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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
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http://paxromano.blogspot.com/2006/06/fo…
As for Dan's advice, I agree. The only thing that I might change (if it is in any way remotely true) would be to tell the evil sister-in-law that her brother always spoke very kindly of her....and that you've known her surname since you learned of her existence 20+ years ago.
No. Just leave the miserable bat to her miserable life. And have your grief un violated by any contamination with her.
She would find a way to sabotage your budding friendship with your neice. Give her no cause.
Just thru the airways tell her to kiss your butt and go fuck herself.
I am sorry for the loss of your love.
@LW, I'm so very sorry for your loss.
People in grief do and say stupid things; especially stupid people. Honour yourself and your late partner. Show her what class looks like. Don't take the bait. Send the pics, with a lovely note. Tell her how much you miss your partner, as she no doubt does.
I'd tell your sister-in-law, "Jesus had compassion for all people -- where's YOURS?"
If it were me, I would send the evil sister the photo albums in accordance with your partner's wishes, and never speak to her again. There are lots of people in the world with much more kindness in their hearts. Build relationships with them. Your life will be happier.
If you want to send a note, fill it with reminiscences of beautiful moments of your life together. Illustrate to her over and over again how you were his partner and his love, not just his "friend."
Heck, make the thing a digital album, and send copies to the entire family. And for the very final pictures, scan the bitch's hate-note to you and your gracious response to her showing her what family is. Let her words speak for themselves. Going all vitriolic on her will not embarrass her nearly as effectively as shining a little sunlight on her actions so the world can see her in all her glory.
there's no win here.
"make a point somewhere of mentioning that you're sending the albums in accordance with her brother's wishes, not because of her nasty rudeness."
Cat in Fez @10, that is not petty under the circumstances. MIA you should so do that, at the very least. But, I agree that if you do anything more that is even slightly confrontational, she is not going to learn anything from it. Sad as that may be. Some people just have this near-sociopathic need to feel superior to others. Good people (such as yourself and your niece) do not.
Kinda disagree that sending the letter can't hurt. Seems it could conceivably open the door to some kind of frustrating "dialogue" and god fucking knows there's a faction of those idiots that love nothing more than using such as an opportunity to preach. Not really sure how I'd handle it myself, but then I'm non-confrontational to a fault.
Here's a different perspective. When my brother realised he was going to die (cancer, age 35), he wrote letters to the people close to him. His letter to me focused on his concern about how little room God had in my life (none), and he asked me to seek Him (I haven't). We cared a lot for each other, and I really don't see his letter as proselytizing, but a reflection of his sincere concern about my well-being. Heck, if I believed in God, and eternal damnation for those who don't, I too would try to convince my loved ones to "see the light". His letter did not make me any bit more religious but helped me feel more sympathy for people I would before dismiss as irritating proselytizers.
So I am wondering: could it be that the letter from your sister-in-law is not necessarily hateful, but a clumsy evidence of concern for you? You both share a major loss (your partner, her brother) and that might have forced her to see you as a real person rather than just a devious sinner. She may truly believe that the nicest thing she can do for you is to help you to "see the light"; those Bible verses may be her earnest attempt do so. My suggestions is trying to see her side, remembering that she too has lost a loved one and is grieving.
I thus tend to lean towards the opinion of those above who thing sending a harsh note won't really help, and that sending some nice photos of you and your partner can be more constructive.
Take care, and make sure you surround yourself with loving people.
You don't need to have anything to do with this person, LW. Don't even bother to send the photo albums to her, she is dead inside already so can have no need of them. Donate the money you would have spent on p&p to a homeless LGBTQ youth shelter. No good can come with having anything to do with that woman, with the amount of bad miasma she's lugging around. She doesn't want the photos, she just want to deprive you of them. Your partner will understand.
Take care of yourself, go to the ocean and look at the waves. Once the first incredible pain and loss recede, you'll feel your love's presence again. He'll always be by your side.
This woman will not be changed by the letter. The only reason to send it is if not sending it will make you rehearse it mentally for the next X years because you feel like you never really had the chance to tell her how you feel.
If you can genuinely, honestly drop your (perfectly legitimate) anger and resentment and dismiss this clod from your mind, don't send the note. Rip it up and throw it away.
If by sending the note you will at least feel like you've said your piece and then you can drop it, go ahead.
Basically, do whatever can allow you to move past this person. She is toxicity calcified. Nothing you do is going to have an effect on her, so base your actions on what will have the best effect for you.
I do like the idea of a digital album, though. Since you seem to be on good terms with your niece-in-law, ask her which family members might be open to receiving a copy. There is no point in sending copies to any family members who share your SIL's bigoted beliefs - and it may invite responses like the one from your SIL that you can do without. Younger members of the family may be more open to it and your relationship with your husband should not be forgotten.
Send the religious tracts back to your SIL with the note you plan on sending her, and let her know you are not interested and any further religious rubbish she sends will be dumped into the garbage. It's up to you, but you may wish to tell her that because of her hateful attitude, you don't want to hear from her again. Life is too short to waste precious time on people like her.
I am so sorry for the loss of your husband of 25 years. I wish you the best in the future and hope you will find some loving members among his family who will cherish the relationship you had.
In any event, you'll better honor your partner and his family if you don't strike back in a similarly malicious manner. This just isn't the time or place to engage.
And be sure to keep the originals of every picture where you both are, or which 'look gay'. Unkind people destroy pictures of people they wish had never existed, so they can be forgotten. I've seen non-religious people destroy pictures of someone who had committed suicide 'because it so pains me to see that face'. As a result, the next generation has no clue what the suicided oncle looked like. Damnatio memoriae...
I presume the requested albums are old collections full of photos of the dear departed's birth family from (mostly or entirely) before the time LW became his chosen family. If there are chosen family photographs in any of the albums, that adds the interesting element of whether to remove the CF photos on SIL's own logic.
As Mr Mourning is being guided by his late SO's wishes regarding whether to turn over the albums, I'll just extend that consideration and advise him to be guided by the same wishes about the note and future interactions. Some of us hope our chosen families will treat our birth families with complete kindness, some with the benefit of the doubt, and some by giving them just what they deserve.
Nah.
First of all, it's not the same situation as a dying person communicating a (religious) message of care and love to family members with whom a sense of intimacy exists and to whom these types of personal messages may appropriately be addressed. This woman ignored the LW's entire existence up to now and any kind of sincere expression of care for him would IMO have to include 1. an acknowledgement of what he and her brother meant to each other and 2. an apology for her passive-aggressive attitude up till now. Yet she made no attempt to make amends for these things. Rude.
Secondly, intent isn't everything. Perhaps she meant to be kind... okay. Well some people's "kindness" hurts. What if she sent a child of hers to an anti-gay therapist, similarly thinking that was the "kindest" thing she could do for the kid? A very Christian male friend of mine used to let me know in high school if my outfit was causing him to "stumble" (that is, if I was dressed in a way he found too attractive) and used to tell me how sad he would be if I didn't convert and ended up in Hell. I tried to consider this "kind" for many years and all I got was a complex about my ass and a "friend" I no longer speak to because he saw me as a project. Eww.
No thank you. I don't know if the note should be sent - only the LW can decide if it's worth the fallout - but this woman does deserve to be called out.
I wouldn't give it much thought either way, but I'd draft something gracious in reply, as if to the note she should have written. Talk about how much you loved her brother, and how much you miss him in bed next to you at night.
But do let your niece know you sent a indignant - but temperate - reply, so the old bat can't make up some exaggerated story to try to ruin your relationship.
The LW gets to tell someone what his late husband meant to him, and be able to feel like he took the high road --- plus the thought of her brother being happy/making someone else happy will torment her much more than calling her out on her bad manners (which she would just take as confirmation of her righteousness).
While we're at it, include in the note something like "Before he died, he asked me to return these photo albums to you." No need to frame it as "I'm only doing it because he asked me to" --- again, that will just confirm what she wants to think of you (selfish, petty, all the things she is).
And I suppose you could address the package with her first name only ;-)
Even if not, the act of venting back at her might be a stress reliever. As for conflict, he simply doesn't have to accept any communication from her ever again. Conflict over with him getting the last word.
As for the family photo albums, yes, he should return them. But if I were him I would return them to the niece, not the sister. He was asked to return them to the family. The niece is family.
I agree with those who say not to give the SIL ammunition for a sides-taking fight within the family or a reason to extend the conversation by sending the note you want to write. If it makes you feel better, I'd write several versions of a note to her, and then I'd destroy them. She'll never change, or at least a note won't change her.
Make sure to make digital copies of every photo in the albums and then send her either the copies or the originals, with, as this guy I know in Spokane says @35, a note that lets her know that your partner had asked you to return the photos and you are honoring his wishes, but not in a petty way. You want to be the better person--both for your own conscience, and because should SIL show anyone in the family or her friends the correspondences, you'll come out looking like the bigger person to them, too.
Continue to strengthen your relationship to your niece, if you like her and if you want. Perhaps her mother will see that she responds to you as her uncle by marriage and as the widower of her biological uncle and will be forced to acknowledge your role in her brother's life. But even if she doesn't, you should have whatever connections to your late husband's family you want.
I'm sure you're already doing this, but I hope you're surrounding yourself with close friends and family, either supportive biological family or chosen family.
MIA, I'm so sorry for your loss and wish you peace and happiness. Be kind to yourself during this time.
His mother, who was a bible-beating Pentecostal from rural Missouri, told my partner that he needed to "get right with Jesus" as he lay on his deathbed. As I stood there holding his hand, she literally told him that he was going to hell unless he renounced me and his "homosexual lifestyle." Since my partner was pretty out of it thanks to meds, I'm not sure if he heard her. He died a couple of days later.
Not surprisingly, after he died she tried everything to prevent me from claiming his life insurance, inheriting our home and possessions, and basically made my life a living hell. I finally had to sell our home and move to stop the harassment from her and the rest of his hateful family.
I cut off all contact with his family, but not before mailing a letter to his mother where I unleashed my fury. It was cathartic, and very necessary. So, I'm with Dan - write the letter and send it. Hateful, bigoted people need to be called out on their hatred and bigotry.
You can take the higher ground while still subtly pointing out what a hypocrite she's been. Maybe it's a bit passive aggressive, but it's much better than she deserves while still allowing you to feel like the better person.
mil, i'm sorry she's so stuck in her own meanness. you'll know what to do when the time is right.
my only concern about sending that kind of letter right away is that while it's true, it's most likely going to escalate any hatefulness. i have a practice to let myself feel the anger, which might include writing an angry letter but not sending it...and see how my feelings shift and change over time. because my experience is...my feelings and thoughts do shift and change and usually i come back to knowing that i want peace and connection in my life.
some say go ahead and burn the bridge.
maybe rob's right. regardless, if you send the letter, it won't cost rob anything.
"I'm sorry to hear you felt about me and my partner of 25 years the way you said in your note. Perhaps someday, you can understand that we loved each other.
Unfortunately, I will not be able to send you the photo albums you requested, as [partner] requested that I return them to the family. As such, they are with my niece. Perhaps you know her."
The best way to deal with people who seem hell-bent on inserting themselves into your life is to deny them the satisfaction of feeling like it's working.
The Cuban Missile Crisis method is appropriate here... Pretend you never received the letter, and tell your niece that your late husband asked you to give the family photos to his birth family and give the photos to your niece. Wins all around.
Sorry for your loss MIA, I hope you can find peace with supportive people who love and respect you.
The note you want to send comes across as cold--the proper response to such a rotten woman. Since your husband asked you to send the photos back, honor his wishes--but make copies first. And in your letter to her, let her know that you are only sending the photos back because it's what your husband wanted, and you want to honor his dying wishes. Don't go through the niece; she doesn't deserve the negative energy. Write a separate note to the niece letting her know you want to stay in touch and still consider her family.
Best wishes.
Connection and compassion is virtually impossible; it is also the only thing left. I'd write as authentic a letter as I could connecting with whatever is true and grieving inside her twisted soul, while staying firmly planted in self-respect and common courtesy. I'd leave out nothing that felt unnatural -- if it feels natural to say "husband" go for it, but nor would I throw in sly jabs.
I'd sign my fucking last name - same as I would for any other distant stranger.
-------------------
Dear [Grieving Bitch],
Thank you for sending your note during this difficult time. This loss has been extroardinarily painful, as you know. I too wish you comfort in the loss off your brother.
I have sent along the photo albums you requested; before passing away, John asked me to pass these on to you. I hope the photos and the memories they contain bring you joy.
Condolences,
James Doe
Send her the note, perhaps if somebody in the past had done something like that to her it would have stopped her from being such a miserable old witch.
Unknown
This may not even need mentioning, but please be careful not to put your niece in a position where she has to choose between loyalty to her mother or loyalty to you. If she criticises her mom, draw out her feelings without jumping in. Talk about your own feelings without labeling mom as an asshole, even if she asks you directly, "Do you think my mom is an asshole?" (Trust me, she already knows.) Definitely talk about points of disagreement, just don't judge or label. She will figure things out on her own as she grows up, and you'll still be there as her uncle and as an example of a relative who is not an evangelical hater. (Lurker advice)
"You know what I can't stand? Telemarketers. Am I right? (The proselytizer almost always agrees.) I mean, there you are, minding your own business, when some asshole calls you up and tries to sell you some nonsense you have no interest in. And the guy tries to pretend he's your friend, but you know he's motivated by meeting his quota. Don't you find it unbearably rude when someone interrupts your day to sell you pointless bullshit for their own benefit?"
At the last point, stare straight at them. Usually around that point, you'll be rewarded with a look of recognition, followed by embarrassment, followed by awkward excuses to go somewhere else.
Copy the pictures. Send the originals back with her religious tracts without added comment. Leave your niece out of it completely.
I'm so sorry for your loss, you need to heal right now, not deal with this woman's bullshit.
I would do nothing for 6 months. Don't reply, don't return the pictures, don't read any correspondence from nasty bitch lady and then see how you feel.
I have to say that I'd be in the kindness camp as well. Kill with kindness.....Do send a note, pointing out what your last name is (for her records of course), but ignore the tedious proselytizing and go on at length about how much you loved her brother and how much he meant to you. Perhaps tell her how you and he met or about a special trip you took together, or some shared love you had.
Then leave it alone. Develop a relationship with your niece and ignore the mother (it's not clear whether the niece is an adult or a minor from your letter) as best you can.
I empathize with the LW and am sorry that he is experiencing an additional dose of salt in his wounds. No one deserves that. Personally, I don't think a barbed letter in reply would do anything but egg that hateful woman on to promote her own agenda more forcefully. Maybe the best reply is no reply. Or kill her with kindness instead of meeting her bad manners and insensitivity with anger. The unpredictable response can be very disarming. I don't have all the answers, but I do think that the catharsis that one expects when meeting hate with anger sometimes fails to meet expectations. The revenge isn't as sweet as you think it will be. But you'll get no judgement from me if you go down a different path. Good luck, and be well.
MIA should reach out the the niece proactively. She needs to know that there are people in the world who are not ruled by the toxic superstition of her mother. Who knows what suffering MIA might spare her by staying in touch as a voice of sanity and reason in her life?
Scan the images if there are ones you want to keep. Let the SIL know that you are complying with your PARTNER'S wishes and not hers.
My grandma is religious, her brother is gay.
My grandma can't wrap her head around his reality, and I'm sure has said many stupid things.
My great-uncle has cut himself off from our family. I was really sad when he didn't come to my mom's funeral.
My great-uncle's partner is awesome and dammit I ned to go stalk his email so we can get back in touch.
My grandma is awesome and helped me graduate from college and saw her only kid ravaged by disease and I know she feels the loss of her brother from family life keenly.
My grandma's sister is straight but has made her stance of giving zero fucks about religion clear but still keeps that channel of communication open. The starters are close.
My great-uncle is a hero to me but dammitall he needs to step up his uncle duties while he can. Email, yo.
My grandma isn't a hateful old bat.
Losing family sucks.
Your niece has undoubtedly been raised by her mother to be a bigot, but she is reaching out to you and seems open to more charitable, more inclusive attitudes. You have the opportunity to make the world just a little more kind by short-circuiting her mother's teachings by letting your niece get to know you and letting her know how much her uncle and you meant to each other and that your love was as true and beautiful as any other couple's.
Your letter has really struck a nerve. My brother and his wife are bigots like your SIL, busy raising a next generation of bigots like themselves. On my rare family visits, I always get into screaming fights with them. But for the sake of my nieces and nephew, I need to find a better way to deal with my brother and SIL.
Best wishes to you. And if you wouldn't mind dropping a note to Dan sometime, I think I can speak for many of the commenters here: We'd like to know how you're doing and how your niece responded and whether there are other members of your late husband's family who've reached out to you. With love, Diane H.
All of your actions concerning the note, the photo album, and your contacting your niece should be made with these things mind:
1) How your actions will soothe and comfort you right now, and
2) How your actions will feel to you when you look back on them in a few years.
For the photo album, the question is: Do you want the photos? Will you like having them in a few years as good remembrances? Or do you not really want them and would only be keeping them to spite the witch? You might hold on to them for a few years and decide later if you want to give them to your sister-in-law. Your partner didn't put a time limit on your passing them along, did he?
For the note, my guess is that no reply is the best one. It's not that I think she'll be better off not seeing the angry one. It's because she's not worth your time, not worth your anger, not worth your emotion, not worth engaging with, too stupid to be convinced. But this is up to you (obviously). If you think you'd feel like you'd gotten something off your chest if you sent the angry note, by all means do so. I'm only afraid that if you mail anything to her, she'll feel like you've opened the door for her to mail something back, and then you're in an argument with her, one that you can't win. If you point out to her that she's never bothered to learn your last name, all she has to do if learn your last name, and she pats herself on the back. There really is no winning. Remember that in her church, just trying to convert (provoke) you wins her points in heaven, so ignoring her seems (to me) to be your best bet.
(Not really the point of your letter, but you do see the contradiction in someone who's nice and sweet in person but who also manages to slip in something nasty in every conversation, don't you? That means she's not nice and sweet.)
Keep corresponding with your niece.
It is entirely possible that your sister-in-law genuinely believes homosexuality is a sin, based on her reading of the Bible. There is nothing you can do about that. It may be difficult for her to reconcile the fact that her brother was a gay man in a happy long-term relationship with another man. Her letter may not have been written as an attempt to be rude, rather as a way of reframing your relationship, so it made sense to her considering her Conservative Christian worldview. She was setting boundaries for you, by thanking you for being "his friend", instead of being his lover and spouse. This new framework for your relationship with her brother isn't about you or even her brother. It's about her.
However, your relationship with her brother was not about her. It was about you and her brother. Her brother was what he was: A gay man in a loving sexual relationship with another man. If she can't accept that, it is her problem.
So own your relationship with her brother. Reply to her letter politely and firmly stating the nature of your relationship with her brother. Include pictures of you and her brother in as a couple when you return the photo album. Clearly state that you were a family not just friends. Do be angry, don't apologize, just set your boundaries, own your relationship, and move on. It isn't your responsibility to educate her about the reality of gay relationships, but only you can set your own boundaries.
I hope you post here and tell us how it went down.
Or as someone else put it, nice is different from good.