what a man-baby. the second he sees his kid he'll retract everything. or he won't and you'll know to DTMFA.

Yeah, but honestly it sounds from Childless' letter that SHE is looking at it as, "we going to stop having adventures so we can have kids now". And if she is expressing it to her husband the way she expresses it in her letter than is it any wonder that is how he is taking it?

Particularly if she did say, and he apparently feels she said, that "we'd never be one of those couples that stop adventuring because we have a nest and kids" but now she is saying, "Time to stop the adventures so we can have the nest and kids" then she is changing the agreement and that might be a deal breaker for HIM.

They do need a counselor, but it may not be the husband that needs to be convinced that you can be an adventurous parent. It seems to me it is Childless who needs to learn get that. And if she can realize that herself she can give him a picture of their future that is both attractive to him AND includes kids.

I'm just curious what they actually said to each other concerning kids. Did she every express that she one day wanted kids, or was it just put out as something that might happen if they happen to end their adventuring days while still young enough to have them?

And @1, having a kid to see his reaction to see if she should dump him is really a very bad idea. I don't think that needs to even be explained.

He doesn't want a kid. To have this man's child set's that child up for one parent who may be absent to some degree. That has implications . . . not good implications.

I disagree with Dan. Do not talk your husband into having a child he does not want. That shit makes for disasters.

Man baby? A man is allowed a life sans kids. Any 13 yr old can sire a baby. A real man can say no. Wifey can find some sperm elsewhere if she needs a child.

What is up with all the posters assuming that if someone doesn't want kids that they're just an immature child? I didn't realize knocking someone up made you an adult.

"He says there are things he wants to do that he will never ever get to do if we have kids now. I asked him for a time frame, and he said that he couldn't answer that. "



Wrong question. Right question would be "What are these things you want to be able to do that you feel can not be done once we have a child or children"?

Maybe they can find a work around, be adventurous parents, or know what exactly he is thinking about and plan for (or some of) those specific things pre-child.

People who want children and people who do not should not be together. End of.

Kids are gross. Get a divorce.

It is a rare male who ever feels "the time is right" the same way a woman does. If she's 30 or older, the window is rapidly closing--biology doesn't give a fuck about your bucket list. @5, knocking someone up is completely irrelevant to whether someone is a man or not, it's what happens after the kid is born that matters. Sadly, all to many males prove they are, in fact, not men when chips are down.



And guess what narcissists, nobody gives a shit about your extended adolescence. But if you're too weak willed to do the job, by all means be honest and get out before you become a resentful, shitty dad.

Divorce yesterday. Separate counseling, not joint, as it would be bitter to either if the other derived benefit from the counseling that worked in one's next relationship.

@11, I agree that separate counseling is usually more productive, but I think it's odd to assume that they'll part on such bad terms they'd resent any benefit & emotional growth their ex got from the counseling.

for the LW, think about what you want, and what you can settle for. If your top priority is having his child, can you do the heavy-lifting as far as parenting? Can you let him go off on sexual & travel adventures without you?

If your top priority is having a child with someone who will see that as a wonderful adventure with you, then end this marriage amicably and go look for someone who appreciates you and wants what you want.

I always thought having kids was kind of an adventure because there are so many unknowns: what they will look like, sound like etc. It isn't the same a travel or crazy sexy times but it is still some uncharted territory. It sounds like this dude might be afraid a real adventure, as in something he's never done before. Dan is right (of course) talking to someone will probably help.

No one should have kids unless they really want them. It is a huge commitment. It changes your life & your priories. What if you have a special needs child. No child deserves uncommitted parenting.

Having said that, my parents took us adventuring with them. We traveled the world full time, country to country, climbing mountains, sailing oceans, homeschooling. College was the first time I stayed in one place for more than a few months.

The real question is, are you willing to include the needs of a child in your adventures, even if you won't know what those needs will be and those needs will continue to change as he grows. Not for the faint of heart. Most kids don't need so much from you after the first 20 years, so there is time after they leave to have more self-centered adventures. My parents continued adventuring around the world for 30 years after we kids left home.

Divorce him, based on this:

We recently bought a house, and we were planning to have a kid next year. But now my husband says that he's not ready. He says there are things he wants to do that he will never ever get to do if we have kids now. I asked him for a time frame, and he said that he couldn't answer that.

So it sounds like he led you to believe kids were in the future. Then when it finally came time to be a dad, he pulled the "not ready" bullshit and refused to give a timeframe.

I've never known anyone who went from wanting kids to not wanting kids, absent getting some devastating genetic information. People go the other way all the time, especially once they bond with their own kids, but the opposite just never happens. Sorry, Childless: your husband never wanted kids, led you to believe he wanted kids to lock you down, and is now trying to run out the clock. Kick his ass to the curb and look for a guy who wants the same things you do.

Can I just say something? I really hate it when people throw out the "not a real man" accusation. If we're going to strive for gender equality and stop calling people "pussies" because that equates femininity with cowardice, we must also stop telling people they are not real men because they show fear or character flaws.

It sounds like he thinks he wants kids in a general sense, but now that it's down to the wire he got cold feet. This is no crime. Think of all the couples that date for years with the intention to marry and then break up once they are engaged because it all becomes too real.

Having said this, if he can not see that adventures of the non-insane variety can still happen as a parent, he probably does need to get kicked to the curb.

Full disclosure: a good friend of mine kicked himself to the curb in a similar situation. He wasn't married, but a wedding and kids were on the horizon and when the time came near he realized he wasn't ready and there are some decisions you can't take back. He was derided by many as not being a real man, but hey, sometimes you don't know until you know.

The caveat(s) I would add to Dan's advice: unanticipated issues with the child, and the resulting costs. These can in fact bring a virtual halt to all the adventures he craves. Dan is lucky (granted, much of that "luck" is well earned): he has a very high paying job(s) and a well adjusted only child. He's in a position where he can afford a well planned adventure.

That kind of security is not guaranteed for the LW (or anyone thinking about having children). One of my boys has ADHD pretty bad. Its nothing severe liking being born without a liver, but his ADHD means biannual trips to a pediatric neurologist; prescriptions; and we pay to send him to a private school (because our public schools have 35-40 classroom sizes, and he'd get lost in the mix). With all of this he's starting to thrive, but this stuff costs a shitload. My wife and I haven't done anything bigger than a long weekend in 5 years (and its not just the cost, which is a big a factor...but also where and with whom do we leave our boys).

And I wouldn't give up any of this for the world (and I'm not just saying that because it's the internets and you have to). Whoever said upthread that having kids is its own adventure was spot on. My boy's ADHD is like an always evolving puzzle, and everytime my wife and I figure out a piece...well that's its own massive fucking reward.

Anyway, I know this letter's a year old, so this is probably too late, but if the husband is reading and considering having kids in order to save the marriage, he needs to ask himself how he'll deal with the multitude of tough hands that can be dealt with kids.

Jesus Fucking Christ. I can't believe how many commenters here are all for divorce.

Can't they even give some communication and counseling a shot? She HAS to divorce him as being totally against kids if he doesn't immediately agree to have kids with her the instant she brings it up?

Fucking hell you guys are harsh.

Sometimes people's values or priorities change. But if your partner is dismissive about your former agreements; belittles your unchanged interests; insists their new desires are unquestionably the only good and correct ones; implies there's something wrong with you as person and a partner if you won't just go along with what they want; or acts as though they're doing you a favour by allowing you a short grace period to get over yourself and fall in line - they probably aren't someone you should be in a relationship with.



It doesn't really matter what the disagreement is over, or whether with some other partner you might have found a compromise, or even been prepared to give way entirely: behaving like that is always a bad sign, and doing it over something that would probably have been a deal breaker had the change of heart come pre-commitment is a serious red flag.



Also: it's very easy to use children as an unassailable excuse for whatever lifestyle decisions you wanted to make anyway, without even having to admit to yourself that's what you're doing - you are the selfless, good parent, making decisions only for your child, decisions which just happen to be in line with what you wanted anyway (no doubt because you're such a good parent), and if your partner demurs, they must be a selfish, bad parent. It's an easy trap to fall into, but it will make you a bad partner, and may not make you a particularly good parent either.

This letter is kind of a Rorschach test, isn't it? People see what they think is there and ignore the other possibilities.



What I see are mixed signals. She says that there are things he hasn't done that he won't be able to do after having a kid, but she doesn't mention what they are. She also seems fixated on a time frame, which is definitely important, but isn't the most productive aspect to focus on. Really, they should focus on what exactly these things he thinks he can do now that he won't be able to do as a dad are and either figure out how long they'll take to accomplish pre-parenthood or figure out how they can be done post-parenthood.



Really, I think it's hard to tell whether he wants kids or not; he could just not want them and be scared to tell her, but he could also be freaking out about the responsibility now that it's actually staring him in the face. Maybe he feels he hasn't enjoyed spontaneity enough as a non-parent. I think one thing that people often fail to realize, though, is that yes, 18 years is a long time to be mostly not spontaneous, but usually, people live quite a few years after their children are grown and responsible for themselves, and there's no reason spontaneity can't return to your life in a major way at that point.

Once my child was five, I took her all over the world. We lived on a ship for a summer, lived in Asia, lived in Europe, and go everywhere. It's been GREAT! She's in college now and a citizen of the world. The two most limiting times were her first five years, and her high school years (zero flexibility on attendance). But she's off on her own now, happily independent with friends all over the world, and I'm still adventuring.

Note: Dan's words about having just one child are crucial to the "can you or can't you" discussion. One child is what made the difference in my ability to keep on doing what I do. If I'd had two or more... not a chance.

Having one or more children is not something to be done when one person is not on board, from their own side. Time lines etc are not the point. Both of you need to want to go into this adventure together..
This man sounds like he may not want children. And that's his right. Maybe he's scared( and who can blame him? ), and some therapy together, to talk on this topic might unearth his " real" position.
Given that these two seem to have a good time together, I can sense this woman's heartache. Hope they found a way forward.

I really want to know what happened to these two. Where are you, OP?

@ 22, it's his right, but he should have made it clear long before this point. And without agreeing to parenthood already. Don't defend a right that he already waived.



That said, couples counseling should straighten it out.

Societal expectations that people couple up in order to involve childrearing make the conversation about not wanting kids, ever, very difficult to have with people who simply can't believe that such a lifestyle could willingly exist.

Couples counseling might work, but then again, it might work to strongarm the guy into having children he doesn't want just because the wife heard technicalities in his language. Again, those technicalities are built into the way society expects every adult of childbearing age to want them.

Having had half a childhood with a dad who didn't want me, I say the people who want the guy to reconsider for the wife's benefit are working to cause a world of hurt to any children this couple may have.

@10: Oh, the irony in you calling people narcissists while demanding that they create a person in their image in order to test whether they are "man" enough or not. You are dangerous and I hope for your children's sake that no woman would have any with you.

@ 28, you have failed to comprehend @ 10.

Also, I'll remind you that the husband agreed to parenthood already, and is going back on his word now. Perhaps that's for the best - perhaps he agreed under some kind of duress. But it's just as likely that he blithely agreed to it without giving it any thought because that time was "later," without really considering that later would someday be "today." It happens.

As I already said, couples counseling should straighten it out. Whether that means they stay together and have children or get a divorce because they want different things.

Pro tip for Dan: Mulitple children actually make travel (and lots of other things) easier than just having one child because, if they're close enough in age, they can keep each other amused, and not need parents for everything. Not so true when they're little (especially the youngest), but once the youngest is about four or five siblings play well.

@26. So he changed his mind.
Parenthood demands many yrs , as you may or may not know. Ok, so he's renigged. On a plan.
When it was all in the future, having a child looks a great idea.
He has the right to change his mind. She has the right to be pissed about it..

Hadn't read @30. So, you know the story of children.

@27. One can hope he wasn't strong armed into it, thru therapy. That's not what therapy should be about.
She says it could be a deal breaker for her. Sounds like she is drawing a line in the sand. Therapy may help him uncover fears of the whole process. And fears can be worked thru.
If he's really, deep down not wanting a child ever, then he's got to own that and she has to make her decision.

The phrase she uses, "living paycheck-to-paycheck," is a difference on adventuring with kids. "We go, we play, if it doesn't work we can sleep on the beach" is something you do as 2 adults up for adventure, but not with your 1-year-old in tow. Children deserve stability. Which doesn't mean you can't travel the world, but does mean the question of obtaining shelter shouldn't be stressing out your kindergartener.



@16: While I agree that you know when you know, I think that's an argument for not dawdling around endlessly (5, 10, 15 years) on the assumption that that thing you don't want you are going to start wanting after the readiness fairy bops you on the head. (And so often it turns out that what you didn't want was marriage, kid, travel, cat, cross-country move, whatever *with that person* which people don't realize until they break up and a year or two later they're with someone with whom all of those things feel like a great idea.)



It's fine to be on different pages from your partner for a while, but the unready person shouldn't ask for unlimited years of holding while they wait for the readiness fairy to bop them on the head. And the ready person should ask themselves, if they've been ready a year or two and their partner feels they will be ready "soon" meaning "when I feel totally different about it than I do now, which hasn't happened over the last several years together, but at some point you just wake up and suddenly you want a cat," if they want to look for someone who doesn't have them on standby. (I think the 'on standby' is often undeliberate. But no less crushing for someone gradually realizing that if 8 years didn't do it, maybe that's a sign 9 won't be the magic number, and bitterly wishing they'd gotten a clue back at year 2.)

I think, as they seem pretty open to talking about children in the future, that she put a deadline date on it. OK, you are 32 now? Why not say, OK, you've got 2 years. At 34, if she really wants to have kids AND he's not ready, she has plenty of time to call it a day and look for someone whose goals are in line with hers. Maybe 1 year, whatever. But on the whole, putting a clock on it doesn't seem like the worst answer.

@31: But he hasn't changed his mind, at least that he's told her. That would be a different conversation: "I realize that I don't want children."

What he's handing her is that he's *going* to want children, but at some unspecified future point after things he can't describe happen. "He says there are things he wants to do that he will never ever get to do if they have kids NOW." Except he can't answer what they are or how long it would take. It may be an accurate description of how he feels, but he's effectively dangling a future child as a reason to stay and stay and stay and wait for these unspecified things to happen, one more unspecified time frame should do it.

@ 31, I don't believe one really "changes their mind" about something as momentous as having children, so much as they might kinda go along with the idea (for any number of reasons, ranging from wanting to please a partner to going along with society's expectations) until they really realize what it's all about.

I didn't want kids when I was young. I started changing my mind about that in my mid 20s, though I knew I wasn't ready. It took me some time and I didn't become a dad til my mid 30s. Could be that this guy will come around and just needs time. I wouldn't have been able to give anyone a time frame, either.

But one difference between myself and Mr. Childless H is that I never would have agreed to children at any point that I wasn't ready. I'm fortunate to have married a woman who doesn't pressure me into major decisions she wants but I may not. Is Childless H such a woman? We don't know, but going by the tone of the letter I would guess not.

If she's telling the whole truth (and even if she is, there is such a thing as the Rashomon effect), the guy sounds like he's being a bit selfish. Going on this assumption, he might just not be willing to face up to the sacrifices parenthood requires, which aren't as drastic as they sometimes appear to the childless. Dan already goes into this couple's stated concerns, so no need to run over familiar ground.

@35: Once people have socked away several years together, I honestly think putting a (year-or-so) clock on it (for getting on the same page about a major life move they have to do together) should be invoked more often.

It's one thing if the discussion is "I want to move to Texas" v "I will never move to Texas." One of you budges, or you break up. It's another if it's "I want to move to Texas" vs "I WILL want to move to Texas at a future date, which I can't nail down, after some things happen which I also can't describe. And then we'll move to Texas. You need to be patient and give me space." "It's been 10 years!!!" "And I'm not ready yet! But if you're patient, then one day I'm going to wake up as a person who wants to move to Texas!"

@35: I'm not sure 34 is plenty of time to instigate a divorce, find someone new, and have kids. Two factors:

1. First: female fertility begins to rapidly decline around 35. That doesn't mean it's impossible to have kids after that, of course-- may of my friends had a kid between 35 and 40. But it's more difficult: the odds of getting pregnant assuming regular sex and no (non-age related) fertility issues are roughly 70% per year. So you've got about a 1-in-3 shot of not getting pregnant from 35-36, about a 1-in-9 shot of not getting pregnant from 35-37, and so on. The odds of non-pregnancy per year further increase as you approach 40, after which is becomes really unlikely. Now those cumulative odds aren't that big, but query whether you're willing to take (say) a 5% chance of never having any kids.

2. Second: Most people want kids, plural. If you start trying at 35, you have pretty good odds of getting the first kid. But the odds of the second kid are more remote, especially once you figure a) it will likely take some time to get pregnant the first time, b) you obviously can't have the second kid while you're pregnant with the first one (barring twins), and c) it usually takes a few months after the birth before ovulation begins again. So if you get pregnant by 36 and have the first kid at 37, you're looking at a couple year window to have the second kid. Those odds aren't that good. Add to that, it's exhausting to parent two young children who are near in age, so you may not want to try right away anyway.

3. All that said, it's not too difficult to have two kids if you start on your 35th birthday. However, that means that your 34th year will need to be spent a) getting divorced, b) getting over the divorce, c) meeting someone new, d) getting married, and e) getting to the point in the new marriage where you're ready to start trying for kids. That's a lot to fit into one year! Again, it's doable, but not realistic to think you'll accomplish it. Especially since (IMO) it takes a while to know whether someone is right for you. Marrying someone you don't fully know because you need to start trying to get pregnant is a huge risk with a large and obvious downside.

Given all that, 32 is a good time to start the whole process of divorcing someone who doesn't want kids. That gives you some slack in the schedule outline above to meet the right guy, and/or plan a nice wedding, and/or space out the two kids, etc. I do agree that giving the first husband some time makes sense, but two years is just waaaay too long given the reality of her back-up plan.

@15: People do in fact sometimes decide that they don't want kids after all - I've personally seen it happen. So it turns out the world is bigger than your experience.



@ 26, 29: He didn't sign a binding contract. People are allowed to change their minds or have doubts. He didn't "waive" anything and he won't until he gets her pregnant. Which he should avoid until he's actually willing to do it.



Yeah, it's shitty that he changed his mind about when ("next year"). It's possible it's just cold feet and he'll warm up to the idea, and it's possible they're just not a good match after all. The important thing is that he doesn't want to have a kid right now. Not now, not with her, maybe or maybe not with someone else, maybe not ever. Shaming him into it (like a number of people on this thread would like to do) is even shittier. We don't exactly have a shortage of people on this planet, and if you think going childfree is narcissistic, selfish, or immature, you may want to consider how breeder propaganda campaigns look to non-breeders. Because pressuring other people into replicating makes your own decision to replicate look a lot more like an ego trip that you're still trying to justify than it does a free and fair choice.



And yeah, you can still have adventures if you have kids. I have friends who do exactly that. But let's not pretend that financial situation doesn't play a large role in that, and let's not pretend that there aren't sacrifices to be made either way.

@37 Why is the person who doesn't want to jump right in and have a bunch of children selfish? That comes up every time there's a situation where someone doesn't want kids - even in cases where the couple is on the same page!

@40: You know people who said they wanted kids and then said they changed their minds. We already know those exist: Childless's husband is one of them. Unless you're a telepath, you don't have any information on whether they actually changed their minds. And as you're dismissive of "breeders," I'm guessing you don't understand just how strong the urge to have a kid is.

Sounds like it's your experience that's lacking.

@41: I think it's the vagueness that's selfish. Offering "You can totally have a baby (bearded lizard, romantic trip to Hawaii, move to live in a large city) at some future date, when my emotions have gone through a change I cannot understand or predict. Why are you not waiting?!!!" One partner is being clear and concrete about what they want, and one is offering nothing that can actually be negotiated or worked with.



With kids, as IHSN points out: fertility in women starts to drop at 30, drops steeply at 35. You don't know where you are on the ease-of-getting-pregnant scale until you start trying, but if you're in your mid-20s or older then it is a safe bet it will be more likely now than in 5 years, or 10 years. So having children, or anything that falls into things you want to do before having children (get married, pay off all non-mortgage debt, hitchhike across the country when you're young enough for sleeping on the ground to be fun) does get this tight time restriction to it. Actual biology not having caught up to the idea of ever-delaying adulthood. (In the narrow sense that an adult is able to care, full-time and in all senses (financial, emotional) for a young child if that becomes necessary.)

Having children is a big deal. Looking after them well, emotionally , physically and financially is a big commitment. And as a poster said above, they may have a disability or developmental issues.
If this guy lied to his wife, then of course that is not good. Just humoured her.
Still, I reiterate, unless both people actively choose to be parents- no coersion, no guilt trips, clear free decision- then resentment will come. The child with cop this.

IPJ @34 "didn't want...marriage, kid [etc] *with that person*... a year or two later they're with someone with whom all of those things feel like a great idea."

IPJ @36 he's *going* to want children, but at some unspecified future point after things he can't describe happen.

That sounds right. I think she should assume that his subconscious is telling him not to have kids with her. She should amicably break up with him, explaining her reasoning. If her absence from his life makes him realize that he does want kids with her, then he can take her out to dinner and tell her so. In any case, she'll be free to start dating other people.

@ 40, no, he only made a commitment that he suddenly doesn't want to keep.

@ 41, you're asking about someone who osn't the subject of the letter. It's clear that there was nothing "sudden" about this decision.

* isn't

@42: I'm taking them at their word, and as I knew them very well both before and after the decision (including getting vivid descriptions of how powerful the urge was), I don't have any reason to disbelieve them. You're the egomaniac who thinks you can read the minds of everyone on the planet who's ever had doubts about having children, including people I know and you don't. Do you feel stupid yet, or are you just here to demonstrate the Dunning-Kruger effect in action?

@ 46: So you're also against divorce, I take it.

He doesn't want kids. That sucks for her. He might change his mind, given time/counseling/a life-changing experience/another partner, but whether or not that's a possibility worth waiting for is something only she can decide (resenting him for making her wait might be reason enough to leave). The point is that there is no "trick" to get him to change his mind, nor should there be.

@48: My point isn't that I must be right; it's that you have no useful information to the contrary. You certainly have nothing to add to that discussion beyond second-hand accounts of "friends from Canada," as it were. Put more simply: You're full of shit.

Now if someone who actually did go from "really wants kids" to "no kids" wants to chime in, I'll listen to that opinion gratefully.

@ 49, obtuse much?

I don't mind Golden Oldies, even though I've been reading Savage Love since the "Hey Faggot" days, so most are familiar to me.

But ... I sure would love it if they included a follow-up. Here's my suggestion to Dan:

Put out a bunch of old letters that you think could benefit from a follow-up. Write to each of them and tell them that you'd like to put their original letter, along with their new follow-up, in the "Golden Oldie" stockpile. Maybe a large percent won't respond or won't be reachable. But even if 10% do respond, that could be a lot of great and NEW content. Keep 'em in reserve (except for the juiciest ones that just can't wait) and use them when you go on vacation, etc., and need a quick "go-to."

I, for one, would love that so much.

@50 So a guy that doesn't want kids will be "fixed" by therapy into wanting to have kids. Surely you don't mean that.

I have two kids, aged two and five. We are currently living abroad; moved here just shortly after kid 2's first birthday. We travel regularly on a modest budget and have lots of adventures together. We have a good sex life, monogamous by choice (with the caveat that in the first year or so of our kids lives our sex lives were indeed quite curtailed). Sure, our adventures aren't the same as if we didn't have children but they're new and different kinds of adventures. And isn't that part of the definition of adventuring?

@21: Once my son was 5 WEEKS, we took him all over the world. (Pro-tip: on the way home from the hospital, get passport photos and then apply for an expedited passport). By 5 years old, he'd been to 20 countries on 3 continents, has since been to Asia as well, been to all 50 states by age 11, AND, while doing all of that, we've done solo trips and some no-kids trips that were too extreme (in our minds) for elementary-school children.

And yet, we weren't as ambitious as others. I know a couple who hiked / rafted 800 miles last summer with their 2- and 4-year old, albeit at 7 miles a day. 10% of was close to settlements, and 30% was within a week of easy supplies, but 500 miles were really remote, Alaskan wilderness.

The H gets to have his feelings and he feels that the adventurous life ends at parenthood. That's not true - those parents have more adventures WITH their kids then he does without children, but he's going to feel how he feels about that.

So, yeah, LW needs to find a guy (or a girl who can use a turkey baster) who WANTS kids. She might also look for someone who sees parenthood as the beginning of something instead of the end of everything. Those traits are more likely in a guy in his 40's or 50's than in his 20's/30's. If she can get her head around being with an "older man", she might get more of what she wants regarding parenting.

Hey guys, I too have shitloads of cash to travel all over the fucking world with tons and tons of kids and because I can do this it's completely realistic for everyone else to drop their careers and do the very same thing.

Bitter, much, Solk? Sure, one can earn a lot of money. One can alternately learn to travel cheaply and choose less expensive activities (hiking, museums, etc) instead of Club Med.

Not my cup of tea, but I suppose on-line grousing feels edgy and adventurous to some. To each their own.

I'm sure it's possible to have adventures when you have kids. But since we don't know what specifically this guy has in mind none of us really know if the adventures he is interested are feasible with children or not.

Just because a lot of people with kids have had adventures that include their kids that they were satisfied doesn't mean this guy is going to be satisfied with those types of adventures under those circumstances.

Maybe he will, and they definitely need to discuss the realistic options.

But none of us know what is going on in this guys head, what it is he really wants, or what would satisfy the need he seems to have for future adventure and saying "I did it so he should too" isn't necessarily true considering that.

As for doing things more cheaply, we don't know if it is the expense that is the issue or not, but even if it is, that might not be what will make him happy. That it can be done, and that some people are happy doing things that way doesn't mean it will satisfy everyone.

Everyone makes their priorities. This guy is clearly making his adventures, what ever they are, a priority over having kids. There is nothing wrong with that. The only issue is that he and his girlfriend are not on the same page and they either need to find to get on the same page or they need to go their separate ways.

But trying to convince someone that they should want kids is a bad idea, and trying to convince them that kids won't mean they have to give up some significant things is an outright lie.

@60, Fortunate: "trying to convince someone that they should want kids is a bad idea." Absolutely.

But speaking for myself and several male friends, when we were in our 30's, parenthood seemed the death of all we knew. For all of us, it wasn't as extreme as we thought, and when both parents had similar goals (say, continue having outdoorsy adventures), then one didn't have to give up much at all, although things certainly changed.

I strongly suspect that "giving up adventures" is a red herring (consciously or unconsciously) for his fear of the unknown. She could ask what is important to you? And if he replied "surfing at least 3 hours at least 4 days of the week" and she showed how that could continue, he'd throw up some other objection. New stuff is scary. Parenthood is VERY new to most 20-, 30-somethings because we largely segregate ourselves into parents and non-parents. Telling someone else to, "jump in, the water's fine" is not going to be convincing to the reluctant.

@50 If by "bitterness" you actually mean an awareness of things like "median income" and how expensive it is to travel and take time off work on a regular basis then spot on! Otherwise, you just sound like you want to pick a fight.

Not at all surprised to see you move the goalposts though. I guess hiking in the local park is now the same at travelling all over the fucking world?

I've seen plenty of folks have kids, and everything for them changes. This idea that they can suddenly have a kid, drop their career and continue to travel around the world is the realm of dilettantes with trust funds.

Solk512. True. Travelling can be expensive, and having children does change ones life. That some of the posters here got it together to travel so well with kids in tow, good on them.
For a woman, once she decides to have a kid and gets pregnant, the body( usually), does the rest. All those hormones pulsing , the feelings of connection to the growing child etc.
For the man, this part of course, doesn't happen. So, he needs to mentally be ready to go there. All the bullshit about what you have to let go of etc, has to go. Focus , now needs to be on the new life beginning.
If a man can't even start that process before the pregnancy, doesn't want to be in this process, go down this path, then it's best for the woman to not try to make him go there.
Find a man who is excited, like her, at the prospect of parenthood.

Sounds like Childless H has hit an impasse with the husband. If you don't want kids, you shouldn't have them....and you shouldn't marry someone who does.

@60: The problem is that his wife can't figure out specifically what he has in mind. And has asked. Adventures! Stuff! Stuff that totally will not happen if he has a kid now, so they should wait until he feels all his adventures have happened and then he'll be ready. No, he can't give her any timeline on that.



Which is why I think 61 is right that he won't give her anything concrete because she might have an answer. And he doesn't say that he doesn't want kids--a concrete thing. He was on board to start trying soon--that's what planning to have a kid next year means--and then he decided he wasn't ready, because some things he can't articulate need to happen in a timeframe he can't articulate.



That's rather unfair to the person whose plans you just stuck on hold. Not even with 'I have changed my mind about wanting X' but 'I will totally want X, after we do various things I can't articulate.'