They should have just said "We're banning drag because drag is tired and corny."
I would have respected that.
....And obviously gaining the respect of a nobody in Seattle is at the top of the Glasgow free pride 2105 agenda.

I am SO OFFENDED.

"We dropped drag performances since even RuPaul got bitched out by humorless transgendered people about her show."

@ 3 - You're going to get so much flack for that extra "-ed"...

The logic is so circular it's dizzying.
If a less marginalized group is excluded (ie. MARGINALIZED) do they then get to move up and say who they want excluded?
And then there's this:
"transgender individuals who were uncomfortable with having drag performances at the event," and because drag acts "might make some of those who were transgender or questioning their gender uncomfortable."
Oy, so much discomfort!!

This is what happens when you give any kind of authority to radical queer liberal arts college rejects who just read Judith Butler and Michele Foucault for the first time.

affectionately or not, drag performances have been mocking women and their sexuality for approximately ever. if women were offended at being lampooned by gay men up to this point, tough shit.

but now that trans women, AKA women who used to be men, are offended...

Twice this year I've watched the trans community go after much-beloved, long-standing subcultures treasured by lesbians and gay men: MichFest and Drag. And they've won.

Ironic that the first major win of the trans community was against lesbians and feminists, two groups that would have never considered voting against their rights. And now drag. I wonder how long the LGB community is going to sigh and put up with it.

Also, what the heck is a "trans drag performer"? Doesn't that go against everything that drag is supposed to be, it's very definition? A trans woman dressed up and lip-syching and dancing to a pop song isn't performing drag. She's performing pageantry.

Why are drag performers letting trans people redefine what drag is?

::rats:: *its

How is this different from the NYC St. Patrick's Day Parade banning gay groups from marching?

It's not. (And, not only did they finally stop doing that this year, their governing board booted out the hardliner chairman a couple weeks ago.)

A Pride parade/march is about standing up for "non-standard" gender/sexuality/presentation, society's gender outlaws, so to speak. Who's better qualified to represent a piece of that than a drag queen?

Oh, good grief. Who do they think were the initial warriors in the forefront of the battles for LGBT Pride in the first place? It was the drag queens with uncommon courage and guts in the face of oppression, that’s who. We are none of us free until *all* of us are free. Someone needs to learn what “inclusion” means because we are all in this together.

Ah Scotland.. Not a good look. Petty, one could say. And bitchy.

So now it's LGBTQIA+?

Dan, you've been known to coin a term now and again. What say we come up with: a word. An all-encompassing word to take the place of this ever-increasing acronym. Inclusivity is lovely and all, but pretty soon we're going to be singing the alphabet song every time we want to discuss these issues.

The world needs a word, Dan. Be the one to give it to us.

#13: "Queer."

@13: LGBTQIA-D

Obviously, what is needed here is that we jettison gay pride celebrations for gay pride observances where we all sit quietly, preferably on metal folding chairs, in a windowless room with faulty fluorescent lighting. If possible, the room should have poor ventilation and be uncomfortably warm. There could be some pitchers of room temperature water - ice might offend those of the LGBTQIA+?%^* community who are sensitive to global warming issues or who need dental work. And there could be a talking stick. But anyone who says anything offensive will have their stick privileges taken away.

Its funny how biologically born women are criticized for being uncomfortable with trans women in their spaces, but trans women get to uncomfortable with everrrrrything. Nevermind trying to set back women's rights by making it very clear that we are NOT all the same in their minds (even tho we are, thanks guys!). I am not opposed to people living how they want to live but coming into another group's space, declaring it your own, and then proceeding to dictate to the masses what is and isn't appropriate because they are the most special little snowflakes of all is fucking INFURIATING. Look lady, do what you like, but you're getting a little uppity over there. Take a fucking xanax already.

The hilarious thing is that this is likely 100 or fewer super PC anarchist people who are going to stand around congratulating each other on their "free" celebration which isn't going to be any fun because no one will go and no one is having a good time. Who wants to party with humorless people? Not me.

This isn't the main Glasgow Pride event. The "Free Pride" event was planned when the regular pride event decided to ask for a small cover charge.

Any trans folks care to weigh in? I was unaware of trans people--or women, for that matter--having an issue with drag. As a cis male, it never occurred to me to be upset at drag kings. I have always thought of drag and genderfuck as playfully subversive commentaries on gender norms. I don't see how that conflicts with trans issues, and I've never heard any trans people express any such view.

Am I missing something?

Quick, somebody dig me a cistern to catch all the cisgender tears flowing here!! We are in a drought and could use the water.

Oh, I don't think there's any tears flowing here. After all, this is just a fringe group that is throwing the same sort of glamor fit that the people who wanted the Seattle Pride Parade to stay on Broadway did when it moved downtown. If anything, it's just bemusement at the Seattleblahs-esque reaction to something that is no big deal. Drama for the sake of drama.

Everyone's so easily offended these days that it just makes me want to be offensive because I'm offended by their offense.

In other news, the People's Front of Judea has passed a motion barring the Judean People's Front from their next protest march.

So exactly how rare orchid do you need to be in order to enjoy the 'safe' space provided? Because a group of fringier-than-thou queers deciding who can and cannot participate not only sounds like a good way to reject the already rejected, it also sounds like a really shitty party.

I am transgender, and I'd sooner stand with my drag brothers and sisters than play shitty respectability games or stab anyone in the back. This is disgraceful.

I am transgender and I'd sooner stand with my drag brothers and sisters than play shitty respectability games any day.

I think Rebus should get onto this, Glasgow is his turf after all.

I'm trans too and I think it's a shame that they're keeping drag out, and for such shitty reasons too. This sort of in-fighting gets us nowhere, and like Dan mentions, there are lots of trans people who take part in drag anyway.

Gonna borrow the words of trans internet celebrity* Bailey Jay and tell the organizers of this event: "you've gone too far down the Tumblr rabbit hole boo".


*"internet celebrity" in this case means that she's a household name on 4chan. basically the usual degenerates will be posting pornography and then someone will post a picture of her and then the thread will turn into a 200+ post discussion of whether or not it's gay for a guy to screw a trans girl who hasn't had bottom surgery. happens a lot. it's amusing.

They better leave the High Heel Drag Queen Race in Dupont Circle the fuck alone!

And frankly any party that Dame Edna can't headline sounds like a bore.

I love the word "transmisogynistic". I want to append trans to the front of all adjectives from now on. I won't because I know that members of the community can be transdelicate about some things, and I wouldn't want to make anyone transneedlessly upset.

@31. It's a good one.
I'm thinking we need to pen a letter to the non- binary caucus, demanding a name change for their little get together.
Pride, should not occur in their name. It implies All queer( we can substitute this now Dan? ), people would be eligible to participate, as performers.

@22 - offensensitivity

http://www.gocomics.com/bloomcounty/1982…

jade@8: it seems like a stretch to say that trans activists had much to do with MichFest shutting down. For better or worse, Vogel and the other core organizers held a consistent line about trans participation there for several decades and didn't seem to have any intention of changing their minds. Vogel's statement announcing the end of the festival gave no particular reason; it's just as likely that after 40 years she wanted to retire.

There is a quote circulating on social media right now; it is meant to poke fun at NRA/KKK/Tea party types, but it applies here as well:

"Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted" [Emerson]

The existance and acceptance of drag acts might make some non-binary people uncomfortable - it's been making squares uncomfortable for generations - but their discomfort doesn't invalidate their identity. There seems to be an odd thought virus going through progressive circles that personal validation is a Right, rather than something that is earned through conduct.

@ 20, dig your own damn hole.

As a trans woman I feel compelled to add my opinion. I personally detest drag, it kept me away from transitioning for years. I feel it is offensive to all women, trans or cis. But that said, it shouldn't be banned. Nothing should. Pride is a celebration of human diversity and we're all a part of the rainbow. I agree with the first commenter, drag is tired and incredibly corny and should be banned because of that. Trans people don't need to be hugboxed like this and it only creates more bad blood with the general population

@19: Trans gal here checking in. Thank you for asking! It's much easier to just point and laugh at "those oversensitive trans people" than it is to actually understand why the offense is occurring.

Personally, drag queens skeeve me the fuck out. I wouldn't go so far as to agitate for their exclusion, but I also wouldn't shed a tear if they went away. They are like a funhouse-mirror version of what I have been trying to do my whole life and can trigger my gender dysphoria pretty hard (e.g. "There's a drag queen...oh my god, do I look like that to people?").

I also find it problematic that drag queens are typically the MCs of Pride events, certainly in Seattle. It makes it seem as though drag queens are the face of queerdom, and a lot of people aren't smart enough to distinguish between drag performers and actual trans people. I'm concerned that it gives people a reason to dismiss my identity as a mere performance.

@17, trans women have a right to be in women's spaces, because we are women. If cis women are uncomfortable with that, well, I'm sorry, there isn't much that I can do. However, trans women being uncomfortable with drag queens is not the same thing. Cis drag queens get to take the costume off whenever they want and retreat to the snuggly bosom of cis privilege; I don't have that luxury. Drag is something you do; trans is something you are.

Also, I don't pretend to speak for all trans people, and I'd caution everyone here (who is currently running with the "perpetually offended trans person" trope) to remember that we aren't all of one mind. This is just my perspective, and I hope it explains what may have led to this whole kerfuffle.

DoctorMemory@34. Make no mistake; they had a lot to do with Lisa deciding to retire now, and she chose her words very carefully in her statement:

For many of us this one week in the woods is the all too rare place and time where we experience validation for our female bodies...

She just had the class not to point fingers. But yes, she tried to appease them for decades, even going so far as to say that trans women who came to fest wouldn't be asked to leave. But she stayed true to her original intent for decades, refusing to remove the wording that the festival is intended only for women born women (all others are not invited), and the trans community (and their appeasing allies) badgered, protested, and threatened for decades. They hounded musicians (and their sponsors) who agreed to play at the festival. They hounded LGBT activist corporations to publicly denounce the festival. They trolled websites of gay activists who dared defend the "women born women" intent (and most of them, sadly, were cowed). As a result, musicians became hard to attract. As a result, attendance suffered. And the trans community's cheering and gloating at Lisa's announcement was enough to pretty much make me apathetic to their plight (something I've never been).

Like I said, the trans community's first major win was to bring about the end of a beloved, lesbian/feminist music festival. A festival that's enormously important to a community that (as a rule) wouldn't think twice about voting for trans civil rights. But probably will now. By ruining something that really--in all truth--isn't all that important to them, they've lost allies who'd otherwise have helped them fight for rights that actually are important to them. They (and their allies) are fools.

They're now going after drag because drag queens like to use the word "tranny" to define their subculture and refuse to stop. Men (gay or otherwise) are usually less appeasing than woman, so maybe they'll stay stronger against the onslaught than we were. I guess it all depends on what RuPaul decides to do.

@39: is there any actual headcount data to suggest that attendance at mich was down significantly over the last few years? AFAIK Vogel owns the land outright, so while losing acts and sponsors might be annoying, I would think that in the end it's ticket sales that determined its financial viability.

(Uh, I'm a cis male who never did or was going to attend, so hopefully obviously these are non-rhetorical questions that I do not know the answers to.)

"Unfortunately this also appears to have offended trans drag performers. We did not in any way mean to equate cis (who are often seen as transmisogynistic by some portions of the Trans community) drag performers with trans drag performers. We would like to explicitly state that while we attempt to include everyone, we have always, and will always aim to put the needs and voices of the most marginalised first."

SOME portions of the trans community? There are always going to SOME people with an extreme beef about something. In San Francisco, there are some transwomen who are upset at other transwomen for being too pretty, and therefore being conformist. There are lesbians who think all transwomen are an insult to "real" women. We have faux queens (biological women who perform with exaggerated hair and make-up like drag queens) whom some drag queens believe don't believe should be allowed to share the same stage.

I've gotten so tired of the "more oppressed than thou" mentality.

Look, I recognize that many of us have different experiences based on "privilege." As a gay man, I've experienced some forms of discrimination. As a white man, I haven't experienced things that other friends who are black or women or trans* have faced. It's incumbent on me to not dismiss their experiences just because I haven't personally experienced it or witnessed it.

But that's not what's going on here. If you were to poll all transpeople in Glasgow, I bet 95% would have no problem with cis drag queens from performing. But a tiny minority within a minority feels the need to dictate which other minorities are sufficiently oppressed.

Free Glasgow Pride's attendance will likely be in shambles because of this.

Cannibalization within the LGBT community has been growing fairly steadily from what I've seen. It's no longer fun to stand together against people who want to see gay/bi/lesbian/trans people marginalized, have their rights either blocked or taken away from them - jailed and killed ... oh no, now it's super edgy and the mark of a TRUE activist to turn on your own camp.

The crazy religious right fanatics calling for your head have been dealt with - time to tell the gay guys next to you at the bar that their cis white privilege is disgusting and they should go F themselves. Time to throw stones at RuPaul for saying the word "tranny" as if she's Pat Robertson or hasn't earned the right to take that term and use it as she sees fit, considering she's been doing her thing since before me & my fellow Tumblr generation entitled assholes were even fertilized. Time to unleash a barrage of hate-filled tweets at a celebrity for daring to assign their infant a gender when it should be THE BABY'S CHOICE!!11 Time to call longstanding gay advocate comedians filthy homophobes for saying a homophobic word in the context of a joke shining the light on actual homophobic people who say it without irony.

Ugh. It's exhausting. Everyone has the power to control if they're offended. If you don't have the common sense or the minimum critical thinking skills to analyze a situation and look at intent or history or the fact that people aren't f'ing psychic and don't know what someone's pronoun preference is ... I don't know. Stay home? Get smarter? I don't honestly know what you should do if you lack these skills other than not engage with me in any way until you figure it out.

Thank you, pink @25, brad @28, high @37, and seilo @38. As bisexual I find it necessary to chime in with a little reason and nuance whenever the topic is them angry bisexuals, because some small faction of militants is making a big noise on behalf of the rest of us.

Having attended events with transwomen that included drag, it was news to me that there was antagonism in some circles. I appreciate the real discomfort or distress that a perceived equivalence between a drag performer (a kind of gender 'clown') and a trans person (revealing therir true gender) would create. But it is nice to see that even those here who are made uncomfortable, are not substantiating the absolutist radicalism that is shown in this posting.

Perhaps in the near future, as trans awareness continues to become more normative, the distinction between trans and drag will be better understood by the broader population, and everyone will be able to tell the difference between what RuPaul is doing and who Laverne Cox is.

[fetish @35, nice quote.]

ps to @39: I guess what I'm getting at here is that there's a qualitative difference between "I'm tired of this shit" and "michfest is no longer sustainable as an enterprise." I wouldn't presume to guess how much of the former fed into Vogel's decision to pack it in (maybe some, maybe none, maybe all!), but I'm honestly dubious that a bunch of noisy trans activists could have suddenly achieved the latter as long as Vogel felt like keeping the show going.

Seilo, thank you. At last some understanding of why this has happened.
Still, it is not appropriate to do this at a Pride event.

Dr Memory, if the organizer / patrons/ musicians of this event were harassed over many years, it's easy to see why she has stopped.
Cis women do have a right to congregate without trans women, if they want to bond over their cis ness. I find it offensive that trans women couldn't/ wouldn't see that.
Include me, Include me, like children in some playground game.

Hey, it's up to them whether or not they want to exclude cis drag performers (to what extent do trans and non-binary and cis really even qualify when talking about a drag show, something which has a core element of gender-fuckery?), but they should know full well that they're not just excluding cis drag performers, they're also excluding everyone sharp enough to not support a pride celebration that leaves out an entire group which was on the front lines of all of this for decades. "Sorry, drag performers, I know that you've been the ones doing the heavy lifting for queers for decades but I'm afraid your place at pride has been moved to a spot that we like to call 'bus tire adjacent.'"

The response to this, I can only hope, is not that cis drag performers get up in arms, as much as I trust that anyone doing drag can get up in arms in the best of ways. A sharper response might be to accept that Glasgow doesn't want drag performers or, presumably, people who support drag performers as welcome elements of pride. Okay, Glasgow, it's a deal. I wasn't planning on going to Glasgow any time soon and it looks like that won't be changing, you hang out in your drag-free bubble all day if you want while the rest of us move on with pride with all its members, regardless of whether or not some might feel like their exclusionary bubble is being "violated" by having other people there who--horror of horrors!--might see drag performances as critiquing gender roles rather than enforcing some sort of weird Tumblr-phobic hierarchy.

@45 Yeah, cis women can congregate without transwomen all day, what they can't do is expect that they can do that all day and still expect that transwomen will consider them to be supportive. "Well gee, just because there's a sign on the door saying whites only doesn't mean that black people should get upset. I find it offensive that they couldn't/wouldn't see that, they're childish!" So sorry you feel offended that transwomen reject that TERF-y bullshit or that cissexuality ranks among the dumbest excuses for "bonding" I've ever heard. They can bond over having had your same plumbing all their lives until they're blue in the face but those big wet crocodile tears about how other people are big fat meanies for calling them what they are (trans-exclusionary, by their own admission) are the only sympathy they'll be getting from the rest of us. Cry me a river.

Doctor Memory, I worry that I'm hijacking this conversation, making it about MichFest, when it's about drag, so I'll respond and then let it go.

I'm sure that there is data, but I don't have the numbers. I just know this from attending Fest, and hanging out on the old message boards and Facebook groups. Every year, without fail, they'd arrive in droves on the boards and harass and harangue. Camp Trans is one thing, but they'd invade our space and interrupt and troll. It's like they thought they could bully their way in.

As I said earlier, they made it extremely hard for musicians to perform (someone I know once posted, "MichFest has announced its line-up; go here [link] to learn which bands to boycott"). The most famous example is the Indigo Girls, who took shit for so long they finally decided to stop performing.

At festival their many allies would wear "trans women belong here" t-shirts (I wasn't there, but was told that one year they all got up on the stage during a performance and stood there in those damn shirts). We couldn't escape the conversation about it. Lisa allowed them to have workshops to discuss it and "process," as women are wont to do, but that was never enough. I couldn't get through a workshift without yet another 25 year old wanting to talk about the trans issue.

Finally, two large gay rights organizations felt the need to say publicly that they "condemn" the festival's intent. HRC and Equality Michigan, I believe, but don't take that as gospel.

I don't think this problem was the only reason Lisa retired, and I apologize for misspeaking if I said that earlier, but I think it was a major one. The fact that she didn't turn the festival over to anyone else says a lot.

Here's a link to a very well-written article about it, if you're interested. The woman who wrote the article was treated pretty harshly on Twitter for being transphobic.

http://www.curvemag.com/News/Michigan-Wo…

Fascinating how this was something a local group in Glasgow did, via their trans and non-binary caucus and outside of the main Pride, and somehow everyone here is transferring their venom almost exclusively onto trans women, even going so far as to derail the comments with blather about MichFest. Not to mention that the mainstream gay press is all too happy to fan the flames with incomplete and inaccurate reporting, followed by Dan sliding down a slippery slope, much like the ones he derides others for. Well played, cisgender friends.

All I can say is this: if they want to be exclusionary, let them. They have excellent role models in the greater LGBTQ orgs and Pride events worldwide. I find it absolutely amazing that "gaystream" orgs that take money from exploitative companies (Nike, which supports TPP) and even those involved recently in felonies (JP Morgan) that throw the poor under the bus, then charge them admission to their own Pride festivals have anything to say about this at all. I hope this brings up a greater conversation about hypocrisy and the selling out of our community by a bunch of people who turn a blind eye in order to pay their own salaries and have a party. The well is already poisoned, and has been for years. How about some outrage for the economically disadvantaged in the LGBTQ community first at the hands of our "leaders"?

@46, you having a go at me or putting the excuses up that I'd have to deal with if I ever confronted a trans* activist?
Whatever. How is bonding over our ciss ness in any way a problem? Hate to break it to trans*women, again.. But they are not cis women and no matter how many times they stamp their feet, they will never be cis women.
So like, Back off.

@50. It's the standard type of response. It's meant to shame us (and it works a LOT, which is why they go there so often).

There was a discussion about this on AmericaBlog, and a transwoman actually referred to the fight as a "Trans Arab Spring." Seriously, she compared not being welcome at a music festival with the oppression of the people in Egypt.

I assume that most of these people, including those "possibly offended" by drag in Glasgow are people who have never, ever experienced real discrimination in their lives.

@13 GIBLETS

I am offended. Cis women have welcomed trans*women, now what?
You want to eradicate our cisness?
I'd gladly share all those monthly periods with you. Though, thank mercy, I'm done with them now.
Or how about pushing the baby out. Yeah. My six labours, all yours.
Enough of this bullying on ciswomen by trans*women.

@48: My post makes it very clear that banning drag (and then just cis drag) was the actions of a small chunk of a breakaway org—and I then I engaged with their reasoning.

Jade; I get that impression big time, reading stuff on SL. How trans* women are very creative in their verbal and otherwise bullying tactics.
I hope ciswomen find another venue to have a big meet. And I hope the trans* women will give them the respect to let them meet.
This sort of stuff is not visible here. Australian women have their ciswomen only stuff.
Still called Women Only, here. No big music festival, though. That never happened.
I just feel this feminist rage stirring in my belly about this shit. Ciswomen just have to stand their ground.

Dan, we should stop meeting like this. People will talk.

@50 "How is bonding over our ciss ness in any way a problem?" Good question, the answer being that if you didn't have to "put up with" transwomen (you poor thing!), you would not be bonding over your cis-ness because it would never occur to you, you'd just bond over being female. Before the advent of transsexual liberation, the general narrative of females bonding with one another was the support of females of many walks of life with different background experiences coming together as women. Then some male-bodied people came along and said that they had felt female their whole lives, that they were not going to be shamed into acting the part of men any more, and far from saying "Hey, there might be something to this, maybe transwomen have something to bring to the table," some feminists (unfortunately quite a number of them at first) declared transwomen to be sexist phonies, that something inherent about being cis magically made their struggles distinct even as transwomen dealt with the same or worse.

Barring reproductive issues (I can think of not a single transwoman who has ever expressed anything but support for reproductive rights) and some issues with childhood expectations (which transwomen, again, are not only supportive of but have it worse than cisgendered people), transwomen have the same issues. More issues, even.

But that isn't even the point. The point for me isn't to state that you unequivocally MUST let them in, that they have a right to be there, or anything like that, because no, they don't have a right to barge in and demand that all cis women everywhere recognize transwomen as being their equals or as being "real" women. The point is that you don't have a right to expect zero criticism for your behavior. You can't expect to not be called out on being a TERF when your arguments are all the same and you've basically made TERF arguments, that's not how it works. If transwomen must "stamp their feet" in order to even get by in this world then by god they better stamp their feet hard enough to raise the dead, because you don't get to dictate whether or not they matter when it comes to women, or gender issues in general, or queer issues, or whatever else the case may be. So, as much as you hate to break it to me that transwomen aren't cis women (wow, what a revelation), I hate to break it to you (actually no I don't, you're a big girl and can handle this) that cis women don't get to dictate transwomen's lives any more than transwomen get to dictate cis women's lives or the "reality" of their situation, cis or otherwise.

So don't go crying about how the transwomen have tried barging into your space; TERFs have been left behind in this whole issue for good reason, as transwomen have come into their own and created their own space without TERFs. If you want to have your safe space away from transwomen, okay, but don't cry when people are grossed out by your attitude and behavior, you made your bed and now you're going to have to lie in it. There are worse things by far on this Earth than having to share space with someone different than you; transwomen put up with TERFs for ages and they're still around despite the odds, so I'm sure you as a TERF can stick around despite the crushing agony of someone having been born a male.

@51 No shit you're going to get shamed. Plenty of people are trans, or have trans friends and family who care about them and support them. Excluding them from your circles is going to gross people out, other cis women included. Transwomen aren't just sitting around fabricating other people's rejection of the TERF hierarchy, some people are actually just not really big fans of people who can't cope with transwomen being treated like--or worse, speaking as--women. It's one thing to be shamed for something you don't have control over or can't hide. It's another thing to be shamed for your behavior towards other people. For my part, I hope transwomen leave you alone about your safe spaces and leave TERFs in their own little bubble, maybe you'll stay there. I also hope that transwomen offer to include TERFs in their own circles and spaces and lives, and use TERFs as an opportunity to learn what not to do, and how not to behave. TERFs have no reasonable expectation of sympathy from queers or allies.

These conversations are never going to go anywhere until this vocal minority of self-righteous trans women recognize that there is a very important and overwhelming privilege that comes with being born male, whether you are trans or not, and that "cis" women (i hate that binary term) experience profound and unique oppression that a trans woman only begins to grasp unless she has the fortune of transitioning at an incredibly young age. Cis women have been fighting openly for over a hundred years now against a mind-bogglingly deep and all-encompassing oppression that we have been constantly belittled for calling out. For naming the unnamed. Part of the unnamed is that a lot of trans women, particularly those early in their transition, still REEK of male entitlement. You can't escape a childhood of being subtley treated by adults and society as superior to girls, subtley encouraged to speak out and take what you want while cis girls are subtley and not-so-subtley encouraged to sit down, shut up, and make peace... even if you know you're not really a boy and even if you experience the other, unique oppressions that go with being trans. Priveleges do NOT cancel each other out. (Intersectionality, anyone?) Until the trans community can get itself in order about the increasingly common bullying and silencing tactics (almost ALWAYS employed against "cis" women, not men, or perhaps men just don't put up with it) that those of us who have been fighting the patriarchy tooth and claw our WHOLE lives recognize all too well, then there will never be peace and understanding. And there will always be tension about including trans women in women-only spaces.

I am a transmasculine female but I still identify as a woman in large part precisely because of that shared socialization experience and oppression that most young trans women seem to grasp almost as poorly as the men. That's what "bonding over cisness" really means; it has very little to do with plumbing (although the actual possibility of pregnancy is nowhere near as trivial as some of the commenters here seem to think it is; it's certainly something that *terrifies* me in the far-too-likely event that I am raped).

Incedentally, I decided I'm going to attend MichFest this final year (something I'd never considered before precisely because of the trans exclusion issue) because, with or without trans inclusion, I have no idea where else I will be able to find an all-woman space like that and I want to experience it. It makes me sad that this issue couldn't have been resolved more productively. No one wins here.

@59 It's a particularly rich and unpleasant irony that TERFs consider themselves bullied and silenced when that is essentially the bottom line of the lives of transwomen everywhere. For the longest time, TERFs ruled the day and transwomen were at the bottom of the intersectional feminist totem pole and now that they are asserting their own value and having that value mirrored by other elements of society, by some weird alchemy they are painted as oppressors, and somehow are expected to believe that bald-faced transmisogyny is acceptable because it comes from cis women who have suffered under patriarchy longer, and therefore feel justified in some sort of social revenge against transwomen, who for the longest time had zero social capital anyways. Now they're the ones who are hurt because transwomen as a whole were not having any of it? I'm distinctly reminded of the straight people who went on TV and declared that the gays were bullying them into silence just by being around and not being complicit in their own marginalization. By the way, intersectionality implies that you actually give a shit about groups other than merely your own, by way of recognizing that the root of the issues which are faced socially by various minority groups is the way in which society has been set up thus far. It is in no way an excuse to cry foul over one group making itself known.

You might call that male privilege peeking through, of them reaching out and taking what they want because they are still men. This is a flimsy excuse at best to critique transwomen and indeed pretty much any minority, trans or otherwise, for demanding respect rather than merely asking for it and shying away when it is invariably not given. Respect and equal treatment are not petitioned for on bended knee, and as much as equal treatment might not stem from browbeating either, having the nerve to stand up for yourself in spite of social resistance, resentment, and violence is far from wrong just because it might "reek of male entitlement."

Let's be clear, TERFs are not being silenced (this thread is proof enough of that) and if they're being bullied, it certainly would be a bizarre reversal of fortune, because it has been transpeople who have been excluded from cis spaces since before there was even a term for them. Compared to that, the entire world is a cis safe space. Even when transwomen leave those safe spaces alone, it's not enough for TERFs. It's either 'problematic' for transwomen to even share the same space as cis women or else their exclusion is "a shame" but somehow has merit.

Since I've said more than enough on this already, I'll end on a good note. It might make you sad because you think that the issue has not been resolved more productively, but I don't see it that way. I think it's been more than productive. In being rejected from women's-only spaces for a long time, transwomen learned the hard/awful/ugly/real way that cis radfems would not liberate or support transwomen, or indeed anyone trans, out of the goodness of their hearts, but rather would be allies only when the trans community decided to get itself in order and assert itself as a force in the world just as feminism and other queers had done. The rest of us queers have had our day in the spotlight, at the front lines of the social project of personal liberation, and now the transgender, transsexual, genderqueer, etc among us are being at last recognized in some capacity. There is so much left to be done, but they learned well from radical feminists for decades that nobody would do it for them, just as nobody did it for the radical feminists or the other queers or any other group, and in its own way, that is productivity. If some radical feminists still are unable to accept that, I certainly won't be the one demanding their approval, and I hope that no transwoman will expect or even desire their approval at this point because history has shown that it isn't worth it. Certainly any given transwoman has dealt with far worse in her life than a TERF's disapproval, and I applaud any out-and-proud transwoman who will go on without the approval of holdovers from second-wave feminists. As transwomen keep standing up for themselves, I can't help but think that if that isn't productive, I don't know what is. So no, it isn't that nobody wins here. Trans people and the people who support them, cis women included, win here, and if that's them being self-righteous, too bad. Fuck concern trolling.

Really? The entire world is a cis safe space. Tell that to the cis women in the Middle East, the girls and women who get raped, , the women killed by their spouse, the women humiliated because they need to get an abortion.
Cis women have the right to congregate and not include trans*women, if they are seeking to bond and gain strength from each other. You can throw whatever little group of letters around that you like, isn't going to change the fact that the experiences of being a ciswoman are not the same experiences as being a trans* woman.
Trans* women will lose more and more the support of cis women, if they don't hear that.
So what's stopping trans* women from getting a music festival going? Allow yourselves to bond over your trans* ness.

@42: Absolutely. It's like the French Revolution. Gotten rid of all the oppressive nobles? Time to scour the ranks of the loyal revolutionaries to see which ones aren't revolutionary enough!

Silly me, I always thought at least part of the purpose of drag was to make people uncomfortable, to serve as the geiger counter that goes off when the wand is waved at the self-righteous and pompous.

"But if we can't get used to each other—if certain segments of the queer community can't tolerate certain other segments of the queer community—what kind of a message does that send the straight majority?"

Oh, yeh, that's just rich. Let's not remember HR 3685 (Barney Frank's 2007 trans-exclusionary ENDA bill), HRC's long trans-exclusionary history, or the constant erasure of trans women's involvement at Stonewall. One little alt-pride celebration doesn't invite cisgender drag queens on stage and clutch yer pearls cause here comes those Ru Paul hatin' tranny fascists coming to take all our prides away.

@62 None of that is because they are cis, and that's violence done to cis people by cis people. If that "little group of letters" was so little and so small then you wouldn't be crying persecution, and if trans people were so inherently different, you'd think they would just automatically repulse cis women everywhere, as if we as cis people have some sort of anti-trans spider sense or something. I always agreed that cis women can have their space, by all means live it up, and trans people can have their space free of you and me as well. The problem comes when you try and exclude trans people while also expecting that people will respect you as a radical or welcoming element for other minority groups. One cannot be both intersectional and also trans-exclusionary, the two are mutually exclusive. It's kind of like if you said that you're cool with racial minorities but you want a whites-only music festival. You can have it, it's just... well, it's shit, isn't it?

Skin colour is a totally totally different thing, and you guys throwing that in, know it.
And I don't feel I have to put my mind thru mental hoops to justify my position. Cis women have the right to congregate and not include trans* women. I have stated why, to bond and to gain strength from each other- that's it.

@67 I'm one person, not multiple people. You missed the point; it wasn't to change it to race, just to point out the power dynamics inherent here and why TERFs are the assholes, not transwomen. The vast majority of women worldwide, feminists included, are cis women. They hold way more power than transwomen do on an institutional level, regardless of whether or not they suffer under patriarchy, and although their problems are different, they're still actually safer and lead easier lives than transwomen. That doesn't mean the issues are the same, they aren't, but to explicitly leave them out of women's solidarity and efforts to strengthen women doesn't make women's liberation stronger, just nastier.

Of course you don't feel you have to put your mind through mental hoops to justify your position. You don't have to put your mind through anything more complex than "cis good, trans bad" to reach your conclusion. Why bother exercising inclusion or critical thought on an issue that can so simply be solved by plugging your ears? Whatever, I'm done holding your hand through the basics of intersectionality. Go "bond" yourself silly with your fellow TERFs and gain whatever strength you feel that brings you.

@57: So if a bunch of "cis" women want to have a private group discussion about their experiences with menstruation, menopause, and childbirth, how long will it take before some transwomen object that they're being excluded from the discussion? Are you going to claim that "reproductive issues" are just a trivial part of their experience?

I'm not suggesting trans* women be left out of all women's get togethers. Where did I say that?
No it's not nasty. And because you are not a ciswoman, you don't know what I'm talking about. A certain sort of energy is created, if only ciswomen are together.
Women, who from birth and in their total biological makeup, are women.
Like when cis males do their drum groups or sweat whatever's, a certain energy is created.
Gee, and where are the trans* men , clamouring to be in their groups. Sabotaging their meets, threatening the musicians, scratching cars.
Trans*women, are doing themselves no service if they can't hear.
You'll find, over time, Cis women will say the words, their hearts won't be in it.
Because trans* women won't back off.
Won't accept that yes, we can stand side by side, as long as it is mutual respect and consideration.

Enatai, I don't want any negative emotions in my heart for trans* people.
And I work hard emotionally, to work thru this rage that gets activated.
This Feminist rage. Cause, you know, it's complicated. Still the outcome looks suspiciously similar.
Women , Ciz Women, being told by an outside group how they have to behave. What they should think. How to fucking Be.
I won't add to the pain of trans* people, we got to find ways though, to live harmoniously together. That ain't gonna happen, if Ciz Women, how they feel, what they require to stay fucking sane, or semi sane, are ignored.

@69 No, in fact I specifically specified in my first and second posts that reproductive issues are limited to cis women (and transitioning transmen). Transwomen are not a part of that conversation, inherently so. But nobody ever specified reproductive issues, rather "bonding" and "strength."

@70 "I'm not suggesting trans* women be left out of all women's get togethers. Where did I say that?" Boy you pretty strongly implied that you didn't want transwomen as part of your get-togethers. In fact you outright stated as much. And yes, it's nasty, gender essentialism is basically nasty when sociopolitical (but primarily social) groups declaring themselves to be the arbiters or channelers of "real womanhood" state unequivocally that there is something super special about being a woman that means that transwomen aren't even given a say, that IS nasty! It's absolutely nasty! For the record, if anyone invited me to some sort of "drum circle" or "sweat lodge" just for men and specifically excluded transmen, I'd tell them to blow it out their ass. What the hell kind of energy would I get from drumming with just other cis guys? What, do their penises somehow make their drumming better? Am I supposed to reflect on the fact that I was born with male parts more while I'm sitting in a sweat lodge? That's not even a men's thing, those are American Indian ceremonies, way to totally dismiss another race's culture.

Cis women are being ignored? You think transwomen are drowning out cis women's voices? You really think that on a planet with 7+ billion people where a full half of them are cis women and only a tiny fraction are transwomen, that your voice as a cis woman is going to be drowned out by a transwoman? And that's worthy of your anger, your punishment of transwomen? That justifies you being an ass? I've been pretty cordial this entire time but I don't know why, you haven't earned it.

Fuck you! Fuck you asking transwomen to back off, fuck your misplaced anger, fuck your separate but equal BS, fuck your "cis energy," fuck you even thinking you've earned transwomen's respect. Why on Earth anyone would want to be a part of your get-togethers, I haven't the slightest clue, but thank goodness you would spare transwomen the exasperating ordeal of having to put up with this shit! You're a better ally to transwomen than I would have ever guessed. If I have anger it's because I've known people like you, people who hurt and belittle and reject others going through a hard time and then play the victim like you aren't just being a hypocrite, and as much as I might have come across as a condescending ass today, I've clearly laid out every reason why TERFs have basically been hypocritical and nasty, I explained until I was repeating myself and yet still you play the part of the poor radfem who is just ganged up on by every awful transwoman who wants to, I don't know, vampire away your feminine energy. Whatever, why am I wasting my time with you? Asshole. Alright, I'm done, I'll piss off, I'm tired of expending energy on someone like you.

@33 "Offensensitivity." Perfect!

Bloom County is the best!

And let the infighting begin:

"Women's College Cancels Annual Production of The Vagina Monologues ... because Eve Ensler's 1996 play isn't inclusive of the experience of trans women who don't have vaginas and trans men who do."

http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…

"Ahh, wake up and smell the patriarchy." This was said by a long-time MichFest performer the morning after Lisa announced the closing of the festival. At the time, as angry as I was, I thought it was a bit harsh, a little below the belt. I don't anymore. And now everyone here can see why.

As a trans drag performer, I really hope that the others who and successfully demanded their right to be on stage use it to grab the mic and go off in defense of our cis co-performers. I feel like surely this will happen and just hope someone posts the video.

@LavaGirl you are wrong, you are simply wrong.

And I have no great fondness for trans women--some trans women may dislike drag queens but those women dislike crossdressers even more.

@Enatai - As someone who has clashed with LG over similar issues before, I wish to extend a gentle pat on your back. Please do not waste your energy or your good intentions. She has proven time and time again that she is hopelessly block-headed over trans* issues and simply cannot comprehend even the simplest of explanations, no matter how kindly or sincerely given. She has even declared that she would no longer voice her blinkered 'opinions' on several occasions, and yet she cannot seem to prevent her foot from forcibly meeting her mouth every damn time the subject comes up. Unfortunately, there is no point in beating your hands against this particular brick wall. Rest, friend.

@sanguisuga It somehow does not surprise me that this isn't the first time she's clashed with people over this. It's 2015; trans exclusion among feminist circles might not be dead, but it's dying more and more with every transwoman who turns out to actually care about women's issues, since it's part and parcel of being a transwoman in the first place. In any case, no worries, I figured out that it wasn't going to go anywhere. Hopefully not too many other people will feel the need to correct her if she isn't ready to be corrected or to have a conversation about it, but that's just the way things work out sometimes. Thanks for the heads-up.

Oh. Because I have a point of view that I have expressed before, I am a brick wall.
I hope feminists are welcoming trans* women, my intention is not to alienate them, just not join them in their delusions.
To sabotage the Cis women's only music festival, was dispicable. That will and probably has alienated a lot of women. It was mean spirited and as I said above, showed no understanding of Cis women at all.
But the intention is not to understand Cis women, is it? The intention is to steamroll over us, telling us what it is to be a woman. Our experiences, the ones we have that trans* women don't have, should be shelved. The names of our body parts changed.
Our very existence trivialized.

I've always thought the other key point to pride events is that queer-types don't take themselves that seriously. We have a sense of humor about our sexuality and we enjoy the free expression of that sexuality in any form. Oiled up twinks in sequined jockstraps and leather daddies don't go to pride parades so much to give everyone boners, they do it to be absurd. (Yes, there are boners to be had though.) Homophobes see a pride parade as a sex-fest. They see gyrating muscle-bound guys as essentially a strip act. They think we're all getting collectively aroused. When really its all tongue-in-cheek and meant to express the culture by displaying its most absurd boundaries.

The fundamental conceit of drag queens, the most basic reason that it's entertaining, is that its "a man in a dress." Men in dresses are funny because its unexpected, its gender-bendy, its absurd in our nominal culture. This simple "joke" enables a lot of different kinds of expressions of humor and performance.

Transwomen aren't "men in dresses" though, they are women. By saying that drag queens should be stopped because they implicitly mock transwomen is to say that a transwoman is just a man in a dress, like a drag queen (which is not true!).

Equating them in this way (like these people at Free Pride would do) is implicitly saying that a man in a dress who acts silly (i.e. a drag queen) must be making fun of transwomen.

This isn't to say there aren't drag queen out there who denigrate our trans brothers and sisters. Use of the t-slur by drag queens used to be almost a given, but is rare to see now (in my casual observation of small-town drag queens). No one wants a transphobic drag queen (or king), and there's no pride event which would have one. This sentiment that drag queens (or maybe only drag done by cis-gendered performers?) MUST be anti-trans shows a lot of victim-mentality and even more ignorance about why drag exists.

LG, you are a brick wall because you steadfastly refuse to even entertain the idea that you just *might* be mistaken, especially because soooo many unique individuals have pointed out that very thing to you, using varying degree of understanding and civility. This idea that you're clinging to that somehow transwomen are going to erase ciswomen out of existence is patently absurd! As if there's a finite amount of feminine "energy" out in the universe that they're attempting to hoard all to themselves or something... I just do not understand how someone can be so woowoo and yet so hostile at the same time.

Woowoo, what is that, Sangu?
You are reading me wrong.
Finite amount of female energy.. That is a weird phrase.
My hostility comes from feelings after 63 yrs on this planet, in this
body( I'm open to reincarnation), and seeing men first , define the fucking shit out of women. Telling us who we are, how to be, and shut our fucking mouths.
Now. Now we have some
trans* women, seeming to me from reading stuff here- cause it's not happening in my world- telling women
How to be. Telling them to not call their Vagina a Vagina- cause hey, they don't have one of those. Telling women, not to talk about periods in front of them, because hey, they don't experience periods.
Not to congregate without including them. We can't even come together, enjoy each other as women, listen to a bit of music- wtf is going on?
Like I said above, we can stand next to trans* women, supporting and loving each other, or not. It depends on them. I'm just in myself, in the body I got from birth. All the bits are a Woman's bits as designed and delivered by nature.
Would I like to have been born a man, hell yes. Loved to know what it feels like to have those dangling bits between my legs. Never to bleed from my cunt. Or push babies outta there, or breastfeed them- or mother them forever. So it seems.
Got the short straw, didn't I?
Slowly, over time, I have come to love being a woman.
If trans* women can back off, stop defining womanhood for me for others, and show some respect for the differences between us, and you know, there are differences, I have no issue with being their sister.

@82 You can definitely be woowoo and hostile at the same time. In fact, I find down-to-earth cynics far easier to reason with usually.

@84 - Apparently! Exhibit A directly above you... :)

So Sangu, I'm not sure what gender you are so I don't know your life experience, you think Ms Jenner knows much about being a woman. Three minutes into her new gender and she's got the run down on the experience?

Ms Jenner is a magnified version of the shit I'm on about. Five minutes ago she was a man, now suddenly she knows all about womanhood.
Yes she may have felt she was a woman trapped in a man's body, she was still in that man's body. Sixty odd yrs of being a member of the Boss sex, and look at this- bringing all that Boss sex energy over into her new gender.
We even have Dan weeks ago, encouraging Cis lesbians- women who don't want anything to do with humans who have or may have had a penis,
To date trans* women, so the latter wouldn't feel excluded. Yet, for those women, they are excluded and they just have to deal with that.
But oh no, the women, the Cis women, have to change themselves.. Once again or still, have to convolute their inner true selves, to accomodate others.

You just keep digging your way deeper and deeper into your empty black hole, dearie. I am a woman. Was born with all the *proper* parts that you deem so necessary to womanhood. And yet, oddly enough, I don't portray myself as the expert just because I happen to have those bits. Frankly, I find all of the trans* this and cis* that rather ridiculous. To me, they and we are *women*. That's it. That's all.

Obviously, their experience is not my experience and vice versa, but I'm not trying to one-up anybody, either. I bleed every month - or at least I did until I got the IUD - but that's just a function of my biology. It doesn't *mean* anything. You seem to think it does. You seem to think that just because they haven't gone through the pain and agony that's so endemic to *your* experience that they aren't authentic. That's just bullshit.

Everybody on this planet lives and learns through their own experiences, and who the fuck am I to tell them that whatever conclusion they reach at the end of the day is wrong? And if my opinion is based on nothing more than what happens to be between their legs - well, then I'm just nobody. And so are you.

What's just between their legs? The whole body is defined by our gender, no. It's all linked up, yeah. My breasts knew to make milk soon after I gave birth.
Every month, except thru babies of course, my body bled out.
It sure felt that way some months.

You might experience yourself as nobody, I sure don't feel that way about myself.
I won't be brainwashed out of knowing what I know. And I know women, Cis women, are not, trans* women.
So, either this bun fight can go on , or not.
I support trans* women, no question in my mind or my heart. I don't agree with a lot of the story around trans* issues- as I have said, and Ive been knocked down every time, because of what? Ideas. Ideas, feelings and experiences that run counter to the party line. The trans* women party line.
And now, registering that a cis women's only music meet has stopped. That really pisses me off. That lack of care for what Cis women want.

Jesus christ, TERFs are assholes.

*siiiighhhhh* NO. Once again, you're wilfully conflating sex and gender. They are NOT the same. Nobody's trying to brainwash you, jfc. It's called education, and being open to others' knowledge and experience. But then, you are the expert on what makes a woman, aren't you? With your blood and milk and litters of children and all. Ew.

How can you say that you support transwomen in one breath and then denigrate them in the next by declaring that you refuse to bow to their whims? Once again lumping them all together like they have club meetings down in someone's basement plotting on how to 'ruin ciswomen's lives' or somesuch bullshit? Who are you to speak for what all ciswomen want? Again - I'm cis. If there's a festival out there dedicated to women, then I feel that it should be for women. Period. All of them.

I honestly can't speak to the MichFest thing because that's never been my scene. Just not into the folksy kind of music that they seemed to promote. I don't know the history or the rumours or the motivations surrounding the gala. But if they claimed that it was for women, but then turned around and said "Except those gals over there", then yeah, they should have been called on their duplicity. Again, I don't know that's what happened, but it sounds like that's what happened, and good thing too.

So men who dress like women are in conflict with women who were raised as men over who gets to control how being a woman is presented at this event?

@87:

Five minutes ago she was a man, now suddenly she knows all about womanhood.

This right here demonstrates that you know fuck-all about trans people and should politely recuse yourself from this thread.

Seilo, how easy it is to just discount my viewpoint. Where have I erred? I saw pictures of Jenner as a man a few months ago. Then , like everyone else, saw her present herself on VF cover.
And I could say the very same to trans* women. If you don't understand why Cis women would want to sometimes congregate and not include trans* women, you know fuck all about Cis women.

I don't know the history or the rumours or the motivations surrounding the gala. But if ... I don't know that's what happened, but it ...

LavaGirl, this is who you've been arguing with. They don't know the history of the festival, and they don't care to look it up. They don't know why the festival came to be, the reason behind the intent, and they do not care to find out. But they'll argue for days about it on the internet.

They think that it's something that it's not, and they can't be convinced otherwise because they're happy to be righteously ignorant (that "feels" better). This is what it's come to. Why bother?

Lava @87, Jenner has been a woman since she was born. She spent most of her life, up until recently, trying to conform to what society said she had to be. While you see that as getting to enjoy male privilege, that is not what the MTF experience is about.

You have objected to others deciding what women should be (and rightly so), and I guarantee that every trans person in the world knows well what it is like to have others decide what they are supposed to be.

By definition there is some difference in physiology between cis and trans women, but would you exclude a cis woman who had to have her uterus and ovaries removed prior to puberty from a women only space? What about women who are infertile for other reasons? They can't commiserate with you about pregnancy, but surely they are still women.

@95 - Oh, and you think LG knows shit about it? All she saw was somebody moaning that the ciswomen weren't allowed to have their little lovefest without those nasty transwomen objecting and calling them out on their shit, and suddenly she was all up in arms about toeing the trans* party line and other crap.

Like I said, it's not my scene and I honestly have no interest in how it all went down. At least I own up to my ignorance.

@94:

Seilo, how easy it is to just discount my viewpoint.

That's because your viewpoint is wrong, and because you refuse to listen when better-informed people try to inform you of that fact. You are not interested in learning, and you should politely recuse yourself from this thread.

I've been watching from the sidelines during this LavaGirl bash and I've hesitated to step in until now because frankly I don't want to be labeled a TERF, whatever the f*#% that is. Actually I just looked it up, and if the "official" definition I found is correct, its use as a cudgel in this discussion is distasteful at best. I have other problems with the term, but that's a discussion for another time.

The reason I'm speaking up is because sanguisuga @97 derisively and dismissively referred to the MichFest controversy as "somebody moaning that the ciswomen weren't allowed to have their little lovefest". That statement displays such a shocking lack of understanding of what MichFest is all about that it makes me, as a cis lesbian, furious.

I never made it to MichFest - the years I really wanted to go (my 20's) I was too poor - but I have close friends who went religiously for many years. When the festival started in 1976, it was a place for lesbians to commune in a safe space and listen to music. Being both women AND queers, lesbians were a pretty marginalized group. Of course that has changed somewhat with the widespread sexualization and media glorification of "certain types" of lesbians, but while we are more accepted now (in some part due to said objectification) there is still a lot of prejudice. To some we are nothing more than man haters and bull dykes and FemiNazis.

My understanding is that MichFest was started by one woman who owned the land that the festival was held on. I don't know why she held fast about not encouraging trans woman to attend. What I do know is that a beloved exclusively lesbian tradition (maybe I should say "the" because no others are coming to mind) was destroyed because trans women stirred up a shit storm. So where are all of the trans women gonna go next year during that one week in August?

Congratulations on your victory. You just made the world a better place for no one.

@99: Don't blame trans women for Michfest shutting down. It wasn't up to us. From an Advocate op-ed:

It’s clear that women (or womyn) who attend the fest and those who perform at Michfest have wanted trans women to be a part of their celebration. Vogel — and perhaps her small band of die-hard supporters — did not. And so she fought until it was unreasonable to fight anymore and she shut it down.

This is called cutting off your nose to spite your face. Sure, perhaps it’s a purely economic decision: use the trans controversy to cover a failing economic venture. In recent years the festival, once attended by nearly 10,000 women each year, has been declining in attendance and popularity. Last year, AutoStraddle reported that attendance was closer to 3,000. It’s a trend.

[...]

And instead of bending, instead of inviting in trans women and letting those organizations like Equality Michigan and NCLR triumphantly support this new, growing festival — perhaps broadening the economic power base, attracting new and returning performers, and welcoming new revenue from these new attendees — instead of all that, Vogel decided to shut it down. Michfest chose to shut down rather than change.

Also, it wasn't "exclusively lesbian", though it worked out to be primarily so. It was for all women--except trans women, because we aren't real women, y'know.

I never went either (I'm nowhere near Michigan) and it sucks that an event that meant so much to so many is shutting down. But if I did have the opportunity to go, I'd have to go closeted, and how can that possibly be considered a welcoming environment?