@301 I do not think that most men cheat, nor did I say that. I do think it's within the normal range of male behavior, which is why I said it was normal.

It is normal for a 11-year-old girl to start her period -- even though the majority of girls won't start at 11. It is normal to go to a 4-year college, even though most people don't go to one. It is normal to experience postpartum depression even though most mothers don't experience it.

Erica, menstruation and postpartum depression are decisions made for a person by their biology outside of their ability to control. Fucking five women when you should be at home helping the mother of your children is not so much.

These comparisons you make here are not succeeding at giving sympathy to the man, nor are they anywhere near laughable at trying to pretend that this guy is "born that way" versus nurture and him making the selfish decisions by his own self.

@302 Bulldog! You are either saying normal as 1) "the norm" or as 2) normal, acceptable behavior. Most people don't do it, and most people think it's bad behavior.

I agree it's among the normal range of human behavior, along with stealing, raping, killing, throwing punches, etc. Some people really hate cheating, some people can tolerate it, and some people believe they deserve to be with a cheater... the same could be said of the rest of these bad behaviors, but I wouldn't call them normal.

Right, I expect sociopaths and psychopaths as well, but within human norms doesn't mean that something is subjectively right action. I won't even bother suggesting "social norms" as theres plenty sleazy acceptable in society and there's plenty yet to get accepted in mainstream society that needs to be.

I’m with EricaP on this one. I understood her perfectly the first time around.

Stealing and throwing punches are often (not always) antisocial and are usually (not always) not the absolute best way of dealing with a situation, but I wouldn’t necessarily pathologize someone who does them. There are definitely subcultures where throwing punches is not only ‘within the normal range of human behaviour’ but also ‘the norm.’ (My ex MIL waxed nostalgically and unironically about the good old days of Christmas past when the house would be full, the men would get drunk and the police would be called.)

Even when cheating is considered to be normal male behaviour, it’s also considered normal female behaviour to get really pissed off about it. Bill Clinton was well known not to bother even trying to keep it in his pants and we all imagined the dressings-down he must have earned at home when he was particularly indiscreet. I think of Bill as within the normal range of human behaviour, certainly well within the norms for a politician or performer. I think of Hillary as pragmatic and owning her own emotions. I don’t think I’m the only one. I can’t be — if everyone around them considered him to be garbage or her to be a pathetic victim, neither would have had the careers they did.

Right, psychopaths are what we would predict given what we know about evolution, social behaviour and the adaptiveness of variability within a population. So that’s why we call them antisocial and lock them up when their behaviour becomes dangerous but it doesn’t make much sense to call them ‘evil’ as if they were channelling some supernatural force.

Rape is something we expect in wartime given what we know about humans and war. That doesn't make it a good thing, that makes it something to have a plan for dealing with before it happens. Because a rape problem is a normal problem to have in those circumstances.

@nocute -- Well played, you bickwitous dickaree, you.

@305, is anyone claiming the guy's actions are "subjectively right"?

@309: Why else appeal to them being "normalized" in society and try to appeal to the historical practice of keeping mistresses?

I don't think we're calling him "evil", I use garbage to represent the continued act, I have no clue how or if that can be salvaged or if he could be trusted in the short to long term. It's a short letter, there's still some ambiguity. But he's not entitled to respect or sympathy from readers.

@310 I don't think his actions were good or moral or justified or okay or "subjectively right." I think they were bad and cruel. I just think they might be forgivable, for someone who knew the guy well and loved him.

It's a weird one, cheating. The men of my father's generation, took it as some sort of given. Then, those times- the wife was usually dependent, along with the children. And divorce really was not accepted that well.
It would have been a deal breaker in my marriage. Maybe because my father had been one. I wasn't gonna cop that.
Then, with my dad, I can understand his behaviour. My mother was sexually repressed.
I don't think cheating per se is the end of the world. If it's owned to. If it can lead to honest healing.
This guy, though. No. He has violated the contract from day one.

If he's a responsible co-parent, and you feel like staying with him because of that, no judgements here. Taking care of small children SUCKS. It sucks so hard. It's boring, frustrating, and exhausting. Having another adult--even an imperfect adult--in the house and willing to help you is nothing to sneeze at.

If he's willing to stick around and help--and he does actually help, he doesn't just sit around playing video games--and you want to take that help, then do it and don't feel like you're doing something wrong.

Sincerely,
Another mom

@ 293 undead ayn rand - No. That seems to be about the cheating. Like I said, there is no indication that she had any pre-existing qualms with his character or has any at this point other than his cheating. On the contrary, her letter makes it seem like she otherwise loves him. She doesn't provide a single other reason or factor that might cause her to want to leave.

@297/lavagirl - I think you missed the point I was trying to make. I was saying that cheaters, like addicts, lie to cover up and to unsure their ability to continue doing their primary failing (which is the cheating or using). That they lie in the service of that failing does not mean they are pathological liars who can't be trusted. Once addicts quit their addiction, they are no more likely to lie than anyone else. Likewise, if this husband were relieved of the necessity to lie about cheating (or if he were a little better at monogamy) he might otherwise be an honest person. And, if this wife keeps him around, and she can look past his lies about his inevitable cheating, he might be otherwise trustworthy.

Alison - I don't know what understanding Bill and Hilary had. Was it cheating? From that event, I gathered only that Bill was romantically inept with at least 1 intern.

Non monogamy can work well if the primary couple is happy with their understanding. Being cheated on only makes cuckquean's happy though.. usually only if they are informed so that it's not really cheating.

If she could learn to date again it could help both her happiness with her sex life and her husband may enjoy her new skills too.

How hot is hubby's best friend?

BrentB, this guy lied from day ONE to this woman.. Not cheated a couple of times and then has owned up to it. Cheated since the beginning of their relationship .. This is a serious, serious breach of trust.
You know that feeling. Trust. Hard one to re establish after such a major failing..
I'm a mother. I know what compromise is about, to keep a family together. So yes, maybe. Maybe. Maybe.
This guy needs to grow the fuck up real fast. Do therapy to see why he hAs behaved so dishonestly. Do it for his children. Do it for his self respect.

Good plan, Philo. The friend.

" I was saying that cheaters, like addicts, lie to cover up and to unsure their ability to continue doing their primary failing (which is the cheating or using). That they lie in the service of that failing does not mean they are pathological liars who can't be trusted. Once addicts quit their addiction, they are no more likely to lie than anyone else."

An addict is an addict and one can rarely take them at their word. That's a valid analogy, but an unwise conclusion.

I'm amazed this guy was able to keep it under wraps so well, only to be dimed out by his best friend. I suspect she had a healthy amount of blinders on (not to put any of it on her).

I think it also really matters why/how this guy was cheating. Like, fucking other people does not necessarily mean he can't be 1) a good father 2) an emotionally supportive partner. It seems like he has no problem preventing his dalliances to leak into your family life. Ultimately the meaning/value of 'cheating' is something you get to decide for yourself. If you were nonthewiser all along and satisfied with your relationship with him, well, you can still be satisfied with your life going forward. Lots of people are in 'interesting' relationships that outsiders might not understand... but however you slice it, you have options.

"fucking other people does not necessarily mean he can't be 1) a good father 2) an emotionally supportive partner."

Immense breaches of trust necessarily prevent him from being an emotionally supportive partner, though. Just giving the illusion of such.