Re: LW 1
I've always wondered if straight guys know that they basically can get NSA blow jobs on demand from horny gay guys, no questions asked. Most just seem oblivious.

Clever references in the first answer, but the last letter is much more interesting if it's a cross-orientational crush (not absolutely the case with a male LW, but plausible).

The chances that LW#1's wife will be cool with him paying for a BJ or getting one from a random gay man on Craigslist is close to zero. If he suggests it, even if he then pretends he is joking, his wife with know he isn't joking and it will raise her suspicion. The last thing you need when looking for marital extra-cirrculars is a spouse with heightened antenna. On the cost-benefit analysis, he needs to pretend he has lost interest in oral and go find it elsewhere.

@1: See, this is why I sometimes wish "rough trade" would make a comeback. Used to be, every red-blooded sailor or construction worker knew just where to hang out on the docks to get service with a smile.

@3; Marital extra- curriculars, Tim.. Heightened antenna?
God. What to do? What. to. do.
Pity you can't suck it up, LW.1.
That would solve your problem.

LW2; what a tosser, your bf sounds. Agree with Dan. Kick this useless fucker
To the curb.
Fallen off the wagon? He's a problem drinker as well as a lousy fuck?
More reasons to put on those walking boots.
Oh. Seeing you're so handy with the blow jobs and all. While you're looking round for a real stud, LW1, might wanna catch up with you?
LW2: Sorry. That was uncalled for.
Give this bf of yours , a heave ho.

LW 1 - I dunno, Dan, I think your mail gives you an unrealistic idea about how most people feel about extra-curricular sexual activity. He brings this up with his wife, she's going to go ballistic.

Over in Hax today, there was a guy getting the occasional happy ending massage, and his girlfriend found out. I suggested (in the comments) that they use this upset as an opportunity to talk about their sexual needs and how they are being met, and you would have thought I suggested she shoot herself in the head. Nothing to talk about, he's a scumbag, case closed. What's the matter with me for not being outraged at those poor exploited women and he's going to come home with an STI. And so on.

Any outside contact, including porn, is still seen by most people as a relationship ender, even if all you're doing is thinking about it.

LW4; hard, Eh? Dealing with jealousy. Accepting that one's partner is really a seperate person, who responds to the world totally independent of you.
And you also are a seperate person, doing the same thing. You don't walk past an attractive man and feel an attraction?
Agree with Dan. Just let it burn out, which it will. Cause an attraction not acted on, has no where else to go, than die down.
If you make a scene about it, you risk him putting his mind to it more than he probably already does.
He's not cheating on you by having attractions. Just his human responses. And in a way, not really any of your business.

@7 idk, I know those views are common, but if you can't even reasonably talk to your s.o. about your sexual needs for fear that they will blow up or leave you sounds more like a hostage situation than a partnership. Exposure to that idea from someone she loves and respects will be good. I'm with dan. Use your words.

I'm a little disappointed that Dan didn't call out Pent Up on the fact that he said he can't just go to a sex worker because it has to be "by a person [he] can get to know."

What, is a sex worker just a blowjob vending machine to this guy? Sex workers aren't people that you can get to know, with feelings and hobbies you can talk to about, and it just so happens you patronize their business to meet them in the first place? Does this guy see it as beneath him to be polite and pleasant with everyone who takes his money, or is it just the people who could conceivably provide a service that he's apparently all but willing to risk his marriage over?

What an asshole. Dan, you really should have called him on that.

@7: I read that in Hax too, and agreed with her advice. If the situation was: LW refused to give her boyfriend handjobs, he told her he was going to get handjobs from sex workers and then went and got handjobs from sex workers, no harm no foul. He did it behind her back and then told her to "chill" when she found out. Not the same situation at all.

But yeah, as to today's LW1, he's perfectly within his rights to inform his wife that there are ways to get NSA blowjobs if she won't give them to him, and that that's what he's going to do. He's also perfectly within his rights to stop going down on her, for good. He says it didn't work as a bargaining chip, but it's apt deserts, anyway. Maybe after several months of outright refusal she'll see why he's so upset about what he's missing.

@Lava: I think you're right, we should be able to swap some of the characters from Dan's letters. LW2 and SNUGGLES should swap boyfriends!

Why has your default response to couples going through a sexual rough patch gone to "go fuck someone else"? Just like any other aspect of a committed relationship, it's possible to weather a rough time and get back on track without constantly requiring short-term gratification. Not to mention that plenty of people aren't emotionally equipped to deal with affairs and open relationships, especially when other external stresses are already straining the relationship.

Your advice to LW1 really sucked. I just feel like you aren't trying anymore.

Call me rare, I guess. My husband and I have always talked about our crushes - we just see it as the most sane thing to do. Usually it's just a matter of having fun being into a hot friend or coworker. One time, it was pretty serious; that was an odd experience, but not particularly threatening (partly because the crush's circumstances meant that it was impossible that it would lead to anything). I'm glad we were able to talk about it and be patient with each other's feelings. Not least in that whether you're talking about it or not, it's usually REALLY OBVIOUS when your spouse is nursing a hella crush, and going the lies-and-paranoia route doesn't help anyone.

Apropos of the "at least not physically" in the last letter. What is a nonphysical affair? I always hear about emotional affairs and I don't get the distinction between a non-physically affair and a close friendship.

@15 I'd say an emotional affair is when you start feeling you can confide in and want to spend more time with the new person more than your spouse/primary. Many times its a precursor to an affair or a break up/divorce.

That sounds more like a problem in one's relationship, with the emotional affair being a symptom, at least as far as wanting to spend more time. I don;t see how wanting to confide in someone is the mark of anything beyond friendship. If you had a straight guy that would rather watch football at a bar with his friends, than spend time with his wife, would that count as an emotional affair?

Fan, @11, that could work. Swapping boyfriends. Though, what if there was no chemistry? Matchmaking , it is so fraught.

Calling out LW4 for being possessive and controlling. You're not entitled to know every little thing that goes on your partner's head. What if you ask and he says he doesn't have a crush on this girl? 'When I give him an opportunity to be open'- you sound like you're a lot more threatened and jealous than you admit to yourself, and would disbelieve him if he said he does not have a crush, which, he probably already has said. And really, if the suspicion that he might have a crush is annoying you, how have you deluded yourself that the reality of one will make you feel so super generous and ggg? Get over yourself and drop this subject unless any actual foul play occurs (i.e. cheating etc) to avoid losing a probably decent boyfriend.

1 - Start making wife come great with head. If she already likes coming from head, then "losing interest" and cheating sounds perfect.
2 - Stop going down on him except in recip.
3 - Unless your crushes are on the same people, why would you want to know? Keep your suspicions to yourself, just address any weird behavior.

Edit button!
LW 1's wife must not like coming from head.. That's why stopping the head does nothing. Head can be performed really well, or extremely badly. And a wife who considered head a great part of her sex life but refused recip should be dumped, not cheated on.

I have an issue with the whole "who initiates" view of the world.

In a healthy relationship, I think the couple develops a mode of being together in which either one can signal readiness for sexual touch, through subtle or less subtle means. A wife serving a special dinner with a warm smile can thus be a way of encouraging the man to squeeze her breast in bed that night, which will lead her to turn toward him and handle his cock. Or a man rubbing his wife's shoulders encourages her to put on sexier lingerie than she had otherwise intended, which leads him to press against her ass in bed that night.

So maybe the issue would be more constructively put in other terms. Not "why don't you ever initiate?" but rather "I would love it if you would sometimes grab my ass while we're getting ready for bed." Specific requests... not broad complaints.

@22 I'm building off the Who Gets The Credit letter. Though of course in that particular case I'm with those who don't see what she has to gain by staying with this whiny dude.

But my wife refuses to give me head. Flat-out says no. Won't do it.

And you've been with her for 20 years?

LW1: How long did it take you to figure out your wife wouldn't give head? And you still married her?

LW4: "When I give him an opportunity to be open..." Gee, that doesn't smell like a trap. Seriously, WTF does that even mean? I'm imagining you staring at him intensely and saying things like "I want you to be totally honest with me. Tell me anything." Want your partner to be able to be honest about their crushes without fear of reprisal? Don't fish and then resent them for not taking the bait - that definitely comes off as controlling and possessive. Playful comments like "I think somebody's got a crush on that cute redhead at work...and I can see why!" with ZERO follow up pressure will get you a lot further in the long run.

LW1 : meet some gay guy interested in you and be gracious about it.
LW2 : dump that idiot yesterday.
LW4 : stop asking about this crush, he's not going to tell you about it. Instead, tell him about your next crush, and see how he takes it. He might discover that discussing crushes is not as threatening as he thought.

So..did the wife of LW1 say she'd never perform oral sex or just that she'd never perform oral on her husband? If the answer is never on her husband, then he needs to wash his netherparts more often and stop (or start) ram-fucking her face.

Based on everything I have experienced/ read, I have the most unusual sexual situation.

My girlfriend is 40. She is pretty naive (she went to Margaret Cho concert - as an adult - and "learned a lot of new words."

She is willing to do a wide variety of sexual acts. The idea that she wouldn't perform a sex act, or I for her, is just bizarre to both of us. That's part of being in a relationship. What kind of a selfish asshole won't give oral to their partner of twenty years?

But, to the point: my girlfriend, whom I love dearly: has no interest in toys and no interest in oral or finger stimulation unless I am also visibly aroused. The sole expression of love that she recognizes as a sex act and craves is PIV (or sometimes PIA) sex. She enjoys orgasms and expects them on a semi-regular basis but is mostly euphoric when we have PIV sex and I come. If this doesn't happen, she doesn't consider it sex. She has said a few times that she much prefers being shown that she is wanted (by which she means PIV sex) than having an orgasm.

I enjoy giving oral and she does orgasm from it but she considers it always a prelude. She typically does not "need" clit stimulation or oral to get very wet and ready. I am the only man ever to give her an orgasm by PIV sex. As you can imagine, this is a nice situation for a guy to be in, in some ways, but also a lot of pressure.

Gou Tongzhi, do you want sympathy for the pressure you're under, or admiration, or do you want to hear people's thoughts on your sex life?

@LW2, WGTC
I'm mostly on the side of the LW, but I'd like to post a minor dissent. First of all, initiating is expressing desire to have sex with your partner right now. If he's the only one asking for the ball massages, and she's not offering them or expressing "I want to fuck you right now" in some way (innuendo, verbal, phycial, etc...), then she should try initiating more. If a woman required 20 minutes of warmup, and initiated by asking for that, I think most of Dan's readers would consider that to be "legitimate" initiating, and a completely reasonable request.

That said, I think there are a few major red flags about the boyfriend. The first is the drinking. Few people go sober for completely random reasons. Presumably, his drinking fucked up his life in some way, so he quit. Maybe it's just the stress that's messed with his dick, but it could very well be the drinking. In any case, you both need to take a serious look into the issue. This is probably the root cause. The second problem is the lack of reciprocation. I don't care how depressed you are, or what your substance abuse problems are, or how hard it is for you to get erections, your partners' satisfaction is as important as your own, and he seems to be REALLY selfish at the moment. He's got to snap out of that shit or be sent packing.

@MsP, I guess I just wanted to vent / get my thoughts in order and this seemed like a good place to do it, containing as it does the whole of human sexual experience. Comments are always welcome, though "admiration" would be far from the point as utterly misplaced.

Gou - I'm with EricaP here - what do you want? Your girlfriend to be willing to try toys? To consider the orgasms she gets from oral equivalent to those she gets from PIV?

@29: Uh, thanks for sharing?

Ah, another series of letters that make me glad that I will never have sex again, die alone, and be eaten by my cats.

Gou Tongzhi, I'm curious about your girlfriend's preferences for masturbation. And curious about any interest she may have in dominance/submission. She does seem very invested in your orgasms and I wonder if that could be redirected at all.

Can you let her know that it hurts your feelings when she disparages fun sexual acts as "not really sex"?

EP, you think she is indulging herself by being submissive to me physical pleasure? There is something to that. But it isn't 100% of the picture. In some ways, even though we are extremely close and share a great deal about ourselves and our bodies, her libido is a mystery to me. Sometimes she delights in, even requests, my taking charge and gratifying myself (though she doesn't want to be hit or anything, she seems happy to be held down or have her hair pulled). Other times she wants sex to be about closeness and love, and then any hint of that kind of dominant play is dismissed as "games."

I have said to her before something like, "You know, lots of people consider oral to be sex." Her reply is along the lines of, "Well I don't." And once, "I'm not a lesbian."

LW1 needs to get himself a fleshlight, the kind with a mouth on the business end.

LW#1 I'm a wife that's not all that enthused about giving head (although I do it occasionally) because of some bad experiences as a child. There may be more to it than you know, and if that's the case and she's THAT uncomfortable talking about it, she might need some help. If you haven't tried it already, you might ask her if she'd be more comfortable doing it if you were wearing a condom. Not your first choice, I'm sure, but it's a place to start. I actually like the idea of tossing off "can I get it somewhere else?" during an argument, because it will give her a better idea of how important it is to you. As surprising as it may seem to you, some people don't enjoy oral sex-- (germophobe? past history? why should every variety of wanting something be "normal" and every variety of not wanting to do something be "abnormal"?)--so she may seriously just not get it.

This is life. Not every one of our god damn needs is met, let alone sexual ones. I think Dan should have also said that basically, yes, just suck it up and shut up, providing that generally their sex life is good.
The husband does t even seem to have enquired enough to know why his wife doesn't want to.. Sorry. But every sexual incompatibility is not a reason to cheat. If she says yes, fine- but otherwise I think he needs to shut up.

Re: LW1, I don't have a cock so I can't really know what a BJ feels like, but it sounds like you're darn happy with your life and marriage, so maybe you're just going to live without BJs and be happy for what you do have. I'm guessing there are lots of folks out there who have all the BJs they want, but would would trade positions with you in an instant to have the great, happy life you say you have. Be thankful! Secondly, you've been married for 20 years, which sounds like an eternity, but here's hoping you have another 30-40 to go, which is plenty of time for her to get curious about giving you a BJ. I've been married for about 20 years and have yet to have anal sex with my husband. I just don't want to. Maybe some day...just not there yet. And if he begged me for it, or said he'd have an affair for it, I would be super confused. Do you know WHY she doesn't want to give you head? Does she kiss your dick, even once? Has she ever licked the head, even once? Or does her mouth get nowhere near it? Maybe she thinks that "giving head" requires swallowing, which might freak her out? Who knows? I'd recommend making sure that you're very well man-scaped, that you're always well-showered, and then maybe have some fun with whipped cream or chocolate sauce or some kind of food that she likes. Dribble a little bit there and see what she thinks. Go slowly. Kissing or licking the head, even once, and not feeling pressured into "giving head" may warm her to the idea. And, remember, you have another 30+ years of a very happy marriage together to look forward to. Who knows what she might try once the kids are off to college? Don't beg for it -- you'll sound weak and dumb, like your cock is more important than your family. And don't deny her oral as punishment -- you'll just be manipulative. You should be giving her oral because you want to, not so that you can get oral in return. Just love her regardless of what she will or will not do. It sounds like all the BJ pressure is what's keeping her from doing it. Pressure never helps a woman relax and explore.

I don't know...all the commenters here seem very selfish to me. Would you really dump a 20-year marriage for a lack of head? It just sounds crazy to me.

@Gou Tongzhi, what I actually wonder (and I apologize for overstepping here) is whether she's faking her orgasms. As evidence, I have only the fact that you called her "pretty naive" and that she's generally not interested in oral or manual stimulation except as part of your arousal. Also the fact that many women fake orgasm. That's why I was asking about her masturbation patterns, because that's a moment when her own sexual pleasure takes center stage, and it might be easier to separate what she actually enjoys physically from her love of giving you pleasure (which may, yes, reflect a sexually submissive preference).

Also, if she never masturbates, that's more evidence for her faking orgasm with you, though of course it's not proof of anything.

@Gou Tongshi: It sounds like your girlfriend really needs reassurance that you desire her, and the way she measures that is by your erection. Understandably, sometimes even when you're (the rhetorical "you") doing something that you legitimately enjoy--like going down on her or fingering her--both for its own sake and because you enjoy giving her pleasure, the focus on her as opposed to the focus on you and your cock as well as the lack of direct stimulation to it, and the fact that getting her to orgasm takes some time, means that you're not going to maintain a rock-hard erection the whole time. She is also very, very invested in your exhibition of your masculinity as evidenced by her definition of real sex being limited to her being somehow penetrated by your cock.

So I'd start by teasing apart some of these intertwined things: Does she like the sensation of cunnilingus at all? The comment that she's not a lesbian suggests that she doesn't think it's a "manly activity" and it's worth repeating that it seems clear that she is very, very invested in your exhibition of your masculinity as evidenced by her definition of real sex being limited to her being somehow penetrated by your cock. If she doesn't enjoy the sensation, then first you have to find out if she would like it if you changed techniques. If she likes the sensation but doesn't think that it reflects well on your "manliness" or straight masculinity, then maybe you could find some erotica or porn in which clearly straight, extremely masculine-presenting men eat women and enjoy it. If she thinks that being the recipient of oral sex somehow make her a lesbian, you need to refresh her on the notion that orientation is not about the sex act performed but the desire for whom to perform it on or receive it from.

If she is dismayed by seeing you (temporarily, I'm assuming) lose your erection while you eat her or finger her, reassure her that you're not losing desire for her, and show her how quickly it is restored. Or blindfold her and restrain her (make it part of a sex game; don't tell her it's for this reason), and when she can't tell (by sight or touch) that you're not hard, go down on her, taking brief breathers to tell her how turned on you are and how you are going to ravish her with your cock. Then, after she comes, if she does, or after she seems very excited, take a moment to stroke yourself to full hardness again, before releasing her from the restraints and taking off the blindfold. When she sees evidence of your masculinity and your desire even though you've just been servicing her (in a way that doesn't seem masculine enough for her), perhaps she'll shift her attitude and response.

It's possible she's self-conscious and doesn't like to have the focus be on her. Or she doesn't like the feeling that you're waiting for her to come so you can get what you "really" want. I know I've felt that way with some guys, and it can really inhibit my response. Again, reassure her. Let her know that this is what you want for YOU, because it turns you on so much; not for her because you're trying to give her pleasure. Personally, I find that approach to cunnilingus very, very hot.

Good luck.

I was typing my comment when EricaP's went up, but yes, that's a distinct possibility.
If she hasn't had an orgasm, she might just want to focus on you and yours. She might feel that putting the focus on her is just going to be frustrating or not lead to anything, so why even do anything to take away from she knows will give satisfaction to you (physically) and to her (emotionally and vicariously). She may well be faking to make you happy.

Many women don't need clit stimulation in order to get very wet and ready. I get that way after about 30 seconds of kissing or neck-nibbling. So that data point is sort of irrelevant to the rest. "Wet and ready" is a long way from "on the verge of orgasm." Women get wet (presumably "ready" for penetration) watching videos of animals having sex, but they don't self-report feeling arousal.

I speak as someone who really, really loves penetration, vaginal and anal, and who is disappointed if I'm not penetrated, though I also love being penetrated by fingers or being fisted (vaginally only), so if a hard cock isn't available for those acts, I can still be a very happy woman. I often find that much as I love having my pussy eaten, I need some penetration for to be good--so much of my clitoral tissue is internal. In fact, I've never come from oral without it being accompanied by being digitally penetrated simultaneously. So I understand pulling someone up after he's been eating me for a while (which is driving me crazy--in a good way) and begging/demanding him to fuck me. Maybe she genuinely needs penetration to come. But I am inclined that she needs penetration (for stimulation of internal clitoral tissue) plus external stimulation, and that those orgasms she's been having might be faked.

None of which begins to explain or address her insistence that "real" sex is either PIV or PIA.

@41 I agree. Dump an entire 20 year relationship, that the LW1 says is a great one all because of a hang up on ONE sex act? Not all the sex acts, just one?

As also pointed out. This LW1 is vague about what constitutes a blow job. There are far too many men that think if there is no swallowing then that isn't a "real" blow job. Fuck that noise. Dan has it right on about the definition of a blow job.

What if the wife has a negative association with blow jobs? I was molested at the age of 5 and was raped by way of being forced to give my adult brother a blow job. I don't have issues with it NOW, but fuck anyone who thinks they could tell me I had to get over it in THEIR time frame and not mine.

There is also an assumption that the wife shouldn't be accepting of oral sex given to her. Well, again, not enough information here. My husband would consider that an additional sex act taken away from HIM. Not just me. He enjoys giving oral sex, so it would just be a double "punishment" for him.

No one can have EVERYTHING. This guy has 99% of "it all" and it's not good enough.

Erica and nocute, thanks for the insight. You guys are both always very wise.

No, she is not faking it. I am 100% positive. But the rest of your comments are definitely worth consideration.

@45 - glad you made it past the issues. Not everyone can, including my wife. That leaves me as one of those guys who's wife has valid reasons for not doing certain things that I might like.
But I love her, so I deal with it, because 99% of "it all" is pretty damn good.

@41: It wouldn't have taken me 20 minutes, much less 20 years, to realize that we were sexually incompatible. At this point he's chosen to go without for 20 years, so it couldn't be that big a priority for him.

Yes, she may have some psychological issue relating to the act. If she does, she should have disclosed, and if she did, he should have disclosed. We don't know.

@46, I have a friend who discovered after ten years that her (apparently male) husband is a woman, who now claims to have never enjoyed PIV, despite regular orgasms from the act. So color me unpersuaded by your "100% positive" she's not faking. You can be 100% positive that you yourself aren't faking, but none of us have that kind of access to what goes on in anyone else's head. Still, I know I'm over the line, and I'll be quiet now.

Why does the wife have to have a traumatic incident of abuse in her background to exonerate her distaste (see what I did there?) for giving a blow job? Are people not allowed to want to do what they want to do? Is a blow job more important than a happy marriage and family?

Why does Dan say to this guy, who says in his letter that he's "happily married for 10 years, with the wife for 20 years. We have a good marriage, we're great friends, we have two kids, a good life . . . . Everything else is fine. I don't want an affair,", "Ask the wife if you could get a blowjob elsewhere. She might find the prospect of you getting head from a sex worker (who'll be a drain on your family finances) or some gay dude on Craigslist (who'll do it for free while you watch straight porn on your iPhone) less daunting than the prospect of another spin through the deny/ask/beg cycle. Toss it out in the middle of your next asking/begging argument, and if she reacts badly—"What! Are you serious?!?"—you can tell her you weren't serious. At this stage, there's a good chance she'll say, "I wish you would!" And if that's the case, then... Yahtzee for you," but say, to a woman (Fem Fetish Frosh) who's worried that her boyfriend who confessed that prior to moving in with her he had considered being polyamorous: "One person simply can't be all things to another person—sexually or otherwise—and unmet needs, unfulfilled desires, and unexplored possibilities are prices we pay to be in LTRs. Monogamous, polyamorous, Femdom, or whatever: All coupled people walk around feeling a little unfulfilled. (Single people, too.) Because no one gets everything they want."?

Is it because the second letter from Fem Fetish Frosh is from two-and-a-half years ago and Dan's moving more quickly to the whole "outsource your sexual desire" solution to problems now, whereas he used to tell people that not everybody gets every single one of his/her desires."?

Is it because one of the letters involves a blow job?

@PennyLady
OK, now I understand your stance on blow jobs. You have every reason to consider it as a special act because of your trauma. I agree that when there is such an history, the price of admission to be with a survivor of sexual abuse is to let go of certain sex acts, and let the survivor decide when and if they can be brought back to the menu. I hope your scum of an adult brother was prosecuted for what he did. Peace.

@nocutename
One letter mentions a 20+ marriage with lack of blowjob, the other one a 2+ year relationship with someone who wants to fulfill her partner. I suppose this time difference is why one gets the 'unfulfilled' answer, and the other one the outsourcing answer. Someone in a 20+ marriage should know by now that total fulfillment is not possible.

As EricaP asked in another thread — what’s the real question? Do you need that kind of penis stimulation that badly or are you worried about going to your deathbed without getting a blow job, something that every single other man on the planet experiences regularly?

If it’s a deathbed thing, as EricaP suggested in that other thread maybe it’s time to sit down with your wife and look at your bucket lists. There‘s probably more exciting stuff on there than blowjobs.

@sissoucat (and by the way, welcome back! You were missed): Given the complaint/tone/tactics voiced by the blow-jobless man in the 20+-year marriage, would think that he needed the reminder that total fulfillment is not possible much more than the woman who is worried that her relationship will blow up because her boyfriend has told her that before committing to her, he used to consider the idea that he might enjoy polyamory.

@52 The fact that it IS a 20 year relationship makes the "not everyone get 100% of what they want" advice more relevant, not less. 20 years of happiness should have some meaning. I'm not saying he shouldn't make it clear how desperate he is for this one specific sex act, but he should look at his full basket. Sorry but I get sick of the blow job worship I see sometimes. (And please don't psychoanalyze me. I know you mean well but I've paid professionals for that and what your assuming about me is incorrect.)

@51 That came out harsher that I meant it. I really do thank you for your concern and kindness. And unfortunately, no my bother never paid for his actions. He went on to have 3 daughters of his own. I warned his wife when I was a teen but I was told to fuck off.

Sorry for another message, lol, I feel it needs stating for the record, I love giving blow jobs, ironically my husband is the one who can take them or leave them. It will be something we work in here and there but it's not his favorite. People simply have different sexual likes and dislikes but for some reason the blow job has this special status... For example people saying they are more important than a 20 year old happy marriage.

@PennyLady, I agree with you 100% about the relative importance in a 20 year happy marriage. Now if the lw had said that he is extremely unhappy in his marriage due to a dearth of blow jobs, that would be different. If someone is sexually unsatisfied all the time, that's pretty important in assessing the overall happiness of a marriage. There are always going to be sexual things that you wish could be incorporated into a marriage, but for one reason or another, the likelihood of each person getting exactly every single thing satisfied all the time is close to nil. But to say that everything else is perfect but there's one particular sex act that you wish happened and your spouse isn't up for it . . . well, I don't know. It depends on how that marital happiness is defined and whether a component of that happiness includes general sexual satisfaction.

I am assuming that Pent Up feels otherwise well-satisfied sexually and just wants to add one more act to the menu or to his wife's repertoire, in which case I'd advise him to sing a chorus of "you can't always get what you want." But if the lack of blow jobs translates to real sexual dissatisfaction, that's another story.

And it might be a good idea for him to really accurately communicate his unhappiness to his wife and for them to have a true discussion about it, as opposed to him begging, whining, and threatening and in general acting childish, while she unilaterally shuts the topic down. That doesn't sound like it's a particularly mature communication style and not what you'd hope would be in place after 20 years of marriage, either. (Actually, I believe it's 10 years of marriage, 20 years of coupled-ness.)

I think it's important to point out that Pent Up has a problem that is actually happening to him in real life, and the other LW has a problem that she imagines might happen at some point in the indeterminate future.

The solution to a problem you are actually experiencing right now in real life is "Try to do something about it." The solution to pain caused by imagining a hypothetical situation that might happen at some point in the future but (probably won't) is "Stop imagining it."

I agree that "Get the hell over it" isn't bad advice for Pent Up, but "Talk to the wife about it" seems like a better first solution. If there's a way he can get what he wants without hurting anyone, why not look for it?

There's nothing wrong with looking for compromises before deciding to ignore your own wants. I think people should reexamine what makes them think otherwise. For everyone who thinks Pent Up doesn't get to look for compromise positions, what trait does he have that makes this so?

"Shut up, forget your own preferences, and focus entirely on providing service to your partner" should lose it's spot on the list of go-to advice. The circumstances in which we think that's an okay thing to say should go from one to zero.

@Eudaemonic: Where do you get the idea that "Shut up, forget your own preferences, and focus entirely on providing service to your partner" is on the "list of go-to advice" --at least here on Savage Love?

I don't see it anywhere at all in the preceding 59 comments. Instead, I see people saying that they don't know why the guy married her or that were they the lw, that relationship wouldn't have lasted 20 minutes. True, #s5 and 40 are variations on "suck it up," as are a few others, which point out that the wife might have a traumatic experience in the past that makes her allergic to giving blow jobs, and some of us, myself included, want to know if there is general overall sexual satisfaction or whether the lw is totally unsatisfied before suggesting that the lw and everyone else in a long-term relationship remember/understand that no one ever gets every single thing they want and that perhaps the lw is going to have to let this thing go. All of which are very different from any of us saying "shut up, forget your own preferences, and focus entirely on providing service to your partner."

@59/60: Eudaemonic: Or do you think that "suck it up" translates to "shut up, forget your own preferences, and focus entirely on providing service to your partner."? I interpret "suck it up" to mean "get the hell over it," but if you see it as the former, rather than the latter sentiment, I understand.

For what it's worth, I also said "talk to your spouse (both of you) about it" should be the first tactic.

@60: Everyone in the thread seems to be saying that blowjobs are an inconsequential thing relative to a 20-year relationship... sometimes.

First, some observations:
A. It didn't occur to anyone in the thread to say "look, it's a 20-year relationship, and blowjobs are inconsequential, so the wife should just suck it up and make sure he gets the occasional blowjob."

B. It did occur to plenty of people here to say "look, it's a 20-year relationship, and blowjobs are inconsequential, but only when that means the husband's preferences don't matter."

What are your guesses as to why most of us are comfortable saying the latter, but no one is comfortable saying the former? The belief that blowjobs<<<<20-year relationship either is or isn't true. Either they're inconsequential compared to a 20-year relationship, or they're not.

The hierarchy is not Husband's preferenceshim he should get the hell over his preferences. No one is comfortable telling her she should get the hell over her preferences.

Why is that, do you think?

Full disclosure of facts that ought to be obvious, but are apparently easy to forget: I was born male and not female. I do not believe this event made any of my preferences less important than they would be if I had been born female instead of male. Please try to refrain from implying that my gender makes it okay to rape me.

Note that it is impossible to perpetuate the belief that female preferences are automatically more important than male preferences without saying that I'm fair game for rape. I don't appreciate that any more than you would.

The 5th paragraph didn't come through well, since I'm terrible with HTML.

It should read:
The hierarchy is not Husband's preferences<<him that he should get the hell over his preferences. No one is comfortable telling her she should get the hell over her preferences.

The value of a 20-year relationship is fixed, so if his preferences are less valuable than that, then so are hers.

Wow, the preview function really isn't working for me, and using these <<<< makes it act really funny. Testing.

What I'm trying to say is that the situation cannot be one where his preferences are less important than a 20-year relationship but hers are more important than that relationship. But that seems to be the assumption underpinning the consensus response here.

Huh. We’ve had a lot of discussion here of maintenance sex and taking one for the team and the usual assumption is that in a straight couple it’s usually going to be the woman finding a way to have sex when she’s not that into it. Some people are uncomfortable with the idea, many have done it or do it. So I think that saying that in this forum, preferences only count when they’re expressed by a woman is objectively incorrect.

Sex is one of those things where either you’re both into it or it doesn’t happen. Both parties have a veto. Always. (Otherwise it’s not sex, it’s something else.)

Eudaemonic, say the guy wrote to Dan explaining that he wants to watch his wife rim their poodle but she flat out refuses. He’s happy, they love eachother, they have great sex except for this one thing that she won’t do. Dan says to talk about it, maybe he can outsource the poodle-rimming, maybe monogamy is so important to her that she’ll rim the poodle even though she really REALLY doesn’t want to, maybe she just doesn’t know how important it is to him. There’s discussion in the comment thread about why the wife might not want to rim the poodle; several commenters observed that if watching her rim the poodle was so important to him then it was ridiculous for him to have married someone who wouldn’t do it and he has only himself to blame; one or two people say that the why isn’t important, the important part is that she doesn’t; and speculation about why Dan didn’t include a You Don’t Always Get What You Want proviso in his advice.

Then you come along and say that commenters who feel comfortable advising the husband that he might not get everything he wants and that’s not such a bad deal all things considered are sexist. That if commenters think giving up on the dream of watching his wife rim their poodle shouldn’t be an insurmountable problem, then logically it’s not a problem for the wife to just rim the goddamn poodle already.

It doesn’t logically follow, actually. The ease with which one party can give up on a dream has no correlation whatever with the ease with which the other party can do the dreamed-of thing. None.

Dan often uses this logic wrt monogamy. If sex is SO IMPORTANT that monogamy is essential to a marriage, then how can it be so unimportant that complaining about not having sex is immature and selfish? Conversely, if sex is SO UNIMPORTANT that going without it is nothing to complain about, then why be so insistent on monogamy? This is about deciding what you’re going to do with your own body but not what someone does with theirs. You can decide not to have sex with your life partner but you can’t tell them not to have sex.

What he doesn’t say is that people should have sex that revolts them.

The LW can’t make his wife blow him (or rim their poodle) as part of their sex life if she refuses. He has some choices to make. He can have a mature conversation in which he explains how important it is to him. He can outsource whether his wife likes it or not. He can leave the marriage. He can deal.

The commenters you object to are suggesting that “dealing” doesn’t sound like such a bad option compared to some of his other options, such as losing a marriage he says makes him happy. They aren’t saying it’s easier than giving a blowjob.

Only the wife knows how hard it is for her to give a blowjob. She’ll have a similar set of options when they have that mature conversation.

Does the wife who refuses to give head in Letter #1 give a specific reason to her husband why she refuses? I'm not saying a reason is required, because it isn't, but if I had to guess I would say maybe she refuses because she doesn't think she is any good at it. I avoided it for years because I thought it was gross and unpleasant (and it is a little, but doing it is being GGG) and also because I WAS REALLY LOUSY AT IT (or thought I was). And then an adventurous girlfriend invited me to go with her to a BJ class that was really hilarious and also really useful (we practiced on sterilized silicone dildos, learned the importance of flavored lube, and basically gained a shit-ton of confidence.) I actually initiate this now because it makes me feel like a badass powerful orgasm-granting goddess, and my husband has told me many times over how badass at this little skill I am. CONFIDENCE MAKES ALL THE DIFFERENCE. Maybe that's all she needs.

@65: Oral sex comes standard. Poodle-rimming doesn't, and therefore the two have absolutely nothing in common for these purposes. No one hesitates to tell the husband to do some oral. Check out #20.

"Dan often uses this logic wrt monogamy. If sex is SO IMPORTANT that monogamy is essential to a marriage, then how can it be so unimportant that complaining about not having sex is immature and selfish? Conversely, if sex is SO UNIMPORTANT that going without it is nothing to complain about, then why be so insistent on monogamy?"

This is exactly the logic I'm using. If your sexual preferences are SO IMPORTANT that it's worth blowing up a marriage, then so are your partner's. If I got a sex change tomorrow, the importance of my preferences would not change. I'm not sure why this is so hard to grasp.

Can you imagine a husband who wouldn't perform cunnilingus getting the consideration you're giving the wife here? When this happens, there's a display of really intense hostility to the notion that both parties get a veto to any particular act.

Yeah, I really feel like we need to know more about her reasons for not wanting to give blowjobs.

It's possible she's traumatized or just hates giving them (or, as some people have pointed out, hates giving them to him, which could mean he needs to bathe, or his cum tastes bad, or he insists once you start you have to keep going until he's come (I've had that one. Piece of work.), or he moves when she'd rather he didn't, or his girth is uncomfortable for her mouth.) Or it's none of these things because she's just never tried. We don't even know whether she's tried, which really makes it hard to adjudicate.

I'm super uncomfortable telling people they have to try a sex act they don't want to do before they decide they don't want to do it. My husband didn't used to give me head, had never tried it, and didn't want to. I missed it, but I didn't want to nag, and the idea of him doing it despite finding it revolting was really disturbing to me (and not exactly flattering.) In that case, it resolved because I convinced him to let me give him blowjobs, which he discovered he loved (previous partners had been shit at blowjobs so he thought he didn't like them) and decided he wanted to try to reciprocate. (And, probably, realized he was wrong about head on him, he could be wrong about head on me.) Now it is close to his favorite thing. But not every situation is going to resolve that nicely, and if I'd somehow (how? manipulation? ultimatums? This all sounds coercive and awful.) gotten him to do it against his will, I doubt he would have made the same happy discovery. Hard to enjoy something when it's associated with guilt and resentment.

I suppose it's possible she doesn't know how big of a deal it is*, and would be willing to try if it were honestly and non-manipulatively told to her. But again, we don't have enough info.

*I would scoff at this if I hadn't been at the "Wait, our not having sex is a big deal!?" conversation with said husband. Some people don't get the complaints mean something until it is spelled out to them it might be a dealbreaker.

No one hesitates to tell the husband to do some oral. Check out #20.
Fucking Eud leave me out of it.
Since you didn't, it falls to me to say YOU'RE WRONG AGAIN!
If he wants head, he should get good at giving head so she has some reason to indulge him.
No one has to give head. Some people don't want it, and I don't see why they should be expected to do it. Oral wasn't much a part of my earliest relationships. After someone insisted on learning me that way, things changed.

Eudaemonic, RE cunnilingus: Yes. Even if there were only me, there would be me. I challenge you to find a comment where I directed someone to perform cunnilingus when they didn’t want to.

Oral sex comes standard. Any model that comes without it should be returned to the lot. But he didn’t return it to the lot. He test drove it for ten years, he bought it and ten more years later he’s still happy with his purchase. Clearly he likes other things about the model.

Poodle-rimming doesn’t come standard but if that’s what you need then you keep looking until you find it. If you don’t actually need it then you have choices to make. There are two points to this comparison.
1) She’s the only one who knows how hard it is for her to either rim her poodle or blow her husband, just as he’s the only one who knows how hard it is for him to give these things up.
2) The difficulty of doing without something is unrelated to the difficulty of doing it. Most of us would find poodle-rimming more difficult than a blow job, but that doesn’t imply that doing without would be either particularly hard or particularly easy for our poodle-rimming voyeur.

I’m not in these folk’s heads or bedrooms so I don’t have an opinion about what’s more important than what. What I care about is logic.

What is this "oral comes standard" stuff--as if Dan Savage is on the floor at the Relationship Factory where they assemble interpersonal relationships on a conveyor belt?
People quote Dan like he's god or something, but he's not. Nothing comes "standard": whatever a particular couple works out, either through negotiation or mutual assent or never-articulated agreement, is up to them. I have known plenty of men who didn't go down on women--not their thing--and I can only imagine me putting my hands on my hips and telling them that the great arbiter of all things sex and relationship, Dan Savage, has decreed that they must be willing to go down on me.

For that matter, I don't want oral from someone who's only going to do it because he's been told he "must."

For whatever reason, this couple has gone 20+ years without the wife giving blow jobs. That doesn't invalidate this marriage. If the lw wants one, he can explain why it is so important to him and she can explain why she hasn't done it thus far. Then they go from there. But for us--or him--to say to her, "Dan Savage says oral comes standard, so get with the program" is absurd.

@62: "Full disclosure of facts that ought to be obvious, but are apparently easy to forget: I was born male and not female. I do not believe this event made any of my preferences less important than they would be if I had been born female instead of male. Please try to refrain from implying that my gender makes it okay to rape me.

Note that it is impossible to perpetuate the belief that female preferences are automatically more important than male preferences without saying that I'm fair game for rape. I don't appreciate that any more than you would."
Eudaemonic, please show me where in my post @60 which is what you were responding to @62 I said anything about it being okay to rape you.

nocutename @71, I believe "oral comes standard" is shorthand for "I'm not going to have to try very hard to find a partner who will happily participate in oral with me." Just like PIV for straight couples -- it has become part of the normal set of activities, unlike poodle rimming or mummification or golden showers.

Of course, a couple is able to negotiate the standard activities away, but you can't reasonably tell your partner that wanting oral is unreasonable.

Nocutename, I think I love you.

@73 Considering the fact that we are all the glorious individual snowflakes that we are I find the presumption of standard sexual practices a little strange. People like different things, people hate different things.

I'm a vegetarian. I hate meat. I find it disgusting. I cook it for my husband because I'm a good house wife.

I hate dogs. We will never have a dog. Too fucking bad for him.

He hates bright colors. Our living room is decorated in pops of primary colors because he loves me.

He hates having long hair even though it wets my panties. Too bad for me.

These are personal preferences. This is normal. No one would tell me to leave him for a dude with long hair. No one would tell him to leave me for a woman who has a dog. That's crazy. Just as no one would tell him he has to have long hair, just as no one would tell me I have to get a dog.

Why is oral not just a thing that some people love, some hate, some like, some tolerate? Why is it a thing that we all suddenly lose our individuality?

@75, would you say the same thing about kissing? Yes, it's true that some people don't like kissing. But it's rare. Kissing is pretty standard in relationships. So is holding hands. And hugging. And oral sex.

That doesn't mean anyone has to kiss anyone they don't want to, or have oral sex if they don't want to.

But the person who doesn't want to give oral sex has to realize that they're in the minority, just like I have to accept that I'm in the minority because I do like to be caned.

And this community seems much more embracing of those who want to be caned than those who don't want to give head. It bothers me, the inconsistency bothers me. But only a little bit.

@nocutename
Thanks for your kind welcome. I missed y'all too.
@PennyLady
I don't intend to psychoanalize you. I'm a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. That may help you understand how I react to you.

@EricaP
Oral comes standard also means, for me, no oral means no relationship. I'm aware that some women may not need oral to orgasm, but I do, so men who don't give oral may look for another partner that they'll fulfill. And since I have some fondness for giving oral, I'd rather have sex with someone who loves receiving oral. If oral didn't come standard, I would probably have even less lovers. Actually, oral given to women is not standard yet in France, so I make sure it will be part of the fun before any fun happens.

Oral comes standard means it's not an unreasonable request, and no one should think less of him if 20 years ago he had decided she wasn't for him after 20 minutes of oral-free sex. The fact that he waited 20 years before deciding it was something he couldn't do without indicates to me that it either hasn't been an excruciating deprivation (ie, he considered it optional rather than standard), or he hasn't been honest with her and himself. His sudden craving is unfortunate, and it would be nice if she helped him out (or helped him outsource); if not, he has to decide if this falls into the "resign oneself to being unfulfilled" category or is worth risking his marriage over. If he talks to her about it, she has to make the decision of whether to accommodate or risk her marriage by standing firm, and I don't think any of us is in a position to tell either of them what their decision should be. But it does seem that blowjobs are something that she's felt much more strongly about than he has, up until now.

I don't think this situation is comparable to the FFF letter at all, because the decision she has to make is not "what am I willing to do or not do for the sake of my relationship", but "how crazy am I going to make myself with imaginary problems?"

@62: The actual answer to your question is "because doing something that you have never done in 20 years is pretty different from continuing to go without something you've already demonstrated you can go without for 20 years." Note that I never mention gender in my explanation - because it is entirely unnecessary.

And cut it out with the rape shit. No one in this entire thread has at any point suggested that it is okay to rape you, so your insistence on repeatedly inserting this accusation into any debate makes you look like someone in serious need of professional help. In which case, you should go get that help. This is not the behavior of someone who is "fine", it is the behavior of someone who has unacknowledged, unresolved issues.

Chase, I think I love you. For #s 80 and 81, and for your too bad the French have no term for ménage a trois statement @37 on the FFF thread.

@70: "Yes. Even if there were only me, there would be me."

Next time this comes up, we'll see. I'll be quite happy to be surprised.

@72: We were approaching a minefield, so it seemed best to mention that in advance--and where the mines are.

@71: The phrase "oral comes standard" is usually followed with a line about how models found not to come with oral should be returned to the lot. That's not quite the same as demanding that they have to do it because Dan Savage said so, so much as saying that you shouldn't date people who won't go down on you. Possibly because Dan Savage said so, and possibly just because it's a good idea not to.

@81: And cut it out with the rape shit.

Listen very closely: Go fuck yourself.

You would never, ever say this to a woman who objected to rape jokes. That means you're lying when you say gender doesn't have anything to do with this. Fuck you, you piece of shit.

@82: Notice how any time a man tells male victims of rape to man up, shut up, and take it, that guy immediately gets outpourings of love from the women in the thread? It's really creepy.

At least you managed not to explicitly offer to have sex with him in exchange for his service of maintaining your right to rape. Good job, I guess?

Euadaemonic @83,
Why would you be surprised? Where is my history of telling people to have sex they didn’t want to?

@86: I'm referring both to the history of this (and every) community, and, among other things, to your history of explicitly offering sex in exchange for gender-role policing.

For you, personally, though? A lot of pieces added up back in the really long thread, when you talked about being something that's "wrong." Coupled with the lack of empathy, I was suspicious, but wasn't sure what you meant--until you performed the Sociopath Swivel, at which point it became clear that talking to you is kind of a mistake. I have enough experience with people with ASPD to recognize that tell, at the very least.

Incidentally, have you read any Kant? I've met other people with what I'm pretty sure is the condition you've got, and the ones who seem most functional are also the ones who speak highly of Kant's Groundwork of the Metaphysics of Morals. I'm told it's not a coincidence.

Ok, so you have no evidence that I have ever told anyone to have sex they didn’t want to.

There’s a reason for that. I’ve had sex I didn’t want to. It’s bad.

I don't immediately recall having seen you do it. That's very far away from having evidence that you will do it, which is what I was saying, as you know.

I'm serious about the Kant recommendation, though. It seems to help, enormously.

I should add that the Kant recommendation comes with a caveat that, if you don't speak German, the right way to read Kant is to--for each sentence--skim it once, so you can see where it's going, then go back and read it in more depth.

@89 But it means that you will have no reason to be surprised if the next time I have occasion to tell someone to have sex they don’t want to, that I don’t.

@91: No, it will be very unusual for anyone to not do that to someone who's male. Unusual things are surprising. Particularly when the unusual thing is "refraining from gender-role policing," and particularly from someone who has a history of explicitly offering rewards for gender-role policing.

I have every reason to expect that you'll do exactly what people usually do here, and that your statements to the contrary are false. Both because of the culture--that's the default behavior, so it's reasonable to expect--and because "making statements that are false" is one of the most common symptoms of the disorder, pre-Kant. It's also worthless to argue with people with your disorder about moral issues--it just teaches you guys new tricks--so I should stop doing it after this post. I understand that will be frustrating, since you guys really want new tricks, but--and this is something you'll be able to understand--what's in it for me?

Anyway. The fact that I don't currently recall an instance of you doing precisely that form of gender-role policing is a far cry from not having evidence that that is exactly what you'll do. I mean, it's not like you haven't already displayed abundant willingness to support the belief that women get to rape men, and men don't get to either say no, or to complain later. Since you've already taken abnormal steps in that direction, it's reasonable to expect that you'll take the normal steps in that direction as well.

Extremely vigorous rape apology is kind of your whole thing. It's reasonable to expect that you'll do the more normal kinds as well.

Eudaemonic @92,

Actually it’s not my thing. While I’m not perfect and I do pay attention to what you say (not for tricks, but to expand my empathy) because you are sometimes right, you personally have a history of misreading me badly (sometimes, not always) and insisting that the misreading is correct.

I appreciate that sometimes you see things that are there even though the speaker didn’t intend to put them there. That’s great, really. People hate it, including me, but often they reveal things they weren’t aware of thinking.

Because the way you read makes your rate of false negatives very, very low (which is great and instructive and contributes!) you have a correspondingly high rate of false positives. Often you’re seeing very real things that others don’t/won’t see; sometimes it’s pareidolia and they just aren’t there.

Carnegie would be proud.

@84: You should try listening to yourself first. No one here made anything resembling a rape joke. Other than PennyLady, who suggested that a bad experience might explain LW1's wife's reluctance, no one even mentioned rape until you did (surprise!). Which is more like rape, saying "you don't get a blowjob" or saying "you have to give a blowjob"?

If there were a regular female commenter on Slog who used every possible opportunity to shoehorn in her accusations that men were all looking for permission to rape her, that every disagreement between a man and a woman was an example of "rape culture", and that anyone who disagreed was collaborating in silencing her - in other words, who was being as tedious and pointlessly contentious as you are - you can be sure I would call her on that too. I've told raku to shut the fuck up, and they haven't been nearly as tiresome with their "white male oppressor" bullshit as you have with your "women think it's okay to rape me" bullshit.

So once again you're dead wrong about me. It's like you don't know me at all.

It's terrible that you were in an abusive relationship, it's even more terrible that you were raped, and it's terrible as well that you're clearly still very troubled by that experience. It is also terrible that you are taking out that discomfort fourteen years later on a group of mostly sympathetic strangers who had nothing to do with your experience and would genuinely rather you had not had it.

The whole reason I'm responding to you as politely as I am is because you are clearly an intelligent guy who has a lot more to offer in the way of insightful observation than fuckwits like SeattleBlues or treehugger. Which is why it's a shame that you keep insisting on shitting up nearly every thread involving a dispute between a male and a female with this huge fucking chip on your shoulder that you insist is not there. Believe me, it's there, and we're all very aware of it. Just since the beginning of this year you've used the word "rape" or "raping" in Slog comments nearly 100 times, or more than once a day on average. Does that sound like someone who has made a healthy recovery from their abuse?

You are being an asshole, especially to people who have made good faith efforts to try to understand you better and have asked you questions not to silence you but to try to get you to explain what you mean. This isn't your private group therapy session and none of us is getting paid $100 an hour to put up with your misdirected abusive assholery. That's what your shrink is for. Call him.

Because you do not sound healthy. You sound angry and unhinged.

For the record, I don't think LW1 should have to go to his grave without a blowjob. I think one obvious solution is for his wife to take pity on him and buy him one from a sex worker for his birthday, then watch him get it and (possible history of trauma aside) perhaps reconsider her position. At the least she should give him a free pass to get it elsewhere, as long as it doesn't threaten the marriage or the mortgage. Sadly, I'll be surprised if she does either; he'd have to get over his own hangups about sex workers too.

@82: Thank you. I'm glad to see you made it back from your internet exile.

@95 Chase - You probably won't appreciate this coming from me, but thank you! Your post was the most articulate response to Eud that I could never formulate. Clearly, I'm not nearly as insightful and incisive as you. I bow to your greatness. Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!

@Chase: I, too, want to thank you for @95. It was everything I wish I could have said.

It's really nice of Nocutename and JibeHo to make even more explicit how the transaction works.

Chase, I can't help but notice that you never say anything to the people who constantly go back to their refrain about how as long as you're male, you don't get any say in what people are allowed to do to you. But I say a word against it? Suddenly it's the biggest crime you ever saw, and you start stalking me from one thread to another, and saying nasty shit to amuse your cheering section. I know you think your motives are well-hidden, but they really aren't.

This was the first time I brought up Nocutename's tendencies without her demonstrating them first, and I only did it in hopes that we could avoid the part where she announces that men don't really count, I call her on it, and then everyone pretends there's something wrong with me for thinking that being male doesn't make me less than human.

You are being an asshole, especially to people who have made good faith efforts to try to understand you better and have asked you questions not to silence you but to try to get you to explain what you mean.

Name such a person. Phrasing "Shouldn't you shut up?" or "Isn't it not really rape, as long as it happens to a man?" as a question doesn't change the content, and it's the farthest possible thing from good faith. As you and your cheering section both know very well.

I'm not being an asshole to anyone who made even the slightest effort to understand; I'm being an asshole to shitstains like you, which is a different matter entirely. That's okay. I don't value the friendship of people who think my gender makes me less than fully human. You do, obviously. I understand that, and I understand why, but that doesn't change anything.

"Because you do not sound healthy. You sound angry and unhinged."

Oh yes. Because only angry and unhinged people think consent matters, or that both genders have equal rights. Did you think you're the first person to try this tactic? "Don't like being raped? There must be something wrong with you!"

Noticed it and got offended when we announced that it's okay to rape you? There must be something wrong with you.

I'd ask you why you're so invested in maintaining the "shut up and let us declare that men aren't fully human" status quo, but I think Nocute and JibeHo have made the reasons obvious enough. Thanks for baiting me into this thread, Nocutename; I guess I should have seen this coming, and should've known better than to say something to try to avoid this kind of thing. You must feel so proud of yourself.