Comments

100
Sati, I never do. I read the question and Dan's answer. Then I post my answer. Then I go back and read the comments.
There will always be overlap. Each person's perspective, is different.
101
All these factors:

(1) The set-up of "Don't be paranoid like my ex" designed to head off any questions. @9 nailed it. "All my exes were psycho paranoid, so any question regarding my fidelity is paranoia" is a set-up every bit as much as "All my exes cheated on me, ergo I am justified in being psycho-paranoid about your fidelity."

(2) Deflection to make it all about her snooping once he's caught. I don't buy that snooping is the real issue any more than I buy that the issue was SAWN's tone a week ago.

(3) Going to great lengths to work around getting caught by using alternate phones and numbers. Joining the chorus @9, @17, @44, @77--he was talking to the other woman THROUGH her mother's landline, durrrrrr.

(4) Vehement breast-beating about the evils of cheating and how he would never do it. The lady doth protest too much.

(5) The explicitly sexual nature of the protracted message to the other woman. Seriously, I manage to tell the barista I want a venti quad skinny vanilla and that I like her top, I don't go on extensively in graphic detail about the sex I'd like to have. There's people in line who also need caffeine, who has the time?

Seriously, there is no way to interpret this other than he's cheating and she's being gaslighted for her reasonable suspicion. Lay off the advice while on cold medicine, Dan.
102
I've been this woman, almost exactly. Here are my thoughts.

Snooping did absolutely nothing positive for me. It made me angry, anxious, irrational, unloving, manipulative, untrustworthy, at times mean, and incredibly insecure. If my relationship wasn't doing poorly before all those adjectives, it certainly was afterwards...and it was largely my fault. Furthermore, like you, I didn't dump him even after gaining evidence. All I did was prolong a period of agony for myself and push my boyfriend further away. I convinced myself it was ok not to leave him, because if I accumulated enough evidence, he would be shamed into stopping; he never stopped. I did exactly what you are doing: I caused myself misery today in order to try to avoid misery tomorrow. It's not worth it.

No matter what you choose to do with your husband, refraining from snooping – on him or any future partner – must be part of your decision. Forget about him: snooping does *you* absolutely no good.

As to your marriage, if you want it to continue, you and he have to find a way to regain trust. You have to be honest about what that will take for you both. His word is clearly not good enough for you since you continue to snoop. And your word to stop snooping will not be good enough for him. You have to be honest with what you each can actually deliver. You might be unable to stop from snooping completely. He may be unable to stop from flirting completely. Discuss whether each of you can bend a little on these, whether you can compromise. Be honest with yourself; if you know you will not leave him over this, then maybe you should just let him have it. If you will leave him over this, then just go; he won't change.
103
@96 -- Can you show me where anyone said that a person should base their self-worth on outside validation? Me, I wrote @90 about getting "a bit of unconsummated validation" on the side--as we all like to do--but that's about it. Perhaps you meant to respond to someone else?
104
Sati @98 "If the balance of the relationship is positive, if we enjoy spending time together and laugh and love and talk and have great sex lives, I don't need to know that there are times when he wishes I'd lose fifteen pounds or that he sometimes fantasises about his boss or that he occasionally exchanges flirty texts with his ex."

Wise words.

105
@103 Maybe I misread. And yeah I get wanting outside validation but I think too many people take it to far. I have no issue with flirting but when you're sneaking around and lying about well that strikes me as being more that just wanting someone to notice you.
106
@101: "(4) Vehement breast-beating about the evils of cheating and how he would never do it. The lady doth protest too much."

Yeah, along with "I WOULD NEVER HIT YOU", hoo doggies.

@72: "Surely if he had actually texted that he wanted to do these things with this woman, that LW would have called him out on exactly that in the letter?"

Did you not notice the next part of the sentence?

You read it wrong. She was referring to the same woman.
"But isn't it just as wrong to send a long text full of descriptions of desired sexual activities to another woman, one he has always said was nothing more than a friend? "
107
He's having phone sex with her, but he's not fucking her. Yet. Keep snooping and he will.

It's that simple. Really.
108
This was me four years ago and I took this exact advice. I rounded down the suspicious texts to flirtation. Two years later my husband was suicidal and in dealing with that I found out that I had a newborn stepdaughter. The next year was hell, but we worked things out and now I love my life, our relationship, and my step daughter. In the end though the cheating was never the problem. It was a symptom of our inability to communicate on the important things - Me feeling like I had to snoop. Him responding with anger to end uncomfortable conversations. The little lies from both of us. Those were the real problems.
109
um no, Dan. LW, DTMFA. and then get thee to a therapist. y'all are both fuckin up. stop making yourself miserable. if you're both lying to each other all the time--what kind of marriage is that?
110
@80: Quoting from the original letter: "I, asshole that I am, continued to snoop."

QED.
111
@85: Thank you for sharing your story. It really helps to show things from the other side.
112
@107: "Keep snooping and he will."

Also don't keep snooping and he will.
113
I have a question. The problematic text was a "long list of desired sexual activities" but LW doesn't say whether that list was sexual activities WITH the other woman or a list of stuff he wants to try in general, likely with his wife.

I have a close guy friend (and we know each other's families!) where we talk about sexy stuff and what we like to do with our respective partners. We are not in anyway involved with each other.

If husband has a female friend of that sort, I can see the text being not what the wife thinks.

If it was in the context of wanting to do them TO the woman, LW had reason to ask him to discontinue his relationship. However, I abhor insecurity, mistrusting behavior, snooping, and trying to use jealousy as the sole basis to change external situations. Stop snooping. Get some therapy to address the compulsion/jealousy/insecurity - in the end it will threaten your marriage far more than racy texts.
114
@113: the letter reads "descriptions of desired sexual activities to another woman, one he has always said was nothing more than a friend?"

It is not THAT strange to discuss sex with a friend, it calls out that he WANTS these actions and nowhere is his wife mentioned. That's why its brought up that he claims the woman is "just a friend". If he wasn't describing the sex acts he wants in detail , and was clarifying the sex he has with his wife, the statement would have been framed way differently by both the guy and the LW. Maybe she's stating it in a way that didn't occur, maybe she's "crazy", but I'd rather use the words she presents us.

On top of him having a history of not just phone-cheating on prior wife, I can understand the paranoia over his current and likely past dishonesty.
115
That's how I read that too. Nothing in this letter indicates that the text regarding sex was about sex with the other woman - just that they are explicit and sexual. Talking about sex isn't having sex.
116
Lots of people here seem absolutely convinced they know whether LW's husband is cheating, even though LW herself isn't sure. Can you psychics give me tomorrow's lottery numbers while you're at it? He might be cheating; he might be flirting. This woman may be the confidante to whom he takes his marriage problems, and is thus, ironically, the person responsible for keeping LW's marriage together. Or he's a gaslighting CPOS. Either is possible and if he won't admit to cheating then we're just as in the dark as LW is. All we DO know is that LW is behaving in a way that she herself knows is wrong, and which is only making things worse. She needs to either decide to trust him or decide to dump him, and risk that whichever decision she makes may be wrong in retrospect. And she needs to work out her own issues so she can be someone worth being in a relationship with.
117
@116: "And she needs to work out her own issues so she can be someone worth being in a relationship with."

TBH, the issues often do get a lot easier to manage once you drop the person who makes you feel this nuts. Being in an untenable situation that you should've gotten out of is why the "snooping" can occur. It's shitty and should NOT continue, but it's not the crux of their issues.
118
@115: Describing sexual fantasies in detail with someone who's not your partner is generally frowned upon in a monogamous relationship. It's also not a great sign when the partner has a stated history of infidelity in previous committed relationships. It's not that much of a stretch to imagine that this lady has been getting weird signs and notices before she took the dumb route around confirming his actions.
119
Lol - people on "savage love" condemning someone for having explicit sexual conversations with a (probably) platonic friend

Does no one see the irony here? We have explicit discussions about sex in this very comment board and we don't even know each other.
120
@119: It's all contextual, really. We're all judging this based on our impressions on snippets of someone's life. There are some scenarios where discussing sex acts one would like performed on oneself would be looked down on, even if I might with a friend. Honestly, the older I get the less I need to or want to discuss with friends. I'm married, I'd rather chat with my partner directly than (assuming the best scenario) complain to someone about what my partner won't do to me in any amount of detail.
121
Here is also a scene where we will not encounter each other IRL (Seattle slog meetups notwithstanding) and talking one on one, plus having a social relationship with the person's family does sort of make the discussions more intimate and personal.
122
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