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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
I'll still point out that this was a wanted pregnancy, and thay she likely has formed an emotional attachment precluding abortion as something she'll ever consider, but perhaps she should anyway. I appreciate your perspective.
As I said, she didn't mention money. They planned the pregnancy before the shit hit the fan, and the guy will be on the hook for child support if she wisely dumps his ass. You're making up a problem she didn't write about.
SLLOTD LW is in a very bad situation. Her life has been turned upside down, her cheating partner has destroyed her trust in him. It doesn't matter if he slept around, gambled or had a major substance abuse problem. He lied for the past eight years, and destroyed the illusion that the LW had of her life with him..
She can't DTMFA. They have two kids, another cooking in the oven. She has to work something out. In this type of situation where trust has been broken, she needs to take as much control of her life and as much control in raising their children together. That means legal framework of custody, housing, health.
For her mental health, she should stop having a romantic/emotional relationship with the guy...
My guess is that she will continue with the status quo, be miserable beyond belief, and finally come to the conclusions a couple years from now, she can't live with him..
Go back to your rants...
Probably quite different.
It just doesn't seem feasible.
http://www.guttmacher.org/in-the-know/ch…
The statistic comes from this source:
Jones RK and Kavanaugh ML, Changes in abortion rates between 2000 and 2008 and lifetime incidence of abortion, Obstetrics & Gynecology, 2011, 117(6):1358–1366.
Jones RK, Finer LB, and Singh S, "Characteristics of U.S. Abortion Patients, 2008" (May 2010)
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/US-Aborti…
‘If having another child doesn’t make a difference, you’re doing it wrong. .... [R]aising children is intensive. It involves a great deal of time, money, and energy. It involves investing in an individual little being, forming a connection, and being there when needed. The idea that you wouldn’t even notice the addition of another child? That’s not how it’s supposed to work!
‘Perhaps the reason this really hit me is that I’ve so recently made that transition from having one child to having two children. Having Bobby means that I have to take time that I would have otherwise given to Sally and give it to Bobby instead. It means that the time and energy I have to devote to children is divided between them. I will have less to invest in Sally as she grows up than I would have had I not had Bobby. That’s simply how it works.’
The blog author only has two children, so yeah, it does apply to smaller families. At least she thinks it does.
*** *** ***
Another way of doing the math: if you have two parents and two children, you have the resources of two adults to split among four people, so each person gets the equivalent of the resources of half an adult.
In your two-parent, three-child family, each person — including you — gets the equivalent of 40% of an adult.
In the LW’s projected one-parent, three-child family, each person gets the equivalent of the resources of 25% of an adult. By keeping it at two kids, they’re at 33% each. Much better for everyone.
Note that she writes as if her ex will be of no help once he’s gone. Also note that she frames all the pregnancies as her boyfriend’s idea — the idea that she is highly invested in this particular pregnancy in the absence of a shared project with the man she loves is something you invented.
Also, I disagree that the final pregnancy was framed that way. She only says they were trying to have a third child. While having children originated with him, she gives no hint that she regrets having kids or doesn't love them. Her fears are all about lacking his support, meaning all the work and mental support good husbands give. Changing diapers, feeding the baby, letting mom get out on her own without imposing on family and friends or arranging for babysitting, holding her hand, etc etc. She must have gotten all that the first two times around if shr's dreading going without it now.
As for your math, I have to say that's one if the clumsier rhetorical devices I've seen in a while. Besides being very nice round numbers that don't correspond to real world experience (insured families don't pay much for the care and feeding of infants) the resources split are entirely dependent on the total being brought in, and a family bringing in $250k isn't splitting all that money on family expenses. Nearly every such family is investing or saving money as well, even if it's just in owning a house. A family bringing in $50k likely spending it all on family expenses, however. Where does this couple fall? We don't know. But if it's toward the former, they can easily afford the child without it taking such a drastic percentage of the family budget.
No experience of being two months pregnant.
LW. At least he's told you. That is a start, of him being honest.
If you decide to continue, then you guys need to get therapy ( a sex positive therapist/ might be best), to work out what the hell is going on and has gone on for you two. If both of you are committed
To rearing your children well, that's what you make the focus.
He has lied to you sexually from the start. A big big transgression. Yet, these children of yours have got many yrs that they need both of you. I'm guessing he's an ok dad? Then that's what he has got to build on.
His sexual compulsions can be looked at. Maybe if he finds a good female therapist, he could work out what the fuck he's playing at.
I'm wondering how many c/s women out there, have stayed on with men, working round their unpleasant " family" behaviours, so their kids had a father. I'm putting my hand up.
I also don't see anything to suggest that the bf is providing the kind of help that Matt suggests when he says @116: "Her fears are all about lacking his support, meaning all the work and mental support good husbands give. Changing diapers, feeding the baby, letting mom get out on her own without imposing on family and friends or arranging for babysitting, holding her hand, etc etc. She must have gotten all that the first two times around if shr's dreading going without it now" (emphasis added). Well, Matt from Denver, what makes you think this guy is a "good" husband? He's not even a husband--maybe that's just too much of a commitment for him.
I don't know where the cheating, lying scumbag would find the time--and she never mentions his parenting skills. She just says that she doesn't know if she can manage doing absolutely everything all by herself. My ex-husband was a pretty decent dad in the early years (much more involved now), but his help extended to giving the occasional bath, playing the odd game. He certainly didn't pitch in in the way Matt describes, and he wasn't off fucking around either.
Oftentimes, the word "support" is used for far less than that. Sometimes it just means money.
As for their finances, who knows? But I think it's reasonable to assume that they're not in the $250K range. She talks about buying a townhouse, not a detached house. The economy's dire--everyone's in debt. I have a good job, and I'm barely, just barely hanging on by my fingernails. In the absence of her saying otherwise, there's no reason to assume that money is flowing fast and easily around them.
Soooooo... I'm pretty much with Dan on this one. My husband is a scumbag, sure, but as husbands go, he could be much worse. Plenty of monogamous husbands are mentally or even physically abusive, do terrible things to their children, have addiction issues, and so forth. My husband cheats on me, probably once or twice a month. It's not the Disney princess fairy tale story - I'm certainly not in love with him any more - but I'm much better off than millions and millions of women.
So I'm just going to go with it. Until something happens, and something will eventually happen, I've decided that I'm just going to stay married and focus on my son, work, friends, and self. My life was never all about being married, and it doesn't have to be now that I am married. I've never cheated on anyone before, and having a toddler in tow doesn't make that any more inviting, but if the opportunity presents itself, I've given myself permission to go for it. (Realistically, it won't happen - I'm naturally monogamous - but my husband is a pretty mediocre lay, so it's nice to think about.)
And, as Dan recommended, I did make him promise to be monogamous and faithful, I wasn't sure why I even bothered. He agreed, and I'm 150% sure he's already cheated on me again. But whatever. It is what it is. My only advice: Unless you are gathering evidence for a divorce (in my state it doesn't matter), don't go looking through his stuff - his phone, his desk, his computer. It's just going to make you angry and irritated, whether you find anything or not, and it just wastes your time. Sure, if you do it, forgive yourself and go on with your day. But really try to take the high road. Just because he's a scumbag doesn't mean you have to be a scumbag. You are a mother and a human being, and deserve the peace of mind that comes from being a good person temporarily stuck in a difficult situation.
Good luck!
I'm a little surprised at how many people are making sex the sole foundation of a relationship. This comment from nocutename particularly struck me as reductive and assumptive: "This is a relationship that has been sitting not on a strong foundation, but on quicksand."
Having this baby or not will make a huge difference to her ability to care for her family as a single parent and to remain sane while doing so.
Seriously, the idea that he's been wonderful while deceitful is a fantasy. I can guarantee you all sorts of mischief has gone on while trying to live his hidden life. And most importantly, I guarantee you that he's been stealing energy from his primary relationship for years; energy that could have further solidified the bond.
That is not to say that I don't think non-monogamous relationships can work. I've been in a triad. I've done the poly thing. But this isn't about sex, it's about honesty. The core of any relationship that intimate, where I share a bed and finances and everything else...is trust and honesty. If he can't do that, I couldn't live with him.
DTMFA...and it will hurt like hell, and life will be difficult. But there's no fantasy, now that you know, where that isn't the case.
DTMFA.
I'm so sorry he treats you badly. Do you mean that he makes insulting comparisons between you and these other women? I'm surprised you still consider him a friend and are willing to have sex with him. Why not just call yourselves co-habitating co-parents, and then ask him to watch the kid a couple of nights a week so you can date other men?
That said, STIs can cause complications with pregnancy so if you want to have sex with the asshat, please use a condom. There's nothing wrong with having sex with an asshat, as long as you realize he's an asshat and that he will likely continue being an asshat. I mean, he's your husband, he's cheated on you, you're horny, if you can separate the asshattery, have sex with him and don't feel obligated to stay with him just because you wanted sexy times. Maybe some people would disagree with me, but if you're up front like "This doesn't mean we're going to stay together" I don't see an issue. Just use a condom. :P
The idea that one should set their expectations so through the floor is sad, but not uncommon or surprising.
@107: "to know you just want to troll about your hydrocephalic intellect..."
While the "you can't judge!!" attitude is unimaginative /unconstructive, this is no better. It's not outright trolling, being more respectful wouldn't hurt.
Sounds like this woman is making the best out of her story. They have a child together. A toddler. Except when asleep, a toddler needs total care/ vigilance. They wonder off, touch things, put things in their mouths, fall off things, spill things; you get the picture?
Situation will change as the child grows. Not a perfect family dynamic for the mother. So, what else is new?
Second, whatever good qualities he may have had, he sounds incredibly selfish by constantly fucking other women, and not just 1 ex, but multiple mistresses that he has acquired all while being involved with you. Divorce proceedings can offer an asshole all manner of ways to fuck with your life. He may be able to assert parental rights, which would require you to live in proximity to him. He could have legal papers served to you at times designed to make you miserable (e.g. getting served with legal action on your birthday). He could start earning money under the table to reduce the amount of money he has to pay in child support unless you take him to court.
If you lawyer up now, you can know the full range of options now and most importantly, what options will have the best outcomes for you and your children (e.g. parental rights and child support are entirely on your terms).
So sorry that this is happening to you. Best wishes.
I'm going with option B. I kind of think that's best for this lady, too, based on the letter. She is going to be super horny and physically vulnerable for the next seven months, and then won't get any sleep for the next three to six months. What a lousy time to go through a divorce! If she can just focus on other things, and her husband can try to not be an absolute jerk, she'll be in a better position to thrive by spring 2016.
If the worst thing that happens in your life is a cheating husband, it's not a bad life. You just can't let it mess with you more than absolutely necessary while you plan a better life.
For your sake, I seriously hope he has a great life insurance policy so he can suffer a slow, agonizing death in the near future and still leave you and your kids financially secure.
I think all posters would respect and support her decision on to handle her pregnancy..
It's a lot of work the first few years, and a burden more easily shouldered by two parents than one - there is no dispute there. But aside from you, everyone giving that advice seems to be thinking of the tie they think that cuts. And you seem to be envisioning a breakup where she ends up with full custody.
Messynessy has made a choice which works for her; many wouldn't be willing to put up with what she's putting up with; others would say that her life is better than several alternatives they can imagine.
Michael LC@121 says many people, me among them, are "making sex the sole foundation of a relationship." I'm not. My reaction, which he calls "reductive and assumptive" is that the lw's bf has been misrepresenting himself, lying, and cheating throughout their relationship, which means that the entire relationship, which one hopes would be based on truthfulness and honesty, and involve mutual trust, is from MFAC's perspective, a total mirage. What she thought was underpinning it is not there at all. That isn't about sex.
EricaP: sometimes I don't think you're all that in touch with the other 99%. When you say to Messynessy, as you do @125: "' I'm surprised you still consider him a friend and are willing to have sex with him. Why not just call yourselves co-habitating co-parents, and then ask him to watch the kid a couple of nights a week so you can date other men?" I wonder how you think most people conduct their lives.
You were responding to Messynessy's post @120, in which she said: "I've never cheated on anyone before, and having a toddler in tow doesn't make that any more inviting, but if the opportunity presents itself, I've given myself permission to go for it. (Realistically, it won't happen - I'm naturally monogamous . . .)" So she said she is monogamous by nature and thus knows she wouldn't want to have sex with someone else while she's married to her husband. She also said that she thinks having a toddler around makes this impractical.
Your suggestion was that she ask her husband for a couple of nights a week off during which he watches the two-year-old so she can date. It doesn't sound as if you're aware how unusual that would be to most people.
It certainly doesn't sound as though this couple has considered opening their marriage, and from what I know of many, it's entirely possible that a cheating spouse may still be jealous and not like the idea of his wife wanting to date. Plus, the woman may not want to have two nights a week routinely away from her two-year-old. She may want a break occasionally or even regularly, but I think it's possible that she would balk at this suggestion as much as I suspect her husband would.
While you seem to have successfully opened your marriage, you seem to not realize how many people don't or can't or don't want to respond to infidelity by opening up their own. Maybe Messynessy would prefer that her husband wanted to honor his monogamous commitment, or maybe she wants to keep the dynamic of an intact family--with mommy and daddy both there at home most nights--for her child.
My point about limited resources of time, energy, and money and the limits imposed by the laws of physics (can't be in two places at the same time) have nothing to do with the couple splitting up or not--they exist whether the couple stays together or breaks up. Only so much. I'm not arguing for everyone who gets pregnant a third time to terminate the pregnancy--I'm just being realistic about how each additional child, no matter how loved or wanted, no matter the the nature and quality of the relationship between that child's parents, has less of the parental resources of time, energy, and money and the constraints imposed by the laws of physics.
I wouldn't recommend couples therapy to either partners in this ordeal unless both make an decision to their personal self that they need help, and want to change their behavior, and are committed in dealing with the rough ahead in couples therapy.
The cheating partner doesn't appear he wants to change from the scintilla that I read. He got caught after seven years or more of sleeping with around 3 women at a time, besides it appears carrying on romantic and emotional relationships with all the women he was having affairs with.. He is probably more angry with his former BFF, for telling his partner besides ironically trusting his Best Friend Forever with the knowledge about his infidelities..
My guess is that if the cheating partner goes into couples therapy to one on one therapy with the intent to salvage his relationship with the LW.. He will just learn how to deceive his partner better and know how to placate her suspicions as he goes back to his routine that he created for seven years.
The LW can't kick her partner to the curb. She has to work with him and make peace with him. They have to find some sort of arrangement whether they stay together or split as a couple to help raise their children... I think for her own mental and behavioral health, she should stop having a emotional and physical relationship with him. However they still have to find a way to give and take in helping raising their children..
I don't see this guy changing. He was caught. Much like Tiger Woods, the cheating partner can go to "Caught Hab" as penance, but I doubt any therapy will do much good on him. He really has to make an effort and a promise to himself to change if therapy will work..
@146: "all the nonparents (some of whom have expressed hostility toward the notion of parenthood in the past"
You are really being ridiculous with the assumption that being horrified by the idea of her having another kid with this cad who already doesn't spend enough time at home means that we hate parents and the idea children.
Do some soul searching and find your own terms. Whatever it involves, even if it involves sex, never let him have your heart again. Not because of the cheating, but because of the lying. And every night, when you kiss your kids goodnight, be thankful that you have them. At 39, they could be your last. I'm 40 looking at 6 lost babies from miscarriages even after IVF and a nightmare story about foster adoption.
So sorry for your pain.
I wouldn't be surprise that the LW was "the other woman" for many years, or the cheating partner's ex thought the LW was "the other woman"..
This energy, of being with ones kids and enjoying the ride( and pulling your hair out at the work), is much more important than where your dick of a man has put his penis. Of course, that this man has wasted the LWs time, and heart energy is total cad behaviour.
A woman, a mother, soon learns that a man can be a freakshow around the work of children. And this fucker has been one before the kids, as well.
Men, Hanging on to their boyhoods, as long as they can.
nocutename, when I see that divorce rates go down during recessions, I don't assume that those people are happily married. I assume they're living as co-parents and housemates, because they can't afford to set up separate households. And I assume that many of them are dating other people, not their official spouse. You think that's incorrect?
https://news.marquette.edu/news-releases…
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chip-conle…
I think that reading Savage Love gives us a skewed perception of society in general, and then I think the fact that you are in an open marriage and that you have found a social group within the poly/swinger/whatever is outside the norm community also skews your perception.
"http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/05/0…
"The double-dip recession is fuelling the rapid growth of cheating websites, as thousands of unhappy spouses say they are unable to afford separation."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/articl…
I know it happens, but it's still not terribly common.
Soberly reconsidering my comment upthread, I think Ubiquitous Dickery would also be a great name for a professor at Hogwarts. Someone crusty and old-fashioned, the type who wears a collar and tie when playing sports, but whose past hides a dark and shameful secret. (This is all in reference to an expression speakeasy used @115 which I thought was fantastic, in case anyone is wondering.)
I'm pretty adaptable, but I just can't imagine how that fits into an ongoing, non-abusive relationship.
But Dan and many advice columnists say that if one partner has a one-night-stand, and is sure they won't slip up again because they regret it so much, the kind thing to do is to keep that to yourself.
Dan also says that porn-users married to porn-haters should pretend they don't use porn, even lying about their porn use if asked directly. And the porn-haters should pretend to believe them.
I think lying is complicated, and can reveal a variety of things going on -- often a desire to preserve the relationship and not to be seen as a bad person. I don't know how you get "contempt" from that, except that our culture says so.
Abuse comes in all shades.
Not an ideal situation, a compromise.
Personally, I've found that the most monogamous have no problem stopping sex after being cheated on. Those who still want sex with their partners are usually open to looking elsewhere as well.
Sorry it's been a tough year.
The contempt comes from believing you have a right to risk your partner's feelings and trust in pursuit of your own pleasure. Your partner's quite reasonable and predictable pain is not as important as your leisure activities. That's contempt. Furthermore, you believe your partner is daft enough and unimportant enough to be tricked. Repeatedly. That's contempt.
"Lying...can reveal...a desire to preserve the relationship and not be seen as a bad person." Your point? Stashing a body can reveal a desire to preserve one's standing in society and not be seen as a criminal.
So if a porn-user lies to his wife, consistently, to spare her pain (and have his fun), does that show his contempt for her?
If a one-time cheater lies to his wife for the rest of their marriage, as Dan advises, does that show his contempt for her?
If a cross-dresser hides his cross-dressing and only does it in hotels so his wife doesn't find out, does that show his contempt for her?
If an spanking-fetishist hires a dominatrix to give him regular, secret spankings, to preserve his marriage and not be seen as a bad person, does that show his contempt for his wife?
Look, I'm rabidly against cheating -- but mainly because the spouse at home faces a real risk of catching STIs. Not because of the lies themselves. Lies aren't great ... and they get in the way of intimacy ... and maybe the spanking-fetishist and the cross-dresser and the porn-user should find ways to communicate with their wives about their needs and build up that marital intimacy. But until they're emotionally ready to do so, I don't think those lies demonstrate that they hold their wives in contempt. Unless you define contempt as "lying."
Odds of him going for this may be slim, but you never know.
His whole behavior signals contempt.
I think you're stretching things past their breaking point to compare lying about watching porn or lying about cross-dressing in hotels--even, perhaps, lying about taking secret motorcycle rides to lying about having multiple affairs for the entire duration of a relationship that MFAC thought was monogamous--through 7 years and two kids and one on the way. It's such a difference of degree that I think it qualifies as a difference of kind.
I also think it's interesgting that your biggest objection to lying about affairs is a concern about exposure to STIs. I mean, not to minimize the impact of some STIs, but many can be cured with medication or are mostly socially embarrassing. To me, and it sure sounds like to MFAC, and a bunch of other people, the far greater issue is the fact that MFAC now feels she has been living a lie for close to a decade, that the man she thought she knew is someone else entirely, someone who could disregard her feelings so callously. She describes this discovery and the subsequent feelings of betrayal as a "nightmare" and their life together as a "farce." She never once mentions a concern that she may have been exposed to an STI.
You seem to have removed all emotion from the situation. It feels as if you have an agenda--you think that what worked for you would work for most people--but I think if that's the case, you're going about it wrong by appearing to disregard people's emotional response. I don't think what has worked for you could work for me, and it sure doesn't sound like it could work for MFAC based on her letter. Her boyfriend's treatment of her reeks of contempt.
@174 Nocute - Most women don't stay with a guy who cheats on them, so we're already talking about a minority pool. MFAC is in a bad situation but leaving is not always the best decision. Likewise messynessy is naturally monogamous but is sleeping with a non monogamous person and likes thinking about meeting another attractive guy, so
1) You can't really compare them to the average woman's situation.
2) All reasonable opinions are valid. Normal is not the same as reasonable. I'd like to hear more about why it would be unreasonable for messynessy to ask her husband to take the kids a few nights a week so she could go out to meet people, or on dates. I also think we don't know enough to say it's unreasonable for MFAC to stay. If it was easy for her to leave, that would be ideal, but she's writing to Dan because it's not an easy choice.
So if that lied-to partner got tested and there was no STI, would you say, "hey, all's well that end's well--no infection! The lie qua a lie is no biggie."?
But, yes, aside from the STIs I don’t really see a difference between lying about secret affairs, secret cam sessions, secret spankings, secret crossdressing, secret porn use, or secret motorcycle rides. In each case, the reason for the secret is because Liar very much wants this activity involving their own body, but thinks that Lied-To would get mad and maybe leave if they found out about it.
The difference with affairs is that Lied-To’s health is involved (through the risk of STIs). A Liar who is really in a sexless marriage (no sex at all) and has affairs is much like the Liar who secretly gets spanked. No STI risk means no big difference.
So, @181, I agree that MFAC’s partner is a much bigger jerk than a secret porn user. Because of the STI risk.
But people like LateBloomer and Ricardo are saying that all ongoing lies make the Liar an evil person who should obviously be dumped.
MFAC’s partner is probably a huge jerk. I haven’t seen MFAC coming into the comments to report on whether he’s a great parent, gives great orgasms, makes great pasta, listens well, provides well for his family... If he doesn't do all those things, then, sure, dump him. But if he’s a prize in every other way than monogamy – then maybe they can work through this.
@184 points out that for some, the transgression is the thrill, and if you don't mind other women, they'll keep trying to find some transgression where they run the risk of looking really bad in your eyes. That's self-destruction in action, and FreedomMuse was right to walk away.
What the hell.
Look, maybe MFAC has weighed all the options, the pros and cons, and has decided to stay--at least for now, at least until after this baby's born and a few years have gone by, but if so, I practically guarantee that the reason has much more to do with economic necessity and with the fear that taking care of three young kids on her own is a daunting prospect, than with the idea that he makes a really good spaghetti carbonara.
Honestly, when you put something like "makes great pasta" or gives great orgasms (something a vibrator can usually do, faster and more efficiently), I think you undermine your entire position.
@190, being a secret crossdresser is somewhat analogous to lying about other things which matter to your spouse. Affairs are special in that they involve the risk of giving your spouse an STI, where secret crossdressing (or secret spankings) won't do that. Didn't I just go over the distinction between cheating and most other kinds of lies @185? The distinction is STIs.
So I guess different people have different responses based on different concerns.
I know she says her guy fell in love with the 25 year old, but he quickly moved on to someone else when the 25 year old wanted monogamy. It doesn't actually sound like he shared much intimacy with them. Anyway, that's not what she talks about, she talks about the fucking.
It's that quality that make LW's BF's lies much worse than your examples. The STD risk is minor compared to that.
True, the lw just says "fucking," but I don't know what point you're making by saying that.
Unless a couple has an explicitly open relationship, sexual fidelity is the marker that distinguishes this relationship, demarcates it from all others: friends, relatives, colleagues, acquaintances. The sexual aspect of a relationship between two people who live together, raise children together, and love each other is presumed to be predicated on that love. In addition to great orgasms, it establishes and helps to foster an intimacy between those two people beyond what they have with anyone else.
Your seeming inability to comprehend why this would be such a big deal to this woman beyond the concern that she may have been exposed to an STI is kind of bizarre.
"The 25-year-old woman cut off contact with him, and he felt rejected, so he found a 26-year-old woman and started fucking her every week."
He appear to be far more concerned about the extra-relationship entanglements than his primary relationship.