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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
Because that makes SO much more sense.
Maybe Rafael can grease a few of the appropriate palms and get out in a year or two....
Because Amanda was convicted in a civil law legal system does not mean due process wasn't followed or there wasn't habeas corpus. Both Amanda and Raffaele had their case overturned mainly on a technicality of certain evidence, (mainly the knife found in Raffaele apartment and the bra strap found in Meredith's room)
There was a clean up, there is wipe footprints from Meredith's room to the bathroom, there was Amanda and Meredith's blood mixed in 3-5 places in the house. This case is hardly wrong conviction or slight mix up. These two along with Rudy Guede killed Meredith Kercher.
How would Americans feel if the entire country of Italy bagged us for convicting one of their citizens whom we felt certain was guilty?
If Amanda Knox is at all a decent human, she will go and serve her sentence with something like dignity.
@19: So if you were railroaded on something you didn't do and told you had to spend 20 years in jail, would you go?
@18: i know motive is not evidence, but praytell what the motive of a middle-class college couple to casually participate in a rape/murder three-way? what was the prior relationship of guede to knox/sollecito?
@19: you've got to be fucking joking. america doesn't give a fuck what other countries think about us. we're #1, didn't you hear? regardless, a "decent human" isn't required to sacrifice her young life to an insane conviction. italy's supreme court needs to suck it up and overturn. but something tells me there's no backing down.
You do realize that other countries have refused to extradite to us because we impose the death penalty? Our system doesn't allow for double jeopardy. If Italy can refuse to extradite to us even when we assured them their fugitive wouldn't be facing the death penalty (they have done this, by the way), then we're within our rights to tell them to go fuck themselves.
Oh yes the "guilters"?!?! I just like how people will scream about some of crass PR of the Koch Brothers, without realizing that Amanda Knox's family, (mainly finance by her father) hired a Seattle PR Firm aka David Marriott to spin the case.
On the "motive", I think it is weakest part of the case, but my speculative guess is that it was combo that the trio needed money to buy hash, Amanda had some resentment to Meredith, given that Amanda's boss Patrick fired her from her job, the day before,and wanted to hire Meredith, and it was most likely a botch robbery/scared tactic that went wrong, Meredith rent money for the Month was taken, and I believe they tried to access her bank account via her phone. is my opinion.
There was a huge clean up. Meredith's body was moved, Amanda's lamp was in Meredith's room, most likely to be used to clean off the blood from the wall, (cutting cartoid arteries means it spurts) there are shoe prints, that match Raffaele's shoe size, there is blood all over the bathroom from Raffaele and Amanda's trying to clean the blood off them.
Amanda and Raffaele were lying their asses off from the very beginning, even before Meredith's body was found.
This case was a hardly a miscarriage of justice. Amanda and Raffaele don't have alibis, they took part in a clean up, they panicked before the Postal/Phone police arrived, They did a piss poor job in cleaning up. The Carabinieri and the Rome Crime Lab did a good job in preserving and collecting evidence.
Sure, everything looks like innocence when there is a multi million dollar PR campaign working on Amanda's behalf... I just find it funny how many people have been taken in by it.
My point is that whether Amanda is innocent or guilty, she had due process and her rights weren't violated in Italian Jurisprudence, which adheres to EU's convention for criminal defendants.. Italy has its problems, but it isn't a shithole, and it is so awful, I suggest boycotting Italian leather products, Italian History, Double Ledger book keeping, Modern Architecture and Espresso, given that half the things that many Seattlites and Gringos love, pretty much are Italian origin.
http://lesswrong.com/lw/1j7/the_amanda_k…
Educate yourself, and think rationally from the start. Reject your prior assumption, and reanalyze the evidence and tell me what conclusion you come to and how you came to that conclusion?
For example: "Only DNA from one person, Rudy Guede, was found on Meredith's body" What does this lead you to believe?
I believe Seattle will dominate the headlines because the Seahawks will have won the Super Bowl.
@24 you're just being a moron.
Oh, wow! What incredible argument skills, you can't refute my points about Italian Jurisprudence or EU guidelines for jurisprudence, so you revert to insults. Smart person!!!!! rofl..
@23,
"There was a huge clean up."
A statement predicated on the following being true:
" Meredith's body was moved," -- no reason to think A&S did this
" Amanda's lamp was in Meredith's room, most likely to be used to clean off the blood from the wall, " -- First, roommates often borrow stuff. Second, bloody hand prints were found on the wall, but chemical evidence of cleaning chemicals was not. And how did K&S maneuver around the room, magically leaving Guede's DNA in several places?
"there are shoe prints, that match Raffaele's shoe size," -- Shoe prints of some material, but not blood. The evidence is clear on that one. Residual dog shit would show up in luminol. The "shoe size" claim is also kind of dodgy.
"there is blood all over the bathroom from Raffaele and Amanda's trying to clean the blood off them." -- You fell for a PR stunt. The bathroom had no more blood than I might leave by mistake during my period. The police sprayed the whole thing in a fluid that oxidizes to pink/red and put that picture online.
"Amanda and Raffaele were lying their asses off from the very beginning, even before Meredith's body was found." -- Are you talking about the timing of the phone calls to the police? Again, double check your sources. Or do you mean the statements made during interrogation with no lawyer? According to the Innocence Project, 25% of people exonerated *by DNA* made incriminating statements under interrogation.
I'm sorry I wasted my time explaining this to you because it won't change your mind. I hope you can understand how the circus emanating from one prosecutor and repeated by people like you has allowed the actual rapist and murderer to exploit the situation to get a rather light sentence.
I have been following this case since 2007. I read Judge Mignini opinion of this case after the short track trial of Rudy Guede in 2008, which is still one of the best roadmaps of what happened in the death of Meredith Kercher. Because Rudy Guede's dna was only found on the body of Meredith Kercher doesn't mean he is solely guilty of the crime. Much like Amanda and Meredith's blood were mixed in 3-5 locations in the house doesn't mean it was all innocently done.
There has been a huge PR effort in the states to belittle the direct and cirucmstantial evidence against Amanda Knox. As much there has been lots of hysteria and hyperbole in the British and Italian press against Amanda Knox. However this is hardly a miscarriage of justice. Both Raffaele and Amanda had opportunity, method and the weakest part but still there motive in the killing of Meredith Kercher.
Read Judge Mignini's opinion after Rudy Guede's trial and explain why it is wrong. If you want to explain your superior knowledge and belittle mine, then explain why Judge Mignini's opinion is so wrong...
your ridiculous speculation as to motive suggests me you're unable to apply logic to this situation. please go read @25's link and WTFU.
Ha!
It is a miscarriage of justice. Italy is a joke and their criminal justice system deserves no respect. The only thing this deserves is for the US to put economic pressure on Italy to reform their system to prevent future issues like this. If it requires the US to force Italy into bankruptcy, so be it (and it wouldn't be a long push to do that).
And if anyone has doubts about the incompetence of the Italian justice system, I recommend The Monster of Florence. It's the story of an interesting serial killer case that tangentially shows how batshit that same prosecutor (Magnini) is.
Under civil law systems the judge and prosecutor are the same. Under common law, as in Britain and the US (except, oddly, Louisiana) the judge oversees a trial in which the state prosecutes separately and the defendant provides or is provided a defense.
There isn't any real reason to believe in the general course of criminal prosecution that either way is better or worse. But when something out of the general way happens, like a crazy person with satanic cult obsessions like Mignini bwing the prosecutor, the common law offers better remedy and oversight.
In this instance Mignini had been in Florence where he so bungled a serial killer investigation that he was moved to save face for Italian jurisprudence. You can see how well that worked. In his new posting Amanda Knox was the victim of his lunatic incompetence.
And on the other side, I can imagine being Meredith too. That poor woman. Raped and murdered on a study abroad trip. Ghastly. And then the investigators bungle the whole case. And the guy who did it gets a light sentence (he's fucking eligible for parole in June. Of this year. How fucked up is that??) partly because of the prosecution downgrading his involvement. Jesus, this case pisses me off.
And indicted the author/journalist writing about the Monster for libel. That author still can't travel to EU nations because another neat trick of Italy is that truth is not a defense in libel cases. An Italian journalist working with him was arrested and held without communication with family or attorney under anti terrorism statutes for accurately reporting Mignini's incompetence, but was later released.
@41 - there is some truth to your comment. We don't get half this exercised over similar injustices here, and make no mistake - they do happen. Our police use the same tactics - keep asking questions, keep "suggesting" things until the sleep-deprived suspect starts remembering. That still doesn't change anything here, though - this case stinks, and there's no vice in calling it out.
Maybe a better way to put it- if I was done an injustice by the legal system here I have better means of addressing it in a consistent legal framework, though unavoidably a flawed one. And the police tend to use nuisance laws as a pretext for otherwise unjustified investigation of citizens. While in Italy the police tend not to bother people for small stuff, if you do get caught up in some unjust legal action, God help you.
This is payback for that.
Not sure I'd have phrased it that way. We get the policing we accept. In Bonney Lake enough people got fed up with one bad sargent that he was forced to resign. We get the laws we accept, when we don't call legislators on the carpet for failing to represent justice.
But yeah, we have about a thousand years of development of a legal system prizing even handed protection of individual rights and peer review by jury of legal application. Not perfect, but not bad either.
But, Mignini aside, Americans getting all up on their high horse about police/judicial injustice...I have to chuckle.
"Pervasive racial targeting provides another peculiarly U.S. stamp to the drug war. We are incarcerating African-American men at a rate approximately four times the rate of incarceration of black men in South Africa under apartheid.5 Worse still, we have managed to replicate-at least on a statistical level-the shame of chattel slavery in this country: The number of black men in prison (792,000) has already equaled the number of men enslaved in 1820. With the current momentum of the drug war fueling an ever expanding prison-industrial complex, if current trends continue, only 15 years remain before the United States incarcerates as many African-American men as were forced into chattel bondage at slavery's peak, in 1860. "
https://www.aclu.org/drug-law-reform/dru…
"The war on drugs has been a war on communities of color. The racial disparities are staggering: despite the fact that whites engage in drug offenses at a higher rate than African-Americans, African-Americans are incarcerated for drug offenses at a rate that is 10 times greater than that of whites.
In 2001, I represented dozens of African-Americans who were charged and convicted of bogus, very low-level cocaine offenses in a small Texas town called Tulia. The only evidence against them was the uncorroborated testimony of one corrupt law enforcement officer, Tom Coleman. That didn't stop my clients from receiving sentences of 20, 40, 60 and even 90 years. While the ending was ultimately a happy one, my clients spent four years in prison for crimes they did not commit while we worked to clear their names against a stubborn backdrop of entrenched racial bias and fear-driven crime and drug war policies that fueled the drug sweep and ensuing convictions."
https://www.aclu.org/blog/criminal-law-r…
"When sifting through the layers of policy concerning the “War on Drugs”, one can find racial disparities and obstacles facing those minorities on trial and during punishment. On the surface, de jure suggests that everyone has an equal opportunity in defending themselves from criminal accusations concerning drugs. However, careful scrutiny of judicial jargon along with assessment of limitations of marginalized groups suggests otherwise (de facto). The idea that minorities have to somehow “prove” that racial discrimination was being used during a search and seizure (United States v. Armstrong, 1996) and that the Equal Protection Law has been separated from the Fourth Amendment through successive court decisions leaves the accused at a disadvantage. This separation is open to police discretion and availability of such discretion has been created by court case. The idea that defendants had to show favorability of whites in “similarly situated” court cases was reinforced by the 2002 United States v. Bass decision in which the Sixth Circuit court’s decision to favor a death-eligible, black defendant was reversed; the man had provided data that suggested that the United States charges blacks with death-eligible offenses more than twice as often as it charges whites.The Supreme Court’s conclusion was that raw data does not say anything in particular of “similarly situated” defendants.[13] Moreover, there is the idea that those with tangential associations of the accused are not open to having sentence reductions as they don’t have other dealers to “rat out”; this generally leaves women at the disadvantage as they are usually found as holders of drugs without information (Coker,834).. Also, there is a noted racial disparity of those punished and rehabilitated. Professor Cathy Schnieder of International Service at American University notes that in 1989, African Americans, representing 12-15 percent of all drug use in the United States, made up 41 percent of all arrests. That is a noted increase from 38 percent in 1988. Whites were 47 percent of those in state-funded treatment centers and made up less than 10 percent of those committed to prison.[14]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_th…
"Yet far from putting any meaningful constraints on law enforcement in this war, the U.S. Supreme Court has given the police license to stop and search just about anyone, in any public place, without a shred of evidence of criminal activity, and it has also closed the courthouse doors to claims of racial bias at every stage of the judicial process from stops and searches to plea bargaining and sentencing. As I describe in some detail in my book, the U.S. Supreme Court has virtually immunized the system of mass incarceration from judicial scrutiny for racial bias, much in the same way that it rallied to defend slavery and Jim Crow in earlier eras."
"The dramatically different manner in which we, as a nation, responded to the crisis presented by drunk driving and the crisis caused by the emergence of crack cocaine speaks volumes about who we value, and who we view as disposable. During the 1980s, at the same time that crack cocaine was making headlines, a grassroots movement was emerging to address the widespread and sometimes fatal problem of drunk driving. Unlike the drug war, which was born of deliberate political strategy to exploit our nation's racial divisions (part of the Southern Strategy to flip the South from blue to red), the anti-drunk driving movement was a bottom-up movement led most notably by mothers whose families were shattered by deaths caused by drunk driving. By the end of that decade, drunk drivers were responsible for about 22,000 deaths annually, while overall alcohol-related deaths were close to 100,000 per year. . By contrast, during the same time period, there were no prevalence statistics at all on crack - even though crack babies, crack dealers, and so-called crack whores were dominating the news. In fact, the total number of deaths related to ALL illegal drugs combined was tiny compared to the number of deaths caused by drunk drivers. The total of all drug related deaths due to AIDS, drug overdose, or the violence associated with the drug trade, was estimated at 21,000 annually - less than the number of deaths caused directly by drunk drivers and a small fraction of the number of alcohol-related deaths each year.
So how did we respond to these competing crises that were unfolding simultaneously? Well, in response to the advocacy of groups like Mothers Against Drunk Driving, most states adopted tougher laws to punish drunk driving. Numerous states now have some type of mandatory sentencing for this offense - typically two days in jail for a first offense and two to ten days for a second offense. Possession of a tiny amount of crack cocaine, on the other hand, was given a mandatory minimum sentence of five years in prison.
The vastly different sentences afforded drunk drivers and drug offenders tells us who is viewed as disposable - someone to be purged from the body politic - and who is not. Drunk drivers are predominately white and male. White men comprised 78 percent of the arrests for this offense in 1990 when the new mandatory minimum sentences were adopted. They are generally charged with misdemeanors and typically receive sentences involving fines, license suspension, and community service. Although drunk driving contains a far greater risk of violent death than the use or sale of illegal drugs, the societal response to drunk drivers has generally emphasized keeping the person functional and in society, while attempting to respond to the dangerous behavior through treatment and counseling. People charged with drug offenses, though, are typically poor people of color. They are routinely charged with felonies and sent to prison."
http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/10629-…
"In 2011 in Connick v. Thompson, the court held that a black man railroaded by the district attorney's office in New Orleans and convicted of a murder he did not commit could not recover a judgment in a civil rights action he brought and won after serving 14 years on death row. Just a month ago in Florence v. Board of Chosen Freeholders, the court held that jail officials were legally entitled to strip-search an African-American businessman, Albert Florence, twice after he was wrongly arrested and held for a week in two New Jersey jails. In each case, the conservative majority never once addressed the racial context or racial implications of their decisions."
http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/25/opinion/if…
Meanwhile, what has happened to Amanda Knox is also a travesty. Can't I be upset about Rubin Carter AND Amanda Knox?
"In Whren v. United States, the Supreme Court held that an officer's subjective motivations for a stop were irrelevant to Fourth Amendment analysis, and that the legitimacy of the stop should solely be determined by an objective analysis of the totality of the circumstances. Under Whren, so long as an officer can offer an 'objective' reason for a detention or arrest, it does not matter whether the officer's 'real' reason for the stop was racist. In Illinois v. Wardlow, the Supreme Court ruled that the flight of a middle-aged Black man from a caravan of Chicago police officers provided reasonable suspicion for his detention and search. In the majority's view, African Americans have no legitimate reason to flee the police. Thus, the Court, in essence, established a per se rule that flight equals reasonable suspicion. As Professor Ronner has remarked, this perspective takes 'an apartheid approach to the Fourth Amendment and actively condones police harassment of minorities" - http://racism.org/index.php?option=com_c…
Before you start calling out other justice systems for being corrupt and pointing to America's justice system as good, learn a bit.
@64 yep you can as long as you admit that Knox is being treated the same way many black males are treated in America. All the commenters who are bashing Italy and praising America need to check their white privilege and learn about America's justice system.
Lets see, the laws are corrupt/racist, the police enforce them in racist ways, the supreme court up holds racist policies and will only acknowledge race when it's in your face racism (i.e. they've ruled that cops basically have to call a black person the n-word in order for racism to enter into evidence). Oh and the right to a lawyer is basically a myth (http://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/ho…). So what part of our justice is good?
Hey maybe you don't like to read, here's a video to watch: http://billmoyers.com/content/bryan-stev…
But keep calling me names, I've backed up all my points, you're just saying "Nope!"
Cite the part of the rulings that support your claims, directly from the court documents or own up to the fact that you are just trying to pretend that your opinion is fact.
Look you're not arguing against my points, but calling me names and demanding more and more proof, whereas not proving any proof to your points...So I'm gonna give up talking to you. Agree with me or not, Amanda Knox is being treated by italy the way many black men in America are treated daily. You can read and learn about this, or you can be ignorant, either way it's your choice.
The PR campaign isn't aimed to counteract the British or the Italian Tabloids, it is aimed at trying to persuade Americans. This is why they booked Morning TV shows or get Tim Egan to write powder puff pieces. Italian or British tabloids are not prosecuting the case and have zero influence on the outcome of the case.
Much I wouldn't be surprise that this comment board and many others discussing the case have some Gogerty Mariott hacks pushing the same talking points about there is no DNA of Amanda's near Meredith, lone killer, Italian Justice, etc. etc.
There is also Judge Massei's reports after the Knox and Sollecito's trial.
If the Rome Crime Lab did such a horrible job with testing DNA evidence against Amanda and Raffaele, why isn't their testing against Rudy is not questioned?!?!?
How the crime scene was sealed, first by the Postal Police, and then by the Carabinieri, and how evidence was collected and tested showed there wasn't a problem. Contamination of evidence would appear if an investigator or a crime lab personnel's DNA or fingerprints were on the evidence, which wasn't the case..
If you are going to scream about the "miscarriage of justice", and no evidence meme, then you better argue that Rudy Guede is innocent as well, given the same people collected the evidence at the scene that incriminated him as well..
You asked me what I thought was the motive in the killing of Meredith Kercher. I gave you my opinion that is based on evidence..
-Amanda was fired from her job at Club Le Chic on October 30th.
-Meredith's Rent money was missing, which was due on Nov. 1st
-I believe that someone tried to use Meredith's phone to try to access her bank account. (Meredith had two cell phones)
-Patrick Lumumba has stated that he fired Amanda on Oct. 30th, and was interested in hiring or having Meredith work at the club...
Raffaele, Rudy and Amanda were most likely short of cash to buy hash, Amanda wanted to probably scare or get back at Meredith for what happened at Club Le Chic, and what caused the stabbing of Meredith was that she screamed, which the first reaction to the person holding the knife to her throat was to cut to silence the scream..
I just like how all those who scream travesty of justice and there is no evidence against Amanda, can't argue themselves out of paper bag if they try, and have to revert to insults and the same slogans, "Miscarriage of Justice" "Mignini was mean to Doug Preston" "there is no evidence, well okay no DNA evidence, well there is DNA evidence but none of Amanda's on Meredith Kercher's body" which seems to be the trump card to get Amanda Free..
Oh I am sorry, did I upset your boycott campaign? You repeat your "miscarriage of justice" talking point a couple times in your rant. I guess the 10 month trial, the 60 witnesses, Amanda taking the stand in her defense, the DNA evidence, the luminol spray of the bleached prints in the hallway..the wash that was going when the Postal police arrived, the 5 spots of Amanda and Meredith's blood in the house, including one in Filomena's room, where they had the staged robbery, are all you know "miscarriage of justice"..
If you want to agree to disagree with the trial and verdict, fine or explain how the prosecution's case was flawed, and what is exculpable for Amanda, rock your socks off. However, just resorting to insults because I have a difference of opinion, shows more who is pathetic and weak willed.
It's not a difference of opinion but one of paradigm.
The Knox trial would never have happened in the US for a few reasons. The 'evidence' of her having murdered Ms Kercher is laughable and the investigation which produced it done ala Keystone Cops. (Just one error- on the night of the murder Guede was seen by a policeman near the apartment washing his arms in a fountain. He was saying 'I killed her. I killed her'. The policeman advised him to go home and sleep it off, and this behavior never was spoken of in court.)
Yes, the persecution of two journalists who dared report his past lunacy in Florence is a reason to question Mignini and the prosecution of Knox. And you conveniently omit the acquital following Mignini's kangaroo court which enabled Ms Knox to be freed and return home in your narrative of intense judicial support for her initial conviction.
I get that you, like the mass of Britons, think Knox was a satanic cultist tweaking on drugs and wild sex who murdered Ms Kercher in some black mass/revenge for lost job/ wild party (the story changes in every 'trial' so I'm unclear what nonsense is the motive now). But by any standard of rational and fair judicial behavior the various Knox trials are a travesty of justice
"Nobody here's good at their job."
There's news.
The World Justice Project (http://www.worldjusticeproject.org/) is the leader in tracking and ranking nations on justice. Below are the areas that are modelled, ranked and studied. Below are the rankings of the US and Italy for Criminal Justice and Fundamental Rights. There are some very ignorant people making comments today on the justice system of Italy. Before they write, maybe they should open their minds and educate themselves or maybe do the rest of us literate and educated individuals a favour, and just stay home. Italy or any other nation that outranks or ties the US would welcome the reprieve from the ignorant.
US
Factor 8: Criminal Justice World Ranking 26/97, North Am/EU Ranking 14/16: Total score 65
Factor 4 Fundamental Rights World Ranking 25/97, North Am/EU Ranking 14/16: Total score 73
Italy
Factor 8: Criminal Justice World Ranking 24/97, North Am/EU Ranking 13/16 : Total score 67
Factor 4 Fundamental Rights World Ranking 27/97 North Am/EU Ranking 15/16: Total score 72
Factors
1. Limited Government Powers
• In a society governed by the rule of law, the government and its officials and agents are subject to and held accountable under the law. Modern societies have developed systems of checks and...
2. Absence of Corruption
• The absence of corruption - conventionally defined as the use of public power for private gain - is one of the hallmarks of a society governed by the rule of law, as corruption is a manifestation...
3. Order and Security
• Human security is one of the defining aspects of any rule of law society. Protecting human security, mainly assuring the security of persons and property, is a fundamental function of the state....
4. Fundamental Rights
• Under the rule of law, fundamental rights must be effectively guaranteed. A system of positive law that fails to respect core human rights established under international law is at best “rule by...
5. Open Government
• Open government is essential to the rule of law. It involves engagement, access, participation, and collaboration between the government and its citizens, and plays a crucial role in the promotion...
6. Regulatory Enforcement
• Public enforcement of government regulations is pervasive in modern societies as a method to induce conduct. A critical feature of the rule of law is that such rules are upheld and properly...
7. Civil Justice
• In a rule of law society, ordinary people should be able to resolve their grievances and obtain remedies in conformity with fundamental rights through formal institutions of justice in a peaceful...
8. Criminal Justice
• An effective criminal justice system is a key aspect of the rule of law, as it constitutes the natural mechanism to redress grievances and bring action against individuals for offenses against...
9. Informal Justice
• For many countries it is important to acknowledge the role played by traditional, or ‘informal’, systems of law — including traditional, tribal, and religious courts, as well as community-based.
Interesting how Amanda's blood was all over the place (five tiny drops is actually virtually nothing, just FYI, dumbass), but not in Meredith's room *and* Amanda didn't have any cuts on her.
Also:
Just make things easier for yourself and admit that you're *really* freaked out by sexually active, college-age girls. Thanks.
Yes, the lack of evidence that's *necessary* to prove Amanda's guilt is totally a "trump card" to get her free.
When I say the investigators were incompetent, I'm being kind. More likely, they destroyed evidence.
US
Factor 8: Criminal Justice World Ranking 26/97, North Am/EU Ranking 14/16: Total score 65
Factor 4 Fundamental Rights World Ranking 25/97, North Am/EU Ranking 14/16: Total score 73
Italy
Factor 8: Criminal Justice World Ranking 24/97, North Am/EU Ranking 13/16 : Total score 67
Factor 4 Fundamental Rights World Ranking 27/97 North Am/EU Ranking 15/16: Total score 72
Factors
1. Limited Government Powers
• In a society governed by the rule of law, the government and its officials and agents are subject to and held accountable under the law. Modern societies have developed systems of checks and...
2. Absence of Corruption
• The absence of corruption - conventionally defined as the use of public power for private gain - is one of the hallmarks of a society governed by the rule of law, as corruption is a manifestation...
3. Order and Security
• Human security is one of the defining aspects of any rule of law society. Protecting human security, mainly assuring the security of persons and property, is a fundamental function of the state....
4. Fundamental Rights
• Under the rule of law, fundamental rights must be effectively guaranteed. A system of positive law that fails to respect core human rights established under international law is at best “rule by...
5. Open Government
• Open government is essential to the rule of law. It involves engagement, access, participation, and collaboration between the government and its citizens, and plays a crucial role in the promotion...
6. Regulatory Enforcement
• Public enforcement of government regulations is pervasive in modern societies as a method to induce conduct. A critical feature of the rule of law is that such rules are upheld and properly...
7. Civil Justice
• In a rule of law society, ordinary people should be able to resolve their grievances and obtain remedies in conformity with fundamental rights through formal institutions of justice in a peaceful...
8. Criminal Justice
• An effective criminal justice system is a key aspect of the rule of law, as it constitutes the natural mechanism to redress grievances and bring action against individuals for offenses against...
9. Informal Justice
• For many countries it is important to acknowledge the role played by traditional, or ‘informal’, systems of law — including traditional, tribal, and religious courts, as well as community-based.
With overwheming evidence.
Scott Peterson was convicted in the US with far less evidence. No DNA, no blood, no footprints, no murder weapon he collapsed at seeing, no evidence of staged break-in or cleanup links him to the butchered corpse of his 9-month-pregnant wife. But he acted insensitive, calling his mistress on the wake for his dead wife. But he was convicted.
Of course his parents still think it wasn't him. But why don't Seattleites campain for justice on his behalf ? Perhaps because his parents didn't sell their kidneys to make a multi-million dollar PR effort on his behalf... "The best justice money can buy" indeed.
Relationship of Guede with Knox and Sollecito ? He was a drug seller and they were druggies. Murderous, rapist druggies, the three of them. Guede was an acquaintance of both flats of the murder house.
Then how come you know of it ? How useful, a mysterious unnamed policeman who only confided to the US PR team, who did not even confide to the lawyers of Knox and Sollecito, because no doubt they would have risen the issue in court, right ? European court is not like the US, where judges can bar the hearing of witnesses on chosen matters !
So here is the plain hygiene issue : Pure cute Amanda never flushed the toilet. She always let her piss and feces in the bowl for her flat-mates to find.
And that is admitted as accurate by all camps. The surviving flatmates testified to it. Knox's lawyers admitted it. So did Knox.
Maybe she was too high to notice. Maybe she had been scolded at home and deeply resenting of having to flush, and she was happily exploring her kinks abroad, by practicing them on unwilling participants, against all decent kinkster's etiquette. Maybe she was just raised dirty. Maybe she wanted to get her dirty on, in more ways than just plain sexual.
So come on, now, conspiracy theorists, get your gears going : OOOH, that's the real reason why the bad Italian police and justice zeroed on her ! They couldn't bear the sight of piss-and-feces-happy sweet all-American girl Amanda ! They had to pin a murder on her to punish her for not being toilet-trained to their thirld-world country standards !
No takers ?
Amanda had a scratch on her throat that was visible and Meredith's friends stated in court during the criminal trial, which they noticed when they were at the police station after the murder.
Bloody Clothing? Well the washing machine was going when the Postal Police arrived around 12:30am on Nov. 2nd, you know when Amanda just went home to take a shower...
About your very weird quip that I am "freaked out" by Amanda's sexual activity or college age students sexual activity. Whatever happens between consensual adults is no consequence to me, and immaterial to this murder/killing. I am curious of what happened, and how this murder case became an international circus.. This is a case of motive, method and who had opportunity...
To everybody: You were neither at the crime scene nor the trial, nor the other trial...you don't know shit. Yes, the Italian justice system is fucked, and no Amanda Knox isn't really that attractive. She's the type that you would say, after a few drinks at a party, "Yeah sure, I'd do that if it's easy," but, really...come on. A lot of us are photogenic, even though the idiots among us think the camera steals the "soul". Everybody, please, SHUT THE FUCK UP. NOBODY CARES ABOUT YOUR OPINION< INCLUDING THOSE ON SLOG. You are not changing anybody's mind about anything...ever. Please stop commenting about your stupid armchair theories about anything...NOBODY CARES...really, nobody cares...this includes any of my previous statements. Really, please, everybody keep their idiotic-self-righteous/assured opinion to themselves and just get a The Stranger out of a newspaper street box. And for those of you unfortunate enough to not live in Seattle, read it online and keep it at that. I for one will no longer comment as an "unregistered user" or by any other status of registration. You are all way too full of yourselves. Read the news, think about it, talk to your friends. The people who don't know you fucking hate your opinions even if you agree with them. DOWN WITH SOCIAL MEDIA UNLESS YOU ACTUALLY ARE DOWN TO CHANGE SOMETHING!
If it's true that Amanda Knox is guilty, the existence of a PR firm is irrelevant. If there were a reasonable level of conclusive, trustworthy evidence of her guilt, there would be no need to commit this logical fallacy wherein people remark on how "suspicious" it is that they hired this PR firm. As another commenter said, this alone is not evidence of her guilt. She is accused of a very high-profile crime. The desire be seen as innocent of such a crime is something that both a guilty person AND an innocent person would have in common, for reasons that most of us non-dipshits have no trouble comprehending. Therefore their having hired this firm, in and of itself, is meaningless when it comes to ascertaining her guilt. I'd appreciate if people (like ferret) would take note of this before the next time they breathlessly post "BUT SHE HIRED A FIRM! CASE CLOSED!"
So if you want to determine her guilt, you have to look at something that innocent and guilty crime suspects usually do NOT have in common: the existence of compelling, hard evidence. One aspect of "compelling" evidence means that it has to be not only conclusive, but trustworthy. This means that evidence claimed by officials with a history of corruption and tampering, which then fails to find any support upon independent re-testing, is not compelling. Unfortunately, just about all the physical evidence cited by the prosecutors here fails that test. PR firms don't cause evidence to evaporate (though incompetent crime scene investigators might).
Aside from this tenuous physical evidence, you have circumstantial evidence. Now, even compelling circumstantial evidence is unreliable and should be treated as such (again, for reasons that are perfectly comprehensible and obvious to us non-dipshits). But the circumstantial evidence alluded to by people like ferret is particularly laughable, since (from what I've read in his posts) it amounts to the following:
- Somebody tried to clean up the crime scene (no information offered as to why we should suspect that this "cleanup" was attempted by these two, specifically. Instead, the perceived presence of an attempted cleanup itself is treated as evidence of their involvement, as if Knox and Raffaele are the only two people in Italy who would be capable of grabbing a washcloth and wiping it across a surface after killing someone).
- Some of Amanda's stuff was present in several rooms of the apartment she lives in (highly suspicious, indeed; as we all know, only murderers keep their stuff where they live, and only murderers' roommates ever borrow that stuff).
- While neither person's "bloody" footprints were found, they did nonetheless leave some forms of footprints in the apartment where Amanda lived. As we all know, not only are murderers the only people who keep their stuff where they live, they're also the only people who physically walk around in the places where they live (or where their girlfriends/fuckbuddies/friends live).
- Amanda may have had cause to be mildly upset with the victim. As we all know, only murderers manage to have squabbles with their roommates. Also, whenever anyone is murdered, not only is everyone they have ever angered a suspect, but these people are all DEFINITELY GUILTY. Every last one.
- The prosecutor in the case (with the sordid history of corruption and incompetence) really, really thinks she did it! Somehow his history of horrible prosecution practices is less relevant than her history of sluttiness when it comes to this trial.
- And, of course, upon being accused of this crime, she and her family have this eerily suspicious desire to clear her name. Innocent people have no problem having their names associated with infamous, violent crimes that could damage their long-term reputations. After all, what harm could come from such a thing?
Frankly, ferret, so far you've clung to so many pieces of non-evidence and refuted evidence that its actually become safer to just dismiss everything you mention outright. If hard evidence of her guilt is ever found, analyzed, re-tested, verified, and summarized by independent sources that have not shown corruption, incompetence, and untrustworthiness throughout, I will believe in her guilt. But as long as we're committing every logical fallacy in the book, to the point where we're finding it suspicious that she physically occupied the apartment she lived in, we don't get to claim all that much certainty in her guilt. And I'm sure as hell not going to turn to you to list that evidence, since you've shown the gullibility of a particularly wide-eyed 10 year old.
Even if Knox is guilty, the conclusion people like "ferrett" should be reaching is that this is yet another one of the harms of evidence-tampering and corruption in any country's legal system- it causes us to have to let killers go. The only other option is to relax our standards for what qualifies as reliable evidence in cases where we just "feel" really sure that the suspect is guilty, and it shouldn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why that's a bad fucking idea. So yes, even people who commit crimes should only go to jail when we can reliably prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they're guilty, even when that "reasonable doubt" is due to corruption and/or incompetence.
And j2patter: The US court system is awful to ethnic minorities: we give them way harsher sentences, prosecute them at higher rates, and are convinced of their guilt by hugely insufficient levels of evidence. This is a bad thing. It is also a bad thing when it happens to white Americans in Italy, Arabic Muslims in France, or anyone anywhere. It is entirely consistent to criticize both justice systems. Pointing out that this case would have been laughed out of the US justice system doesn't require us to believe that the US justice system is perfect; just that its failures tend to be slightly less cartoonish than this case.
Though personally I don't actually agree that our justice system is any less cartoonish: just look at that woman who was sentenced to 20 years for firing a warning shot at her violent stalker (in her own home) and injuring no one, while Zimmerman is acquitted of shooting an unarmed minor to death in public. "Stand your ground" aside, both claimed self-defense, and the fact that her claim went unrecognized (along with the severity of her sentence) is just ridiculous.
That said, though, this doesn't mean we should extradite Knox. I'm fine with out government being hypocritical in cases where it prevents invalid incarcerations rather than causing them.
Don't be blinded by the PR. Check the facts.
Evidence-tampering is PR : the defense was there when stuff was collected and tested. The defense chose not to show up for the testing of the knife.
Bad corrupted prosecutor is PR : he was innocented from malicious claims spread against him in court. Anyway, that man was never involved in the present trial, nor the breaking of the second one. Different prosecutor both times, as is standard practice.
As for footprints, go see the luminol traces themselves. Look at them. Then say again that stuff about it being plain natural occuring footprints.
And yep, it was bloody footprints. Experts were unanimous. One of those footprints included blood from both Knox and Meredith Kercher. This one was in the room where a break-in was staged.
You say you want real facts, and as soon as we've provided them you just dismiss them or seriously mis-represent them.
"I am asking myself how is it possible that Amanda could have slept in all that mess, and took a shower with all that blood in the bathroom and corridor? (Guede, Germany Diary, P21)"
FACT : Guede left straight away. See the bloody footprints of Guede.
This above statement is how was the flat when Guede left it.
FACT : When postal police arrived inexpectedly : Knox and Sollecito were inside. They were handling a wet mop. There was a strong smell of bleach. There was a washing machine running with clothes inside. There was no visible blood.
So you dismiss out of hand the dozens of forensically mundane explanations of what might cause luminol to glow -- which in this apartment was proven neither bleach nor blood.
But when the actual murderer claims to have "wondered" how Knox could pass unaware whatever degree of mess it suits him to claim he left, his spin is to be treated as gospel truth.
You are categorically incapable of reason and logic.
But really, you tipped your hand with your linguistic flourishes about the "twice condemned murderess who cut open with a kitchen knife the throat of the already raped 20-years-old English flatmate she hated, while her 1-week bestiality porn obessed boyfriend and her drug dealer rapist friend were restraining her".
You're no more than a virulent woman-hater straight out of the Reformation.
The PR firm also either got Tim Egan, (who's wife is or was an Editor at the Seattle Times) to write some op ed pieces at the NY Times, besides it feeds info or access to certain reporters, I assume one of them is Nathaniel Rich, (aka Frank Rich's son, of NYT fame)
About circumstantial evidence, I hate to break it to you, but circumstantial evidence = evidence. If Amanda and Raffaele had alibis, their whereabouts were validated with evidence that their whereabout from 8pm on Nov 1st to around shortly after midnight on Nov. 2nd 2007. They wouldn't be charge with the murder of Meredith Kercher. Amanda and Raffaele don't have alibis. From 8pm-to around 5:45-6am from Nov. 1st to Nov. 2nd there they can't show how they were not away from the crime scene. Timelines are important in any criminal case.
The whole argument that "well Amanda lived there, so there will be evidence (ie direct evidence) of her at the crime scene" misses the point. There was plenty of evidence that Filomena and Laura were at the crime scene as well. The difference is that Filomena and Laura had alibis, (Boyfriends!!!!) Ditto with the five guys downstairs, who were seeing their families on the Nov. 1st holiday. The other roommates didn't have opportunity, and their whereabouts were verified. If you don't think the Carabinieri didn't check on others, well guess again.
The crime scene was cleaned. Who had opportunity and also felt comfortable moving about the crime scene? The likely suspects gets narrow down. How about Rudy Guede? well his footprints go straight out the door, not back and forth from the bathroom to Meredtih's room. Much like the luminol footprint of Raffaele and the shoeprint in blood on the throw rug in the bathroom.
I mentioned Amanda's lamp because it was her only source of light in her bedroom. It was also mentioned in Mignini's cross examination of Amanda during the criminal trial. It is not a inconsequential part of the evidence, and I try to mentioned material that was presented at the trial, whether it was Raffaele's footprint from the luminol spray, to the five locations that Amanda DNA and Meredtih's blood were mixed in together, including Filomena's room.
Your main points rest on that there was corruption by the Prosecution and the Carabinieri in this case, (hence the evidence was compromise) To continue with my logical fallacies, (rofl) what specific case that was a corruption in this case? I am not talking about Italy or the Italian Judicial system in general, but where in Perugia or anywhere that evidence to convict Rudy, Raffaele and Amanda was compromised?
A note about "DNA contamination" while collecting evidence at a crime scene. Contamination isn't when a suspect's DNA out of nowhere appears on evidence. Contamination is when someone either not related to the case, like an Crime lab technician who is collecting evidence or criminal investigator has their DNA mixed in to the evidence. For example if a Crime Lab technician sneezed on the evidence while trying to scrape off material. The bra clasps that is at the center at the case against Raffaele, can be fine sitting in the room, as long it isn't disturbed. Gloves are used as a barrier for the evidence collector, not that a collector has to change gloves every time they pick up evidence, (much like they don't have to change booties every time they take a step in a secure crime scene)
The whole "independent testing" argument. As much as it would be nice that there is evidence that can be independently tested to make sure that it replicates PCR DNA testing, what is important is looking at protocol and the testing and results, on their own. If the testing shows the there is nothing wrong with procedure by the Rome Crime Lab, then it should be looked upon as the results should stand up as meeting scientific standards for testing.
As much as science is trying to determine certainty, there is always going to be debate and different interpretation on scientific results. Is there doubt on the DNA on knife found in Raffaele's apartment? sure there is doubt, but the doubt is small compare to the testing that showed that the DNA of Meredith Kercher cannot be ruled out..
There are no winners or losers in murder cases. They are tragic, and I only care about is what happened and how it happened. As much as motive, method and opportunity are essential for criminal cases, step by step timeline, and how each pieces of the evidence fits, (both circumstantial and direct evidence) are essential.. If Amanda, Rudy and Raffaele were innocent, the evidence would be drifting away from them, not focusing on them. Amanda and Raffaele wouldn't have both opportunity and direct evidence they did a clean up. (They were at the crime scene for hours cleaning up, How do I know this? they called Filomena from the house, they were there when the Postal Police arrived, the wash cycle of the washing machine was being completed, there was a clean up and moving of the body at the crime scene)
Ooh, personal attacks now. You're admitting yourself as cornered !
Amazing how you dare to pose as a trustworthy source on an Italian murder, when you've just showed in #97 how unable you are to gather information when it's not being directly spoon-fed to you, by not even managing to click on my Stranger link to check my bio !
Guess what : EPIC FAIL ! Je suis une féministe française. Translated just for you : feminist French woman here. You know, France ? Historical Catholic country ? Nowadays Atheist/Muslim/Catholic/Protestant/Jewish ? The place where people speak French that is neither Louisiana nor Quebec ? You can't drive from Seattle to there, 'cause there's deep water in-between ?
And I'm also an ex-ERASMUS student in Germany, which is what tortured and butchered Meredith Kercher was in Italy - and that's what motivated doing my homework on Meredith's murder, and my checking on actual evidence, and my comparing it to Seattle-based PR, who just are "Liars, liars, pants on fire".
And before you dare tax me of anti-Americanism, I'm also someone whom elected at 16 to go and live one year in the States as an exchange high-schooler. I know about the US, I've lived there.
Meanwhile, you d.p. are a jaywalker in Ballard, Seattle, who doesn't even know how to use Stranger-provided links to research your personal attacks.