"Feminist women don't want partners who use porn of any kind. Period. That's our choice."

So I guess the gals I dated over the years-- including my wife-- who wanted equal pay for equal work, unrestricted access to contraception and abortion, family-friendly work policies, and less bullshit from alpha dudes with raging senses of entitlement were not actually feminists. All because they don't give a shit what consenting adults do in front of a camera. Got it.

Re: letter two

And here I thought Andrea Dworkin was dead.
I love how she says to stop being so high and mighty while basically having a fit and falling into it.
Fun times. you're right, Dan, sometimes you can just tell that there is no use trying to hold a conversation with some people. let alone an argument.

Wow, that was exhausting even to glance at as my eyes glazed over. I can't imagine the energy it took to actually write it.

Unsigned makes some damn good points that SNAP was dishonest from the start and is just as complicit in his failed marriage as his wife is (maybe more so), but she needs to stop speaking for all feminist women. "Feminist women don't want partners who use porn of any kind"? "Period"? Speak for yourself, lady.

Mr Names - We thought alike. I had selected just that passage, but decided to refresh before posting.

I would quite like to see the poll numbers on that assertion.

Hey guys, I am guessing "unsigned" is single! Leave your email and you could maybe go out with her. She sounds a real keeper.

But if they read the letter and admit that maybe the wife is/was being abusive what will they have to feel victimized about?

Ah - I knew SNAP reminded me of something, but all the tennis kept me from recalling the David Rees story "Watsonville". A sixth-form boys' school French teacher confiscates a little black book from the school tart, who has provided release during the lunch period, and foolishly has kept a record of his clientele with details about length, C/U, a capsule summary of the member and the experience, and the (variable) amount charged, if any. Although apparently unable to work out the meaning, the teacher soon realizes that the only time his class is silent is when he takes out the book and reads a few entries. Alan, one half of the school couple, who found his way into the book the week Stephen was out with flu, goes to great lengths to steal the book before his presence is revealed. He deals with finding Stephen in the book, then puts it away and keeps it for thirty years before re-reading it and showing it to Stephen. Doing so brings about a greater threat to their partnership than any they'd faced in its thirty years' duration.

"Feminist women don't want partners who use porn of any kind."

.. oh my dog, speak for yourself. I'm super feminist, and I view porn myself and am okay with my husband doing the same. I don't own or control his sexuality, and vice versa.

@8: I'm guessing Unsigned is still in university. Being judgmental in criticizing someone else for supposedly being judgmental strikes me as a uniquely collegiate trait. Some real world experience with actual relationships will hopefully take those edges off.

I'm reminded of a gal I briefly dated in undergrad, whom I met in a feminist studies class. She was so angry, all the time, about pretty much everything. And yeah there are lots of things to be angry about when you're young and emotional, and she in particular had good cause for some of them. Still... who wants to be around someone who's pissed all the time, and blows up at a moment's notice?

Unsigned, redux: But, but, but.. he LIED to her, damn him. That means he DESERVES to be called a pedophile for doing something that she happens to severely dislike, even though it has nothing whatsoever to do with pedophilia. No, that isn't controllling, irrational, abusive psychopathy at all.

What a moron.

Ah yes, letter 2 reminds me again why I can't be a feminist. Also reminds me of our old feminist friend who says "PIV Is Always Rape, Ok?":

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…

And really, "Please don't tell me that porn is consensual and women freely choose to be porn stars, that they could have been Fortune 500 CEOs, Nobel Laureates, in the learned professions of law, medicine, but they freely chose porn instead." Well, there are a lot of people who might prefer to be CEOs or whatever, but not all of us are going to reach those heights, and therefore we take the best jobs that are accessible to us. If that's porn or sex work, then why should that be worse than taking a really reprehensible job like becoming a politician?

@13 - I don't know--does any feminist under 60 actually still think like that?
I've talked to a lot of feminists of all stripes through undergrad & grad school and while they surely differed widely in their views of porn, given where actual feminist debates have gone since the 2nd wave, I've never seen anything crazy like this espoused by any feminist socialized after about 1990.

I am a feminist and have had awesome partners who watched porn.

I even use non-video porn myself.

Obviously Unsigned and I have to fight to the death with something non-phallic. Like shields.

So, while Unsigned has something of a point, what she can't do is leap from porn to pedophile. Or heap a load of presumption on Dan. Blanket declarations are annoying.

When I was in college decades ago, I heard that a hetero woman can't be a feminist. That basically it was mutually exclusive. Ugh.

Can porn be exploitive? Yes. Can it degrade women? Yes, but also men. Do some of us women who consider ourselves feminists like it anyway? Yes.

The guy lied because she was rigid and strident. Generally one lies when faced with a judgement.

Well, I think we've met SNAP's wife....
Yowza lady, I've felt Dan can be overly-judgy and/or overly-lax towards LWs at times but holy hell, SNAP's letter is soooo not the hill to die on.

"...but it is typical of men in this culture to characterize a woman with whom they disagree as "controlling, irrational, abusive psycho".
Well, let's see now...

"ever since then insists that we can't have children"
Nope, nothing controlling about that.

"because I'm a pedophile for watching porn that may or may not have contained women acting like teenagers."
Nope, nothing irrational about that.

"She literally yells at me in public if my gaze goes anywhere near girls or women she perceives to be younger than she is. The same goes for watching TV, looking at magazines, you name it."
Nope, nothing abusive about that.

"A lot of this stems from her best friend's cousin, who worked with people in the porn industry and seduced underage girls into sexual acts. To her, watching porn is the same as what this guy did"
Nope, nothing psycho about that.

Unsigned dismisses three quarters of the content of the letter, all that counts is the fact that he lied to her, and because porn. I agree, I think we have just met SNAP's wife.

Rather than "Unsigned," I think "Unhinged" might be more accurate.

There are all kinds of feminists. Some of us WRITE porn! Speak only for yourself, okay?

SNAP's wife is perfectly entitled to be of the view that she obviously finds porn so fundamentally objectionable, for whatever her reasons may be.

This is true. And it is also true that Mr. SNAP is allowed to feel as though he hasn't committed a crime by having looked at a little porn during the premarital year they were geographically apart.

These two have a major difference. Perhaps they should go to therapy about it. Or perhaps they should mutually decide that there are incompatibilities that are far too great to stay together. Period.

I wish my partner did not want to watch any porn but stuff that I liked, only with me and other attractive men of my choosing of which he'd never be jealous. And I'd like them to shower my partner and I with attention and affection at my whim, and I'd like my partner to read my mind and fulfill my every desire. And fetch me cocoa. And always agree with me and never make mistakes. This is starting to sound a little like hell to me.

@23, yoy had me at "fetch me cocoa." Well played.

I'd critique Dan for not chopping down the second letter for brevity, but I suppose I wouldn't actually expect anyone to read it a first time, let alone waste time editing it.

That second letter is whatever it's called when a feminist does herself some good ol' mansplaining. As if Dan didn't know all that already.

@21; looking into porn written by women, can you post here how to access yours..
Universalizing Feminism, now where have I seen that recently spoken about, it'll come to me.
LW1; great description of how you moved passed your comfort zone and how your man did it with love and care.
LW2; Porn, can, for some people be problematic.
However, If made with some skill and sensitivity and realism..esp in relation to the woman, It can be an aid to erotic pleasure. Problem is, so much of mainstream porn is not produced this way.
Though if you check , no wade thru, this last weeks letters column, you might find some links to porn that is less offensive .

she sounds cray-cray

LW1 : agreed.

LW2 : I'm a feminist and I find quite enjoyable and arousing the MM videos that some sex toys shops put online to demonstrate their use. I don't see that kind of porn as demeaning to women at all, nor to men, either. Besides, haven't you heard of ethical and feminist porn ? It exists.

As for job opportunities, if there wasn't such social stigma to doing porn movies, I'm quite sure I'd rather act in some ethical ones once a month, than keep my ungrateful-brats-filled, long-hours and low-paying current job.

What utter bullshit. If feminists all hate porn, then where did the term "sex positive feminist" come from? Some feminists not only enjoy poem themselves, they MAKE it: Annie Sprinkle, Susie Bright, Nancy Friday, Nina Hartley, Candida Royalle, and Tristan Taormino, to name a few. Who died and made "U" the arbiter of what feminism is and isn't? While "U" has a point about honesty and compatibility, the way the letter writer's wife/gf (I forget which) reacted was over the top unreasonable. I do hope he took Dan's advice, as I have little doubt he'll be able to find a woman who's both a FEMINIST and into porn.

Thanks @30 for names of makers of porn , who are women..

This person gives feminist a bad name.

I love how the lw gets so angry that this guy lied and apparently that is a relationship ending offense. In reality the only reason he lied was because this woman is nuts about something thats not that big a deal. Its not like he currently looks at porn or leaves it up to upset her. He did it so that he could curb his sexual appetite when they were apart which probably prevented him from possibly cheating. And yes he did lie but no relationship is perfect and most people can move on and not call their partner a pedophile. If I had to pay for all my past relationship mistakes everyday me and hubby would be divorced in no time.

I'm toward the end of extracting myself from a marriage to someone like Mrs SNAP and U after 25 years and a tribe of "accidental" children. I wrote back to SNAP on the column. It was a bit buried down in the comments and I think SNAP should see it. http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag…

SNAPs wife is a psycho. He needs to leave. It doesn't matter if the risk of her behaviour continuing is only 2 percent, the severity of the problem if it becomes long term is so great that it cannot be risked.

For me the abuse was the same, the back story slightly different. I got screamed at in the street if a pretty girl walked past from very early on. I got threatened with false allegations of abusing my children if I asked her to contribute to the simple responsibilities of running of the house. I was accused of non existent affairs. I was accused of cuddling my daughters inappropriately when I was the only person comforting them.

I did lie to her. "Yes I'd love you to be a stay at home parent dear, thankyou." Sure I lied. Of course I did anything I could to avoid her threats. No I don't find that girl attractive. No I don't want to keep up with those female friends of mine. What, no, of course I don't want to keep up with those male friends either dear. No, I'd never see a movie with so and so in it. No, I don't like songs by that attractive female artist... etc etc etc. This sort of abuse forces the victim to lie to allow the abused to survive.

These people cut down the self esteem of their victims. SNAP has not made a sexual advance to anyone else in the time he has been with her but he's only pretty sure that he's not a sexual predator. Marriage counseling is likely to make things much worse as he participates in carefully choosing a counselor who provides her with the perfect audience participation to her abuse.

Actually U, I can't see any evidence in SNAPs letter that she declared before she married him that she would accuse him of pedophilia if he ever admitted having seen any pornography. That was the revelation he needed to understand what a psycho she is. She lied to him.

The only thing SNAP is guilty of is being uncertain and insecure enough to look for ways in which it could be his fault. That's pretty normal and kind of a nice way of being around most issues. It's dangerous when taken advantage of by someone who threatens to accuse you of a crime that you may be treated as guilty until proven innocent of and that will potentially make you loose your children and livelihood.

As a sex-positive feminist, I resent the hell out of other feminists telling me I can't like porn. Newsflash: I do.

SNAP and unsigned: same CIAP, different ends of the socio-political spectrum.

I hope others have already said jumped in on this, but I just want to say, I'm a feminist and have no objection to my husband watching porn, so the LW does not speak for all of us. #notallfeminists

@15 - judgmental assholes don't get to define what feminism is. If you believe that women are human beings of equal worth to men, you're a feminist by my definition, and my definition is as valid as that of some raving looney.

Another feminist here - that's not what "feminists" think of porn at all! That's what feminists of your ideological train think. I jumped on a different one a long time ago and we are miles apart.

Aheh...well, U, yes, she (and you) is free to find another straight man who will pretend to never, ever look at porn and who might be a better liar. Good Luck! Odds are that's a recipe for repeated heartbreak.

LavaGirl: You should check out Doris Wishman. Fun, campy, sexploitation films from 1960's on.

@15: "Ah yes, letter 2 reminds me again why I can't be a feminist."

Because you're an asshole? I don't see what the letter has to do with not supporting gender equality, so you're grasping for straws.

Like 38 mentions, combating perceived nuttiness with actual nuttiness only lowers you as a person.

umpteenth (female) voice for "I'm a feminist and I watch porn." My husband and I have watched together for years and I fairly regularly watch solo when I masturbate. My main concern with him is that my tastes are so much less vanilla that we sometimes have trouble finding something that we will both enjoy!

Thanks @41; I'll check out those films.

There are no feminists more degrading to women as the anti-sex worker feminists. They act as if sex workers should be treated as petulant children in need of redirection or correction. This infantilism of women puts them in bed with their worst enemies--consider evangelical leaders, for example--and spoils the reputation of feminism for everyone.

In addition to jumping on the bandwagon of I'm-a-feminist-and-LW2-shouldn't-presume-to-speak-for-us-all, I'm going to call her out on the degree to which she completely denies the agency of women who choose to work in porn. Her attitude about that is decidedly un-feminist.

It seems to me that Unsigned is guilty of womansplaining, which does put her in bed with her enemies. Different gender, same condescending attitude and obvious lack of real-life experience that might make her realize how ridiculous she is (especially for doing everything she accuses Dan of).

Hey U, I'm a feminist, also a straight woman. I have no beef with porn, even though I don't watch it myself. I also wear heels and don't have to have corrective foot surgeries. Furthermore, I wax my pubic hair and it doesn't hurt past twinge level.

Don't put your labels on me. Don't force your one definition of feminism on me.

"Feminist women don't want partners who use porn of any kind. Period. That's our choice."

Well, no, actually; that's your choice. Which you're free to have. Please don't tell me what mine is.

Thank you.

"Please don't tell me that porn is consensual and women freely choose to be porn stars, that they could have been Fortune 500 CEOs, Nobel Laureates, in the learned professions of law, medicine, but they freely chose porn instead. "

Oh, so THAT was my choice? Nobel Laureate or porn actress? How come the high school career counselor never told me that? (What if I wanted to be an auto mechanic? That still an option? What about a stay-at-home mom? )

Get this, U:
I'm hoping to live to see the day when a woman gets to be both a porn actress and a Nobel Laureate--that being one doesn't preclude her someday or even simultaneously being the other. I would see that as Feminism's Finest Hour. And the beauty of it would be that she wouldn't need to be either of those things if she didn't want to, too.

Seems to me you're the one doing some pretty restrictive thinking where women's options are concerned.

Just like there are shitty brands of "feminism" that oppose sex work or that believe the trans identity is an expression of the power of patriarchy rather than a reality for a human person, there are shitty brands of "feminism" that are irrational and insane about the reality of pornography. Take a lesson from the conservative right about abortion: you can object to it all you want, for any reason you want, but it isn't going to change the fact that some people are going to need it.

I am so goddamn sick of people acting like choosing to be a porn star is just the craziest idea and couldn't ever possibly be true. My wife is a porn star who traded in a full ride academic scholarship at one of the top science schools in the country to transfer to a prestigous film school bc she realized she didn't want to spend her life in a lab. After graduating and getting some experience in film, she chose --yes, actively chose-- to get into porn. She's an incredibly sexual person as well as a passionate filmmaker and storyteller so it really was her calling, and she wouldn't trade it for anything. Now she's got several directing credits under her belt while many of her peers are still PAing for minimum wage or moved back home to live with their parents and/or take menial office jobs.

I'm not saying every naive 18 year old that thinks they're gonna get rich is the same as my wife, but i am friends with many, many women in the porn industry and they are all very smart, capable, savvy business women who could easily have other careers if they wanted to, and many like my wife gave up other "more respectable" careers to persue porn because they love it. Great pay, low hours, hot sex... If you're sexually confident and can get beyond the shame from assholes like LW2, it can be a dream job!

Oh yeah, and we have two Feminist Porn Awards on our bookshelf. :p

Please don't tell me that porn is consensual and women freely choose to be porn stars, that they could have been Fortune 500 CEOs, Nobel Laureates, in the learned professions of law, medicine, but they freely chose porn instead.

This, more than anything, screams "I have never worked a real job in my life."

Actual jobs are not self-actualizing journeys into tapping your true potential. They're a series of tasks you do because someone pays you to do them, and because you need to money for rent/mortgage/groceries/gas/etc. Pretty much every job involves doing things you'd rather not do-- that's why they have to pay you! And it's totally understandable that someone would rather have sex with near-strangers in front of a camera than, say, prepare bodies for a funeral, collect trash from people's houses, harvest grapes from the vine, or field orders from obnoxious diners.

"Feminist women don't want partners who use porn of any kind. Period. That's our choice."

It's also our choice to regard you as a narrow-minded, sex-phobic bigot, and also NOT a feminist because you refuse to allow women free choice in the matter.

It's a common argument among anti-pornography advocates to claim that women who do porn are always the victims. This argument ignores ACTUAL interviews with women who perform in porn, the vast majority of whom chose the profession without coercion. Oh, sure, economics played a role -- but is unsigned out there demanding that McDonald's fire all of its minimum wage workers because that's not a job they would willingly do if not for economic necessity? Why is pornography the only industry held to this unrealistic economic standard?

Unsigned also ignores the fact that SNAP's wife essentially called him a pedophile for watching fully adult women in porn. That's some fucking messed up shit right there.

Frankly, I think both SNAP and Unsigned could benefit from a little therapy.

"Feminist women don't want partners who use porn of any kind. Period. That's our choice."

The only men you're gonna find will be dishonest and liars. Have fun!

I guess I'm not surprised that, on the comment thread for a sex-advice column, there's so many feminists who are ok or into (or write) (or act in) porn. Probably not a good idea to draw any conclusions from this kind of, er, circle jerk?

Anyway, I think U identifies ways porn can be destructive for a lot of women (and men); alas, it's wrapped in too much crazy to try to salvage. Most of the feminist women I've known (and I know a lot of them, having spent a long time in academia), even the more sex-positive 3rd wavers, can make a reasonable critique of pornography and its role in sustaining patriarchy.

But even though I have heard enough of those critiques to treat each side of this debate seriously, like most of you, I have a problem with the ways such arguments become so deterministic as they devolve into sloganeering: no, there's not an increase in domestic violence during the Super Bowl (as many people continue to state) and no, viewing porn does not wire all men to see women only in terms of their sexual availability.

@ 55 - As some people have suggested, it might very well be the same person.

@56: Doubtful. The arguments are vastly different, and the lw expressly challenges SNAP's wife's charge of pedophilia. Plus, anyone who thinks that her husband's watching porn when she was away is equivalent to cheating on her is unlikely to be a reader of Savage Love or a contributor to Slog. All that's the same is the porn-hatred.
SNAP's wife makes no pretense of being a feminist.

@ 59 - It's a joke.

Oh, guess what, I'm a feminist woman who watches porn and whose husband watches porn! There have been like a thousand on this thread already.

Unsigned is a jerk.

@57

I'm curious how you would rank Cosmo vs. Playboy; the Real Housewives franchise vs. hardcore pornos; romance novels vs. Penthouse Forum -- as far as their role in sustaining the patriarchy / kyriarchy?

@38 & 42: Calling me an asshole is hardly the way to win me over to your side. I'll be a "personist" but not a feminist. And freedom can't be given, it can only be taken. Get off your ass and be equal already. That's what I do--I don't wait for your permission to have a job in technology and believe that women can make progress without demonizing men to do so.

@63 At least hardcore porn is honest about what it does.

uhm @57

no, there's not an increase in domestic violence during the Super Bowl (as many people continue to state)

are you sure about that? There is very good evidence about a link between college football (upset losses, specifically) and domestic violence:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles…
and
http://jse.sagepub.com/content/10/1/68.s… (gated, but abstract provides summary).

Specifically for the Super Bowl, data is a bit thin to say something definite, but you can take a look at some of the data in the figures by Dahl and Card http://eml.berkeley.edu/~webfac/lee/e251… which is quite suggestive.

So I'd agree with you that it's not scientifically established that domestic violence peaks at the Super Bowl, but there is, in fact solid scientific backing for a positive and likely causal relationship between professional and college football and domestic violence and some data that suggests it's stronger around the Super Bowl.

You'll find some studies referencing this as a false claim, but those mainly predate (or are not aware of) the more recent empirical work on this.

I don't wait for your permission to have a job in technology and believe that women can make progress without demonizing men to do so.

oh FFS: if you don't know anything about feminism just say "I don't know if I'm a feminist."
Feminism has, in fact, developed since the SCUM manifesto, you know? Most feminists don't demonize men, they even date us. Heck, rumor has it there are even men who are feminists.

@69 (Ricardo): oops-

Umm..well all her points shoudn't be dismissed. Traditionally the porn industry is hurtful.I know there is better stuff on line now. But by no means is it free of coercion and manipulation

I'm a staunch feminist and not only do I watch porn, I've been in porn! I wasn't forced or coerced and at the time I didn't need the money. I was trolling through the now defunct "Adult " section of Craigslist and ran across someone looking for BBW ladies to shoot anal vids with. The guy was super nice, didn't pressure me at all and even let me know if I changed my mind halfway through or just couldn't loosen up enough to do anal he'd still pay me $100 just for trying. He was very patient and kind and I'm still friends with him today. It was something I decided to do for myself...it really helped me accept the second "B" in BBW. Didn't hurt that the pre-show sex wad some of the best I've ever had! Being a feminist is about making your own decisions. If I'm not going to let men or society as a whole tell me what I can and cannot do, why the fuck would I let this old hag define me?

@21 & @53 ftw.

Yeah, less flippantly: I have plenty of issues with plenty of mainstream porn. And the porn I use myself is made by women. Yeah, the personal testimonies on this blog are going to be slanted toward awesome ethical porn. But since we're arguing with an absolute, it's hard not to focus on all the counterexamples.

I think the original thread testifies plenty of SLOG commenters do have some issues with porn, but the completely unnuanced position Unsigned is taking is wiping out our nuance by reaction!

"I don't wait for your permission to have a job in technology..." Anyone else imagining @64 barging into Google, spittle covered chin leading the way, screaming, "I DEMAND A TECHNO JERB!!!" Just me?

I love feminists who think women should be empowered and able to decide for themselves what to do. Unless they decide on porn or sex work. Then we need paternalistic laws and societal norms to prevent or discourage those choices. Because clearly those women don't have the capacity to make their own decisions--as evidenced by their making a decision that some people don't agree with. I mean there are absolutely people who are coerced into doing those things, but you can address the coercion without taking away people's ability to choose it freely. Some people are coerced or otherwise forced to work in sweat shops or in agriculture--but you don't hear people suggesting that it should be illegal to work in textile manufacturing facilies or that anyone who eats lettuce is immoral.

The objection to porn and sex work has nothing to do with protecting women (by limiting their choices..), it has to do with discomfort with women owning their own sexuality--to do with as they please. Some feminists share that discomfort, and some have just been convinced that the only or best way to protect women from trafficing and coercion is to ban those things. Of course, the fact that they are to some degree underground or black market is exatly what makes it easy for the criminal element to blend in. If everything were on the up and up with permits and licenses and safety regulations, it would make it much easier to focus on the people who were doing real harm (because they would largely be the people breaking those rules).

@ 64 - I think feminist actually means what you think "personist" means, i.e., that all people should be equal and have equal rights and opportunities.

@47: oooh! Yeah, that's on par with what I was thinking, but had forgotten the words to use.

See, if you think that no woman would ever choose to do porn of their own volition, that they're all victims (if not directly, through the directors of the movies they're making, then indirectly by "the system" making them want to do porn), you are guilty of taking agency from those women!

Feminism means that women are equal to men, and that they have every right to go out in the world and do whatever it is they want to do, with the only restriction being the law of the land (which, of course, should not favour one gender over the other). If a woman wants to go into politics or prostitution, she should have that choice!

And just as importantly, Unsigned is building a straw man view of porn in the first place. Every porn actress is breast-englarged, waxed and spiked-heeled into some crazy standard? Has she *heard* of rule 34? The vast variety of women-run camwhore sites? Has she not noticed the explosion of amateur porn since the invention of the camcorder in like, 1993?

Where the bloody hell did *this* fossil even come from?

@63, many thanks for the term "kyriarchy" - I'd never come across it before.

@66: http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/s…

Unsigned maybe should have took more time to explain her feminist views, but it's not typically possible to get the most vocal of the squawker "activists" to truly understand the problem let alone take action required to actually do something that makes a difference

Yes, their are women in the porn industry because they like their jobs and would continue in that line of work even with other employment options, even ones that paid more

However,

even if that was the majority of women in porn's situation (which is isn't) and even if the line of work that most produces most women actresses in porn, such as stripping, wasn't the emotional assault on women that it is due to the constant fucked up verbal shit they have to endure from customers, it's the message that today's porn sends to viewers that can be and is a very destructive force of healthy relationships

It's entirely possible that the feminist has nothing against sexually explicit media, it's just the type of porn that is today's standard is what she despises because of the countless women's lives that are destroyed without any concern for reasons simply of entertainment and personal wealth of the producers whose life is not harmed

And as per usual, cattle from Seattle and beyond are far more concerned with being right and appearing as intellectually superior to a compared other, than they are with doing the work that would actually be effective at getting the equality, fairness, freedom liberty and justice for all

that they claim to be all about

thank goodness you are all right while being wrong, who gives a shit if it's really just that you are oblivious ?

comment 34 is a perfect example of why it's important to know the person well enough to give good advice, or else be really good at giving it

as something tells me that your wife's behavior of

" I got screamed at in the street if a pretty girl walked past from very early on."

may be a slightly exaggerated or possibly one sided biased description of the events in your relationship from the get go

and if not

if your wife truly was at least as abusive and you being completely innocent, from early on and throughout the relationship, perhaps it's time to take some responsibility for staying in that relationship

Excusing your lying to your wife, was part of the problem

"and no, viewing porn does not wire all men to see women only in terms of their sexual availability."

@57

No it doesn't, however the standard video porn of today is very much the precursor for wiring many men, to seeing sexuality and women in a destructive way, it takes assholes like the typical slogger to ignore the horrible and unnecessary facets of porn -- or worse to outright disclaim they exist -- in order to appear right in publicly viewed conversations such as the comments of a tabloid like slog, when combined together it's a lot closer to the truth that porn is responsible for the fucked up, disrespectful, and in no way equal view that society has of women

which you claim viewing porn is not responsible for

and this isn't directed at you 57,

but for all the others who let the desire to appear superior, bias their judgement in discussions of womens' issues, and fail to honestly revisit their opinion and think about the real issues and what helps solve said issues and what contributes to the problems

is not feminist

slogger sure, but in no way a feminist, in no way an intellectual

and for the uninformed, "porn" to a journalist is watching what those fuckers at adobe allowed -- basically any body -- to do unsuspecting targets when in front of their personal computer or within earshot of it's onboard microphone

which when done more than once on accident, can definitely enter pedophile terrortoy

@77 my pleasure!

Unsigned, you need to work on not leaping to conclusions. You really want to read things into stuff. I wrote the "astute comment" and I explicitly said he should not have lied to her. He was an idiot to marry somebody who he knew he was incompatible with, as I already said. Telling her to break up with him is not the flip side of my comment, it's just not very sensible since he wrote in and she did not, so addressing her isn't as helpful. Sure, she should break up with him. When two people aren't compatible, whichever of them figures that out first should break up with the other. Yes, she's entitled to her views. Yes, others are entitled to disagree with them. Yes, he lied to her and that is wrong. Yes, she shouldn't yell at him anyway.

Since she does not trust him, and she cannot treat him well at this point, they should break up. The fact that they got there through him lying to her doesn't really matter. When deciding what to do in a relationship, if you're looking for where to place the blame you have already messed up. The question is: can this relationship be a good thing for both of them? The answer appears to be no. There is no need to dissect the issue of pornography. And there's no need to go on a big rant about it, since you are making your desired audience tune out. I guess I'm just annoyed you dragged me into it and didn't seem to understand what I had said.

As a feminist, I don't have a problem with my boyfriend looking at porn. In fact when I met my current bloke I was charmed by him telling me that he looks at MILF porn "because it's women my own age". I thought that was really sweet.

@85 Oooooooh! Uncreative registered!!!

@85 I said I would if I ever had to make an important enough comment. It was the thread on suicidal thoughts from someone suffering from PTSD, depression, and possibly anxiety that mad me decide to register.

@78 you didn't actually read my comment, which had links to several recent, peer-reviewed articles in highly ranked journals. I know this will blow your mind, but Snopes--while useful--is not the end of all wisdom. Specifically, their main source is the book by a well-known conservative activist who isn't exactly well known for her statistical work (to put it mildly. One of Hoff-Summers many great achievements in journalism is to invent a non-existing blow-job epidemic among young teenagers).

I just want to throw out there that I am a feminist who hates watching porn, but I also don't mind if anyone else likes it. You don't have to like porn to understand that it's not evil.

You know, there's plenty of ways you can critique porn in general what with its limited roles, formulaic scripts, and gender essentialism. But those same criticisms are applicable to mainstream movies/tv/etc. I'm not saying that to mean those critiques shouldn't be made of porn; I just get profoundly irritated to see them made about porn as if it is any worse than mainstream entertainment in that regard. Often mainstream entertainment is FAR worse.

I am sure the author who didn't sign would have a lot to say about all forms of media, as anybody whom is not in denial and had a basic understanding of psychology could easily glean how fucked up and ignorant the mainstream view/what is the socially accepted opinion of the damage done by Our enforced patriarchal world

Just because some people are more open and accepting in regards to sexuality doesn't mean they are enlightened or in any way intellectually capable of understanding the truth of the problems humane beings and their culture need to overcome

as it is all too clear how many ignorant, sexually open people whom mistake themselves for intellectuals have chimed in here

It's not only the bitterness towards organized religion that make cattle blind, it's the need to be appear right by making someone else appear wrong (even when the opposite is the truth) that makes the cattle from warshington some of the most clueless people in the world

Few demographics do the human race more wrong than those who have a false sense of being in the right, as that demographic, or males just in general are what threaten a much too early event of humane beings extinction

that or either journalists too stupid to realize that the programming they do, will always be harmful to Our Species when the priorities are financial, instead of publishing truth so that those who are confused, can understand

there is essentially no "news" media, but rather a bunch of clueless ignorants, who work in an all too destructive entertainment industry, as any one who works media that doesn't fit that category is typically all about prolonging the fucked power and control by the dumb and undeserving gender

Just adding my "hallelujah" and "amen" to all the self-avowed feminists who have absolutely no problem with their partners using porn, let alone using it themselves, or - heaven forfend - participating in it themselves. Unsigned is entitled to her opinion, but she is not entitled to everyone else's, so she really should stop speaking for us.

"Please don't tell me that porn is consensual and women freely choose to be porn stars, that they could have been Fortune 500 CEOs, Nobel Laureates, in the learned professions of law, medicine, but they freely chose porn instead. "

Cicciolina was elected to the Italian Parliament (while still appearing in hard-core pornographic films) espousing some serious causes, including opposition to nuclear energy and NATO and the support of human rights :).