Comments

1
It's such a basic concept. If you are telling a different disadvantaged group of people what they should do, you are absolutely not an ally or helpful to that group. Harvey Milk was encouraging people like him what to do. He wasn't talking specifically to bi people, trans people, black people, disabled people, or any other group he did not belong to what to do. If you want to be an ally, educate people to the issues that those people face. If you want to give them advice, find someone in that group and share their voice. There's an Internet now, it's not hard.

Shorter version: WHITE DUDES
2
It's always coming out, always coming out and the grass is always greener on the other side.
3
Can we coin the term "gay-splaining" now?

I"M JOKING! Just ribbing... just ribbing...
4
@1 That's bullshit. Speaking as a bi man, I don't think Dan, a gay man, telling me and other bi people to get our asses out of the closet is phobic. Just like it's not racist for someone who was active in the civil rights marches in the 60s to tell Latino farm workers that they need to stand up for themselves.

Lesbians and Gays have had their share of public abuse and have found a way around it, past it, and into the public sphere as a normal segment of society. If that's what we want as Bisexuals, then we could do a lot worse than hearing from people who have already done it.

Dan doesn't need to go find a bisexual sex advice columnist to share his/her voice. Dan has years (decades?) of experience being a public figure in a hated minority group. His opinions, his advice, his experiences, are all worthy of sharing and listening to.

Hell, disagree with him if you feel he's wrong. Share a counter point, an argument, or simply disagree quietly at home, but attacking him for giving an opinion/advice is counterproductive. Saying he isn't an ally because he doesn't sit down and shut up and only talk when he has a member of the community there to speak for him, is asinine.

Dan has said stupid things in the past. People still bring up his comments about all gay men having been bisexual at one point. That's not the issue here, though. He's grown. He's learned. He's educated himself and continues to educate others. That is the definition of an ally.
5
@ 1 - "Shorter version: WHITE DUDES"

Wait, now it's a racial thing? If Dan was a gay African American, everything he wrote would be okay?
6
@5: It's a race and sex thing. Raku's solution to all the world's problems is for every white male everywhere to shut up. Everything is the fault of white dudes, and white dudes can never, ever, make anything right. Anything a white dude does - even trying to fix a problem - will just make the problem worse. That's just what white dudes do.
7
@1 I don't understand, it it the message that you're pissed off about, or the messenger?
8
Dan is right on. Sorry but I came out as a teenager in the '80s, in the early years of AIDS, which was a hell of a lot harder than coming out in your 20s or 30s in the 2010s. And the folks who came out before me had it even harder.

It doesn't matter if you are coming out as gay, bi, trans, or what ever. The same principles apply.

So long as you remain hidden you are contributing to your own invisibility. It's that simple and really hard to refute.

Do what you want, but gay or bi or what ever, if you are in hiding you are part of the problem.
9
@1 So you agree Bi people need to come out?

Oh, and by your logic, bi-racial people shouldn't have had a say in the civil rights movement because they "telling a different disadvantaged group of people what they should do" and they are not 100 percent Black. Your fury seems more about Dan being right than "outsiders" telling oppressed people what to do.
10
@1: Should Harvey not have told lesbians to come out?
11
Every time Dan Savage says "I'm not calling for anti-bi pogroms", he is saying, "I'm calling for anti-bi pogroms." Anyone who can't see that is biphobic.
12
5/6: White dudes as a group love telling other people what to do, as if they're smarter and have more experience being part of that underprivileged group. I'd love to be wrong, but get proven right time and time again. It's part of being the most privileged group in history -- you teach your white male children to condescend and push other groups of people around, never to actually listen to them. In western society, this is as unique to white men as putting uppity groups of people in camps.

4: You may identify with Dan enough that his issues are your issues. But there are people who aren't like him and have different lives and experiences, and blaming them because they're not doing what you say is absolutely hateful.

I also enjoyed the sentence (paraphrased) "I'm not blaming bi people, but bi people are not blameless." I'm not saying Dan as a person is hateful or oppressive, but he's not unhateful or unoppressive.
13
9/10: Is this seriously so hard to grasp? LISTEN TO PEOPLE. DONT SPEAK FOR THEM. That's it!!!!

If someone says you're not being fair to them, as bi people, feminists, trans people, fat people, black people, genderqueer people, etc etc etc, have said to Dan, LISTEN TO THEM AND BELIEVE THEM. It is extremely easy. Try it!
14
Speaking as a bi woman, it's tough, because so many of our families want to either shove us back in the closet or dismiss it as a "phase." Claiming the cloak of hetero privilege is so much easier, it takes no guts whatsoever. And yeah, I'm only partially out and fully aware that I suck, and suck at this.
15
@13: Do you recognize the difference between speaking for someone and speaking to someone?
16
Raku is right. Any time someone of a different gender/creed/color/sexuality tells you that you're doing something wrong in your work as an ally, you are. No matter how many people of the same persuasion tell you you're doing something right.

Of course the problem arises when a person of one disadvantages group - let's say a poor black woman - tells you one thing and another person of a different diadvantaged group - let's say a physically disabled Latino - tells you something different. Those situations can only be settled in a steel-cage deathmatch involving farm implements.
17
Disadvantaged. Sorry.
18
@13: As one of evidently many bi people who think Dan is absolutely right, I would appreciate the hell out of it if you'd stop speaking for any of us. If someone says you're not being fair to them, they may be right or they may just be a seemingly willfully obstinate asshat.
19
15- Do you recognize the difference between speaking to someone, and speaking over them, telling them what to do, or telling them their experience is wrong? One is getting information from someone. The others are telling someone to shut up.
20
18- I'm not speaking for bi people, I'm speaking as one of many types of people who Dan is hurting by misdirecting the LGBTQ movement into a movement for only a certain type of privileged person. Google a little bit for people who are angry at Dan Savage -- you'll find thousands of people who care enough to write about it. Just because he's helping YOU doesn't mean he's not hurting other people at the same time. If you think all these thousands of people put this much energy into being "willfully obstinate asshats", see the shorter version of my comment #1.
22
Raku is accustomed to solving complex social issues by waving her hands and making proclamations. It's one of the ways you can tell she's in her 20s with the ink still wet on her diploma.

In Raku's world these imaginary bisexuals should just be accepted for who they are even though we have no idea they even exist. Actual bisexuals who have identified themselves as such don't matter. Only the silent ones should be listened to, since their silence proves their authenticity (because they're being silenced by white males, of course).

And no one should have an opinion on anything without first consulting Raku's secret book of scripture to find out what it should be. All the pages are blank.
23
@4: "Dan has years (decades?) of experience being a public figure in a hated minority group."

It's merely years, for Dan is but 29 years old, you see.
25
I think @20 might be being a little unfair to @18.

@18 suggests the logical possibility that someone complaining of unfairness might be being 'willfully obstinate' person and @20 seems to infer from that that @18 is painting all such people as being obstinate.

That seems like an unfair characterization of what @18 said
26
I need to tape my avatar in front of my eyeballs. Unbelievable that "listen to people who are pleading with you" is so hard for white dudes to accept, that the mental gymnastics turn thousands of people into being wrong about their life experiences, and turns people who are pleading with you into "silent".

Good luck holding onto that sociopathic power over the world, it's not going to last forever.
28
@26 I suspect that you're getting as much push-back as you are because you are denying a group of people the possibility of having legitimate thoughts and criticisms of things outside their immediate experience.
29
Yes! Doubling down on the biphobia. It's obvious you do not understand the concept of bi invisibility. It is not just a lack of bi people in our communities or public eye, although that is a problem, but the fact that bi people are viewed by both the lesbian & gay community and the straight community as either lesbian or gay if they're in a same-gender relationship or straight if they are in a differently gendered relationship. The biphobia experienced by bisexuals also dually comes from the straight community, and as you have demonstrated for us, the lesbian and gay community. And the amazing lack of introspection in not realizing how you're biphobia as a wealthy, gay, white man with a public platform has contributed to bi invisibility over the years is shameful.
30
@26, you are not "thousands of people".
31
@26 AND. The "silent" people I'm referring to are the aforementioned "70% of bisexuals who are not out to their friends and family members". They're the ones you're demanding we "listen to". But they're not saying anything. We don't even know they're there. Gay people started to get their rights when they started demanding them. You are accusing Dan, and me, of ignoring the voices of people WHO ARE NOT MAKING ANY SOUND. That's not really the way it works.
32
Best thread in a long time!
33
@29: I came out as bi because of reading Dan for years. So did an ex of mine. Pretty sure we're not the only two. Does he get any credit, or just blamed for this terrific "biphobia" that manifests itself as asking more bi people to make themselves known?
35
I do listen to peopleโ€”and bisexuals, as they are people. (They're sort of like corporations that way.) But here's the thing: not all bisexual people agree with each other. When I listen to one, and he/she/ze tells me he thinks I'm right, and I listen to another, and he/she/ze tells me I'm wrong... what do I do then?

I'm gonna go introspect on that for a while... but first I gotta find my introspectacles.
36
@29 Oh good grief please shut the fuck up. Please, for the love as all that's holy, stfu.

"but the fact that bi people are viewed by both the lesbian & gay community and the straight community as either lesbian or gay if they're in a same-gender relationship or straight if they are in a differently gendered relationship"

Hmmmmm....not my experience. You know why? Because I tell people I'm bi. Funny how that works. And I'd be willing to bet that there are plenty of people of who absolutely accept you as bi as well but of course that doesn't give you something to be angry and butt hurt about so you ignore them and focus on the few people who don't understand being bisexual so that you can get on a soapbox and say "See, this is how EVERYONE views us!" and then go on with the sobbing and the moaning and the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

"white man with a public platform has contributed to bi invisibility"

No. Making yourself invisible is what makes you invisible. You know how you become visible? Stop making yourself invisible.
37
@1: We have to make sure that we listen, but that does not forbid us giving them suggestions, or calling for certain actions. Or do allies never raise a call to arms for a cause, and instead wait for someone who is far more vulnerable to make the call?

Can I not transcend my white male-ness and be a human, just as all other minorities are humans? Must I only listen, carefully trying never to offend people, even when they say stupid shit, like Andrew Sullivan did today?
38
@35, you're supposed to listen to the ones who disagree with you, and ignore the ones who agree. And realize that the ones you haven't heard from will disagree with you when they get around to making their opinion known. That includes everybody; even if you have, say, one million fans, that means that by definition you have 6,999,000,000 people who know that you are wrong. They are all bisexual, and they are all opponents of you, unless they have proven otherwise (because they are white male supremacists). Shut up and listen to them...listen...they're in the grass there...the trees are rustling...listen...lisssten...lisssssssss -- No, wait, that's just a guy taking a leak. Gross. Never mind.
39
@37 "Can I not transcend my white male-ness and be a human"

In Raku's opinion? Not a chance.

@34 "but at least she fires up Fnarf, which is an awesome sight to behold"

Agreed. I'd like to give a gold star to Fnarf for continuing to engage Raku. Not because he's going to change her mind (we know that that's not ever going to happen) but because his responses are really fun to read. Here's to you Fnarf! *raises glass*
40
@26 There are a lot of people disagreeing with you in this thread, and it's good money that not all of them are white dudes.

You are a racist and a sexist. Own it.
41
Jessus, I saw the first comment was from Raku and I wanted to warn people not to feed the troll but we're already at comment 40.
42
@12: um, actually the person who really loves telling other people what to do is you.
43
@35 Dan, whatever your views now, reformed or not, you can't deny your record of questionable quotes re: bi people in the past. There's no use in dragging them up because we all know them. You can trivialize and condescend critiques all you want. In the end, blaming an oppressed group for being oppressed, as opposed to blaming the multiple forms of biphobia on an internalized, interpersonal, inter-community, and institutional level and working to dismantle them in solidarity with bi people, is not productive.
44
This is awesome. "introspectacles" I love it.

This supposed bi invisibility is easily solved...don't be invisible. I don't know why everyone has to get their panties in a twist. If you're bi and someone assumes otherwise, correct them. No biggie. The world has many more fucked up problems that we could be solving. Or you know, maybe we could fight amongst ourselves.
45
@43: I don't think Dan has ever denied that record โ€” on the contrary, he's mentioned his former questionable views on bisexuality, especially male bisexuality, more than once. And the very existence of that record is evidence that he has listened and that his views have changed. It's pretty tiresome to see people still holding views he no longer holds over his head. He learned; he changed. That's all anyone can do.

I don't read this as him blaming anyone. He's pointing out that bi people who don't want to be invisible need to make themselves seen. And if his pointing that out gets a few more bi people to leave the closet โ€” as, again, he got me to do โ€” sorry, that's pretty goddamn productive.
46
Geez bi-folks, get over yourselves. It's hard to be you? It's hard to be alive! I'm old enough to have experienced the enmass coming out of the early 70's. Trust me, it was awkward and difficult for everyone. Plenty of judgement and dismissal for and from all involved. Don't bellyache about being invisible if you won't put yourself out there.

My daughter is bi. During her early years she identified as a lesbian. Then things got fluid. Now she's with a guy and wants kids with the father as her partner. Will she get with women again? Maybe. But mostly who the fuck cares? Whatever.

Quit whimpering and get out and take your licks. Your grandchildren will thank you.
47
M? Frog - So, it's Once Wrong, Wrong In Perpetuity? And, since "the bi community" refuses to work in solidarity with Mr Savage (if you get to make Ls, Gs and Ss monolithic @29, it's fair returns), he can't ever have anything productive to say or do on this issue (because OWWIP). That's rather a neat way to silence someone. I may plagiarize it at some point.

To paraphrase Senator Bentsen, Dan Savage is no more Hugo Schwyzer than Dan Quayle was Jack Kennedy.
48
Dom is right. Andrew is wrong.
49
I have spoken.
50
@45 Instead of acknowledging his role in perpetuating biphobia to a wide audience in the past he mocks a call for introspection and being self-critical. @47 I'm glad his views have evolved but part of that evolution is recognizing the problematic nature of his past views and, as is critical in ally work, taking a step back on occasion rather than purposefully trying to inflame the conversation.

Also, as no one seems to be able to grasp, bi invisibility and erasure is not solely about coming out of the closet. @36 It's not about having to tell every person you see that you're bi, it's about recognizing a culture of what Julia Serano refers to as monosexism, a system that legitimates and validates heterosexual or same sex relationships over the possibility, validity, or existence of bisexuality. There are multiple levels at which you can understand oppression, including the institutional level Julia Serano brings to the discussion or the internal and interpersonal level Dan brings up. Naming one, as in the case of this blog post, is at best an incomplete picture of the cause of biphobia and at worst blaming bi people for their own oppression.
51
@50 I'm curious about what you think about the notion of oppression. Is it ever incumbent of an oppressed person to be open to criticisms of their reaction to their own oppression? Does being oppressed absolve that person of any external obligation?

I'm not trying to be negative because I think it's possible that there is a coherent affirmative answer to the above questions. I just think the basic assumptions of people should be laid out
52
@50: There are multiple levels at which you can understand Dan's mockery. He could be further perpetuating biphobia. Or, as someone who has a record of demonstrating introspection and self-criticism, and who, again, *has* acknowledged his past negative treatment of bisexuality, he could just think you're a pompous twit who seems more hung up on trashing him than acknowledging his point of view, and who thus doesn't warrant a serious response.

However pervasive the culture of monosexism may be (and let's not overstate the case here; the culture in the U.S., at least, is a hell of a lot more OK with bisexuality today than it was even a decade ago, and looks to continue to become increasingly so, and that is mostly thanks to the work gay activists have done), at the end of the day, the fastest way to change that culture, on an interpersonal level and an institutional level, is for bi people to make themselves known as such.

But yeah, it is too bad a couple of blog posts didn't sum up and address the problem of biphobia in its entirety. That is a really smart and legitimate complaint, that if you can't say every single thing that somebody might think needs to be said about something, you shouldn't say anything! Strong argument there.
53
@51 I think one shouldn't be shielded from constructive critique just because they are oppressed. I simply think this critique is incorrect because I believe that bi-invisibility and biphobia drive people into the closet rather than bi people not coming out creating bi-invisibility and biphobia. One causal mechanism recognizes systemic factors and a cultural role while the other blames individuals for reproducing their own oppression.
54
@52 "That is mostly thanks to the work gay activists have done." I wasn't aware. I'll just shut up and let the gays liberate me. Not recognizing bi activism and bi peoples' role in creating a better public climate is a form of bi erasure. And it's not that Dan didn't say anything, it's that he focused on a problematic causal mechanism, see above, that places the production of biphobia and bi-invisibility on bi people themselves without interrogating institutional or cultural forces that fuel bi-invisibility.
55
I haven't really figured out how to keep coming out all of the time as bi. When I mention my husband in conversation, such as, "My husband and I went to the beach this weekend", should I say, "But please don't assume I'm straight because I am still attracted to women?" It's awkward to slip that into every conversation.
56
@53 I see. I think I pretty much understand.

I've recently become really fascinated by these issues and it seems to me that way too many people conflate distinctions of the sort you make in your last sentence.

I think the systemic issues are not necessarily replicated in individuals (kinda like how probability doesn't force a string of tails to correct itself on the next flip) and to hold individuals on either side accountable for systemic issues in any particular instance is grossly inapt.

On the other hand, where else to attempt to effect systemtic change than attempting to get a mass of individuals to change their individual behaviors?
57
@54: I'm reminded of what an old school leather Top friend said to me some years ago, with regard to the Leather Pride movement. "When it stops being about what gets your dick hard and starts being about political philosophy, count me out."
58
@53/54: "I simply think this critique is incorrect because I believe that bi-invisibility and biphobia drive people into the closet rather than bi people not coming out creating bi-invisibility and biphobia."

Please, please unpack that. There's absolutely no "simply" about it. "Bi invisibility drives people into the closet" resolves to "Bi people being in the closet drives people into the closet." (Which, no, it's certainly almost a tautology, but there's no causeโ€“effect relationship there there.) And if bi people not coming out โ€” that is to say, not making themselves visible โ€” doesn't create or at least perpetuate bi invisibility, I'm certainly curious as to what does! Or rather, I'm curious as to how we might eliminate bi invisibility without bi people becoming visible.

I did not say you should shut up and let the gays liberate you. I said there is a lot more acceptance of bisexuality than there was a decade ago, and that it's directly traceable to the work gay activists have done. I would love to be able to ascribe it to the work bi activists have done, but unfortunately they just haven't been as visible. Now, I believe I do see what you're saying, that bi activists' lack of visibility is (at least in part) due to the culture of monosexism, and I would agree with that. I think it's just human nature. It's simpler for the bulk of people to move from understanding "Dick loves Jane" to "Dick loves John" than it is to understand "Dick loves Jane and/or John," at least right away. It's too bad people aren't naturally more flexible. But it doesn't change the fact that all the progress in gay rights has made things better for bisexuals like you and me. And in fact that would be a weird thing to complain about. If we want greater acceptance of bisexuality, let's not dismiss the work other people have done to help make it happen, even if they aren't bi and even if that wasn't their primary goal. Let's be happy about it. The mountain is plenty high. It's a good thing if we can all help each other climb up.

Anyway, again, at the end of the day, what has consistently made the most difference in gay rights and recognition is gay people standing up and making themselves known as such. And that process carries over to bisexual rights and recognition. Which is great, because it's way easier and less boring than interrogating institutional forces and, protip, most people don't want to do that shit anyway.
59
Frozenfrog --

Bi-invisibility causes bi-invisibility? Then the solution is to not be invisible! Biphobia causes bi people to be in the closet? Then the solution is to man (and woman) the heck up like the gays did and make the biphobes realize that there are a lot of bi people out there whom they like and respect, and maybe therefore their negative view is founded on ignorance! Do you think that the change in the views of the American public towards gays and lesbians and nontraditional marriage was all caused by bigoted old people dying and being replaced by young people who have more flexible outlooks? No! Part of it is caused by people (like my 89 year old mother!) meeting gays and lesbians and changing their minds. So bi people -- get out there and change some minds. Yes, it isn't easy, and no some asshats will never change. But does that excuse you from being part of your own struggle?
60
Raku, you fascinate me. Not in terms of what you say, which has been hawked in various incarnations since before you born. Rather, it's the way you so totally and utterly wallow in self-righteousness like a cat rolling in catnip. It's kind of fun to watch, although I really do miss your old avatar of the angry young blonde in the goggles and the vegan infrastructure slogan. Perfection.

Salad is murder.
61
@53 Or basically, after thinking about it a bit more, isn't every individual equally subject to the greater power structures? Sure, some benefit from them and others don't, but benefiting from them doesn't mean that your in a position to change them (I benefit from gravity in a way that is utterly unearned, but I'm not in a position to change it any more than a person who was pushed off a cliff).

The only thing we can do is attempt to change the behavior of individuals and that holds independent of whether any individual benefits from systemic biases
62
@56: The system is hard to change. The problems with blaming it all on systemic issues are that (1) doing so robs people of their agency, and (2) history is rife with examples of individual behaviors changing the system.
63
@62, yeah, I guess I just get a bit pessimistic about human nature generally and often feel that it's hard to rob people of things they might not have had to begin with (like their own agency). But I agree, like solipsism, we just gotta get over it and act as if things matter.

What we should try to avoid is conflating larger, more abstract descriptions of societal inertias with individual hang-ups. They aren't necessarily the same thing. Like the distinction between climate and weather. with a dumb cliche: we don't want to bank on a hurricane though a butterfly flap.
64
@55, EXACTLY. I just posted about this on the original.

To be clear, I don't think either Dan or anyone who agrees with him on this issue is necessarily biphobic. I do feel, however, that this is something that monosexuals will just never get--even the sympathetic allies. When a gay man mentions or goes out with his same-sex partner, he essentially comes out without needing to say, "I'm gay." When that same gay man undergoes a breakup and gets a new partner, he never has to remind people, "So I'm with this new guy who's blonde, but it's cool--I'm still attracted to brunettes."

I rarely find an opportunity to "come out" while monogamously partnered with opposite-sex partners. I've forced it a few times in the name of "bisexual visibility," but it's so uncomfortable that it's hardly worth it. It's easy to say, "Coming out is hard, and I had to do it, so get over it" when you no longer have to do it over and over again.
65
Should this post even exist?

Dan, you're a parent. You should know what happens when you reward tantrums with attention.
66
@64: Everyone who has had to come out has had to face down situations that seemed "so uncomfortable that it's hardly worth it." There's no coming out without prioritizing your identity (and integrity) over your own or someone else's discomfort.

And having to come out over and over again? The number of times I've had to tell people that I'm gay exploded after we became parents. Once during a school tour the principle looked at Terry and asked, "Are you the Brother the uncle or just a friend?" We had to come out to her in a classroom full of 1st graders and two teachers. ("I'm the Gay partner father," Terry said.) And countless times I've been askedโ€”when I'm out with DJโ€”where my wife is. ("At home with his penis," I said once.)

So I've tasted this "people making the wrong assumption about my sexual orientation" stuff, and having to come out "again and again."

Hetero is the default assumptionโ€”and a person doesn't need to have a kid to incorrectly assumed to be straight.

For what it's worth.
67
From raku @12: "White dudes as a group love telling other people what to do, as if they're smarter and have more experience being part of that underprivileged group."

This comment sounds as though raku has forgotten Dan was responding to a question he received as an advice columnist. You know, as part of his job? Raku makes it sound as though Dan's advice was unsolicited and that Dan was just sitting around one day when he thought, "As a 'superior white dude,' I had better write a column telling bisexuals how to live their lives!" No, he was simply answering a question that had been asked of him.

BTW, raku, did you read the original letter? I thought Dan's advice was spot on, and he even has science on his side. Psychological studies have shown the best way to change stereotypes and prejudices is for those who hold those views to meet, and interact with, members of the stereotyped group. How are we supposed to help others see bisexual people, when they won't come out and be seen? How are we supposed to foster better communication with bisexual people if bisexual people aren't out?

It also seems that Raku thinks people can read minds. She gets upset when people think a bisexual person is gay if they are dating a person of the same sex, or straight if they are dating a member of the opposite sex.

I will admit that if I don't know you are bisexual and I see you in a relationship with a member of the same sex, yes, I will likely assume you are gay. And if I don't know you are bisexual, and I see you in a relationship with a member of the opposite sex, I will likely assume you are straight. Do you see the most important part of those sentences? Here's a hint: "If I don't know you are bisexual . . ."

Raku, I cannot read your mind, so if I don't know you are bisexual, I will take it at face value that you are straight if you are in a relationship with a member of the opposite sex, and gay if you are in a relationship with a member of the same sex. And considering the statistical base rates of sexual orientations, I don't believe those are unreasonable assumptions. However, if I know you are bisexual, and I see you with a member of either sex, I will know you are a bisexual person who is in a relationship with this person, regardless of their gender.

I have a good analogy. I have Crohn's, a painful and difficult digestive disease. As such, I have an extremely restricted diet. However, when people meet me, unless I tell them, they would never know this. So, if I'm invited to a party, but I don't tell the host about my dietary restrictions, s/he is going to assume that I can eat pretty much anything, and I have will have no right to be upset if there is nothing there for me to eat. The host cannot read my mind and "know" that I can't eat certain foods. The only way the host can know that is if I tell him/her. And usually when I tell the host, they are very kind and accommodating (although I don't expect it, it's always nice). Telling them puts who I am and what I need out there in the open for all to see. And I hope that by being open about my disease, I will bring greater understanding to those who have never heard of Crohn's disease, and by teaching people about it, I am hoping to make life easier for other people with Crohn's. Rather than thinking of it as just some disease, they now know somebody with it, have heard my struggles with is, and by interacting with me they would be less likely to mistreat or dismiss somebody else who has it.

Now, before anybody freaks out and thinks I'm calling bisexuality a disease, I most certainly NOT doing that. While I may be straight (and although I'm not a "dude," I am white), I respect LGBT individuals and strongly support their fight for equality. I'm only using my own experience to help raku understand that you cannot expect the world to change or accommodate you unless you are willing to let the world know why they need to do so. In other words, it's unfair for you to be upset with people who assume you are either gay or straight when you haven't told them you are bisexual. In addition, it is also unreasonable for you to believe that bisexuals can stay closeted and still somehow make their presence known at the same time.

Sorry for the long comment, and seriously, I wasn't saying bisexuality is a disease. We all have aspects of ourselves that we need to share with the world. I want to educate the world about Crohn's disease, and so I am open about it. Dan was just saying that if you want to educate the world about your bisexuality, the best way to do that is to be out and open about it.
68
Can I not transcend my white male-ness and be a human, just as all other minorities are humans?

No, not really. Even the way you phrased the question grounds you in your white maleness--you balance white against all other minorities, which makes being white special, but not only that, you balance white male against all other minorities (male and female), which further privileges you.

Socially, you're never just a human being; you're always a human being who is this or that or some other bunch of things, and the only people who try to hide that tend to be the ones who are the most privileged.

It's like being Mitt and Ann telling us you're like any college student living on a tight budget because you had spaghetti every night.
69
@66 Dan, thanks for responding to my comment.

I get what you're saying about having to come out all the time constantly, even still, as a gay man and a public figure.

The key difference for me, though, has to do with the types of scenarios you mentioned. You came out to the principal and countless others, presumably, because such clarification was necessary in the context. You and Terry are both DJ's parents, so disclosing your relationship with Terry is immediately relevant to any situation when you discuss your family dynamic. Your past relationships and whatever sex and/or fantasy life you have outside of your life with Terry is not relevant in that context, however, so you don't bring those up.

Conversely, a bisexual mother who is married to a man has no need to come out to her child's principal, or most other people really, even when interrogated about her family relationships (unless she divorces her husband and begins to date a woman, or is poly and involved with another woman). She would simply have no reason to announce her orientation in most casual/professional situations. She could if she wanted to, and it would be awkward--no more or less than it likely was for you in that room full of first-graders--but she'd be the one starting that conversation.
70
Dan, blaming bi folks as a group (I'm queer, is that close enough?) for not being out is not okay, but I'm not mad. Just like everyone else you make mistakes, and this is one of those times. It's just not your place to tell another disadvantages group how to alleviate their oppression. Ever.

Things you're doing right:
- You offer your support. Thank you.
- You share your own experience, from the heart. Thank you.
- You genuinely care - it's obvious. Thank you.

But this time you were wrong. This time you screwed up as an ally, but that's okay. Everyone screws up. We're all learning.

On privilege:

Your privilege and my privilege are very different. I can let people assume that I am straight when they know that I am dating a woman. That can make things easier for me at work and with family, but it also makes it a daily struggle not to slide back into that closet because it's so damn easy to do. Someday I will probably have to come out to my parents again who I'm pretty sure think I'm straight again and are relieved that I've been saved from hell. I can walk into any straight bar and kiss my current partner (primary at least) without feeling like I'm making people uncomfortable or, when shooting pool in a run down bar in Forks, fearing for my physical well-being. But you can talk about your partner in a gay bar without having your sexuality questioned.

You and I have some privileges and oppressions that overlap, and others that are completely different. Let's do our best to remember that and to support each other as allies. Thanks.
71
I came out as bisexual to my 2 ultra-conservative, evangelical Christian brothers shortly before reading this post. They are now processing this information. I'm in tears while writing this comment, as they may choose over time to cut me off from my nieces and nephews -or- they may surprise me and accept me. Either way, I had to do it. I did it so that I can live an honest, healthy and full life, but I also did it because I don't see how the world will become more hospitable for our young Bis and Bis in general (and LGBTQ at large) if we adults are not brave enough to come out, even if our current environment is less than hospitable.
72
@12

"White dudes as a group love telling other people what to do" " In western society, this is as unique to white men as"

As a French woman, I feel disrespected by your comment.

It's well known that such behaviour is unique to Frenchies, and while whites are more numerous among us except in the Caribbean part of our territory, half of us are females nevertheless.
73
Wow. So I hear the "angry bisexual" comment a lot. & there it is! Lots of anger.

I sometimes get *exasperated*. Bisexual identity is a difficult thing to maintain, both in heterosexual mainstream society, & in the the LGBT subculture. I can't get all the way worked up to full angry, though, since I live in VA & actively have Republicans trying to crawl right up my uterus every 5 minutes.

So when I read Dan's post the other day, about how a closeted bi person was complaining about a lack of bi out celebrities & he suggested they come out, I didn't get angry. Dan tells everyone around him what to do. Heteros, gay dudes, etc, etc. Goes w/ the whole 'advice columnist' gig. He changes tone when doing more activist-based writing, & yes, his growing profile means thew responsibilities of the impact of his words increases. To me, the word "imploring", above, doesn't scream "telling me what to do" as much as *asking*. My usually easily-twisted knickers weren't bunched up over that as advice.

I myself wouldn't point at all my gay dude friends & say: gay dudes! I think you should be out! all the time! but if a gay dude or gay gal pal said that they were bugged by lack of visibility, yet they themselves weren't out (whatever the reason might be), there's be a certain predictable follow-up reply from me. ;)

I've complained about how lots of different gay folks (as well as straight folks) have talked about or to bisexual people (sometimes RIGHT TO ME). That said: frequency of mention of bisexuals on SLOG & as the writers of SLLLOTDs is on the upswing. Speaking as a bisexual chubby woman who's not as financially empowered as Mr. Dan - but cis & Cacasian, so there's my privilege check, ;) - & a SL reader since almost the beginning - 1994 or '95 - I've seen a definite evolution in his writing about, & yeah, sometimes *to*, bisexuals.

*shrug*I'm also too tired to get super mad 'cause yeah, outing yourself frequently is a bore sometimes (1st world problems). If I'm with a man, I'm straight; a woman, vice-versa. Currently how I handle things, is, if with one gender of partner & this is cool with them, I make sure to indulge my polite & healthy appreciation of the other gender..ie, "Check out that hot waiter/waitress" etc..&,,I'm an LGBT writer/activist, awash with rainbows. I like referring to whomever I'm dating as my partner & never getting pronoun-specific if I don't know someone too well. Weeds out bigots handily without much confrontation. To anyone who matters..family, friends, etc..just, I'm out. Out out out. It's just easier, though I've lost some relatives in the process.

You *do* come from a place of privilege now, Mr. Dan, though you have worked hard for it.

Admit it Dan. You love us bis! Lookit those page hits rack on up. Just remember..someday..Bi Slog Happy..I am gonna make this happen.

74
This column reminded me, BTW, for those of you that remember a previous Slogger named Memorex (my-Dan), he was bi, also, & we knew each other IRL but didn't now that *about* each other 'til we connected here on Slog, on Valentine's Day, a few years ago. W/out Dan Savage's writing about it, my-Dan (Memorex) wouldn't have written me elsewhere & I wouldn't have gotten to know him as well as I did.

Thanks, Dan.

(& I miss & love you Memorex.)
75
@Buffy_isOK

That was very brave of you. I wish you success and peace of mind.
76
As a bisexual--the minority in question in this thread--I can with impunity say that Raku is a prejudiced and pettifogging twit, and no ally to me.

But hey that is just one white dude's opinion.
77
@76 I had never heard the word pettifogging before, and I had to look it up."Placing undue emphasis on petty details." I plan to use this word regularly with the (many, many) pedants in my life. Marvelous.
78
M?s Frog/B - There aren't a lot of alternate default assumptions available. Assume everyone to be bi? That would seem just as erasing. Do away with the concept of sexual orientation entirely, as I've seen listed as a major agenda point on radical bi sites? Mine has been very useful; I fought hard to get it; it will have to be pried from my cold, dead, gay hands. Unringing the bell by coming up with a way not to assume anything from visible evidence is rahter a time-waster and would be extremely convoluted.

The best I can do personally at the moment lies in my personal use of same-sexer and opposite-sexer for G/L or S whenever the categorization reflects the possibility of B being included. When I say gay, I definitely refer to men who aren't attracted to women and not just men with visibly male-only partners/histories. Feel free to improve on that; I certainly would if I could, and certainly don't think that's the be-all and end-all Solution.
79
I love love love that Raku's avatar is "Never read the comments," and his/her comments are never worth reading.

I also love Fnarf, to an extent that is, frankly, somewhat shocking and inappropriate.
80
And reading this thread reminds me, yet again, why I don't get involved in left politics. Unless you perpetually abase yourself you will be verbally abused because no matter what your status there WILL be someone whose oppression is different who will savage you because you didn't humiliate yourself to them adequately(hooray intersectionality!). As someone who has issues around verbal abuse it just isn't worth it to help people who react with hostility and bitterness when you try to help them.

TL;DR- "the Right looks for converts, the Left looks for traitors"

81
@70 "It's just not your place to tell another disadvantages group how to alleviate their oppression. Ever."

lol who makes this dumb shit up?

stfu with your silly rules about place and propriety. Messages, including advice and social commentary. ought to be judged on their inherent worth, not on their speaker. You seek to replace one privilege for another, to create an aristocracy of victims and a tribalistic exclusivity amongst the oppressed. That won't help.

Listen, I appreciate the tone of your letter was a gentle remonstrance, I do. But it's based on a wrong idea - one that refuses to acknowledge the basic human traits of empathy and understanding, and that we work best when we work together, including to lift oppression against our fellow members of society, even if we are not members of the oppressed group. One does not move toward equality by separating people.
82
Let's just get Dan to stop pretending that he knows anything about straight or lesbian relationships and call it a day. Deal?
83
I would like for Raku to construct some kind of "oppression chart" or "victim chart" so we know who has the most creedance on every issue.

For example, Ophian at #76 is bi, but also white and male, so do the whiteness and maleness supercede being bi, or is Ophian still allowed to make statements about being bi? I was born poor and rural, but have worked my way into a comfortable life but am both white and male, so am I allowed to speak on issues of childhood poverty? We really need a chart.

Because the content of one's character and speech do not matter, only the color of their skin and their gender/sexuality, right Raku?
84
@37
Can I not transcend my white male-ness and be a human, just as all other minorities are humans?

No, you can't. You see, the "other minorities" need an enemy and you are it.
85
@70 "It's just not your place to tell another disadvantages group how to alleviate their oppression. Ever. "

Bullshit.

Particularly when the person giving the advice is a member of a disadvantaged group that is making progress, and he has been a significant player in that progress. He's telling you what works. You don't have to follow his advice, but he has every right to give his opinion.

If I were Dan then at this point my response when ever I got a question or comment about something related to bisexuals would be just to print "No Comment" and be done with.

This may be surprising but Dan is a writer and advice columnist. I know that may seem self evident to some, but you seem to miss this important fact.

See, what that means is that people write or call into Dan specifically because they WANT to hear his opinion on these things. They are asking for advice or inviting comment.

Suggesting that he shouldn't give his opinion when someone rights into his ADVICE column soliciting his opinion is, well, totally missing the point of an advice column.

At this point perhaps all the rest of us should just step back and leave bi-liberation / bi-erasure issues completely in the hands of bi people. When a bi person complains about being invisible or not being treated as they want the only thing anyone should say is, "So, what are you doing about that?"

Because when Dan actually suggests things that you CAN do about it he gets crapped on for it. So fine, we will listen, but it is up to you to speak. We won't interfere, but it is up to you to do what ever it is that needs to be done.

All I can say is, good luck getting anything done from the closet.
86
@1, 12, etc.

I just don't get why Dan comes in for criticism for telling bisexual people how to live. After all, a bisexual person wrote him and,...you know...asked for advice.

87
Sort of a philosphical question at the heart of this:

What's the difference between a half-truth and a lie?
If I'm bi and everyone thinks I'm straight, that's sort of a half-truth. If I'm gay and everyone thinks I'm straight, that's living a lie.

Some people would say it's the same situation, but I'm not so sure.
88
I wanted to comment on the actual topic of this post--bi-sexual self-invisibility--until I realized that the thread has been hijacked by Allies 'R' Us.

Ahem:

"I'm sorry, but I do disagree with you, but because I do disagree with you but am not a member of your group I'm going to stop talking now because when I talk I'm not listening to YOUR truth and your TRUTH must be THE truth because it cannot be my truth because I have not experienced life as a member of your group...."

Why can't allies hear what condescending, hand-wringing, ideologically policing, self-defeating bullshit this is?!? Why, why, WHY?!?!?

You are not acknowledging a person as an equal if you base whether or not you engage with them honestly on the group in which you have placed them. This is the politics of fools.

89
I don't understand. Who are you expecting me to tell that sometimes I don't really care what genitals I play with? When is this supposed to come up in conversation?
90
Mr Gorath - And don't forget Mr Ophian's partnership with Mr Rhone - bi/white with gay/black. It's like the Sprats. If only one of them were trans, they'd be entitled to make all the rules for the universe. Or universally disqualified, whichever tack one takes.
91
M? Watch @89 - You might start with whenever someone presumes you indulge with one model exclusively - or appears to presume, which is bound to happen often enough to give you plenty of practice.
92
The thing I'm not clear on is, what should bicurious* people do? Probably keep their wishy-washy selves closeted lest they increase the 'bi people need to make up their minds' side of biphobia?

*Assuming monogamously partnered with one or the other gender, and thus unable to clarify their situation. I know several people of both genders who are like this.

@71 - You are so brave, and I hope your brothers can be a fraction as brave as you are, and accept you.
93
Hey Raku: Shut the fuck up, you moron.

There, now you can go masturbate furiously. Don't bother to thank me, you can just add it to my next privilege check. You racist, sexist, bigoted idiot.
94
I'd like to hear just one of you incensed bisexual activists explain how bisexuals are supposed to become more visible without coming out. Just try to come up with an alternative to what Dan said. I double-dog dare you.

Answers that violate the laws of physics not accepted.
95
So Raku what you're saying is that no one should ever interact with someone who is different from them. That we should all just stay in small groups with people just like us and at no point should we try to share knowledge, culture, insight, or recipes. That the only way to be 'fair' is to completely isolate ourselves.

Sounds pretty racist to me.
96
I'm the one who wrote that comment, and once again Dan Savage completely misses the point.
Nobody is saying that bisexuals shouldn't come out, but when you respond to an out bisexual writing an article wishing that more bisexual celebrities would come out by claiming she's in the closet you are not encouraging anyone to come out.
Let's just for a moment look at what happens when a celebrity comes out as bisexual, Tom Daley describes his sexuality in a way that sound bisexual, nobody will call him bisexual.
Lady Gaga comes out multiple times, people claim she's faking it
Alan Cumming comes out as bisexual (even lending his face to the "I Am Visible" campaign) people interviewing him are shocked when he talks about his ex wife.
Maria Ospina writes an post about how coming out would be easier with role models, Dan Savage calls her a closet case.
97
@96 -"Nobody is saying that bisexuals shouldn't come out" - except the bisexual individuals on this thread that actually have said that don't see any reason to come out.

The impression I get is that within the bisexual community, never mind the LGBTQ community, there is a lot of disagreement on issues of disclosure and labelling, both of which are likely contributing to bisexual invisibility.

Which brings me to Tom Daly - he had never described himself as bisexual. He states that he has fallen in love with a man but still finds women attractive. Now that may a bisexual make, but I find it rather hypocritical to apply the bisexual label to him in the same way you find it unacceptable that Alan Cumming is labelled "gay" when he has stated he is bisexual. That is why no one does, or should, call Tom Daly bisexual. He may identify as heteroflexible, queer or prefer not to use any label at all.

Coming out certainly would be easier with role models and I agree that when someone comes out as bisexual, there identity should be respected. But remember, before Ellen and Neil Patrick Harris could feel safe enough in their careers to come out publicly, it was ordinary gay and lesbian folk with no high profile who led the way. Indeed, it was only though acceptance in the general public of lesbian and gay individuals that gay and lesbian celebrities can come out.

Maria Ospina is clearly no longer in the closet (unless she uses a pseudonym) but it is a fair comment that bisexual individuals should not be expecting celebrities to come out first to act as role models - that will only come with greater visibility in the general population.
98
@97 strange how many people were quick to label Tom Daley gay until bisexual people spoke up. Dan points out Harvey Milk calling on people to come out, did he not count as a celebrity?
I just think it's amazing how many times I hear gays talk about how hard it was for them yet they show no interest in helping bisexuals
99
@98 - I don't know how it was wherever you are based, but in the UK, the vast majority of media outlets did not label Tom Daley's sexuality. They simply stated he announced his relationship with a man but that he still fancied women. He can certainly be claimed as a member of the LGBTQ community, but he cannot be labelled as bisexual or gay - that's his choice to make not anyone else.

I think Harvey Milk would count as a celebrity these days, but in context of the time I doubt many people outside of of the gay community or California would know who he was. Talking about openly LGBT celebrities nowadays would mean individuals in the mainstream media who are recognisable to the population at large.

I agree that gay and lesbian people should be helping bisexual people come out (although it has also been stated on this thread that those of us who are not bisexual should not have any say in the matter, so I guess we're fucked in that respect) and I agree that more openly bisexual public figures would certainly help.

But I would hasten to add that I think knowing a relative, friend or loved one is bisexual has far more power in confronting an individual's attitudes about bisexuality than a public figure with no personal relation.
100
I've noticed some bisexuals complaining about having to come out constantly and inappropriately. I imagine one of them sitting down to dinner with an opposite-sexed date, and when the waiter takes their drinks they go, "I'm not really straight, y'know. This could have just as easily been a gay date, since I am bisexual. Please make a note of it. Also, what do you have on tap?" I don't think it needs to be that way. As someone who goes down for a multiplicity of genders, I find I bring it up when the conversation naturally goes there. I never blast it from the rooftops, but I also never hide it. Some of my coworkers know because we talk about dating and sex. My boss and I don't talk dating and sex--so she doesn't know. I never make a big deal out of it--most of the time people can fill in the blanks when I mention being attracted to girls. This is what's worked for me--and seems to be the strategy for many of the gay men I work with as well. (Most of them mention their partner or their husband, and we all just take the hint. I've never had a gay coworker formally "come out" to me.) The reality is that most people (gay, straight, bi, or miscellaneous) will be assumed to be straight. It's our job to disabuse them of that belief when it comes up. There are plenty of opportunities if you're genuinely out and open.
101
@96 Lady Gaga elaborately micromanaging her evrey appearance makes people doubting her word whenever she says anything about her. She could say she's straight, or say she's gay, and people would doubt her the exact same way.

If she said she's into polyester dolls or glue, now that's something people would believe more readily.
102
@100, thank you! People on this thread are talking as though coming out is always some huge proclamation. The easiest way to be open about being bisexual is to simply discuss your dating/sex life in the same way that anyone else does with friends/coworkers/whatever.

One of my best friends is a fabulous bisexual woman. When we met, she was dating a guy, so I went with the default assumption that she was straight. But then we were having a conversation over drinks about exes, and she said, "Ugh, my ex girlfriend used to do this thing..." And that was it. She didn't, like, introduce me to the guy she was dating and say, "Oh, by the way, don't assume that I'm straight because I'm dating him. I'm bi. Bi, bi, bi. Take that, bisexual invisibility!" She just discussed her dating life candidly, and I got the picture.

And there are plenty of ways that this can come up. "What's your type?" "Well, it's funny, I tend to prefer men who are taller than me and women who are shorter." Or, in a drunker conversation, "OMG, I just saw the hottest couple and couldn't decide if I wanted to fuck the guy or the girl more. Guess it'll have to be a threesome..."

And bringing it up in normal conversation rather than wedging it in does double duty, because it also indicates to people that being bi is not a big deal. Which you can then reinforce. If someone stops you and says, "Wait, you said ex girlfriend...don't you have a boyfriend?", you can say, "Yeah, I'm bisexual. So anyway, she snored so loud..." Then, if they really push you to talk about it, you have the chance to educate them from the standpoint that it isn't a big thing. Which is really powerful, I think.
103
Straight, white, cis-female here, saying my piece for de-invisblizing the bi, whenever the subject comes up, I do like to say that I like bisexuality in a guy.
104
Now, I know it's different for gay people and bisexual people, but being gay I know first hand that the only way a gay person actually stays in the closet is through lying. Coming out for a gay person doesn't need to involved any kind of an announcement. If you are gay and you don't actively put energy into lying and hiding then you are out.

Because most people don't make big announcements relating to their sexuality, but everyone talks about their sexuality in some way pretty constantly. Talk about spouses, or dates, or exs, or who they find attractive... If you are gay and not actively hiding it you are out by default.

Now bisexual people may be able to be closeted without having to actively lie like a gay person would have to, but I am willing to bet that every bisexual person who is in the closet has dozens of opportunities where, in order to stay in the closet, they make a conscious decision to not say something and let another person's assumptions about them stand when they could, if they chose, correct them and in doing so come out without having to send out a formal press release.

And even the most out gay person has to come out over and over again. Coming out is a never ending process. Every time you meet someone new. Every time you talk to someone who doesn't already know. Even just deciding to hold your partner's hand while walking down the street is an active decision to "come out" all over again.

I'm sorry for the bisexuals who feel having to come out is such a burden, but not really. As a gay guy my life is one constant series of "coming outs" over and over again, and I really don't get a choice other than to lie to people and put far more energy into hiding it than coming out. If all us nelly little out fags can handle the stress and burden of having to come out over and over and over and over again, so can all the bisexuals. I have faith in you all.

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