" and "theories" they followed. It could be pretty revolting (and fascinating) to watch them do their thing at times, but they dated and fucked a lot of women. And the three guys at the top of this list (one of whom was a pretty physically unappealing sociopath, but had the ability to really pay attention - or at least simulate it well) were still friends with almost all of their former "conquests." They pretty much all subscribed to the "other fish in the sea" philosophy, and, continuing the fish metaphor, to the idea that you don't catch fish without putting your line in the water, repeatedly.
Which is not to say that hamfisted application of these "techniques" by socially awkward misogynists is going to end well.

@31, 37: Also, I think a positive from this message is that there's no reason to get angry and become a stalker or worse if you get turned down; you just move on to the next prospect. Which would be good for some socially-awkward guys to learn.

I think the worst part of his book is using the wear down method - just keep asking her until she says yes. I was sexually assaulted when I was 15 via this method. I was scared, alone, had no where else to go and this guy just kept asking me over and over and over again and I finally gave in so that he would go away. The guy was 26 and knew very well that I was 15. He totally used almost all the cheese shit that this book advocates and its funny, because now as an adult I sometimes look at this shit and think "who the hell would fall for that?" and then I look back and realize that I did and vulnerable uncomfortable women who have been culturally programmed to never say no will give in.

@ 20, If you have to trick a woman into being with you, she's probably not your kind of chick.

Nearly every scenario is about getting a drinking girl into your bed by being pushy. Maybe that's fine if you and the target aren't looking for anything serious.
But are there PUA books about KEEPING a relationship? If there are, they're probably all about asserting your superior manliness over your partner by using physical force and strategic put-downs.

I hope there aren't any adolescent boys who get their world-view destroyed by these assholes weeping about "sperm-jacking", "hypergamy", and "alph males". All this preaching that women are silly slutty creatures who need you to tell them what they want is extremely harmful. Shit, don't these guys have mothers?

I would direct all these Pepe LePews to Dan Savage.

@34: The part where the woman doesn't coquettishly flirt with the dude but is legitimately uninterested but he keeps up the exact same line of "play." You didn't talk about it, because it doesn't support your POV, but it's absolutely there.

@34, I got a sickening knot in my stomach from reading that.

Here's 42 explaining it:

"@34 - Probably the part where the woman shows no agency at all in the situation, and doesn't seem to exist as a person, only a fantasy creature that doesn't exist in real life? Also, super creepy story dude. If you can't see where this author went wrong, and you can't see why the PUA stuff is so creepily repellant, I can see why you might have a problem with trying to date women."

@16: "PUA books are written for men and women both."

Are you seriously that stupid? No woman wants men to be instructed, in actuality, on how and why to treat them as less than human.

@44 I think the premise of the comment @16 is that The Rules is a PUA book written for women. The little difference being that the pick-up manipulation leads to marriage, not NSA sex.

Let me know when the Rules fans start rapin'.

I never, EVER condone assault, there are lots of pick-up advice columns and blogs in the world for both men and women. I applaud Ken Hoinsky for deciding to revise his book and make it more positive.

However. I think you need an editor. "I don't understand why a lonely, straight man would turn to another straight man for advice on how to interact with women. Save your money and ask a woman, genius!" is extremely ignorant and offensive to a large number of men. If it were easy enough to simply walk up to any woman and ask her for advice on picking up on women, we wouldn't be having this exchange of words. Just because you may have forgotten what it feels like to be shy, nervous, or even terrified of approaching someone you are attracted to doesn't mean it ceased to exist in the rest of the world.