I am a heavy tipper, to the irritation of my wife, I'll adjust my tip downward.
I'll adjust.
Do not include tips in the equation. Tips are above and beyond expected service, not base cost, not base wage.
If I have to vote on that then fine, let's vote.
It's such a lazy management tool. Sorry, you're going to have to actually observe and evaluate employees, and not rely on subpar wages+tips to self deport employees from your business.
Would The Stranger please add a correction to Andrew Friedman's Your Favorite Indie Shop Is Out of Business if $15-an-Hour Happens? In the article Friedman throws around some numbers from his bar, Liberty, which he calls "facts", after mocking low-wage activists for "emotion-based polemics, apples-to-oranges 'facts,' and simple slogans."
But then in the comments, Friedman admits that his "facts" were made up! He wasn't giving us Liberty's real numbers. He was giving us pretend numbers that he thought would boost his argument. Forget the problem with cherry-picking numbers from your books instead of giving us everything in your books. Even his cherry-picked statistics were bullshit.
Op-ed is op-ed, but when your whole central thesis is that you're a business owner bringing real-life data from your very own business, you need to post an explicit correction when it turns out all that data is a pack of lies.
Also, maybe add a [citation needed] to the claim that Liberty is anybody's favorite. I mean, come on.
Female Computer Scientists Make the Same Salary as Their Male Counterparts
According to a new study by the American Association of University Women, there is no statistical difference between female and male programmers' salaries one year out of college.
The same holds true for women who go into engineering, mathematics and physical sciences
As someone who waited tables for the last fifteen years and, unless something has changed between now and the last time I used the bathroom, is a man, let me give you all a reality check:
So a server in Seattle works a slow dinner shift at a low end restaurant. He works a total of six hours (standard dinner shift) and has twenty guests who each spend an average of $20 (low end restaurant) They tip an average of 18%. So, they tip a total of $72. Then, as many people don't realize, he "tips out" the support staff, giving the busser, hostess and maybe bartender a portion of their tips at a pre-determined percentage, say, 15%. That leaves him with $61.20.
So, add to that WA's MW of 9.32/hour at six hours of work, or 55.92, and the tips at 61.20, you end up with 117.12. Divided by the hours worked that equals....drum roll: $19.52/hour.
And that's for a SLOW NIGHT AT A LOW END RESTAURANT.
The issue is this: there is an obvious difference between someone having a tip jar at Starbucks and a waiter at Canlis. But the government treats them both the same.
Yes, Starbucks baristas aren't really working for tips...but if you really think the servers at Wild Ginger or even the Cheesecake Factory are the "starving proletariat masses", you really need to lay off the acid.
I worked for tips on the East Coast and made 2.25/hour plus tips...and I still was able to pay my rent, my bills, and buy a Cadillac.
Collectivism, dear, I have a feeling that any restaurant that would hire someone as charming as you would soon become "low end" if it wasn't already, and that any shift you worked would be, by definition, "slow" .
Seeing as that person working a six-hour shift probably doesn't get the opportunity to make up another two hours of work somewhere else, it would be more of an "apples to apples comparison" to use an eight-hour average as opposed to six, since that's the standard work-day, in which case the earnings come down to $14.64 per hour.
And it's highly unlikely people will stop tipping service workers altogether if they're earning $15.00 an hour; more likely they'll simply tip at a lower percentage, say, 10% instead of the current 18 - 20%. This, combined with the inevitable price hike of at least 5% by restaurant owners to cover the additional payroll expense, not to mention obviating the need for tip-sharing (since the bussers & dish washers will also be making $15 an hour), and these workers will still take home a decent amount of money.
The restaurant industry pays damn good money for the hours worked, and that is the point. As for "tip sharing", that HAS TO HAPPEN. It's only fair: the busser, host and runner was just as much a part of things as the server and hence the servers will still tip out the support staff.
And yes, people will top a lot less or nothing at all if the MW goes up to a psychotic 15/hour: http://www.cnbc.com/id/101451789
I know because I make a lot LESS MONEY HERE in Seattle than I did on the East Coast because we make such a high MW here. On the East Coast I made 2/hour and more than made up for it in tips, here I make a higher hourly but end up making less because of Seattle tippers who know how much I make hourly and tip less.
An article on recession trends of, wait for it, 2009. Go fuck yourself.
@8
Oh, no! A single industry pays women equally! Sawant must be wrong! Even though if you read the actual study, you still very much see that women who earn computer science degrees earn less than men one year after graduating. And there's no way that the small sample size of women compared to males in the workforce could cause discrepancies in the data. Nor could you, say, connect it to another study released on the same day.
@13, In your earlier post you said that at your current job, you get an average 18% tip and make about $19/hr, where roughly 50% of your wage comes from tips. Are you saying that on the East coast, with a $2 minimum wage, people tip 30-40%? Because I'm pretty sure that is not the experience of any other waiters on the East coast and certainly was not my experience when I was a waiter on the East coast.
@13 "The restaurant industry pays damn good money for the hours worked, and that is the point."
Despite what most studies have shown, ever.You do realize that just because you say something, doesn't automatically make it true. When you have data disproving the disproportionate amount of people who work in the same field as you living in poverty, then you can talk. Otherwise, you're full of shit.
Oh, look, a scare tactic article with inherently meaningless and unscientific "points". Hey, everybody, the sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Also, if people are so willing to drop their tips, they probably aren't tipping very well to begin with.
"I know because I make a lot LESS MONEY HERE in Seattle than I did on the East Coast because we make such a high MW here."
All these baseless, meaningless assertions. Jesus, if you hate it so much here, WHY ARE YOU HERE? Why would you stay in a city where you are paid significantly less with at least equitable expenses? I know, because you're full of shit! You're a liar. A lying fucking twit. That's why.
PROVE to me that Seattle tips less than the East Coast. Show me tangible evidence proving this instead of all the tripe you're pulling out of your ass.
Because he's a bold faced liar. He's scum. He will say anything to keep his Imaginationland in check. Because this is a character he's playing and he tries to make himself seem authoritative by LYING about his profession and race. In all likelihood, he's just Meinert with a fake account.
So, calling someone "scum, a liar, a fraud, etc" is really a way to win a debate...okay.
This guy is also a libertarian of African-American descent...is he also "lying about his race and background" and just using make up? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85OIBOSJ…
Anyway, here is the Department of Labor page on what restaurant servers make. In the State of Washington it is about 28,000/year on average. Now, when you factor that that includes the entire state and that rural areas with less expensive restaurants will bring the average down, you can easily see how this proves what I've been saying..well, that and my math that no one has been able to refute.
And I made more money on the East Coast because restaurants are busier over there and the people do tip more. More guests, more tips.
But by all means, keep ignoring facts and resorting to name calling. All it does is make it clear for all that the 15Now crowd has no legs to stand on.
Oh, and I'm in the process of getting the money together to move out of this cesspool of liberal intolerance and going to Houston, where business is booming, opportunities abound and they actually have multiple political parties, unlike one-party Seattle.
Living here has turned me from a progress to a libertarian. Only a "progressive" will respond to "well, I think there are better ways of fighting poverty than raising the MW" with "YOU DUMB FUCTARD LIAR SCUM YOU DIE YOU MEAT EATING PIECE OF SHIT REPUBLICAN ASSHOLE CUNT FUCKING SHIT SUCKING..." blah blah blah.
And why is it everyone brings Ron Paul up out of nowhere? Can I just write 15Now off as being "A bunch of fuckmonkeys who are funny looking Ralph Nader fans"? No.
And it is especially pathetic to call me a "Ron Paul" something or rather while completely ignoring that it is Lysander Spooner, not Ron Paul, who is in my profile picture.
But why talk to someone who childishly curses every chance they get and ignored all evidence provided? I think this meme was intended for you: http://p.twimg.com/A10keYHCQAE-Z1o.jpg:l…
And as for the women and pay myth, the issue is that women are not as likely as men to pick a college major that pays well. Here are some more of those annoying "facts" that 15Now people hate so much: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/20…
Oh, and black and Asian women with degrees make more than white women with degrees...does that mean America needs white woman Affirmative Action? Source: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/byth…
Why? Because white women are more likely than black or Asian women to major in something like Anthropology or History.
Collectivism_sucks is moving to Houston? How wonderful for you, dear! I just checked, and there are 56 Whataburgers in Houston proper. You should have no trouble getting a job.
@24
Do they carry Saint-Amour? Few things go with a burger as well as a nice Cru Beujolais with that nice mineral component...or perhaps a Chinon. Rose's from Cab Franc tend to be bigger in mouth feel and hence can stand up to a greasy burger.
But then again, in Seattle, the hipsters like you prefer a nice, aged PBR and a vegan tofu omelette with Marion Berrys or whatever God awful hipster concoction the local 99% white population consumes.
I support a more moderate approach to raising the minimum wage locally (I support a more aggressive approach to raising the minimum wage nationally) but I agree completely with Sawant on this one. There are a lot of ways to compromise on this issue (raise the wage more slowly, add exemptions for small businesses, or better yet, a mixture of the two) but a lower wage for tipped workers is stupid. What if a worker gets paid a low base wage and has a bad night? Can she then sue her employer? Does her base wage go up and down based on tips (making tips as a measure of service pretty much meaningless)? It's a really stupid idea that should be taken off the table while folks debate the other sensible ideas (how quickly should the wage go up and what exceptions should be made for non-profit or small businesses).
@26 the employer makes up the difference between the lower base wage and the minimum wage for everyone else so on a bad night the server is never making less than $15. On a good night the server is making $15 plus tips.
@26
I waited tables for 15 years, and "bad night" are offset by "good nights." As I said, I paid a rent, paid bills and bought a Cadillac as a server making 2.50/hour plus tips on the East Coast.
When it comes to looking at each individual industry, the pay gap tends to narrow and in a few cases, like being a dental hygienist, women even do slightly better. That being said, in aggregate, women make 75% of what men make. The fact that we devalue work that's disproportionately done by women is a huge problem in our society.
@32, so a daycare worker should be paid the same as a construction worker is what you are saying? You are suggesting we value construction over children?
Or perhaps is possible that it is harder to get people to do construction work than daycare work, that the market dictates a higher wage for a job that is harder to fill?
Or maybe that isn't the case in that particular example, but we can not dismiss the fact that WE make choices, and those choices effect what we make. All jobs are not equal, but there is no reason that women can't work at jobs that pay more if her goal is to make more money. To do the same thing and whine about someone doing something different making more money is just, well, whining.
@4 - Goldy, weren't you let go from The Stranger? Can't you take a hint?
"[Andrew Friedman] wasn't giving us Liberty's real numbers."
He's right! As I mentioned in my comments, I simplified them - TO MY OWN ARGUMENT'S DETRIMENT! If I had included all of the taxes that I have to contribute ON TOP of wages (as a % of gross employee income, meaning, my contribution GROWS as income grows) and the amount of increase in wages that I will have to pay as the near, at or over MW get wage increases, my % and numbers in my post were actually LOWER than what I'll really pay. But, you'd know that if you knew ANYTHING about the most basic small-biz accounting and business practices.
And, since then, Tom Douglas has confirmed my numbers, as have many other business owners (along with people who know what they are taking about), so what this really is is people like you with a bias and agenda with more ill and partisan intent than someone being honest with the numbers and honest with the public.
In other words...dishonest, manipulative & propagandistic.
"Seeing as that person working a six-hour shift probably doesn't get the opportunity to make up another two hours of work somewhere else, it would be more of an "apples to apples comparison" to use an eight-hour average as opposed to six, since that's the standard work-day, in which case the earnings come down to $14.64 per hour."
What? No. Probably doesn't get the opportunity? No. Have you ever known a bartender? Most that I know specifically work PT ONLY--BECAUSE THE PAY IS SO GOOD YOU CAN AFFORD TO DO IT PT and still work on your "dream," like grad school or starting your own small business or auditioning for Drag Race.
I do not understand where you're going with this...now tipped workers get to work two hours less than untipped workers and get paid for those two hours they didn't work?
I'll adjust.
Do not include tips in the equation. Tips are above and beyond expected service, not base cost, not base wage.
If I have to vote on that then fine, let's vote.
It's such a lazy management tool. Sorry, you're going to have to actually observe and evaluate employees, and not rely on subpar wages+tips to self deport employees from your business.
Is Out of Business if $15-an-Hour Happens? In the article Friedman throws around some numbers from his bar, Liberty, which he calls "facts", after mocking low-wage activists for "emotion-based polemics, apples-to-oranges 'facts,' and simple slogans."
But then in the comments, Friedman admits that his "facts" were made up! He wasn't giving us Liberty's real numbers. He was giving us pretend numbers that he thought would boost his argument. Forget the problem with cherry-picking numbers from your books instead of giving us everything in your books. Even his cherry-picked statistics were bullshit.
Op-ed is op-ed, but when your whole central thesis is that you're a business owner bringing real-life data from your very own business, you need to post an explicit correction when it turns out all that data is a pack of lies.
Also, maybe add a [citation needed] to the claim that Liberty is anybody's favorite. I mean, come on.
Except for the top 1% - they're doing fine.
This during a period of unparalleled productivity increases.
For the 10,000th time, productivity has increased only because of better technology. If anything, the smart phone should be paid a better wage.
As for women's wages: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/14/busine…
Female Computer Scientists Make the Same Salary as Their Male Counterparts
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news…
Hah! Great job! But do you really think Sawant and her Kool-aid drinkers care about facts?
As someone who waited tables for the last fifteen years and, unless something has changed between now and the last time I used the bathroom, is a man, let me give you all a reality check:
So a server in Seattle works a slow dinner shift at a low end restaurant. He works a total of six hours (standard dinner shift) and has twenty guests who each spend an average of $20 (low end restaurant) They tip an average of 18%. So, they tip a total of $72. Then, as many people don't realize, he "tips out" the support staff, giving the busser, hostess and maybe bartender a portion of their tips at a pre-determined percentage, say, 15%. That leaves him with $61.20.
So, add to that WA's MW of 9.32/hour at six hours of work, or 55.92, and the tips at 61.20, you end up with 117.12. Divided by the hours worked that equals....drum roll: $19.52/hour.
And that's for a SLOW NIGHT AT A LOW END RESTAURANT.
The issue is this: there is an obvious difference between someone having a tip jar at Starbucks and a waiter at Canlis. But the government treats them both the same.
Yes, Starbucks baristas aren't really working for tips...but if you really think the servers at Wild Ginger or even the Cheesecake Factory are the "starving proletariat masses", you really need to lay off the acid.
I worked for tips on the East Coast and made 2.25/hour plus tips...and I still was able to pay my rent, my bills, and buy a Cadillac.
Seeing as that person working a six-hour shift probably doesn't get the opportunity to make up another two hours of work somewhere else, it would be more of an "apples to apples comparison" to use an eight-hour average as opposed to six, since that's the standard work-day, in which case the earnings come down to $14.64 per hour.
And it's highly unlikely people will stop tipping service workers altogether if they're earning $15.00 an hour; more likely they'll simply tip at a lower percentage, say, 10% instead of the current 18 - 20%. This, combined with the inevitable price hike of at least 5% by restaurant owners to cover the additional payroll expense, not to mention obviating the need for tip-sharing (since the bussers & dish washers will also be making $15 an hour), and these workers will still take home a decent amount of money.
http://cf.chucklesnetwork.com/items/5/7/…
The restaurant industry pays damn good money for the hours worked, and that is the point. As for "tip sharing", that HAS TO HAPPEN. It's only fair: the busser, host and runner was just as much a part of things as the server and hence the servers will still tip out the support staff.
And yes, people will top a lot less or nothing at all if the MW goes up to a psychotic 15/hour: http://www.cnbc.com/id/101451789
I know because I make a lot LESS MONEY HERE in Seattle than I did on the East Coast because we make such a high MW here. On the East Coast I made 2/hour and more than made up for it in tips, here I make a higher hourly but end up making less because of Seattle tippers who know how much I make hourly and tip less.
An article on recession trends of, wait for it, 2009. Go fuck yourself.
@8
Oh, no! A single industry pays women equally! Sawant must be wrong! Even though if you read the actual study, you still very much see that women who earn computer science degrees earn less than men one year after graduating. And there's no way that the small sample size of women compared to males in the workforce could cause discrepancies in the data. Nor could you, say, connect it to another study released on the same day.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/201…
Oh, wait, I'm talking to a fuckwit who believes in a Ron Paul Imaginationland. There's no chance you actually know how to read a study.
@9 "And that's for a SLOW NIGHT AT A LOW END RESTAURANT."
Because my personal experience trumps the multiple studies pointing otherwise!
Christ, you're fucking stupid. Just as fucking stupid as Bailo.
Despite what most studies have shown, ever.You do realize that just because you say something, doesn't automatically make it true. When you have data disproving the disproportionate amount of people who work in the same field as you living in poverty, then you can talk. Otherwise, you're full of shit.
Oh, look, a scare tactic article with inherently meaningless and unscientific "points". Hey, everybody, the sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Also, if people are so willing to drop their tips, they probably aren't tipping very well to begin with.
"I know because I make a lot LESS MONEY HERE in Seattle than I did on the East Coast because we make such a high MW here."
All these baseless, meaningless assertions. Jesus, if you hate it so much here, WHY ARE YOU HERE? Why would you stay in a city where you are paid significantly less with at least equitable expenses? I know, because you're full of shit! You're a liar. A lying fucking twit. That's why.
PROVE to me that Seattle tips less than the East Coast. Show me tangible evidence proving this instead of all the tripe you're pulling out of your ass.
Because he's a bold faced liar. He's scum. He will say anything to keep his Imaginationland in check. Because this is a character he's playing and he tries to make himself seem authoritative by LYING about his profession and race. In all likelihood, he's just Meinert with a fake account.
So, calling someone "scum, a liar, a fraud, etc" is really a way to win a debate...okay.
This guy is also a libertarian of African-American descent...is he also "lying about his race and background" and just using make up?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85OIBOSJ…
Anyway, here is the Department of Labor page on what restaurant servers make. In the State of Washington it is about 28,000/year on average. Now, when you factor that that includes the entire state and that rural areas with less expensive restaurants will bring the average down, you can easily see how this proves what I've been saying..well, that and my math that no one has been able to refute.
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes353031…
And I made more money on the East Coast because restaurants are busier over there and the people do tip more. More guests, more tips.
But by all means, keep ignoring facts and resorting to name calling. All it does is make it clear for all that the 15Now crowd has no legs to stand on.
Oh, and I'm in the process of getting the money together to move out of this cesspool of liberal intolerance and going to Houston, where business is booming, opportunities abound and they actually have multiple political parties, unlike one-party Seattle.
Living here has turned me from a progress to a libertarian. Only a "progressive" will respond to "well, I think there are better ways of fighting poverty than raising the MW" with "YOU DUMB FUCTARD LIAR SCUM YOU DIE YOU MEAT EATING PIECE OF SHIT REPUBLICAN ASSHOLE CUNT FUCKING SHIT SUCKING..." blah blah blah.
One year does not a career make.
"one year out of college"
And why is it everyone brings Ron Paul up out of nowhere? Can I just write 15Now off as being "A bunch of fuckmonkeys who are funny looking Ralph Nader fans"? No.
And it is especially pathetic to call me a "Ron Paul" something or rather while completely ignoring that it is Lysander Spooner, not Ron Paul, who is in my profile picture.
But why talk to someone who childishly curses every chance they get and ignored all evidence provided? I think this meme was intended for you:
http://p.twimg.com/A10keYHCQAE-Z1o.jpg:l…
And as for the women and pay myth, the issue is that women are not as likely as men to pick a college major that pays well. Here are some more of those annoying "facts" that 15Now people hate so much:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/20…
Oh, and black and Asian women with degrees make more than white women with degrees...does that mean America needs white woman Affirmative Action? Source: http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/byth…
Why? Because white women are more likely than black or Asian women to major in something like Anthropology or History.
Be careful not to let the pet door slap you on your sorry, dragging ass on your way out.
Good riddance. Now, what more can we do to get Bailo & SB to follow?
Do they carry Saint-Amour? Few things go with a burger as well as a nice Cru Beujolais with that nice mineral component...or perhaps a Chinon. Rose's from Cab Franc tend to be bigger in mouth feel and hence can stand up to a greasy burger.
But then again, in Seattle, the hipsters like you prefer a nice, aged PBR and a vegan tofu omelette with Marion Berrys or whatever God awful hipster concoction the local 99% white population consumes.
I waited tables for 15 years, and "bad night" are offset by "good nights." As I said, I paid a rent, paid bills and bought a Cadillac as a server making 2.50/hour plus tips on the East Coast.
Let's stop lying, Liebertarians ...
(Sometimes I buy it - page A3)
Or perhaps is possible that it is harder to get people to do construction work than daycare work, that the market dictates a higher wage for a job that is harder to fill?
Or maybe that isn't the case in that particular example, but we can not dismiss the fact that WE make choices, and those choices effect what we make. All jobs are not equal, but there is no reason that women can't work at jobs that pay more if her goal is to make more money. To do the same thing and whine about someone doing something different making more money is just, well, whining.
"[Andrew Friedman] wasn't giving us Liberty's real numbers."
He's right! As I mentioned in my comments, I simplified them - TO MY OWN ARGUMENT'S DETRIMENT! If I had included all of the taxes that I have to contribute ON TOP of wages (as a % of gross employee income, meaning, my contribution GROWS as income grows) and the amount of increase in wages that I will have to pay as the near, at or over MW get wage increases, my % and numbers in my post were actually LOWER than what I'll really pay. But, you'd know that if you knew ANYTHING about the most basic small-biz accounting and business practices.
And, since then, Tom Douglas has confirmed my numbers, as have many other business owners (along with people who know what they are taking about), so what this really is is people like you with a bias and agenda with more ill and partisan intent than someone being honest with the numbers and honest with the public.
In other words...dishonest, manipulative & propagandistic.
What? No. Probably doesn't get the opportunity? No. Have you ever known a bartender? Most that I know specifically work PT ONLY--BECAUSE THE PAY IS SO GOOD YOU CAN AFFORD TO DO IT PT and still work on your "dream," like grad school or starting your own small business or auditioning for Drag Race.
I do not understand where you're going with this...now tipped workers get to work two hours less than untipped workers and get paid for those two hours they didn't work?