Comments

1
Stress and booze--they get us all eventually, Dan.
2
Its Friday afternoon. We should ALL get a drink.
3
"..and my husband's husband"? Dan, have you joined the ranks of us polyamorists?
4
I hope this doesn't come across as simply blaming the victim, BAB, but reading the ways you talk about and around what same-sex desire he has, I believe your husband is correctly determining that you are not completely okay with his orientation.
5
@3: uh, put one and one together, if you can...
6
[not sure]

I thought Mr Savage's writing came pre-programmed to dissolve into unreadable gobbledegook (rather like the pages of Elphaba's Grimmerie) when an attempt to read it might be made by a Gender Studies Major.

Then again, from her letter, maybe it has.

Divorce with insouciance before she wakes up and divorces with regret.
7
Let's all drink a toast to alcohol--The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems.
8
LW, as a woman, I can understand your alarm.
However, the lying done here sounds like your man may have been telling himself the lies. To me, much more serious than lying to someone else.
He obviously wanted you to find this behaviour out, because he left the webcam where you could find it. He has continued, because a part of him is seeking to be with other men.
No amount of therapy is gonna wipe this aspect of your man, away. So how do you let this into your marriage?
You could head towards a mmf scenario? Could be fun.
What I feel you may need to do, is step back from all this judging in your mind and bring your many yrs of reading Dan and your gender studies to bear, and accept the situation is shifting.
How are you going to deal with it?
9
What craptacular Gender Studies program did this LW enroll in and can we know the school so we can be extra careful to avoid it?
10
I love when my men are also into men. LW, take advantage of all the hot things he just made possible for you.
11
Doesn't she mean his front handle?
12
@4 & @10, +1.

Sounds like he is a decent guy who has been honest about his orientation. Sounds like she is not cool with that. If she can only freak out about or put up with his bisexuality [if she cannot love and embrace his sexuality] she should do him a favor and cut him loose.

[And I am having a drink right now. Cheers, y'all.]
13
I am surprised nobody has mentioned that she said she has tried to be forgiving (amoungst other things) in regards to his bisexuality. That seems a little troubling, as being bi is not something that needs to be forgiven. She might have just meant she tries to always approach issues generally with those traits, as opposed to this issue specifically. But especially with the comment about how she didn't realize "to what extent" he was bi, makes it seem like she isn't really all that cool with it...
14
The LW is sensitive and that's sort of understandable. But I get a sense she still doesn't quite get the part where he's Bi and men are important. I told my wife BEFORE we are married that I was gay and her response was, "Well, as long as you don't go running around with any woman, okay!" She didn't get it. She and the LW seem similar to me. They think that guy who want to suck dick will be converted "by the right woman". Oh, the misery I could have avoided if that were true. The chaos! The embarrassment! The expense! The distrust!

LW, dear. Men masturbate. Period. I'm gay as a goose and I still watch straight porn and my husband of three decades could care less. I guess I fail to understand what the problem is.
15
@4 yes. This stood out to me:

"Although both of us have known that he is bi-curious (and I like to think I am very forgiving,"

On first reading i took that to mean she is "forgiving" of his bi-curiosity, which would be a big problem. If she sees it as some kind of offense, no wonder he was trying to hide it. Giving her the benefit of the doubt, maybe she just means she is a generally forgiving person and so expected to be able to forgive him for his lies.
16
@13 Ack, you wrote my thoughts while I was busy writing my thoughts! /shake fist
17
I am a pedant, I know, but if one is edumacated as a wimmin's studies major presumably is, one should know that "my husband and I read your column," not "my husband and me."
18
@17. Yes, even with my sometimes loose sentence construction, that " me" stood out.
19
The unnecessary apostrophe in "Studies'"and misspelling of "crises" also jumped out at the editor in me. I wish I could just not notice these things....
20
@9 +1

gnot, you really should register so we can all read your comments.
21
How would you actually know that he has never lied to you before?
22
Yea -
Forgiven vs tolerated vs accepted. Seems like a women studies major would be sensitive to the difference. Hmmmm

I hope that reading these comments will lead to an epiphany.
23
A charitable interpretation of "forgiving" could be that it relates to her husband's on-line activities behind her back and not to his bisexuality.
24
Gender Studies' Major

Not surprised this was a waste of money.
25
my strict, rule-abiding, honest, loving, trustworthy and forgiving husband

"Rule-abiding?"

Based on that choice of phrase, I'm going to say she's an over controlling nut who found an insecure and self-hating man to boss around and put up with her crap.
26
In my experience, if someone has to stress multiple times that they "think of themselves" as open/understanding/accepting/etc. then they know that they're full of it. No wonder this guy was hiding things and preemptively feeling shame.
27
@12: "honest about his orientation"? Is "bi-curious" ever the full story? From Dan's letter writers and people I know IRL, "bi-curious" eventually end up looking for some man-on-man action or are completely gay. "I'm bisexual" is sometimes an honest statement, even a stable situation, but "bi-curious" doesn't mean what they want you to think it means.

@21: Yeah, this is the first time she caught him in a lie. Which says something about him. Or her. But not about his veracity.
28
@27 I believe all of the people I know that have ever described themselves as bi-curious have expressed lesser attractions outside their stated orientation and little to no experience there.

Certainly some of them went on to engage in enough activity that one would have to conclude that they had ran through their curiosity and gone back around to work on the parts they liked, but I don't believe that made their earlier identification somehow disingenuous.
29
“my strict, rule-abiding, honest, loving, trustworthy and forgiving husband”

They are from fundamentalist christian backgrounds. Their parents described themselves as ‘biblical.’ They don’t have the vocabulary to talk about things other than as ‘permitted’ or ‘not permitted.’ When someone does something in the ‘not-permitted’ category all they know how to do is either forgive the person or expel them from the community. (With maybe some praying for the person by the entire congregation while they decide.)

She is apparently no longer trying to run her life on biblical principles because she doesn’t mention any children. This suggests that she may have gone to a secular university but it would have been a conservative one, or at least in a conservative location and stocked with conservatives. Majoring in gender studies at the University of Alabama is going to be a different experience from majoring in it at UC Berkeley.

She thinks of herself as extremely open-minded because she’s okay with her husband being bisexual and looking at porn. Still, her thinking remains very rule-based and she hasn’t quite figured out what to replace it with now that they aren’t attempting to live a biblical lifestyle.

If my reading is correct, or not far off the mark, the LW might benefit from reading Libby Anne’s blog Love, Joy, Feminism starting with this post: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfemi…

(Oh, and if my reading is correct it’s possible that the husband is very, very gay. But that will be a different letter.)
30
Also, we saw this letter just four weeks ago. Submitted by a gay guy that time. http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag….
31
Yeah, she's not ok with him being bi.
32
Fellow grammar/punctuation nazi here: @17 @19 +1

Drinking Dan missed all the red flags on this one that the commenters above get: forgiving / accepting / understanding (like he's sick), rule-abiding (like he's a dog), in therapy both but neither have much insight. @26 nails it.
33
@29 +1

The dude may also be closeted gay.

Plenty of genuinely bi guys out there but also some who say "bi" en route to gay, especially ones from biblical backgrounds.

In my book, bi-curious = a slight interest, Kinsey 1.

Jacking it frequently to gay porn & webcam & months-long chats = more like a Kinsey 3 or higher.

I'm guessing he's never dated guys. If so, limiting his bi-side only to anonymous webcam cock rather than experiencing a real connection w/ a guy, kinda sad he's missing out on the wider range of bi-possibilities.

Plus, how can LW think webcamming is "faceless"? Does he wear a mask?
34
@33 Um, no, you just point the camera below the neck and it becomes faceless.
35
@33,

Yep, Mr Bi Curious sounds like he's really Mr Closet Case. I hope Mrs Baffled & Betrayed doesn't have kids with this guy. That always makes the inevitable divorce all the more messy and painful.
37
He's gay; so it's really beside the point that she's not as open-minded as she wants to think of herself as being. She's also being dishonest: it's not just the lying and secrecy that she minds--it's the fact that he's jacking to/with men.

And the point about her being "forgiving" is in direct response to the possibility of his being bi: "Although both of us have known that he is bi-curious (and I like to think I am very forgiving, understanding, and accepting), I didn't realize to what extent. He said that he didn't want a connection with these men but it was simply a way to get off."

As to the rampant bad usage ("my husband and me" was the most egregious and it came so early in the letter), it set me up to be more judgmental of her than I should have been and I wondered why it wasn't edited. I have noticed that occasionally Dan lets bad grammar or syntax through in the letters, but he or someone else at Slog must edit other letters. After all, we've already found out that sometimes things are left out of them, and it's not uncommon for letters to advice columnists to be edited for length or clarity. So when a letter comes through with these kinds of errors (or more than one), I can only assume that that editorial decision was deliberate and it's intended to affect our reaction to the letter-writer, whom we can now hold in contempt for her command of written English as much as we can for her professed tolerance which is blatantly intolerance, as well as her comments about rule-following. If that's the case, it's kind of a cheap shot, and unfair, as it doesn't appear to be equally applied to all letters (I'm pretty sure that many more people make spelling, diction, syntax, grammar, or punctuation mistakes in the letters as originally written than we see).

Then again, Dan's the guy who ends each podcast by saying "Me and the tech-savvy, at-risk youth . . . " so perhaps he doesn't see it or care.
38
@37, yes, the fundigelican christian line is that nobody’s gay. Some people commit the sins of performing homosexual acts and having homosexual thoughts and others don’t, is all. (That’s what makes those who don’t better than those who give in. As someone who boasts about committing sexual sin with a consenting life partner, Dan Savage has no business criticizing other people who give into temptation and commit sexual sins with infants they aren’t married to.)

That’s why she thinks that she’s being tolerant by forgiving her husband for the transgressive acts of thinking about men and occasionally even looking at pictures of them. If he’s gay, it’s possible that he tried to tell her and she didn’t process the information. “No men are gay, that’s just a word to describe men choosing to have sex with men. He’s not having sex with men therefore he isn’t gay.”

Making things worse for her: if he’s gay I bet their sex life is terrible.

This is so sad. I hope she didn’t graduate from university. If she arrived at university only knowing what homophobic, bisexual preachers say about sexuality it would be distressing but unsurprising, depending on where she’s from. If she then made it through four years of gender studies without learning any better that would say some terrible things about american higher education, in at least some places.
39
@29, 33, 35, 37: Yup. Closet case.

"Ashamed of his homosexual urges" and then his claiming "an addiction" (a sex addiction?, a web camming addiction?!?) and his claiming the stress drove him to all the faceless online cock!

Closet cases are forever throwing shit like that at the wall, hoping something sticks - that she'll buy into the bullshit story of the month and he won't have to face the music - yet. Being a frustrated, closeted, lying weasel is no fun. Nor is being married to one.
40
@38: I wonder about their sex life, too. There was no "but our sex life is great (or has gotten better since he's web camming)" nor is there the "lie. . . Online cheating. . . .AND our sex life sucks".
I suspect she's getting as little as she wants because if sex was more important to her, she'd bring it up.

It fits your theory of a fundie couple. They each married the type of respectable person they were each "supposed to", not the guy he really wanted or WTF gets her hot&bothered which she probably hasn't figured out or won't admit.
41
I'd planned to comment last night, but had a drink instead. Good choice.

I like the perception above that both of them are from a fundie background though I believe BAB is trying to show how with it she is by saying she's not only a Women's Studies major but an admirer of Dan and his column. If only it were so, where reading equals comprehension and the ability to extrapolate to suit one's own circumstances. But I guess that's too much to ask for.

Beyond her confusing word salad of way too many adjectives, I wonder why she didn't question his admission of being "bi-curious". Or, considering their probable strict background, was that supposed to be a last-ditch pre-marital confession of SINS he wouldn't commit. I think the letter was edited, but get the impression they had a DADT type of understanding where she permitted (and forgave) him to satisfy his same-sex urges with porn.

Naturally, when he was caught, he threw out the weakest excuses (stressed wife, didn't want to add to it; oh, wait, there's a better one, aka I have a problem, possibly sex addiction).

I don't know what outcome they're hoping to achieve with the counselling but I'm not optimistic, especially if it focuses primarily on him stuffing his urges into the back of the closet. And BAB continuing to "forgive" him. After a while, that can get really, really old.
42
>gender studies major

I hope this guy runs as far away as he can and never looks back.
43
@25 be on notice that I'm screenshotting you
44
And screw you, @42
45
@44: Am I at fault for pointing out that the deluded jackasses that think "gender studies" is a legitimate major tend to be completely off their rocker and more often than not mentally ill?
46
>>Make him understand that he has nothing to fear...and he will never tell you another lie again so long as he lives.>>

Unlikely.

@21/27 >>this is [just] the first time she caught him in a lie.>>

More likely.

Also @27, I'm with @28 -- "bi-curious" is the label straight people adopt before they've had many same-sex experiences (a handful or fewer). After that they either go back to straight / heteroflexible (like me), or they start saying they're bisexual.
47
@45; see how easy it is to throw around the mentally ill tag. Really.
Gender Studies are about Gender . You got a problem with gender as a study topic? Why?
48
@47: Go visit Tumblr sometime and browse the #gender and #social justice tags. Or better yet just go to /r/tumblrinaction and see what good teaching gullible college students that everything is a "social construct" and that your entire personhood is defined by how much or how little privilege you have in society does. Gender studies, women studies, Queer theory, ethnicity studies, all these subjects are a joke and the laughing stock of the rest of the university faculty. And yet every year students shell out tens of thousands of dollars to pursue these studies, and all it gets them is a head full of unwarranted self importance that makes them think that they can preside over any and all committees and tell them how their product/company/methoods/etc are "problematic". I'm not saying that everyone who takes these courses and graduates with these diplomas are head cases, but it certainly seems like it turns them into ones.
49
"HELP! I am a huge fan of your column and love your honesty. My husband and me read your column religiously. And as a strong woman, Gender Studies' Major, and reader of yours, I like to think that I was somewhat open and savvy to various sexual crisis, orientations, desires, situations and nuances."

This woman needs to get her money back from whatever college isn't teaching her proper English.
50
What is this jump thing? I don't understand, my response after the jump? It's just a line of dots, it's not a frikken commercial break.

Please wait...

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