nations with guns all over have many gun deaths. nations without many guns all over have far far far fewer gun deaths. the nations that really limit and control guns also do not have large swaths of their land so plagued by violence that kids can't play outside and you don't want to go there unless you have to live there. there is simply no analogue in Australia or japan to the high murder by gun zones of America's large cities. gun control works when it does result in reducing the prevalence of guns so accidents like this don't happen, so criminals find it harder to get guns -- no, they won't necessarily find one anyway, at least not if you look at japan, uk Australia etc. -- suicidal and enraged and drunk and irresponsible people find it harder to lay hands on a gun, etc. the facts and causal connections are so clear it's only through an organized drumbeat of verbal bullying by the gun loving crowd that this simple fact is made into something "debatable." gun lovers: tell me what part of paris has the murder rate of the south side? what part of Australia, an ethnically diverse nation full of eurowhites, Asians and people of color, has a murder rate like that of Anacostia? what part of paris is like Compton? None, none and none, and yet you keep arguing this point.

@9 -- okay I am persuaded. let's continue to work for small bore gun control stuff that the nra opposes anyway and when we pass it the dems get voted out like in Colorado; if keep suppressing what we really think and want for an actual solution, eventually you know the gun lovers will become rational and see the light. that's your plan? the current gun control efforts aren't working did you notice attempts to ban gun show loophole in wash state only lead to a counter initiative? at a fundamental level the advocates of gun control are being too bullied and silence themselves into giving up their real point, their best argument: full on gun control works. and it's true the mini incremental measures short of that actually have just a marginal impact. we have a solid fundamental debate here and one side is afraid to speak their minds and stand up and it's not the nra side. this is how they win. they get us to silence ourselves. I won't go to certain parts of LA for salsa dancing unless a local clues me in on is that a gang neighborhood, but there isn't a single part of London or paris or Tokyo I'd be afraid in. Now, gee, why is that? if you run away form your basic truth, well then, you sort of can't expect to win in politics.