Comments

1
Pathetic.
2
John Shore link is garbled; should be http://www.patheos.com/blogs/johnshore/2…
…Just two lonely truckers from Great Falls, Montana

And a salesman from places unknown (-ces unknown)

All huddled together in downtown Toledo

To spend their big night all alone!…
—John Denver, "Saturday Night in Toledo, Ohio"

Should anybody still feel a need to cleave to the Mother[fucking] [Fucked-Up] Church, I've prattled here on multiple times before about the "primacy of conscience" doctrine and I'm not gonna post the links again, but you (or any ignorant fucking priests) can enter the quoted words in the li'l ol' Slog/Stranger search box and find them right quick.
3
*prattled on here
4

Plotting Nicea III Could Be Pope Francis's Masterstroke

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/20…

The Liturgy, like the Constitution, must change.
5
It doesn't matter what the Pope says, if he doesn't follow that up with action. If all the church leaders below him continue to disenfranchise their LGBT flock (and their families) his words mean less than nothing. Leading by example isn't good enough. This is getting ridiculous.
6
Have these two been tithing to the church that is doing violence to LGBT people all over the world?
7
Why would anyone wanna be Catholic anyway--it's too freakin' complicated. I couldn't even make it through the Wiki page. TL;DR.
9
Who gives a shit? Fuck the Catholic Church. Leave it.
11
I dunno. Seems to me that if you don't agree with the doctrine of a religion, you leave the religion.

Back when I was sixteen or seventeen, I realized that I was not interested in living or pursuing the life that the Catholic Church expected of me. Not only was I sinning, by their definition, but I had no intention of stopping, and wasn't sorry. So I stopped taking Communion - something that took a certain amount of backbone while living with my very Catholic parents. I've been to mass since, but have never since taken Communion as I think doing so would be immoral - since I no longer follow their rules, I have no right to participate in their to-them sacred rituals.

If these two men have no interest in living the way their church expects them to - sexless, lonely, loveless - then they are better off doing without religion, or finding a religion that accepts them as they are.

My response to that priest would not be to beg to be reinstated, but to spit in his eye.
12
Whatever. If these two men are members of the catholic church than I don't give a rats ass. And pushing the catholic church toward more progressive views is a fairly lame goal. I'd much prefer they remain as bigoted as they have been so that maybe one day they will finally be so irrelevant that they, as an organization, are pushed to the fringes where they belong.
13
Religion is dumb. The world would be a better place without it.
14
Ooh, SubHumanBlues is feelin' all FEISTY today!

Get a load of her sashaying her bad self down the comments section! You GO, girl!!
15
I feel sorry for this couple, but really, what are they doing in the Catholic church, anyway?
16
@15: I left the church, and I'm frankly mystified by those who don't. But I have gay catholic friends and the ability to empathize with an older gay couple who are being shit all over.

Also, the catholic church condemns masturbation in the exact same terms that the church condemns gay sex—intrinsically disordered, evil, etc. Until the church goes after straight masturbators with the same fervor that it goes after gay people, the church is guilty of enforcing her precious doctrines and beliefs in a highly selective—and highly revealing—fashion.

And they deserve to be called out on it.

P.S. If Seattleblues didn't exist we would have to invent him.
17
The irony, of course , is parishioners know lots of gay priests and brothers, and gay and lesbian parishoners. The Catholic Church has a social justice doctrine it won't apply to its own members!
18
@8: Ragegasm! Did you type all that with one hand?

@16: The contradiction between the church's teachings on masturbation and my own personal experiences of it was the first step in my long road to apostasy.

19
Most of the time I just tune out religion. I ignore it as much as possible. My life is less stressful if we just leave each other alone.

But shit like this really boils my blood. How can anybody who claims to be a priest be so utterly cruel? What an asshole. If I lived anywhere near that church, I'd be out front with angry protest signs every Sunday. That would hopefully keep me occupied enough to prevent me from a more destructive response. What. A. Dick.
20
Jesus never talked about homosexuality. But he was very specific about divorce. You just don't. No excuses, no exceptions.
21
I find this odd. It was a CIVIL ceremony. If the priest is insisting that they get divorced, then that means the Church is recognizing civil ceremonies between same-sex couples as legitimate marriages in the eyes of God.

So maybe this constitutes progress?

The Christian Thing To Do would be: to just ignore their civil marriage, and welcome them into the parish.
22
@Dan, seeing as how you ARE someone who has "gay catholic friends and the ability to empathize with an older gay couple who are being shit all over," I'm curious why you have never to my knowledge brought up or discussed the primacy of conscience. It is not a "free pass"; for those in the life, it is a sober call to earnest reflection. But it IS a retort to clerics right on up to the pope himself who presume to judge and condemn and deny sacraments to those for whom they have meaning.

And Max Solomon brings up a good point; it may well apply to the Eastside school official who was summarily dismissed.
23
@8: Blues is back! Funny stuff, SB, as always.
24
@11 - Taken completely out of specific context, I feel like we might actually agree on something.
25
I dunno. Seems to me that if you don't agree with the doctrine of a religion, you leave the religion.

Back when I was sixteen or seventeen, I realized that I was not interested in living or pursuing the life that the Catholic Church expected of me. Not only was I sinning, by their definition, but I had no intention of stopping, and wasn't sorry. So I stopped taking Communion - something that took a certain amount of backbone while living with my very Catholic parents. I've been to mass since, but have never since taken Communion as I think doing so would be immoral - since I no longer follow their rules, I have no right to participate in their to-them sacred rituals.

If these two men have no interest in living the way their church expects them to - sexless, lonely, loveless - then they are better off doing without religion, or finding a religion that accepts them as they are.

My response to that priest would not be to beg to be reinstated, but to spit in his eye.


I think exit is a fine personal choice, but I also think there are good reasons to reject the view that exit from such flawed institutions is the only legitimate choice, for a number of reasons.

1. As a practical matter, it makes it much less likely the Church will get less evil if all the decent people exit. Leave them to seattleblues-types and the children raised in the Church will be even more fucked up than they currently are.

2. There's simply no good principled reason to let the assholes win. The Catholic church, like most hierarchical organizations, is more complicated than that. Taking a sociological view of the Church rather than a deferential-to-awful-elites strictly theological approach shows a different picture. There are gay affirming parishes and congregations all over the world.

3. People obviously get valuable goods from participation in religious communities; this is an empirically robust finding. As a species we value community and tradition, and in particular we value the ones we know. There's something remarkably harsh about telling people they ought not to care, just move on. I think we should honor and respect the people who stay, and try even by their presence to change the bigoted culture (and, hopefully eventually theology) in the same way we should honor LGBTQ people who live in red states and work to make things better there, rather than just flee to Seattle or San Francisco.
26
This priest needs to meet the one who attended my sister's ordination (she's a Christian Church (DOC) pastor). That priest said, "girl, EVERYbody needs a gay priest to do her hair." He was...interesting...I'm told.
27
I love hearing stories about churches driving people away! The better for the world :)
28
If your religion tells you to be horrible to people, your religion might be horrible.
29
@11:

Like @24, I feel for once we are in absolute agreement. Based on this logic and your own obtuse nature, noting that none of the avenues of debate you enumerate have ever worked with you, I hereby declare you to be pure, unrepentant evil.

Henceforth, whenever you make an utterance on this blog, I shall be compelled to point my metaphorical finger at you, and declare in a loud, clear, steady voice:

THERE! EVIL! PURE AND SIMPLE!
30
Jesus , would not be pleased. Wtf is wrong with these people? Do all the loonies, religious loonies, just pack up and move to the US?
31
"compromise with evil doesn't work. Trying to find discussion with evil doesn't work. Reasoning with evil doesn't work." true words about Subhumanblues.

@10 If you still occasionally go to Catholic Mass on occasion out of respect for your family and others, good for you. Next time get in the Communion line kneel inform the Priest that you are not Catholic, respect faith and family and ask for his blessing instead.

When I was a lad my father on occasion would take us to service at churches and temples outside our faith. He thought it was important that we be exposed to the various expressions of faith. "Our Father's house has many rooms let us explore the mystery of faith."

Out of respect we were taught not to participate in communion in churches where communion is open only to those within that particular communion but instead to ask for their blessing. I've had a few Priest momentarily surprised when I say, "father I'm not Catholic and ask only for your blessing" but never a bad response, far from it, often it has led to some very good conversations during coffee hour. I've also been blessed by pretty much every religion and denomination the US and Europe. Haven't gotten around to Zoroastrianism yet.

My point is one needn't be of the faith to respect faith. Faith brings succor to many and that in and of itself has value. The mystery of faith is fascinating to explore even if you yourself don't believe. Expressions of Faith surrounding the breaking and sharing of bread are I think universal.

On a lighter note, "Catholics consume Christ, Protestants have a picnic with him." Sorry old PK joke.
32
Where are the studies that raising your children catholic causes harm and perm. damage? Why aren't we studying that shit to combat these abusive fucks?
33
You want to know what a miracle is? Here's a miracle: How do we keep from grabbing these priests, throttling them to within an inch of their lives, and expropriating all their property? That would be the late 18th century in France.
34
@8: You are not God. You don't decide what is or isn't Christian. YOU are a blasphemer and a heretic, to my best understanding, by your insistence on claiming to speak for the Almighty, by your insistence that you alone know what is right and what is wrong objectively.
wow nice argument fagtron you sure convinced me with those hot opinions
35
Religion is so fucking outdated.

And this Seattleblues person seriously cannot be real.
36
Man, seattleblues is the goddamn best. He should have his own show, like on public access early in the mornings or something. He could take calls into the studio, then rant about the pending societal collapse along with all the other goofball evangelical kooks, or debate and engage the reasonable ones, referring to them as "its" and "things." I bet he'd get ratings through the roof.
37
P.S. If Seattleblues didn't exist we would have to invent him.

Did Dan just tell us that Seattleblues is a Slog invention?
38
People must have suggested in the past that Seattleblues is an artistic invention of someone's? I mean, the voice is so cartoonishly simple-minded, it can't possibly be a real person, can it?
39
Hope the person calling SB a girl, is not using this term" a girl" in a derogatory fashion ? I don't get that SB is a woman..
Here.. I'll contribute to how the Catholic Church fucks you up. I'll join any study. I'm lucky no priests touched my body, they sure as hell though, fucked with my mind. And the nuns- well, idolising the priests. Repressing our sexuality. Mad fucking shit.
A couple of those women, though- just a couple- taught me the beauty of Learning.
Finally parted ways, when I did get to sex. Just did not feel at all comfortable, telling some man, of my " sins of the flesh", in confession.. Finally, the whole story just fell away. The scars, however, have taken a lifetime to erase.
40
Emeritus Pope Palpatine is cackling from the shadows. "Only now do you realize the true power of the Dark Side!"

Back when Japanese emperors had real power (and got assassinated like clockwork) a classic play was for them to "retire" to a monastery and continue to rule through a figurehead. Just sayin'.
43
I've suspected ol' SB was the victim of Catholic damage for a while now, but this confirms it.
44
@7: I agree with Original Andrew. Why bother? Why continue this "poor me victimhood" when adhering to the sacraments is so damn problematic? Life is too short. I don't feel sorry for this couple at all. Get over it!
Remember:
Cold hearted orb that rules the night,
removes the colours from our sight.
Red is grey, and yellow, white,
but we decide which is right,
and which is an illusion.

- The Moody Blues
45
@ 44 - You shouldn't give too much credence to the pretentious pseudo-philosophical spoken word bits on early Moody Blues albums. Remember: they're just singers in a rock and roll band.
46
@8 I think it's particularly hilarious that you have decided that the small time priest from Fuck-weasel, Montana (or wherever) is right and these men are heretics, but the (supposedly infallible!) Pope has lost faith and maybe should resign. You're flirting with heresy there yourself.

Also, it would be hilarious to have two dowager popes alive at the same time. They'd have to start an old popes home.
47
SB... Fuck off. And die. Now. Your soul is dead. Scape a shallow depression and crawl inside. Popes and preachers should do likewise.
49
@35,38 --- I've suggested it (for example http://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives… ) and others have too. I'm still pretty sure that he is a construct (as was Loveschild before him).
50
@25 One problem with this is that one of the lines hard core bigoted religious use against social progressives, specifically gays, is that we are at war with religion, that we want to destroy their brand of Christianity. That we want to force everyone to believe what we believe.

And the argument against that is that nobody is trying to change their beliefs, just to keep their beliefs from being law that applies to those not of their faith. That they are allowed to believe whatever they want, no matter how wrong we think it is, as long they keep it in their church and don't work for it to be public policy.

And then we have a situation like this, where people who are clearly not following the rules of their church are feeling wronged because the church is insisting that they do follow them in order to be full participants. In other words, in this case the fundamentalist religious nut jobs have a point. This in fact is the kind of direct attack on freedom of religion that they are always moaning about, usually speciously.

I personally can't understand why people with any self esteem would want to be a part of a group that rejects them and refuses to allow them such basics as love and sex, but if they do, it only seems reasonable that they behave in a way that the group mandates. If these men want to be part of an institution that considers them 'intrinsically disordered', well, let them. They can't then complain that they are being treated shoddily - it seems to me to come with the territory - "you knew I was a snake when you picked me up".
51
@ 25 - and why "good for me"? Why ask for a blessing I do not believe in and do not value? I don't in fact respect religious faith, I think it is at best a weakness and at worst a cancer on humanity. I love the members of my family who have faith, just as they love me with all MY weaknesses.

We would all be a lot better off if faith only got the respect it showed it deserved by its actions. I don't deny that some good is done in the world in the name of god, by good people, but I doubt if it balances out the harm done in god's name.
52
I'm not saying you should take communion, I don't care either way. I was mostly disagreeing with the absolutism in your first statement. I think that sometimes when you find yourself in a flawed institution the best option is to leave, and sometimes it's to stay and try to make it better. So I suppose I agree with this:

In other words, in this case the fundamentalist religious nut jobs have a point.

But I don't care. Decent, non-bigoted Catholics and other Christians are trying to change the church. (The conservatives are wrong to claim we're trying to use the coercive power of the state, or restrict their freedom properly understood.) I don't see any good principled, normative reason everyone in those churches should simply defer to their current elites. Institutions change all the time, and the changes we've seen in UCC, Community of Christ, Presbyterian, and even local Catholic parishes shows Christianity is not immune to getting over its worst prejudices. Obviously, we're a free society, so as long as they want to retain that bigotry they can. But many members don't, and I see no reason not to root for them, and no reason whatsoever they should feel an obligation to not challenge current bigoted elites. Churches like to convince themselves doctrine is static over time and unchangeable, but it's really not.

Obviously, it's more important to change the state. But future generations of LGBT people will be much better off when we're able to reform as many powerful, meaning-giving, identity-shaping institutions people find themselves borne into don't treat them horribly.
53
Remember Jack Chick comics? Seattleblues kind of reminds me of those.
54
@ 53 Followed that link - wow, just wow.

But you can see how living in that kind of fear can produce the twisted anger and bitterness of a SB. Burning for eternity in hell, just one small misstep away... what a way to live.
55
It's funny.

When two adult members of the congregation are consensually having gay sex, that's an unforgivable sin somehow.

But when members of the clergy have non-consensual gay sex with people who are underage, typically by a *lot*, that's a *forgivable* sin, and the church will actively cover up the crime and move the clergyman to say, another country. Where they, ah, reoffend, repeatedly and often, until they get caught again. At which point the cycle renews itself.

So which is it, oh oracle of morality? Is buttfucking someone a horrible, horrible sin when that person wants it? Or is it a horrible, horrible sin when that person *doesn't* want it, and more importantly, is vulnerable to your authority?

If you're going to claim one, you have to claim the other, far more unforgivable sin.
56
Oh, the miracle of redemption is that as long as you grovel and whine and feel shame and self loathing, anything is forgiven. Proudly living as you were born, however, that's the unforgivable part.
57
For once I totally agree with SB. People SHOULDN'T compromise with evil. Which is why no self respecting human should be part of the Catholic Church, one of the great engines of evil in the world.

And while I sympathize with this couple's emotional upheaval at being kicked out of an institution that has been systematically persecuting people like them since it's inception, and which currently fights against their own equality and rights…. kind of… I can't real be upset at the church doing something to drive even more people away from it. Overall I see it as a positive, and in the long run it's in this couple's own best self interests to not be part of an institution that hates them.
58
Oooh, LavaGirl sounds like the Catholic version of Mormon me! Same confessional bullshit, but our leaders were married (being unmarried is basically seen as perverted).
59
Catholicism is a shitstorm of centuries of appalling decisions, behavior, bigots, prejudice and cruelty. Ask any group of missionized victims of this asshole religion.

I say this as someone who was raised Catholic.
60
@Fortunate

I have reneged my baptism recently. Over their massive protests of gay marriage here in France, and over what nuns did to mothers and kids in need in Ireland. I can't agree more with you.

As for Pope Francis : he can't have his cake and eat it to. He's just a nice face, to front and cover for the abuse committed by his religion. The guy pleads for poverty but still lives in a golden palace, right ?

Real St Francis wasn't just a pretty face with appeasing words - and the religious hierarchy hated him for that for centuries after his death.
61
The smart priests don't make an issue of gay marriage or abortion and quietly wait for the hierarchy to catch up to the congregation. I notice that the priest in this situation was new to the town and probably didn't know the ropes. What it doesn't say is whether the priest was new to the country. A lot of priests are coming in from overseas these days, and they don't know the political tendencies of the American Catholic (liberal as all get-out).

And if Pope Francis got much more explicit about his support for homosexuals and women, he'd come down with a case of Vatican flu (he'd be dead).
62
The Catholic Church doesn't need to be reformed, it needs to be subjected to a full RICO investigation.
63
And as for Francis, he's demonstrating the same thing Obama did: it's easy to talk the talk, but it's the walk that matters.
64
Yeah, sure, if a religion doesn't work for you, leave it. Unless you're a little kid. Then you have no choice but to have religious bigotry and judgement spewed at you, hate that is supported by your parents and community. Not to mention the impact religion has on society in general. I'm not Christian but my health care sure is detrimentally effected by what Christians think I should be allowed to do with my body. It's important to help religions progress socially for all the people who *don't* have the option to get away from it, which is actually all of us to some extent.
65
What if they had a church and nobody came?

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