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Nov 25, 2014 at 11:20 am
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So, now what do we do to fix this ASAP?
Now, can you try to keep your bigoted, racist rant that generalizes all white people as not caring to yourself. I guarantee if the same was done by a white person about another race you'd be howling RACIST all day.
One thing to consider here is not that property is valued more than a life. But property is valued slightly more than an expression of being angry. Grow up and stop being a baby if things don't go your way.
Thanks for completely missing the point of Paul's post. We wouldn't be seeing these violent acts were it not for the fact that the people engaging in them (admittedly a very small minority of the larger number of otherwise peaceful protesters) have been systematically denied any other demonstrably effective avenue to express their grievances. It's not that "things (didn't) go their way", it's that things NEVER go their way, ever. The entire system has been rigged to actively prevent things from going their way, and after decades of silent, passive acceptance of this reality, black Americans are getting understandably tired of playing "by the rules" and yet never seeing any positive results. Seriously, why would anyone continue to respect rules that clearly are intended to maintain the status-quo of relegating them to second class status, or worse, to a status that continually denigrates their own lives as being of less value than a piece of property? That's even worse than slavery, where, if nothing else the individual has value AS property.
@6 lets look at what happened here. Michael Brown assaults a police officer, and is shot and killed because the officer feared for his own life. Evidence is then brought in front of a grand jury to see whether the officer should be indicted on a wide range of charges. The grand jury then rules there is not sufficient evidence for an indictment. And so the acceptable solution for a small minority is violence? It seems to me that a more effective way of fixing the system would be to vote for change.
Name calling, what the FUCK are you on? Name-calling would require one to actually engage in the act of, you know, calling you names. Please refer to the section of my comment above where I called you anything? As for a factual issues well, it's certainly a fact that our nation by-and-large was founded on the principles of conquest and subjugation, good old-fashioned American "manifest destiny", something you may have read about it in one of your school history books, perhaps, and which has been an ongoing state-of-affairs from the founding of the Republic, right up to, well, last night. If you think the military grade show-of-force in Ferguson, predicated on decades of a powerful white minority imposing its diktat on a powerless black majority, is anything less than an expression of this, you simply haven't been paying attention.
@14:
Thanks for invoking Godwin so early in the discussion, but regardless, here's the crucial difference: when angry white mobs burned down Jewish property in Germany, or black property in the Southern U.S., or Native American property just about everywhere else in this country, they weren't doing so from a position of disenfranchisement or lack of power, they WERE the power, imposing their will on those who had little or none to begin with. They weren't responding to decades - nay centuries - of injustice, marginalization, or abuse; they were creating the climate to inflict injustice, marginalization and abuse on those weaker than themselves.
For once, I am in complete agreement with you.
Wonder of wonders, miracle of miracles and all that.
Its pretty simple don't assault a cop, and you probably won't get shot by one. Conversely if you the police think there might be violence in a protest its their duty to contain that. So as it seems you think that lawless violence without police intervention is the thing to do here. The next time you decide you need a new TV hold a riot and just hope you don't run into someone willing to defend themselves.
I think back to the WTO protests and the incensed reactions of the dumb sports DJs on KJR. they showed the same lack of critical thinking about issue at hand, the police overreaction, and instead focused on Starbucks windows.
Fuck a Starbucks window.
It's my understanding from following livestreamers and the police scanner last night that there were some rioters shooting at the public and the police. It may make me incorrect, but I don't think it makes me an idiot.
http://gawker.com/bad-americans-cant-sto…
Or conversely, maybe cops shouldn't draw weapons at close range and not expect their intended victim to fight for their lives. After all, we only have Wilson's testimony that things went down as he described; the only other person who could have directly contradicted any of his statements being conveniently dead.
And maybe authorities should seek ways to de-escalate violence from the outset, instead of deliberately fomenting an atmosphere guaranteed to result in violence, as they did last night by delaying - by a full eight hours - announcement of the GJ's decision until late into the evening, when they knew crowds would be large and increasingly agitated.
@24:
Sorry, Blip. I mistook your icon for someone else, my bad. Evidently it's time for another eye exam.
If we stopped blaming the government for our issues and made ourselves better people, this would all change. We take revenge on those who do us wrong, we punch when we have been punched, we slap harder when we have been slapped. I myself am not perfect; I'm so very flawed and full of shit.
If we want to see change, we need to pour our time and our money into things that matter... our schools, after-school programs, parental education campaigns, career-training. We need to give our people the tools to achieve their dreams. We don't need to give them a ten-year long hand-out; we need to "teach them to fish" so they can live until it is their natural time to pass. We need to realize that this precious life we have been given is a privilege, not a right, and every negative action we make ripples out from us, like a nasty "pay-it-forward."
What's wrong with America? Us.
A black male is shot dead by law enforcement in the country every 28 hours. Only some get publicity. Michael Brown's death reached the news because people forced it to be covered.
@30 Don't forget the forensic evidence showing that Wilson was assaulted, and the first shot was fired in his car, which suggests a struggle for the weapon or at least makes his story somewhat believable. Either way, the situation likely could have been avoided by actions on both sides. But, if a cop feels threatened for their life, they do have the right protect themselves. And as the law states their actions should be judged as they appeared at the time, not how they look in hindsight
But the officer couldn't have "feared for his life" when he killed that unarmed kid -- he was shot 153 feet from the police car. The policeman may have drawn it in fear, but there is no way a lethal response was justified if the kid was running away.
It is the same as what happens with Seattle police (Native American woodcarver) or the stand your ground laws -- the laws need to be changed so that fear is not an excuse for killing people. The law basically says the more racist you are, the more it is ok to kill people since you're genuinely scared.
We need a better option for police than guns, and a better law that isn't based on fear.
Also Michael Brown wasn't running away, he was shot while facing the officer.
The forensic "evidence of assault" is inconclusive at-best. Wilson claims Brown in a state of "demonic rage" landed several "haymaker punches" (his description) to the side of his face using his left hand (while simultaneously clutching a fistful of cigarillos that somehow miraculously weren't splintered all over the inside of Wilson's patrol car upon impact), but the contusions in the photographs aren't consistent with that level of physical damage. For all we know, Wilson could just as easily have inflected that on himself during the time he was left unattended prior to the examination. The fact that he didn't seek medical attention at the scene, and essentially had to be convinced by his superiors to go to the hospital at all would seem to indicate that at the time he didn't consider whatever physical contact Brown may have made significant - until of course it could be fit into a narrative that made Brown appear to be the aggressor. And that narrative implies Wilson drew his weapon only after being hit; but again, for all we know Brown was responding because Wilson's weapon was already drawn - in which case he may very well have concluded he was about to be shot anyway and reacted accordingly.
Unfortunately, we'll never know the truth of this, because Brown is dead and so we only have Wilson's version of the story. Convenient for him, yes?
In civilized states, that's not how it works; self-defense must be proportional in its level of force. Fuck sake, your ignorance is astounding, as is your (penis-compensating?) aggressive blustering.
@42 you are aware that multiple (black) witnesses testified that Mike Brown assaulted and tried to charge at Darren Wilson right?
You have no idea what you are talking about. Self defense laws PREDATE stand your ground by a LARGE MARGIN. Stand your ground means you can use force when you have the chance to run instead.
Oh, and Washington is one of those "uncivilized states" where you do not have a duty of retreat. Source: http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2012/04/u…
And those laws apply to DEADLY FORCE only. You can still beat the shit out of anyone trying to steal your stuff.
Stop being a whiny white liberal.
It is possible to be both appalled by the killing AND appalled by the rioting. Where is it written than someone can't be pissed off at both? Thing is when people riot it makes their message get lost. If they had simply shut the city down by laying in roads, blocking traffic, tying up lawmaker's phones with all their calls etc they would have gotten their message out a lot more effectively than going ape shit.
Oh, and unlike Paul, I ain't white, I am not rich, and I am not texting "death to capitalism!" from my iphone 7.
Oh, and the rioters also destroyed a black owned business: http://www.dcclothesline.com/2014/11/25/…
Honestly, why burn down a black owned fashion boutique to protest racism against blacks? If they wanted to burn something down, burn down the damn police station.
I have the unfortunate privilege of working in an industry with real racists wandering around... here is the horrible real life conversation I overheard today... "Holy shit dude, did you see the nigs rioting last night"... "hahaha I know... dumb asses destroying their own neighborhoods"... "Hahahah it was awesome!...the cops and the national guard should just pull out and let the stupid nigs burn the place to the ground"... "hahahahhahahahah"
So to recap:
Racists; White Americans that are happy when black people riot and destroy their own neighborhoods and wish it would happen more often.
Not-Racists; White Americans that care about the damage being done to the property of the black property owners in the black neighborhood.
These actions color omitted instead of respecting life, show no regard for life.
you are very naïve.
Spot on. Well written.
I believe the rioting accomplishes nothing except destruction and more anger. It is absolutely counter constructive.
As I mentioned on another posting, a "teachable moment" is being squandered. I have no problem with civil engagement of all the viewpoints regarding the announcement of the Grand Jury's findings. But, wanton destruction is absolutely unnecessary and criminal. Indeed, some of the businesses destroyed were minority owned.
All lives matter, all businesses matter and justice matters especially. Let's calm down and engage constructively not destructively.
@62: Economics and poverty in this country are inseparable from racism.
@59: No one is saying "woo hoo more rioting please!" What is at issue is that the same people who leap to justify the utterly unnecessary destruction of a black life at the hands of a white powerful establishment are suddenly full of righteous outrage when it's the destruction of property at the hands of powerless black folks. If that sounds like you, then you might want to take a look at yourself.
@53: (See @59 above)
@ 50, 51 and 52: Yes, be horrified by both. By both the murder and the destroyed buildings. But you have to know which is worse, and that it is racism that caused both. If you aren't clear on that, you need to do some more research and educate yourself.
@COMTE: Love you on this thread
I never said anything about whether the legal right of self-defense or "stand your ground" laws came first. By attacking me for allegedly making that claim, you've resorted to beating a strawman. Good job.
I spoke not of "stand your ground" laws in general but of "permissive stand-your-ground law[s]" which place fewer restrictions on the use of deadly force. For the record, Washington does not actually have a "stand your ground" law on the books; the lack of duty to retreat in public is based in court precedent. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one, seeing as you just misread the CNN article.
As for "beat[ing] the shit out of anyone trying to steal your stuff", the instant you escalate force you become the aggressor. If someone grabs your wallet and tries to run off, you're perfectly welcome to tackle them and hold them down. Beating the shit out of them is illegal unless they proceed to attack you, in which case you're no longer simply defending your property but also defending your person with proportional force. Like my ENTIRE POST was about, self-defense doesn't give you carte blanche to inflict violence on another; AS SOON AS you escalate force (except with certain exemptions related to defending one's home), you become the aggressor.
THIS IS A WELL-ESTABLISHED LEGAL CONCEPT. YOU ARE A WELL-ESTABLISHED IDIOT INCAPABLE OF PARSING OR FACT-CHECKING COMPLEX ARGUMENTS.
Just to really piss you off, I'm going to remind you of the time you falsely claimed that President Obama appointed a former Monsanto CEO to run the USDA, and then when I corrected you and showed my supporting evidence, you insisted that you'd been correct in the first place.
Um. "No one is saying "woo hoo more rioting please!". Huh? Try Michael Brown's stepfather:
" Burn this bitch down!"
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/colum…
Note that one of the businesses burned down was owned by an African-American woman. This is criminal and uncivilized.
I stand by what I said in @59. I don't need to look in the mirror. I'm asking for constructive engagement. I want a discussion. Is that so evil?
"Rioters robbed the store then set it on fire. He said company leaders are more concerned about their employees who huddled in the back room before running out.
One employee said, "If we wouldn't have stayed put we most likely would have died."
"Came up so fast, so quick, I mean, that they got out through one of the back doors and we just literally abandoned the store,” Thornbrugh said. (KOTV-6, Tulsa)
I live in a small town with a Main Street and many friends who own their Mom 'n' Pop shops. I will say we care more about LIVING people than property, that should be universal. The people who don't care about property don't care about anybody. Ever been robbed, a home invasion? (I have, both.) They don't care about lives, property or anything living people have worked hard for or they'd never do what they do. Respect for property and lives are not necessarily mutually exclusive.
What's the big deal anyway? A 6'4" 300lbs criminal attacked a police officer. We need more good men in blue who can work under that kind of pressure.
Its like a black thug kills another black person every day= another day in the hood and people just turn a blind eye to it mostly. A white police officer shoots a black criminal every once in a while = major national outrage. It makes no sense. And also people need to stop letting the media tell them how to think. Its sad that he died. It's tragic, but if he had not given the police any reason to mess with him, then he would still be alive to this day.