Having been dragged through this scenario myself in my early twenties, my advice is roughly the same as Dan's, except I would reverse the sequence. Rather than putting yourself through an extended boil-the-frog of trying to come to terms with your partner's non-monogamy before you finally reach your breaking point, I would say break up with her now and see whether you feel something more like relief.

If you do try to make non-monogamy work, I can guarantee there will be a constant underlying dynamic that, gee, if you could only just grow a little bit and stretch your heart a little bit, you would see that this is really the evolved way to live. Thus on top of having to cope, you are doing so from a mostly unstated but nonetheless pervasive presumption that yours is the position that is inherently wrong and stunted, that your partner is the superior one for wanting to fuck around on you. Do not allow yourself to be gaslighted. Wanting monogamy is an equally valid choice. If you feel like you can make it work and want to make it work, best of luck, but if you don't want it, not wanting it is valid. Be true to yourself.

Compromise: have a threesome. LW's girlfriend can sleep with someone else, and LW herself won't be left sitting at home while her girlfriend screws someone else.

Okay. I'll be the first to throw out the cliche about if you love someone let them go. You're 23, maybe she comes back, maybe she walks. But you're 23 fer heavens sake. Young, with plenty of good things ahead.

Could be you two are sexually compatible, but not romantically in tune. Dan's question for you will tell.

And long term monogamy is a real possibility, depending on the people involved. So if that's what you really want, it's out there waiting to meet you.

I would sit down and read something, maybe Opening Up by TristanTaormino, and think about it for a few weeks. Consider if there's anything appealing to you about an open relationship. Maybe you want some kink, or guilt-free time to go rock-climbing with your other friends. If you come up with a reason to try, thengive it a try. People can work through the emotional stuff if they are motivated. But if it all just makes you miserable, then walk away and look for someone more monogamous to date.

You are 23 years old. Very few people find their life long partners at that age, especially when expecting monogamy. I am a unicorn in that sense, in that both my wife and I want and expect monogamy and were nearly 24 when we got together. We are now married. BUT WE ARE NOT THE NORM. So find someone who wants what you do, lay it on the table when things start getting serious between you two. Monogamy is not what she wants, being monogamish is not what you want, and this will only end in heartache for you. So get out, find some hot young thing that makes you happy and shares your same ideas in relationships, and you will eventually find something that works. Most relationships fail anyway, sorry to say, and you need to be with someone on the same page as you, rather than someone who you need to compromise that much of yourself for. Good luck.

Background: I'm married to a poly man. He's got a girlfriend and I do not have any outside partners. We are forming a triad, but she and I are not sexually involved. We participate in three person sex with him at the same time, but the two of us don't independently have sex. I have no need or desire to have any other partners. He does.

Anyway, I love our arrangement. I love his girlfriend. We all live together and even share the same bed. I have no desire to have outside partners. So, it is possible to have that kind of a relationship, I just don't think it's for most people.

There is nothing wrong with wanting monogamy. If your GF is making you feel bad about that, you need to leave. If you truly only want monogamy, no amount of wishing is going to change that.

But, you are very young. When I was your age, I would have broken up with a man who even looked at another woman. I've changed a lot since then, obviously, but it's taken a couple of decades.

Quite often Dan says on the podcast to people in their early 20s that you usually don't wind up with someone you meet at that age, so break up if it's not working out.

I met my partner of 20+ years when I was early 20s. So far so good.

Just looked up online, Dan's husband was about 23 or 24 when they met. They're still together 20+ years.

Yes people are young in their early 20s and yes people change a lot after their very early 20s, but it is possible to grow with each other & stay happy even though you meet early in adulthood. Not likely according to the odds, but possible!

@9, me too, but I wasn't writing to advice columnists about how sad or frustrated I felt. If it's that hard after a few years, seems like it makes sense to look for someone more compatible.

It sounds as if you two aren't a match. She may be a great person, but the two of you have vastly different needs and wants that can't be reconciled within the relationship.

Thank you, #2, for proving my point.

John Richmond is a strange name for a non-native English speaker/writer.

I'll chime in and support @9.

While this LW seems to be in a relationship that sounds incompatible, I think that Dan (and others) is sometimes too quick to dismiss relationships between young people. Sure, they often don't last for the long term, but sometimes they do.

My parents, for example, met in high school. They were literally a stereotypical high school romance in the 1950s. They got married a couple years after high school while both still in their very young 20s. They are still married now, more than 50 years later. And as far as I can tell, it seems to have been a relatively happy marriage.

I don't know whether or not the LW's relationship can be salvaged, but don't dismiss it simply because they're young.

I sense LW has more control issues than a 23 year old usually does... It's only sex fer chrissakes.

@18 Simply wanting a monogamous sex partner doesn't mean you have "control issues."

Re. relationships between young people: the mean age of first marriage in the US is 27 for women, 29 for men. That means more than half of people who get married do so in their 20's. I'm no statistical genius, but It seems to me that there are decent odds that you'll end up married to a person you're with in your early 20's. The prospects for this couple, however, seem pretty dim.

@13, really creepy story dude.

Well said Avast.

Yeah, Dan is full of dismissive and sweeping comments about couples who are in their 20s staying together (and the older he gets, the further into the 20s he seems to push this sense of "high school romance"--I've heard him say it about people who are 25), as well as making pronouncements about the impossibility or inadvisability of a couple's talking about marriage if they've only been dating 6 months.

The sweeping generalizations are kind of irritating, not to mention arbitrary. Not to mention that those statistics he frequently refers vaguely to about the failure of marriages between young people, are really for teenagers and people who marry before the age of 21.
There is a world of difference between a 17 year-old and a 24 year-old, and there is no magic length of time at which it is appropriate to decide you're really in love. Sometimes people know it within weeks; sometimes not for years. It's not up to Dan (or anyone) to tell someone whether they can know they're in love, and certainly not based on the length of the relationship.

In the case of this couple, it's not about their ages, it's that they want different things. At least they do now. They should break up and each should pursue the kind of relationship she wants. Who knows if down the road they might come together again, either in the same "place," in terms of what they want out of a relationship, or with a stronger appreciation of what's worth making a compromise for in order to be together.

Tell GF You want her to do what makes her happy but you don't want to hear about it. Not. One. Word. If she falls in love, though, you want to get out.

@20; who are these people? Very weird mob.

I feel for WIWAOR. If my significant other wanted an open relationship it would be a deal breaker for me too. I would be devastated but it just couldn't work out. I'm a monogamy guy. I can't handle infidelity.

Ms Erica - I'll agree with #5, especially because of LW's chosen signature, but you've made me wonder if there's a good, non-shaming resource directed the other way around. Supposing the letter had been from GF signed "Wishing I Wanted Monogamy"; would there be a *Closing Down* on the other side for such a person? It might not be in equal demand for one reason or another, but such a thing would seem to be of some utility.

@6: Unicorn high-five! I started dating my wife when I was 20, but I too would never recommend that people get too invested in the partners of their early 20s. It works out sometimes, but my wife and I are the only people I know our age who are still with their partner from that age, and (even though it took me a while to figure this out), our relationship is pretty unusual.

23 seems really young to change your life for a partner. I wouldn't say it's impossible for it to work out, just like it's entirely possible to take a long drive with no seatbelt without anything bad happening. Everyone should probably still be advised to wear seatbelts, though.

@12:

Good point. I'm sort of confused by the discrepancies we all have--lots of early and lasting relationships among the commenters, but so often the relationships in the letters seem headed for the rocks. But I guess we're not a random sample--the people who ask for Dan's advice aren't usually the people who beat the odds at age 20.
I also notice that, among my friends with long-term relationship stability, a lot of us are advice-column junkies... which might be why us unicorns are so well-represented here.

@15: Thank you, #2, for proving my point.

Well played. ::golf clap.::

The "spell caster" spam is just the weirdest thing, if you play with it. Should anyone want back the partner who left them for someone else just before the wedding? And if the spell stuff actually worked, it'd be rape. Why would... man, there's just so many different layers of WTF going on with that.

@28, yes...it always comes down to the Glinda test.

Mr. Ven @26, now I want to publish that book: "Closing Down: A Guide to Ending the Experimental Poly Phase You Both Now Regret." It will have chapters on ethically breaking it off with other partners; the timeline back to fluid bonding together (given the various STI windows); creative story-telling and wig-making (to scratch the itch for novelty); finding non-judgmental therapists; and tips on co-parenting with ex-partners after the return to monogamy. Bonus chapter on how to explain everything to the kids as they get older.

I faintly remember wanting to get married in my early 20s to my first lover. And, now, I think what a mistake that would have been. Not because we weren't a good match (we ended up having a mini reunion 25 years later), but simply because I didn't fully know myself. As I got older, I picked up and refined some kinks I would have never considered before. And, more importantly, I lost the polar binary thinking where – of course – youthful stridency dictated that things could be only black or white. It took a couple of decades for me to appreciate and understand why grey is sometimes the only option. And that there's nothing wrong in choosing it.

The LW already knows she and her partner aren't compatible in a major way. She may relax her anti-open stance in a couple of years ... or she may reinforce it even more strongly. But only time will tell. There's no point in her being miserable if she feels coerced to accept her partner's roving eye, just as the partner shouldn't be miserable thinking she's being strangled by the ropes of monogamy.

Better for the LW to let her partner go. I believe Dan has previously suggested a script where the releasing partner tells the other to look her up again once the other has decided she might want to return to the relationship, but that there are no guarantees the LW will still be available ... or willing to pick up.

@12 and @31 good points but I had a rocky start with much drama, some incompatibilities.

Yet so far so good, decades of happy experiences including at the rocky start, lots of growth including new kinks, wouldn't trade it for the world.

I agree the odds suggest early relationships will end... especially if there are "issues" perhaps you should keep looking -- just sayin' sometimes it works out.

Dan's sample of letter writers is skewed by unhappy letter writers who stayed together and regret not leaving, so he defaults to "end it now". I have a few friends who are in their 50s and 60s and want to be partnered -- but never settled down because as they got older it got harder for them to the make the adjustments needed for living a partnered life.

It's possible to be happily single but these friends aren't happy about being single, yet they never learned how to settle down / settle for and are so fixed in their ways, a LTR looks impossible for them!

I know it's unrealistic to be in a monogamous relationship for a life time but thinking about her fucking other people while I play the sucker girlfriend waiting for her to come home makes me sick.

I agree with Dan that there isn't a lot of compromise on this issue, but it doesn't come down to the two choices laid out by WIWAOR either. I don't think most people in open relationships are playing the "sucker" when their partner is with other people. If it was mutually agreed upon, you aren't being cheated on and you aren't a sucker.

Can I flip the age issue? You're only 23. You've got LOTS of time to fuck up, give up and start over.

Why not let her have her flings for a while? If you find that "thinking about her fucking other people while I play the sucker girlfriend waiting for her to come home makes me sick," when it's reality, not a hypothetical, you can dump her the day before Valentines Day and look for someone more compatible next year.

Alright, first off, Dan's wrong about the age thing. You met pretty early, but so what? People are ready for different things at different ages, and there's no one life narrative re: sex and relationships that works for everyone. This is probably your first big relationship as an adult, and the problem with first big relationships as adults is that there isn't much to compare it to - so people might expect this relationship to be perfect/heading toward long-term commitment/ their one big chance at true love, when maybe it really isn't or shouldn't be. On the other hand, sometimes people do get lucky and meet a really compatible person early on in their life. It's important for young people who want romance to realize that it's okay if they haven't met the person they want to marry yet, and they shouldn't try to force their existing relationships into that box, but relatively young love isn't meaningless, either.

Second, it's kind of worrisome that you say it's unrealistic to expect a lifetime of monogamy. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but the only two choices in the world aren't "lifetime of monogamy" and "open relationship". You have the option of getting into a relationship with someone else who values monogamy, and keeping monogamy as a goal in that relationship to strive for. You are not the only person in the world who's uninterested in open relationships and looking for same, alright? If you're surrounded by people who think open is better (which can be a problem in some queer communities), branch out and expand your horizons. Monogamy is not an endangered animal, and if it's what you want, then you absolutely have the right to pursue it without downplaying your feelings.

Anyway, getting to the meat of the problem: you say you wish you wanted an open relationship, but it doesn't really seem like you do. Based on how you describe it (staying at home while she fucks other people, feeling like a sucker), you seem to find the possibility repulsive! Do you really wish you were into this, or do you just want to feel like the perfect girlfriend who'd really, definitely, change if she could? Do you wish you wanted what she wanted, or do you wish she wanted what you wanted, but feel like you'd be the bad guy if you said that?

You shouldn't do something that you find repulsive, even if it's to keep a long-term partner (who you might not get to keep anyway - plenty of people try to open up dying relationships as a last ditch effort to save it / to get to be able to fuck people they're actually attracted to without having to lose the partner they've come to love as a friend/ to have another one lined up for when it ends. Sometimes, though not all or most of the time, "I don't want to be monogamous" means "I don't want to be monogamous with you.") But let's look at your other options, apart from grinning and bearing it:

1) Break up with her, especially if you've already talked the issue to death and there's been no sign of compromise. If she'd rather be with you than have an open relationship, she might want to get back together, but don't expect this to happen, and if it does, think hard before agreeing to another run. Try to salvage a friendship out of this, if you can and you want to.

2) Tell her that you'd like to stay together, but you can't do an open relationship. Offer to help her explore ways that she could get her needs met without involving other people. If she's looking for sexual variety, be open to doing a wider range of things together. If there's a type of sex she feels confident about trying with a stranger or friend, but awkward about trying with her partner, be GGG about it. Try roleplay, maybe, if she'd like to simulate being with another person. If this isn't enough for her, accept it, and don't offer anything you're uncomfortable offering.

3) Explore why you're uncomfortable with the open relationship, and see if any of it could be fixed by looking at things through a different perspective or by putting limits on the open relationship. Read up on open relationships, but avoid resources that preach that monogamy is unenlighted and/or that everyone can be happy in an open relationship. If your resource seems like it's telling you that any negative feelings toward being in an open relationships are wrong or need to be pushed aside, drop it and look for something more neutral. Talk to your girlfriend about your needs and see if there's a way to meet them while still having the open relationship (for example, would you rather explore together than have her do it on her own? Would you feel more comfortable if she only fucked other people when you weren't going to be home by yourself?)

I don't actually recommend the third option, because I've seen a lot of people try that and end up in a place where they're really uncomfortable with the open relationship but feel like they're not allowed to be, so they either pressure themselves into believing that they aren't that uncomfortable, or treat their feelings of discomfort as a personal failing and suppress those feelings instead of listening to them. It's worked for some people, but I'd say, please be really, really sure before picking that option.

Honestly, I'd just break up.

@34: Maybe there is some kind of compromise available, like "we're open for a year, then closed for a year." I wonder if it would work, or just make everybody unsatisfied.

@37: Wisdom coming with age and experience and all, one hopes, and coming to be able to discriminate between that which is merely physical to that which represents real emotional riskiness.

This makes it sound a bit too much like non-monogamy is the "wise" choice, rather than just a personal preference. I agree with the substance, but the tone sounds like it's aiming to shame the LW into a relationship she doesn't want--which is the worst of the possible outcomes here.

Dittoes to the 'break up' chorus. If you feel sick about it, probably nothing she can do will make you not feel sick about it. (The pattern I see around me is people having horrible trainwrecks in the first relationship they try to open, and then afterwards being more or less OK with poly...but that first relationship, where they did it without being OK with it, isn't salvageable. Dunno how typical that is...)

but what I mainly want to mention is that there's a significant probability that asking for this is her way of breaking up with you without having to do it herself. If that's the case it doesn't matter how much work you put in trying to find a compromise or make yourself happy with nonmonogamy. One can get hurt very badly trying to measure up to a partner's expectations in this scenario, because they _want_ it to be impossible and will keep raising the bar until you're abjectly miserable.

Just to say that before putting in a lot of effort here, I'd recommend seriously laying it on the line, to try to find out if she'd rather just have a no-fault break up.

It's important to remember that not everyone is capable of opening up to their partners, so if her girlfriend is willing to honest without using it as a weapon, and will continue the dialogue with the letter writer that might not be the type of person she should be quick to give up on.

Who gives a shit how young you are, you aren't a statistic, and people are getting better at understanding themselves (not in Warshington, but elsewhere) so the old normals don't mean shit

If you without a doubt that you cannot be in any sort of non-monogamous relationship, then don't be afraid to let her go

however I firmly believe that most people who feel like they can't do non-monogamy, can do it if their partner and their partners BF/GF are respectful and not being a dick

There will be many days you feel like you need to give up, but she'll get past those days is the people in her life are not assholes

Sounds like an interesting book, EricaP. Though I'm guessing you're just joking. How you have navigated your life, though, would be an interesting read. Keeping a marriage with kids going, that is open.

I just wanted to second the idea that monogamy is not unrealistic. It's rare, but it happens. My husband and I are pretty socially anxious/awkward, and the thought of putting ourselves "out there" for non-monogamy doesn't appeal.

What is unrealistic is expecting your partner to only fantasize/masturbate to thoughts about you. If you're looking for that, you might not find it. But there are people who are able to commit to monogamy. And, if that's what you want, you should break up with your current girlfriend and find someone more compatible.

I did meet my husband in my early 20s but he was the rebound of another long-term relationship where my boyfriend and I wanted very different things out of life. It hurt to break it off with my former boyfriend, but if I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have met my husband. That was 20 years ago and we're still going strong.

@39 the problem with "open for a year, then closed for a year" is the havoc it creates in the lives of the couple's outside partners.

@45: "She wants to sleep with other people but says she is not interested in any kind of emotional relationship with other people."
She wants sex, not relationships, so theoretically that wouldn't be a problem.

LW, if you decide to try opening up your relationship at all (which is an incredibly brave choice, and no one can fault you if you don't), I can't stress enough how important it is to get a book like Opening Up and create a pre- and/or post-date ritual. Ritual is an extremely powerful tool for shaping thought and responses, and the solidity of a permanent ritual can do amazing things to help you cope. The ritual(s) can be as simple as a special way of saying good-bye beforehand and hello afterwards or as complicated as an entire romantic evening of reassurance and reconnection. Having a close friend who can come over while your GF is out for a movie&cuddle night can also help you get through the emotional turbulence.

I can assure you that your initial negative reactions WILL lessen with experience as the predictive part of your brain gets more positive reinforcement that this won't lead to disastrously awful results. What I can't assure is whether that lessening will ever be enough for that relationship model to be one that you can be comfortable or emotionally healthy in.

Other people are saying "You're just 23, ditch her an move on.", so I'm going to throw in a "You're just 23, why not try something scary and exciting that you may never try in your life otherwise." :)

Whatever you choose, best of luck.

I know it's unrealistic to be in a monogamous relationship for a life time

False! Millions of people pull it off, and millions more if you count relationships that have survived a transgression or two.

@Functional Atheist: try to determine if jealousy and possessiveness are characters flaws to be worked through, or if your strongly monogamous feelings are rooted in nobler soil.

Character flaws? Nobler soil? Give me a break. Your framing of this choice is bullshit.

Speaking for myself, an open relationship would be a shitty deal.

* Give me a hot, sexually compatible woman and I'm satisfied.
* If my ego needs to be reminded of its virility, I can flirt on dance floors, at dinner parties, or on top of mutant vehicles.
* An open relationship means I'm spending untold time and money trying to get laid. I find first dates and pickup scenarios as enjoyable as job interviews. Meanwhile, my attractive wife sends a text message and 15 minutes later she's banging some guy in my bed. Wow, where do I sign up?
* I know great people in open relationships, but the vibe at official poly and swinger events strikes me as forced and fake. Not my scene.
* I don't feel like spending untold hours processing jealousy in some misguided effort to tame emotions that ultimately have their roots in my DNA. I'd rather just watch Downton Abbey.

That said, if I was gay, I would totally be into open relationships.

So your girlfriend is yet another one of those halves of a committed relationship who wants to go out and find single people she can have sex with and yet still maintain the safety of her relationship with you so nobody can put any of the normal expectations of a real relationship on her? They're ubiquitous. Their desire to fulfill their sexual needs at the expense of everyone else is simply tiresome. As a single person who wants to be more than a fuck to somebody eventually, I find people like your girlfriend increasingly intolerable. She's an asshole. Find somebody nice.

My husband & I first hooked up at ages 21 & 25. We both expected a brief fling, friends-with-benefits -- both of us had other partners, serious relationships, roommates, moves, etc. Fifteen years later, we'd moved cross-country, bought a house together, and decided to make it legal. It's been more than twenty years since then, and we're happier than ever. BUT if anyone had told our twenty-something selves that we'd still be today after almost forty years, we'd have (a) laughed bitterly, and/or (b) run in opposite directions.

LW, if you want monogamy and your lover doesn't, be honest with each other, let your relationship go while you can still be friends. She might change her mind. You might change your mind. You might even find someone who makes you happier & that you love more than your current partner, impossible as that now seems. But while people can grow & change, it can't happen in a situation where *either* partner feels "locked down" by the other.

@49, I can see why an open relationship seems like a shitty deal compared with cheating on your wife. But Mr. P. likes knowing he can tell me about his dates and doesn't have to worry about divorce and public humiliation if something goes wrong.

P.S. This one time at burning man, a swinger couple drops by our camp to visit friends. She comes up to me and starts pouring it on, running her fingers through my chest hair, while her guy shoots us occasional glances, trying not to be too obvious lest his "character flaws" show through. I don't want to be that guy.

Unless I was gay, of course.

@EricaP: I'm glad you're happy with your arrangement, and I thank you for being pretentious about it.

Speaking for myself, cheating and open relationships are both shitty deals compared to a monogamous relationship that's working.

I was gay, totally different story.

Oops, "I thank you for NOT being pretentious about it."

It looks to me the LW is a serial monogamist type. Given the situation, she might try to open up to seeing other people too as a way of coping with this situation and exploring other options. She might meet another person who she will fall in love with and who will be able to fulfill her monogamy need. Since her gf might be risking loosing her in the process she should bring her predicament to the gf in an honest convo. The gf might reconsider given the risks and returns or they will agree to part ways due to incopatibility of needs. I predict the latter.

@45: the problem with "open for a year, then closed for a year" is the havoc it creates in the lives of the couple's outside partners.

I was thinking that the fact that her partner is only interested in sex (rather than a poly arrangement) could mitigate that, but I'm not sure.

I also have no idea how being a lesbian might change this--I hear being a gay man apparently makes open relationships (and no-strings-attached sex) very simple, but have no idea if it's the same way for women. I'm assuming that a sometimes-open relationship wouldn't be much of a problem for a external partners of male same-sexers.

@50: I'm sorry you keep meeting those people when that's not what you're looking for. They're not all assholes, though, provided they're not trying to pressure or trick anyone into a relationship they don't want. But that's true of everyone.

@54, that might have something to do with his new exploration of bisexuality.

"you're selfish / you're needy". this is dyke drama 101 run now before you waste years fighting in front of your kids. Tears ? Bong hit haze? too painful to watch... Please I wish someone had told me before being fundamentally disappointed in your mate, make sure you're on the same page. you deserve happiness, we all do=if she wants to go let her. The scab gets pulled off every time she goes...be strong.

@57, yes, gay male partners are probably most likely to understand just being fuck buddies when that's convenient. But I think anyone may find their emotions attached, even when setting out to have emotionless sex. Perhaps people who want to be "open for a year and then closed" should restrict themselves to sex parties, where people usually don't form emotional ties.

@58, I meant Mr. P. in that elliptical remark.

I don't know, at 23 I was violently against open relationships and I railed against my boyfriend's non-monogamous desires from 24-27. 28 I tried it and discovered that I was kinda curious myself, 29 I admitted that I was really turned on by both doing stuff myself and the idea of him doing stuff, and now at 30 I don't even recognize the 23 year old I was. Some relationships are worth the journey, and not all relationships have to open instantly.

@2: the idea that I would want to "lock her down" sexually makes no sense to me

Me neither. Unlike your wife, my wife has absolutely no interest in fucking any other men besides the one she married. My commitment to her is a gift, not a cage.

I think a mature approach to love and commitment isn't about limiting your partner

As cheesy as this statement is, I reluctantly admit it's true. It's also completely irrelevant to those of us for whom exclusivity makes sex and the relationship more enjoyable.

Jealousy is all about a fear of losing

Yes. If sex doesn't mean anything, then there's nothing to lose. Sex means something to me, though. It always has, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

in any monogamous relationship someone is going to cheat, and then what do you have? Sexually something a lot like what your girlfriend is proposing,

I've sometimes wondered whether swinging and open relationships are a sort of "preemptive strike" for people who are terrified of trusting their partners not to betray them. Your statement seems to support that theory. I think that's sad. With that kind of defensive mindset, how you could ever experience intimacy in the way that those of us who take the risk of trusting our partners do?

except she is up front and honest

It's the kind of honesty that comes easy if you are cynical, selfish, and/or afraid. Or if you are as sexually unfulfilled by your partner as your wife seems to be with you.

And what if someone cheats? If you think that somehow proves the folly of monogamous commitment, you're naive.

For my money the betrayal in any infidelity is the lie not the sex

You're obviously not very good with money because the sex definitely has something to do with it.

BTW, none of this would apply if I were gay.

Blah blah blah... the only thing one can truly know is oneself. I would really respect THAT for now. You need to respond to your needs first. Resentment and especially fear kill relations...seemingly that is happening as you know. You go forward and love the only way you want.

@EricaP: Yes, I understood. Assuming you were being serious, my mind was a little bit blown.

By the way, Erica (and any other cool poly people), please don't read too much into my monogamy crusade. I just really hate pretentiousness.

Move on. There is no way this will work out as an said there is no middle ground on this one. I do not think your age has anything to do with it. Find all that is good in the time you have spent with her and carry it in your heart. Take all the bad and learn from it so that your next will be better.

SeanDr; think you're being a bit harsh on @2.
Some people really don't have a problem with jealousy .. Maybe their parents worked real hard not to flame that fire.
Some cultures are fine with either sex having multiple partners .
So no, question your assumption it's part of your DNA.

It's really not unusual to have a lifelong monogamous relationship, in the sense of "from the time things got serious between us until one person died." It is unusual for your very first teenage crush to ALSO be the person with whom you can make things work for 60 years. Dumping someone because you have a theoretical timeline of the correct time to meet your round-up-to-1 and they've shown up 15 minutes early is roughly as foolish as checking your birthdate and determining that you'd better check 'monogamous life partner' off before the year is out.

You have a fundamental incompatibility: take avast's advice, break up, and see if you feel relief. You aren't going to find someone awesome and looking for monogamy while you're emotionally bonded to someone else.

@64: Truly knowing yourself is pretty tricky for most people, too. Sometimes the only way you can know how you feel about something in earnest is to give it a try. This woman sounds pretty sure, but if the relationship is doomed anyway, she might give it a try, just to check?

Not that I'm recommending "try it out" every time something new comes up, regardless of how you think you'll react. But our own gut instincts about what will make us happy are famously bad. @62 is one example. Tattoos are another.

(Preemptive disclaimer: I am not intending to imply all tattoos are bad, or that no one really knows what they want...just that for many of us, what we think is 100%-forever-right changes a lot over time.)

So long as her partner is not really trying to say something other than what she is saying

Then of course their relationship can survive this

but it doesn't have a chance if the LW is under the wrong impression

I suspect she knows deep down or can figure it out it she really thinks about it,

it doesn't really matter if her partner is going through a period where she needs to be selfish or whether her partner is seriously trying to live honestly and share every aspect of her life with her as there is no need for secrets

it does matter that they both are on the same page and not misleading the other due to the difficulty of discussing such topics

People have made the transition from mono to non with loving, caring, considerate partners, but they've also been able to do it with inconsiderate, assholes for partners

so long as they can be honest about their behaviors, thoughts and intentions

misleading your partners or not being able to inform them of your thoughts, desires, intentions and behaviors will wreck any relationship, even the ones that are loving, caring, considerate and kind

however misleading your partners, even when done through ignorance and or stupidity is not what I would define as loving, caring or considerate

I am now--at age 30--in the first non-monogamous relationship that has *really* worked for me. At 23, I entered a non-monogamous relationship because I really, really wanted to be with my partner; and I knew monogamy would be a deal-breaker. And honestly? It was every bit as terrible as I thought it would be. Neither of us knew ourselves well enough, or were yet articulate enough, to really engage and communicate how we were feeling or what we wanted. I filled a composition book with relationship rules and then stewed over every violation that might be happening, every time he went out. It was awful--and after awhile, I didn't want to be with him anymore, because all I could think about was everyone else he'd been with. If that's you--and you probably know, if it is--you might need more time with this thing before you dive into it.

If you have the sense that non/monogamy is something that might come up in relationships down the line, I think it's worth spending some time reading up, thinking through, maybe experimentally boundary-setting--either on your own, or with your current partner. I think that for many people, it does take dipping our toes in, and seeing what's good and what's difficult, to see whether or not this is really a thing we can do.

These days? For me? It's great. But it took a lot of experimentation, a lot of trying out different approaches, and a lot of looking to find a partner who wants the same *kind * of non-monogamy I do. It turns out that most of the things I need to make it work are the exact opposites of the ones I asked for, at first. And I really am about to be that asshole on the internet, telling you how much I trust him, how I don't even much feel jealous--and when I do, I'm ok with it. We can process it together. Usually through rough, possessive sex, lol. The thing is, though, almost none of that is about him, or what he does, or how trustworthy he is or isn't--I've always picked pretty decent partners. It's about me--trusting my desirability, trusting my judgement; trusting people I love; and knowing what's conducive to that, for me, and what isn't. Highly recommended resources: The Ethical Slut, by Dossie Easton. "For Lovers and Fighters," by Dean Spade. And all the angsty journal-writing you can handle.

And if you do send her out to play? FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DON'T SIT AT HOME AND WAIT FOR HER. Go do something outrageously fun AND ENGAGING AND DISTRACTING and preferably with some company, of your own. If you don't want a date, take a friend-date. Spend some money. Have a spa-night, or a poker night, or whatever. Be self-indulgent, and get yourself out of your head.

@47: You're right that mono/poly relationships can hurt both sides, and are probably a terrible idea unless both sides are completely nonjudgmental of the other's way of doing things, and the party who's compromising on their usual way of doing things (the poly partner if this relationship is going to be closed, the monogamous partner if this relationship is going to be open) genuinely doesn't mind, on the surface and deep down too. Mono/swinger, too. But keep in mind that the LW probably didn't set out to date a swinger, if her girlfriend dumped this on her fairly recently. She likely wanted a mono/mono relationship, and thought she was in a mono/mono relationship. Her girlfriend shouldn't be blamed for not knowing what she wanted or feeling like it wasn't alright to ask for it, but yeaaaaaah this isn't on LW.

And I think we're reading the "sucker" line in different ways? It might have to do with control, but I think it's more about wanting things to be fair. With mono/mono, poly/poly, or swinger/swinger, the same set of rules and expectations can generally make both parties happy, if not perfectly happy - like in a relationship between two swingers, jealousy might still happen, but both are going to want to do their best to push through the jealousy because they prioritize getting to swing over not having to share. With mono/swinger or mono/poly, there's no set of rules that can work equally well for both parties, so somebody's going to have to agree to something they're uncomfortable with if they want to stay together. I'd feel like a sucker if my hypothetical girlfriend and I supposedly loved each other, but we could only stay together if I made a huge, one-sided sacrifice that she wasn't willing to make for me.

@74, yet people do that all the time: agreeing to move to a certain city or to prioritize one person's career. If one's own needs are met, it doesn't make one a sucker to agree to a one-sided sacrifice.

LW; you are both young people. Your GF wants to play. Happens, esp in ones youth. She is being honest. You are being honest. I don't see any need to see yourself as a sucker.
You could live separately. That way, you choose nites to be together. No sitting at home waiting for anything. You're in your life.
Or you could recognize there is a big difference in what you both want and end the sexual relationship, but stay friends.
Sounds like, this discrepancy between you, can't be ignored.
Hey, Dirtclustit.

@63 "And what if someone cheats? If you think that somehow proves the folly of monogamous commitment, you're naive."

It proves the folly of at least one monogamous relationship. I think that the likelihood of cheating is a pretty valid reason to have some kind of plan for an affair on either side, or plan to deal with non monogamy.

I don't think anyone claimed that non monogamy was inherently better than monogamy. So I don't see your point. If your point is that monogamy is better period, then I disagree.

I don't like name calling, especially to bully hand waving points. It's not naive or damaged to lack the drive for monogamy, or to prefer non monogamy.

Philophile, I’m not sure that “Doesn’t work perfectly all the time over decades, but overall works pretty well” is the same as “insane to attempt.”

@78 Do you mean that monogamy or non monogamy works imperfectly but well overall? I wouldn't disagree with either possibility, and I didn't call an attempt at anything insane. My possibly buried point is that "naive" was used unnecessarily to bully. I don't like that. Especially to shut down a reasonable point and a preference that isn't harming anyone.

It's naive to think that bullying tactics would work to debate reasonable points.

I also posted because it sounds like seandr thinks that if he cheats it can mean the monogamy is still working. But I wonder if he would still think the monogamy was working if he discovered that he was being cheated on.

I can't think of a better reason for saying, "And what if someone cheats? If you think that somehow proves the folly of monogamous commitment, you're naive."
If he cheated, I could see this. If his mate did, I disbelieve that he would still have confidence in their monogamous commitment. Instead I think he'd write it off as folly.

@80 I interpreted it differently. Even if one is cheated on, that doesn't necessarily mean the commitment, the attempt, was folly. People can do things with good intentions, aware of possible risks and difficulties, and even if they fail, it doesn't mean they were being foolish. That's what I thought he meant.

FOLLY
1: lack of good sense or normal prudence and foresight
2: criminally or tragically foolish actions or conduct
3: a foolish act or idea
4: an excessively costly or unprofitable undertaking
5: an often extravagant picturesque building erected to suit a fanciful taste

Synonyms
absurdity, asininity, bêtise, fatuity, foolery, foppery, idiocy, imbecility, inanity, insanity, lunacy, stupidity

*** *** ***
I think that seandr is saying that while monogamy is not guaranteed to work perfectly over decades, it can work pretty well overall. I think he’s saying that if coolie @2 thinks that an episode of cheating renders the entire attempt at monogamy insane [absurd/fatuous/idiotic/lunatic/stupid], then coolie @2 is naive. Monogamous relationships are more resilient than that and monogamy is more complex than that.

It’s possible that cheating on the part of seandr’s wife would represent a greater threat to their relationship than cheating on his part, or possibly not. Since monogamy is very important to her, if she cheated it might be a sign of something very, very wrong in the marriage that was not being addressed. On the other hand, since seandr’s wife grants him a lot of latitude because she trusts that he isn’t cheating, perhaps the entire equilibrium of the marriage would be destroyed if she found out that he was — or even if she didn’t find out, because lies in themselves are destructive.

Either way, seandr feels that basing a relationship on the gift of monogamy is worth the effort and the risks. He doesn’t think he’s being foolish and he thinks that anyone who thinks he’s being foolish is naïve.

(Seandr, do I have this mostly right?)

AllisonC; if you reread Seandr s response to @2, you will find some very rude assumptions .. Your wife doesn't get enough satisfaction? Sounds pretty rude to me. Then again, @2, is presenting some pretty biased views as well.
Either monogamy or non- monogamy is a perfectly fine way to conduct ones sexual life. No judgement is needed, surely. The only expectation I would impose on any sexual path, is honesty. I know Dan gives " passes" for cheating.. So I'm guessing circumstances determine. As a general rule though, for me, lies and authentic sex ( love), don't mix.

I still don't appreciate the favorable comparison between an affair with monogamy and non monogamy. I think cheating is in deal breaker territory for most people. Individual cases vary. It's also a good idea to consider the possibility of an affair on both sides imo. And it's not naive or invalid to consider your own tendency to wander and human tendency to wander while you decide on what works best for you. It's also not "cynical, selfish, and/or afraid" to talk honestly about outside sexual contact, even if it's just the desire and not actions, and the talk is welcome.

That said, it seems like monogamy works well for most. But monogamish can work great too. I personally like a little mish. But I can still be cheated on, or cheat. And yes sexual fidelity can be looked at as a gift, and so can granting more sexual latitude.

@82 If your last paragraph was what he meant, that's a bit defensive but oops my dumbassery. I agree that monogamy is not stupid at all, it seems pretty normal. I have no idea about the cheating statistics in monogamy vs non monogamy, I'd think they'd be similar.

Crap the naive line might have been in reply to
@2 " fine be monogamous, but I think a mature approach to love and commitment isn't about limiting your partner, it is about unlimiting (if you will) your partner. If you can't do that this relationship isn't likely to work, you just aren't a match."
which fits. It's not mature to be a push non monogamy, it's naive to think everyone would be happy non monogamous. Ok my dumbassery.

edit: *It's not mature to push non monogamy*

Got married at 18... Still married at 39...5 kids. Don't let sex define your relationship. Sorry so basic but..think on this.

5 kids.. Yeah, know that one. @ 87. A tribe. And agree, sex does not define that situation ( though it sure is a nice glue).. My kids are pretty well grown, youngest just about to turn 17. Love em all..

I almost wish the Gay High Council would give Dr Sean a guest pass for a week just to see his illusions fall away. If it were really All That And A Chateau In Nice, the world would be very different.

I might have avoided reposting my old line here, but, as I take the point of posts 49, 53, 54 and 63 to be that he is requesting it, I shall remind Dr Sean once again that he would have to pass the stiff Entrance Examination.

(Should stiff get a capital S, or would that be excessive?)

@89, I think many men who have lived decades as "straight" try to avoid the stiff entrance exam by opting to bottom, instead. To give blow jobs, mostly.

@89: Thank you, Mr. Ven. For both "All That And a Chateau in Nice" and for keeping it subtler by not capitalizing the "S."

Ms Erica - Perhaps, but they never get promoted out of the third division. The Gay High Council is quite strict about some things.

Ms Cute - I nearly said Nancy, but a one-syllable name went better.