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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
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Love it when you get all masterful and masculine. Excuse me. It's Thursday.
If you can figure out exactly why his behavior is bothering you, maybe you and he can talk about it without it turning into a big fight.
Well done.
Beyond a certain point, gullible people and the so manipulated are participatory in these scenarios when they try to "be nice". They allow these persons to draw them in while they coddle the manipulators. It may not be a direct threat to the relationship now, but it's not a great example of judgment when your partner can't break off from a harmful person. Hopefully this works out, but this symbiotic relationship between "nice guy or gal" and emotional manipulator is a symptomatic of greater issues.
Can one seriously not allude to a mistake one's partner is making with regards to a "friend"? Yeesh.
Anyway I do agree with Dan, this BF isn't being very nice to the girl he's texting. The fact that he says he just doesn't respond in kind to the flirting suggests he also hasn't laid down the line and said he's not interested, suggests he's using her for an ego boost at some level and giving her false hope. Or, what if she's lying to him about how shitty her relationship is and just enjoys the attention / is hoping to get him to cheat? He should consider she might be using him.
He really needs to set a boundary with her and get it out in the open that he's not interested in her flirting. If he isn't willing to do that then he doesn't really care about her feelings or the LW's feelings. And that's not a good look.
Yeah, unless he's particularly naive or gullible, TADID's BF will see through the "I'm concerned for her" bit (which seems unlikely to be true). However, I think if she dropped the "concerned" part and kept the "you're really not doing her any favours" part, it would probably come off as sincere, and also quite possibly be sincere, which is really the important thing. TADID doesn't actually need to be personally concerned for the ex-fuck-buddy/girlfriend/whatever to have a genuine opinion about what is the right thing to do that is separate from her own feelings of insecurity.
P.S. Sandiai, I'm sorry your bike got stolen. I feel your pain.
She says she knows the ex still loves him because her boyfriend told her so. That's a red flag : one's significant other telling one 'oh, just so you know, you have competition, this person wants to fuck me and loves me, and I'm willing to lavish time on that person, but don't worry, it's not out of love for that person.' How strange to inform one's partner that there is someone waiting for him in the aisles ? It's pretty shitty.
Besides, she has no other info on the ex, but what her boyfriend tells her. Is he realy truthfull ?
It could very well be that the ex left the boyfriend and it's the boyfriend who is still in love, and trying to get back with her under the radar.
I'd advise LW to ask to see the exchanged texts, out of legitimate curiosity and/or desire to help the ex (friends of my boyfriend are my friends). If there is really nothing but friendship from the boyfriend, he should be willing to show their conversations to his current girlfriend ; that would prove without a doubt that the ex is really unhappy and pursuing the boyfriend. But if he finds any reason to balk, such as 'I can't let you see that, you'll have a bad opinion of her' when he's already painted the ex with truly awful colors : as the dumped ex who can't let go and is miserable in her new relationship, then it would be time to DTMFA.
If ex had dumped him she wouldn't be texting him all the time.
He is playing both women, he either doesn't want or is not mature enough to have an adult relationship with one woman.
As is stringing someone along who's pining for you (he says.) We all like feeling wanted, it's a boost, but he should have dosed with that sweet sweet admiration a time or two, without alerting his gf, then texted back 'the gf and I are working out some issues, it's best you and I, given our history, give it a rest for awhile,' then block her number.
I'm at a loss. I love this man and I want it to work, but this girl is a fly who won't go away. I know I should trust and respect him, but sometimes it is extremely difficult. Thank you for all your insights.
But seeing him be roped into her world of drama affects you.
"know I should trust and respect him, but sometimes it is extremely difficult. "
Well, trust and respect don't have to be about cheating. If he is allowing himself to be pulled into something emotionally intimate, know that you do have a right to feel uncomfortable. Especially if she knows that he'd be fucking her still. She gets a lot from his presence. Right now, what is he getting from hers? If she's not a good friend to him, why can't he break off?
It's good to question whether this is irrational jealousy or not. But you do have a right to feel unwell about this scenario.
Thanks for chiming in. Could you give us a bit more info ? Such as :
- was his texting her always a part of your relationship, or how long into your relationship did it happen ?
- have you seen for yourself their texting, or is it only on his word ?
- are you certain he's texting precisely this one ex, or is it only on his word ?
Some people are dishonest and if you can't stand dishonesty it's best to know sooner than later. There's only one person whom I know in real life who pulled of this behavior of 'I'm constantly texting a female with whom it's silly to think I could have a relationship with, just being there to help her with her personal difficulties, despite it annoying the spouse'. Turns out he was not texting the person he was saying, he was conducting an affair with another right under the spouse's nose.
Besides, as of trust, sure you should just trust him if you want to stay in the relationship, but trust is also something earned. When someone behaves shadily - and your BF gives me whiffs of shady behavior - trust should not be a given.
His story about not staying the night with his ex ? It tells me that they were very much together when you too hooked up, and she was not ready for it when he told her he found someone else. You guys' hook-up was cheating on his part. I don't call that a mature way to go from a relationship into another. If anyting, your boyfriend is an opportunist, and he keeps you on your toes by letting you know there is, and enabling, this competition on the side.
There are 3 of you in this relationship, and you should be firm on also getting to have a private relationship with this person he's texting. Meet her, ask her what's up, be her friend : maybe your boyfriend isn't lying about what's happening.
Regardless, he has to understand how he feels about it and I can't think of a great way to define it to someone involved without either party hurt or offended.
I mean, with fully platonic friends in terrible relationships, if they're not willing to do what they need to do and just want you to accept extremely bad decisions, that's quite hard to take and sometimes you need to step back. If she's not changing her mind and improving her scenario, he should disentangle.
Again though, he needs to figure this out. Say your peace, don't attack her, diplomacy is essential.
And then, yeah, you'll need to let it go. If she keeps texting and he keeps answering, you'll either need to make a joke of it - "oh, is it the bunny-boiler again?" - ignore it, or dump his ass. Those will be the only options.
@sissoucat, you are correct in saying that their "relationship" stopped abruptly. I get the sense that things were confusing between them because he liked sleeping with her and liked her to an extent, but always knew in the back of his mind that it wouldn't escalate past a certain point. He is a 30 y.o., after all, and I think he's starting to think about the future (I think). He always tells me that I was an unexpected occurrence (we work together), and he was up front from the beginning about having loose ends that he needed to tie up.
@undead ayn rand, I have asked him that question time and again. What is it about her? The answer's the same: he's just trying to be a nice guy.
I'm okay with it feeding his ego. I'm okay with his thinking that she is a good lay. I'm a long time reader of Dan's column and even though I'm only 23, I wouldn't consider myself naive. He can find her more attractive than me for all I care, but the attention he pays her is what is upsetting.
Update: last night she asked if he was serious about me, and he said "there are ups and downs but it could be something special." We are half a year in and not sure what to make of this answer.
Has he shown any self-awareness about the situation?
OK. You want to give him the benefit of the doubt, so let's assume that he is being upfront about his motives with you.
His declaration that he is "trying to be a nice guy" is a bit short-sighted of him. He needs to understand that allowing her to flirt with him pointlessly may be "nice" but it isn't very kind. Likely he feels bad about dropping her for you, but saying things to her like "there are ups and downs" in your relationship is unwittingly giving her false hope, even if he isn't consciously stringing her along. She was fairly blatantly asking him if she still has a chance, and his answer was not no.
So is he tying up those loose ends, or is he leaving them untied and wringing his hands over them for the foreseeable future? And just how long are you willing to wait for him to choose you in a serious way (if that is what you want)?
These are things you have to consider when you talk to him about it. If I were you I'd be just about ready to ask WHEN he is finally going to draw the line in the sand and let her know her flirting is no longer ok with him.
Or maybe the texts will just fade away. But either way, make it his decision and his action. You need to just set the reasonable standard.
But again, this lesson may only be learned by you leaving him if he can't learn how to balance your feelings with this woman's many needs.
And like all who use the hackneyed phrase, more about pushing a selfish narrative than being a good person.
A 30-year-old "mature, level-headed guy" who may be "starting to think about the future" rightly could have misgivings about a future with someone who is seven years younger, seemingly less mature and unapologetic enough about her own drama factor to choose "sassy_molassey" as a screen name.
If I were you and really wanted to make this work, here's what I might do: Give him the "you're not doing her any favors" speech. Then tell him whether or not he decides to stay in touch with her is up to him — but if he does, you don't want to hear about her anymore. Then do your best to put her out of your mind, and concentrate on being a fun, chill, non-jealous girlfriend.
Then again, if she and you are the type of woman he goes for, maybe he secretly is into all the drama — in which case, you may have misjudged his maturity and levelheadedness. The fact that he would tell her about his qualms about your relationship might bolster that view.
Just don't believe anyone who tells you you can find it in the basement of the Alamo.
LW, his contact with her is negatively impacting your relationship. The fact that he has made sure to let you know she's totally into him, and he'd be fucking her right this minute if you weren't in the picture, and he is going to continue what is an intimate friendship in terms of the way in which they communicate (it's not an occasional beer at the bar or a group outing with friends), knowing full well that it is hurtful to you - that is a series of red flags.
If it were me, I'd be asking myself if he is the right guy for me. He doesn't owe you a change in behavior or attitude, but you do owe yourself a 100% honest exploration about how long you are willing to deal with all of this on his terms only.
"It's cool, I'm not fucking her" is no comfort to someone confident enough to look beyond previous, even recent sexual history but who feels uncomfortable about their current partner's bizarrely codependent and not-platonic relationships with another woman. She has intentions, the boyfriend knows she has intentions, he considers her a viable partner still, and yet he does not distance himself as he should. If she doesn't respect her own relationship enough, if she doesn't respect the boyfriend enough to stay away, if she doesn't respect the LW, he needs to back the fuck off and drop contact. Trust requires consciousness of ones own actions, it's not just "I don't fuck others" in a monogamous relationship. It involves a greater honesty of intent and action than he seems capable of.
Even when jealousy may be justified, displaying it is usually counterproductive.
That said: White Knight Guy is not ever going to stop being White Knight Guy in some form or other. Best you can do, in my experience, is limit the extent to which it hits you, usually with an ultimatum. "Look, honey, I love you, but if Bella Swan here keeps interrupting our activities, I'm done. You want to play unpaid therapist, you do it on your own time."
He is constantly re-fuelling the attachment she had for him rather than letting her get on with her life and getting over him.
Being friendly and supportive to an ex seems like a kind thing to do but it is actually the lazy, easy option rather than acting like a grown up and saying "we need to make a clean break for both of our good".
If her new bf is no good then she needs to dump him and move on but she isn't going to do that when her ex, the guy she really wants, keeps rewarding her with attention. She is just staying with the new guy ready to drop him when (in her mind) your bf finally comes to his senses.
Your bf wants the easy life, he isn't ready to make adult decisions and is playing with your emotions.
My gut says that this relationship isn't going anywhere in the long term and that you deserve better - but right now you are giving this guy permission to be an asshole because you still want him.
You are in your early twenties - you are going to grow up more, I'm not so sure about him.
Good luck.
I certainly hope your boyfriend has never said that you are.
I guess my question is, for all you men/women who have been there, is that really the extent that a guy would go to for someone he doesn't actually care about?
He's manipulating you.
There's a male corollary to the "damsel in distress." Let's call it the white knight or nice guy or whatever. And both can be feigned for manipulative purposes. Just as some women deliberately distress themselves (including pouring themselves in messy relationships) in order to get nice guys' attention, some men act like suckers for crazy to rouse a woman's nurturing instincts.
What clinched it for me was that he told you he'd still be banging her if it weren't for you. That's a set-up: "You'd better stay with me, or I'll fall back into the arms of crazy." Reverse the genders and see if he isn't acting exactly like a manipulative woman who has a "shitty boyfriend" or ex.
Don't confuse charm and forwardness for sincerity.
So far he's done very little do address this "hump". He has not set proper boundaries in this scenario.
Flirtation while in a relationship isn't horrible, but flirtation when both sides are "up for it" is absolutely immature if the intention is to pursue something serious with YOU.
As mentioned before by another, arguing loudly with him is doing both no favors. She doesn't respect you or him. If he can't respect you and set real, adult boundaries at some point, dump him. Give him time to realize, but he is old enough that he shouldn't be drawn to her in love with being in love state of constant drama.
And seeking out a "damsel in distress" instead of devoting his attentions to his partner is certainly a dumpable offense. You can do better.
"Care about" in this case == emotionally entangled and codependent on. That he conflates the two is distressing.
@54: " What clinched it for me was that he told you he'd still be banging her if it weren't for you. That's a set-up: "You'd better stay with me, or I'll fall back into the arms of crazy."
It's important to keep in mind that he has her as a fallback, as her him. If you break up, they will have the same relationship that they do now, only with sex. This may occur completely independent of anything you do, so make the right decision for yourself, and not the one that you perceive as protecting him from her. Even if he doesn't act it, he is a grown man too, and if he is manipulated, is being so with an adult's grasp of the situation.
Yes, yes, yes, plus YES to a bunch of other stuff she wrote. LW, I know how tempting it is to roll out a list of "yeah, but he..." things he does that feels like proof he's a great guy with your best interests at heart, and he's totally into you, but how he continues to behave with his ex is him showing you how he values you. You can't throw out a glaring warning sign because it's more comforting to look at the things that feel good.
Hmm.
I tend to agree with @54. I don't want to make this about his intent because I'm not a mind reader, but consider: He told you repeatedly about his "friendship" with his ex and that it includes her flirting with him. (But it's one-sided, he is just being nice of course.) He informed you that he would be sleeping with her if not for you. He told you about this stuff until you blew up at him over it. He probably was like, "Jeez! Calm down!" Then he texted her that your relationship has "ups and downs" and then he told you about that.
If I were you, I'd be on a rollercoaster of emotions! And I bet the ex is too! After all, he keeps dribbling and drabbling out information about each of y'all to the other. For her it's "we have our ups and downs", for you it's "I told her we have our ups and downs." For all we know, for her it's "she's better in bed than you" while for you it's "if it weren't for you I'd still be fucking her." No wonder the ex is confused. No wonder you are confused.
Beware of a man when every woman around him seems crazy.
He's telling the LW that he isn't sleeping with the ex, he's telling the ex that he's not serious about the LW and therefore her behavior is still desired. It's not fair to pretend as if he's entirely dumb and innocent here. I had more sympathy when i still thought he was in his early 20s.
Being a decent human being is the bare minimum and not a "good sign".
I also think he's kind of a dipshit, and depending on how long you guys have been dating, *way* too into a whole dramatic narrative thing. He's really into you! Right away! He can't tell his ex to fuck off because she's soo troubled and she needs him and blah blah blooey blah! He's telling you this stuff so you can also have emotions about it! Not so much with boundaries, this guy: his own or other people's.
If he's telling the truth about his ex, she's a manipulative willful trainwreck of a woman: I know the type. But--do you really want to be with someone who, in his thirties, can't or won't identify that sort of dramabag and establish some damn limits?
Basically: I don't doubt that he cares about you. But he's *also* either dumb, spineless, or manipulative himself. These things aren't incompatible. Do with this information what you will.
@51: Yeah, pretty much. I suspect I see it more in geek circles either because that's where I hang out or because a lot of the media there focuses on saving the girl. Which: barf.
I'd be curious to see how your boyfriend would react if you told him you wanted to take things slow and not move in together just yet. When my now-husband first asked me to move in with him, I told him that I needed some time to be independent on my own first, and he was happy to wait for me because he already knew we had something special, so there was no rush. In contrast, one of the red flags I'm seeing in your situation is that your boyfriend said "assuming we make it through this hump." It sounds to me like he's trying to coerce you into accepting his relationship with his ex by dangling the reward of "taking the relationship to a new level aka co-habitation" in front of you.
He should prove his ability to be a stable partner before taking the relationship "serious". Rushing to make the relationship more serious to justify himself as a stable partner would be a sign that he confuses relationship status with long term stability.
Again, not surprising that there is more interest with visible and external appearances than right-action.
@68: Being in love with being in love is definitely older than geek culture. Oh romance! Oh drama! Oh the highs and lows! Oh the feels kept at artificially extreme depths, and the actions taken to prolong them at the expense of sanity/stability. It's not enough to send these people to SLAA, but it's certainly self-destructive.
I think it's also important to note that this is not just an issue of anecdotes, looking for "damsels" and "fixer-uppers" is a legitimate and self-destructive personality flaw, even outside of being in a relationship with someone who is not the only target of your codependency.
It is also something you can't talk a boy out of, he has to know on some level what he's looking for and how he's creating unhealthy situations out of.
If the LW gives him time, she should also be realistic about his ability to snap out of it, even if the target of his desires leaves the picture.
I agree with whomever said that actions speak louder than words, so is it worth mentioning that he had never put me on hold for her? The texting had not interfered with our conversations (as I said, I always bring it up), he is [otherwise] a gentleman to be, considerate, etc. She literally never comes up unless I broach the subject. Also, may have already said this earlier, but he did agree to never see her in person.
I've also asked how he would feel if the situations were reversed: if I chatted with an ex fling, would be very upset? His answer, attributable to his insane self confidence, is always "no, because I trust you." Hard to argue with that logic.
"Trust" is a thing that is bigger than him having sex with her. You want to be secure and comfortable with him. She is currently more than a friend and this is not going to change.
He has put you on hold for her. Maybe you only want to see it in terms of he physically did not shush you in order to jump into a texting session, but his insistence on a co-existing relationship with her (to me, he is involved with her, even if you and he could both argue the semantics of the term) is putting you on hold.
I get the feeling you are really trying to line up a list of his good points that is so long that it masquerades as proof that he's a keeper, and he is only doing something minor. I get it - I have made those lists myself. I hope you are also taking the time to really absorb the huge amount of input you're getting that points out that his behavior has already given you all the info you need.
In fairness to him, I am always the one who brings her up. In the beginning of the relationship he was open, but once he realized that I was always upset, he stopped telling me about her. He would only say when asked, which I do because I suppose I am a self sabotager? His texting has not gotten in the way of our time together; he doesn't ignore me, he is [otherwise] kind, a gentleman, and (given his age) a positive influence especially when it comes to work (we work together). Not sure if I mentioned this earlier, but he did agree not to ever hang out with her. He isn't above reasonable requests, and to him, being told not to speak to someone is controlling and therefore unreasonable.
I should also point out that I once asked him what he would do if the situations were reversed. Would he be upset if I consistently spoke to a man I once had a fling with? His answer was no, that it's not his business and he'd rather not engage me since he trusts me. I had half the mind to test his theory but got so guilty that I decided it would probably be counterproductive.
Do I discount all the other positives for this isolated incident that he is trying not to turn into a thing? If actions speak louder than words, wouldn't it be wise to give him more credit and pay attention to the positives of our relationship?
Just a youngin' trying to pick the brains of those with more wisdom than I.
One thing I wish I was told when I was younger : wanting to move in with someone early is not a proof of love at all. You should know that among the people overeager to move in, to meet the family, to get married as fast as possible and to have kids, are the abusers : people who are the most charming you've ever met at first, a whirlwind, but whose sinister face only shows once your lives are so intertwinned that you can't leave anymore. They are in a hurry to get there, they truly can't wait.
Do you know any of your BF's friends ? Are they nice persons, people with integrity ? Have you ever met past girlfriends of his, with whom he's stayed friends ? If there are no real life past girlfriends who've become friends with him, then he's bad news, and your inexperience is the only reason why he's with you.
The more you describe him the more he seems like my abusive ex-husband. Check for yourself whatever he tells you about anybody, don't trust him if he ever tries to tell you who you really are, try to get to know people who've known him longer and get them to talk about him to know who he really is.
Don't move in until everything in your relationship is perfectly fine.
He's met your family, but you've not met his. Is he reluctant to introduce you to his family ? Is he telling you that they were abusive to him, despite his staying in contact with them ? (another of the abusive ex-husband traits).
Educate yourself about abusers. I've found the Dr Irene red flag list to be useful (google it ).
But you're flattered by his promises and yet his unhealthy and codependent relationship with his ex, his behavior is still what disturbs you.
:(
Get some stronger self-respect, hon.
As for age and wisdom : you have all the wisdom you need. We're a bit older in the game and we've seen a trick or three and have suffered as a consequence, we're not really wiser than you. Don't sell yourself short.
Trust your gut feeling. If you feel uncomfortable in this relationship because of something he does, it's valid to point it out to him and ask him to change it. Being in a relationship is not a reason to ignore your own feelings. A good relationship is one where you feel your comfort matters to your partner, not one where at six months you're miserable because he's keeping another woman on the back burner and telling her you have downs.
Have confidence in your feelings. You're entitled to having feelings, and to have a partner who respects your feelings, without you having to ask him to recognize they are valid. If he doesn't want 'this to become a thing' then why don't he stop texting her ? He can't prevent you from having feelings about his keeping on wronging you.
It's another red flag to me that you feel so guilty of pestering him over her. We're telling you you've been right, his behaviour is wrong, and to dump him ; and you're trying to make excuses for him. I get that you're in love with him. Reverse the situation : would you text your previous BF, or someone who you know pines for you, that you have ups and downs with your recent BF of six months ? Wouldn't you feel that's it's not very loving from you to text such stuff, and that you're both wronging the current BF and the poor shmuck who'll think from this confidence that he has a chance with you ? If you wouldn't do that to your BF, then you don't have to accept it from him, and you don't have to defend his doing it to you by framing your natural reaction as unreasonable.
And no, no amount of good stuff in a relationship can make up for not being loved.
You're 23. Don't settle for a 30 years-old who'll live with you but not without texting the ex. Have sex and fun with him, why not, but don't build anything permanent.
And yes, I have met his family. In fact, I met his before he met mine. I've met a fair number of his friends, and all sing his praises.
Every time I've ever checked in with well-meaning people about a concern in my relationship, the response has always been on the side of "there's something wrong, oh well, must be over." I tend to do the same when a friend tells me something that makes me feel angry at their partner, and I've been challenging myself recently to knock that the hell off because NO ONE is perfect, and NO ONE gets through a relationship without doing dumbass/rude/immature things at some point.
So read the advice but don't let a group of people sway you out of how you really feel. You know in your gut whether this person is respectful of you or not.
And the problem here is that her boyfriend won't let his last relationship go. Not with the LW.
A grown-up would drop her and not continue allowing her to push for a relationship when he's in a relationship right now. With you. The guy she's she's dating is tangential and would quickly not get in the way if he was to say yes. Keeping her strung along is not virtuous, either.
But really, the common narrative we're all taught is to stick through things that are unhealthy for no goddamned reason, because we should "try". Why shouldn't people be encouraged to move on if they find a situation less than tolerable?