I think you gotta work on your math, Dan. 64% is not a passing grade.

I hesitate to slap a 'Snooper' label on BRIDE. If, as she claims, she was tasked with purging personal info from that iPhone then perusing those texts wasn't just forgivable, it was actually responsible.

I have to wonder if her partner didn't reallly want to be caught, though.

Also, I think if you're going to be in a committed relationship with someone, it's pretty useful to be able to discuss stuff like this honestly without it becoming a radioactive relationship-threatening crisis. You're going to be attracted to other people, you're going to flirt with other people, you're going to get crushes on other people - and the same is true of your partner. Even if you're devotedly monogamous, being able to share this stuff (and laugh at it, even) will strengthen the connection. Flipping out about it, on the other hand, guarantees that your partner will be extra careful never to share this part of themselves with you, never to leave any evidence or admit any curiosity about the chlorophyll content of nearby grass, and there's a good chance it will kill your sexual connection in the long run. Happens all the time.

I was thinking, "you should (try to) stay with him. I'm not sure he should stay with you." as Dan closed with. Dan was kind enough to lay out all the background on that for the slow newlywed wife.

To the LW: "we were in a rough spot in our relationship and we weren't having much sex" is "playing the blame game" only if you were, actually, fucking the shit out of each other at that time. Were you? If you were in a dry spell, so early in your relationship, he was right to feel unsure about a future with you. He still should be unsure about a future with you.

I think Dan is being harsh here. She didn't snoop. He asked her to go through his phone and delete sensitive info (pay stubs). And can she really be blamed for having a visceral reaction to finding nude photos of a co-worker?
I do agree that she should move on and forgive and forget now though.

She's not a snoop. He ASKED her to go through the phone and delete stuff. That, to me, is a fairly good indicator that he had probably long since forgotten about the pics; he wouldn't have asked her to go through the phone if he remembered it was there. If he forgot the pics were on the phone, he probably hadn't looked at them in a long time. To him, this is old history.

LW, you have to let this go. If this is the most grievous sin he commits during your marriage, he is a saint. Yeah, I get this was a hurtful surprise. But given that it happened years ago during a rough patch before you got engaged, and given that it appears that it isn't a current or ongoing thing, then this is a very minor offense. Smack him lightly on the hand and get over it.

Insane jealousy's probably broken up as many (or more!) relationships as actual cheating. I can sort of understand her anger over him not telling her about it, but OTOH, look how she reacted!

Do men really find this kind of behavior attractive?

*crickets*

Remind me: why is this person married? She's clearly still in middle school.

Even given all the external circumstances that lead to non-event on this, LW is carrying on like a crazed drama queen on her last can of AquaNet. Her new husband needs to think really seriously if he wants to be tied to this woman for the foreseeable future or whether life might not just conceivably be a whole hell of a lot more pleasant without the Sturm und Drang she's bringing into it.

The thing that stands out to me is the lying. Even after he was busted.

I'm surprised at the number of people claiming they wouldn't be fazed by sexts from a co-worker on an SO's phone.
Sure multiple dramatic confrontations about it is an overreaction but the fact that he didn't just come out with the whole truth the first time she asked didn't exactly help bring the incident to a quick close.

She is a snooper.... no doubt. She wasn't tasked with removing sensitive data from the phone... she was tasked with getting any old pictures off of it. "looking for pay stubs" my ass.... she was snooping. You don't give an old iphone away or sell it without resetting it first anyway...which is one of the simpler things to do. This letter differs greatly from the one from Friday (pregnant woman with currently flirting husband) in that this "transgression" happened years ago and isn't being flaunted in this woman's face. I don't blame her for having a bit of a melt down...but the Chicken Little syndrome is so immature. Maybe I'm in a less compassionate mood today than Friday...but i thoroughly enjoyed Dan's response.

This little tiny mole hill is well on its way to surpassing Everest.

[what did he get from her that he couldn't have gotten from me?]

Well, that one's easy - the baby you haven't been told about yet. I shall avoid the morass of a reference to one of Mr Savage's more notorious columns.

{non-HA: Really well done by Mr Savage. The only thing I'm tempted to add is a guess that LW had already decided to dump husband for crying and framed the letter looking for permission.}

He wasn't honest because he's been in a relationship with you for years and knew you were going to lose your shit if given the truth, so he tried a more pleasant version of the truth first.

Gosh, Dan, you're getting a little mean.

See, this is how I expect Dan to deal with jealousy and snooping. Unlike the other day.

What Chase @ 3 said... Heavens, isn't every married person's phone full of text-flirting? We've been married for 7 years and have collectively accumulated nude selifes of at least 5 different girls. Iirc I'm way behind here, 4-1 - the settled guy thing really is a sext magnet because every girl who ISN'T in an LTR thinks that committed/married guys are the best bet for their non-committal sexting. It's been mostly his ex-coworkers, for some reason - back when we lived in Atlanta it seemed like every girl who quits working with him sends him naked photos within a week or two. I don't even get how couples stay married without sharing their naked selfie stashes. Chill out, LW. Hope you find a cute guy to send you his selfies.

Ouch Dan! Harsh!

So she snooped and got upset by what she found (as most people would) and confronted him. She's not a Nazi for it though. Neither of them are saints, but neither are they devils.

They both sound like pretty normal people. He fucked up a little, she fucked up a little. Life goes on. Forgive each other and move on. Nothing to see here.

I think that he isn't someone who will be devotedly monogamous to her and who will find it easy to be honest with her over decades. She doesn't talk much about their sex life, except to mention that rough patch, and to say that they talk a lot about sex and try to stay creative and spice things up. Five years in, a mere month into marriage, is it a good sign that they're trying to "spice things up" like an old married couple? Maybe, but maybe neither of them really feels that the sex they have together is hot and exciting.

It would be a hassle to get divorced, but it would be a hell of a lot harder to get divorced after they have kids. If they don't want kids, then there's little harm in seeing how this plays out. But I'd advise her to consider leaving if she can't wrap her head around the idea that her husband (like many) doesn't find monogamy easy.

@16 I think there is a huge difference between this LW and Friday's. This woman's husband did something very minor - swapping a couple of nude pics before he fully committed to the her - and she's blowing up to a degree that's really out of proportion. Furthermore, she thinks that her reaction is completely reasonable. And, yes, she did snoop. She even admits that she snooped, using those words. If you want to clear an old phone, save the pics that you want and either reset the phone yourself or take it to your service provider to have it wiped for free. There's no need to go through e-mails, especially considering that any personal e-mails should already be saved in your account.

Friday's LW on the other hand, admitted to a problem with jealousy but offered up no real evidence of that except her own admission and the fact that she's allowed to read her husband's texts. For all we know, he's allowed to read her texts, too. And, even if we think her jealousy is a problem, she's not snooping if she's allowed to go through his phone with his knowledge and blessing. Plus, when she found incriminating texts that clearly pointed to a real problem - obviously grooming a co-worker for sex - she didn't confront him or intend to confront him. There was no interrogation driving him to tears. In fact, she asked Dan to calm her down by telling her that she was a "crazy pregnant lady." For all we know, her "problem with jealousy" consisted of her husband telling her she was jealous after she'd spotted some red flags in the past.

I think Dan's advice to both letters was completely reasonable.

Wow, Dan. You're really being kind of a jerk here. Yeah, yeah, I get it, you're tired of the same letters (man crosses the line, woman flips out) especially since your own monogamish is long since old hat. But really, not everyone is monogamish, and the first time you realize your partner is (or was) sowing some oats is a big fat shock. It's perfectly fucking normal to have big big insecurities about it, to be very hurt, and to question his honesty. Let's not crucify the woman for not being as evolved as you. And no, naked photos are not common casual flirting when in a monogamous relationship. Maybe in yours.

Also, hey, since when is it not our partners job to provide reassurance if we're given reason to doubt them? Is it so hard to be like, "babe, I'm sorry. I was getting my jollies over it, realized it was wrong (it was) and decided not to pursue it. I didn't tell you because I didn't actually go there, and I realized you were the one. Sorry for my little indiscretion. I love you." And she takes some time, thinks it over, realizes that it isn't worth ending things over.

Also, maybe this is a woman thing, but I'd be more pissed that this woman knew something about my relationship that I didn't. I would consider a person who did that, knowing the guy is in a relationship, presumably living together to be an asshole. And I would say that acting like that means a friendship is pretty much out of the question. Women he dated before me, while we were broken up, female friends now, of course. Women who have already demonstrated that they give no fucks about me? I'm not into it.

Well Dan, you're obviously Not a woman.
LW, let it go.. Ok?

doesn't this woman know that relationships are an endless cycle of sins committed, apologies offered and forgiveness granted? as dan himself once said?

Just wait until she finds out he's been masturbating to porn all this time.

Sending naked photos, nbd. I'd better go tell my boyfriend to get with it, because clearing I have lost my touch when it comes to "harmless" "flirting". I could have been sexting all this time!

Yes secretagent, obviously flirting has been redefined.
That this woman is still a friend of his, is a concern. That's one part of this story I feel LW should insist change. The naked picture girl, goes.

OK, I know I'm old and old-fashioned (or at least middle aged), but I don't possess a single naked selfie of myself on my cell phone, let alone a selfie of anyone else. And, although I've got a sweetie of a year and a half standing, we have never exchanged even suggestive selfies with each other. Suggestive texts, ohmygosh, yes. Pics, no.

Am I a dinosaur, people??

It is hard to know the sexes of the posters here. Still, at a rough guess.. The males( like Dan), seem fine with it. The women, not so much.

It would be fine if the men who find this behaviour ( naked photos sent to men in relationships) acceptable, stayed single, ran their own houses, cooked their own food.. Took the risk of sleeping alone, yet do they? I'm guessing not.

I have a question for you, BRIDE (and not the sllotd readership): When you say "He played the blame game a bit, saying we were in a rough spot in our relationship and we weren't having much sex and that he wasn't sure where we were going at the time" you don't mention where he actually blamed you. Rough spot in relationships, sure, they happen. No sex, okay, yeah. That's an assessment of the relationship, and if there's fault, it belongs to both of you. Did he imply that it was all your fault? Was it his tone? Where in all this is the "blame game" going on? Because, along w/ not being sure where it's headed, it all sounds like he was summing up his situation. Which is what you were interrogating him for, right? So where does the blame enter into this?

Bonus question(s), knowing what you now know, what should his reply have been when you confronted him, to make it better? And if getting down on his knees and begging for your forgiveness, is that what you really want in a man? A guy who chooses to be with you because he's terrified of being alone? Someone who isn't interested in finding out for himself what it is he wants, but will always subjugate himself for your definition of him? There are plenty of males like that at the pound or animal shelters. They're called dogs and you might be more interested in those than a human male.

@21 I really don't think Dan is framing the husband's actions as completely innocent - just that she shouldn't leave him over this. I'd probably have different advice for her if he'd sent out some naked pics last week, if he'd done this several times, or if it went beyond sexting. But this was a one-time, non-physical thing that happened before they were engaged. Once they had that commitment, he stopped. It's not innocent behavior but it is forgivable.

I'm a little more worried about the wife's claims that she was going through the phone looking for "pay stubs." Either she's very confused about how technology works, which is worrisome in itself, or she was out-and-out snooping and is now lying about it to cover up her tracks. It's also a little troubling that she refers to her husband as playing "the blame game." I don't think reminding her that they were going through a rough patch is necessarily blaming her, unless he said it in an accusatory manner. If he simply pointed it out as a way to explain his state of mind at the time of the sexting, it wasn't really blaming.

@26 I'd like to know if they're still working in the same field. If they are, and they see each other through work, it's probably in his best interest to stay on friendly terms. Although I think the wife has every right to request no socializing outside of work. Not meeting her for after-hours cocktails doesn't qualify as "treating her like shit."
@29 I wrote my comment regarding the blame game before I read yours. Obviously, I agree completely.

I'm pretty sure exchanging naked photos with a co-worker while you're in a monogamous relationship with someone else is not considered normal flirting in any universe except Dan's. No, BRIDE should not end the marriage over this. But she shouldn't be treated like some kind of insane jealous bitch for getting upset, either.

Some readers missed the part about snooping. Yes, her husband and she agreed she should transfer photos from the old phones. The sexting pictures were not in the photos. The wife went WAY out of bounds and snooped in his email history--and she admits snooping--unearthing the sexts thusly. You are right on Dan. She crossed a line of trust and is now playing the victim. He needs to run fast, far and not look back. This lady will lord it over him for the rest of his days.

More than a few folks are missing the fact that what she found wasn't on the actual phone. It was in his email. She used the phone's stored login info to get into it, but in terms of snooping it's the same as using his laptop behind his back.

It's not something she found by accident in a part of the phone she was supposed to be looking at. It's something she actively went looking for.

That they issue marriage licenses to people like this...

Ok, I'll admit that the whole thing about looking in his e-mail for pay stubs was kind of weird. Why was she looking for pay stubs? Does she not know how much money he makes? Was she afraid he was hiding money from her and sending it to another wife in another state? Still, while snooping on your partner is a Bad Thing, so is exchanging naked photos with someone who is not your partner. Hopefully they can both learn from this experience and have many happy years together.

Thought experiment. Let's imagine it's 1994, and BRIDE finds an envelope with naked Polaroids of her husband's co-worker in a file cabinet where he keeps his personal correspondence and financial information. Does your response change?

She had to go through 2 years of emails to find the evidence. That's snooping.

BRIDE wonders what the other woman had to offer that she herself didn't. She had her pussy. It's not complicated. Two is better than one for lots of folks. Now you know how he's wired. Stay or go accordingly.

@29 Some Old...
It's implied that the blame is on her presumably because she wasn't agreeing to sex during the rough spot. Men can still be horny even if they're fighting with you.

Ms Secret - You're assuming facts not in evidence. They were co-workers; she could easily have thought him available at the time.

Ms Thinking - I don't even have a cell phone. I've contemplated getting one, but for one thing it seems far too complicated an undertaking; for another, it seems such a shameful thing to admit that I suspect I'd be laughed out of the store. (That may seem extreme, but I've been taunted by telemarketers in the past, and it's probably stayed with me.)

Ms Erica - That is a good point; someone who prevaricates in such a way wouldn't strike me as the best bet for absolute long-term monogamy either. I just don't quite dislike him enough to wish to impose a Covenant Marriage on them both.

Ms Lava - I'm not at all fine with sexting - at best I give it FTWL.

Back to Ms Secret - (although your scenario is entirely plausible) I agree with your point that a partner caught sexting ought to provide reassurance, but there is plenty against LW:

* the exclamation point after "4 months before he proposed" as if that were the final straw required to condemn him to execution instead of, if anything, a rather mitigating factor (reminiscent of Antony Blanche telling Charles Ryder about how Society has shunned Lord Marchmain)

* as pointed out earlier, LW's framing husband's explanation as the blame game (perhaps accurately so but without substantiation)

* the "many interrogations" - granted, the Rumpole stories are told almost exclusively from one side, but who among us would call Hilda (aka She Who Must Be Obeyed) a perpetually congenial and pleasant life partner?

* [He never made it clear to this girl that he made a mistake]... because it's not enough just to take a step or two down and make it apparent that one has decided not to continue a certain level of flirtation, one has to insult the other party?

* [what did he get from her that he couldn't have gotten from me?] If we were to make a rule right now that anyone who asked that question would automatically receive the response DYA, I'd wager (if I were a person who bets) it would be right at least three to nine times as often as it would be wrong. That seems an LMB-worthy question.

* the passive voice of the first two questions - it's not enough for LW to ask if LW personally ought to forgive him, but LW wants it to be made absolutely clear beyond reasonable doubt that he ought not to be forgiven by anyone.

Putting on my Miss Marple hat, I'm going to guess from LW's acronym (adding the caveat that we not find out it was selected by Mr Savage or an associate) is the clue here, and that LW is another in a long line of Zillas whose marriage raises no other reaction than surprise that the partner and the relationship survived the engagement. The offence in then-pre-fiance's flirtation is largely to LW the obvious point that anyone who proposes is duty-bound to spend every free moment of at least six months before The Proposal in Shopping for the Absolutely Perfect Ring (and working overtime to make sure of being able to spend the requisite three years' salary on it).

Wow, Dan, really? He ASKED her to go through his phone for photos. Not your garden-variety snooping.
She found these incriminating photos, and was hurt and upset, a normal human reaction. She confronted him...but what was the other choice? Pretend she hadn't seen anything? Great communication, that.
I do think she should forgive, but she did not deserve this harsh answer.

1) She was definitely snooping.
2) She reacted pretty strongly--some might say she overreacted.
BUT
3) Everyone has the right to feel the way he or she feels
4) Sending naked pics is not the way everyone flirts, especially with someone one works with. It may be a no big deal for Dan or for some, but I don't think it's "typical" flirty behavior.

I wonder if all of the people think it is no big deal would be cool with their girlfriends sending naked photos to their coworkers?

To give a point from the other side, I'll say that, if I wanted to be LW-positive, I'd suggest that what one might see as LW's attempts to be The One (Sex Partner) [We have always been very open with each other and try to stay creative and spice things up. We regularly listen to sex podcasts and read books, articles and talk about what we learned from them.] might well exhaust even another devoted pursuer of Mary Suedom/Gary Studom and send such a spouse or even pre-spouse occasionally in search of non-overanalyzed frolics. Can LW relax for ten minutes? I'd fear not, and advise LW to learn to do so.

I can also guess that it might be particularly trying for Mr Savage, who thinks that people who have only one or two affairs during a long marriage are overall pretty good at monogamy (although I do think he overreaches in giving such people an A grade), when a LW who appears to be a regular follower writes as if Mr S would automatically condemn a partner for a rather lower-grade offence committed some time before the engagement. Perhaps (to give Mr S a bit of credit for having read his Machiavelli) he thinks LW's staying with Husband is sufficient punishment for Husband's transgression.

Whether you think the advice was harsh or not, the last bit is especially true: as far as the trials and tribulations of a successful marriage go, this is nothing. If she can't cope with this, her odds of going the distance are very low.

Yes, she snooped - she was given an inch and took a mile (you can easily wipe the phone with much less effort than digging through it).

This is probably beyond a mild flirtation, and it's somewhat understandable she would be upset at seeing a coworker's naked pics, but yeah, she needs to let it go.

For those who say the lying stands out: yes, but only because it's indicative of how much he's already walking on eggshells.

I'm very grateful that Mrs. Finch is aware of how much some stuff will upset her and therefore doesn't go looking because although I purged a great deal of my life before we moved into a house we bought together about a month before the wedding, I am still shocked at the crap I tucked away so discreetly in my old home that I forgot about it.

@40: Again, the photos weren't on the phone, the password to his email account was. She took the password, used it to break into his email, and then went through two years of his emails until she found this.

The snooping charge is legit; that's some seriously heavy-duty snooping--it looks like finding something to use against him was pretty important to her, since she put quite a bit of time into looking for something like it.

But so what? It doesn't change much, since the LW's already pretty heavily committed to being the kind of person who'd hold this over his head forever. LW, since you don't love him and it seems likely you'll make it impossible for him to love you, why not break up?

There are lots of new relationships you could both form that wouldn't have this baggage. If most of that baggage is positive, though, then just get the fuck over it. His story holds water--the almost-affair was at the right time to have been the trigger event for him deciding to propose--and he didn't play the blame game, he just engaged in minimal self-defense from your dipshit interrogation-freakout technique. He's a mess, and you're more of one; I wouldn't let either one of you date someone I cared about, but if there's more good than bad there, for you, then get over it. He did. Maybe, with time, he can get over your asshole explosion too. But if your freakout's never going to end, why stay?

Ms Cute - I agree; LW has an absolute right to feel however LW felt. Just for the record, though, how "many interrogations" would it require for you to find it an overreaction?

Ms(?) Aurora - I think Mr Savage may be on record (and I certainly am) in placing a strongly negative connotation on the verb to confront. The "other choice" was to mention finding the photos and ask for an explanation without making a confrontation of it. I accept that other people do not attach a Jerry Springeresque flavour of belligerence to the word, but did read the letter as its being clear that LW was making a fight out of it from the first mention.

TL, DR: If you search for something to be angry about, you will always find it. Learn to recognize when you want to be angry, and break up amicably instead.

If you don't want to break up, then stop trying to make yourself angry, and get over the steps you've already taken.

@42 secretagent

I would be cool with it. I don't understand jealousy AT ALL. If she thought it was fun to do that, hell, I'd take the picture for her if it would help. Sex is fun.

@46: On reread, it looks like the snooping charges are less legit (the pictures were on the phone, just not in the part she had permission to look at). But they didn't seem important when they looked more legit, and they don't seem important now either.

venn @39:

Hilda (aka She Who Must Be Obeyed)

I thought Ayesha was She Who Must Be Obeyed.

I think Dan was right on with his assessment. Both parties have committed relatively minor transgressions, the boyfriend for sexting while he was in a committed relationship, LW for her aggressive snooping. I get the boyfriend's POV because I've been there...not sure if relationship is going to work out, tempted by another woman, but ultimately deciding to stay and make it work. Still wrong, but he chose YOU and (sounds like) has been faithful ever since. You gotta learn to pick your battles in a relationship/marriage or you'll be fighting constantly over the multitude of insignificant shit that always happens. RELAX LW. Getting batshit crazy over something that happened 2 years ago is not a good strategy for a LTR. If you had found the photos WHEN IT WAS HAPPENING, then, yes, duke it out. But now, put it in perspective and let it go. Show your guy he made the right decision by choosing you.

@52- "Show your guy he made the right decision by choosing you." YES! very well put.

I'm also bumming out because I'm old enough to have missed out on the whole sexting thing. I do have a few nude photos of old girlfriends, though. Doesn't mean I love my current gal any less, doesn't mean I'm gonna reconnect with them. They were an important part of my life and I like the occasional stroll down memory lane.

@52 "Show your guy he made the right decision by choosing you."
That only works if it was the right decision and if they are compatible in the long run. If they're not compatible, then the better course is to end it as soon as one of them realizes that. Does she sound happy with him?

And can anyone help parse what she means at the end?
>> We have been together a long time now, but our marriage is still young, and I'd hate to see the last six years go down the drain.>>

It sounds to me like she thinks she should stay because of the length of time they've invested already. To me, that doesn't seem like such a great reason to stay together.

Mr Registered - You clearly don't know your Rumpole.

"He cries every time we talk—and I have only seen this man cry once in six years. But I'm worried that I won't be able to get over this. That it will eat me up inside."

It sounds like she's already realizing that she's not going to resist the temptation to use this as a weapon against him, forever. Time to go.

If you can't make yourself put down a weapon, that's your body telling you that you're at war. People at peace never feel like "this is too good a weapon to ever stop using." Don't stay with someone you're at war with.

@57 Eud - i also wondered how many times they had to talk about this. Sounds like she has put him through the wringer and keeps going back to the well to make him retell it all again and again.

@55 EricaP, there's nothing in the letter to indicate that their relationship is rocky (other than this incident), and I think six years together should definitely be a factor to consider. It's not like they just met, they (probably) are compatible...enough to last six years at least. Not enough information to judge otherwise, but she doesn't say, "we fight constantly..."

@55:

It sounds to me like she thinks she should stay because of the length of time they've invested already. To me, that doesn't seem like such a great reason to stay together.

I'm kind of on the same wavelength with the timing thing. I wonder if both of them aren't suffering a bit from this:

1) This pretty serious "flirtation" took place well after they'd likely had the exclusive conversation. He knew it was something to keep secret well into a committed relationship.

2) The crying, etc, - despite the ambivalence - suggests he's more afraid of being alone than anything.

I don't think any of this bodes well for either of them. He needs to do some work too: starting with being honest with himself about his fears and reservations, and having enough self-respect to honor those by being honest with her about them.

But he didn't write asking what he should do - she wrote in, and what she should do is recognize that he did choose her. I wonder if her snooping and insecurity are in part driven by a long-term gut feeling or knowledge of his ambivalence.

@55 EricaP

People often fall into the trap of "throwing good money after bad." The emotional attachment to all that's been invested leads you to continue digging the hole deeper. It's too bad that she doesn't place much actual value on their shared history. She sees it not as something wonderful while it lasted, something no one can take away, but rather as a ruined six years. Sorry to keep harping on the evils of strict monogamy, but this just really strikes me as clear evidence that the exclusivity was all that mattered in the end.

One drop of sewage in a barrel of wine yields a barrel of sewage.

Hey, gang... I wrote to the LW—I write to them all when their letters go up—and said, "You know I can be harsh, right?" She wrote back to say she knew that... and she thanked me for the advice, and my bluntness. People who write me... read me.

Dude's a CPOS. And wife is naïve as all hell. "Why did he do it?" 'Cause he could. "Why did he lie about it?" Cause he didn't want to get caught. There's no deep psychological turmoil inspiring his behavior. He was horny. Hot coworker sexted with him (and/or actually fucked with him). Dan's way off on this one.

@61: Just FWIW, people who need monogamy didn't choose to need monogamy; any more than anyone else chose their own needs.

The purpose jealousy serves is to wave a red flag when you aren't feeling how relationships are supposed to make you feel. Jealousy isn't itself the problem, it's just an indicator. Problems arise when people take it as indicating that it's time to punish their partner, rather than that it's time to consider a change in circumstance.

@10 has it right. LW seems immature and insecure, but 1) she was doing something they'd agreed on, 2) I just don't buy that sexting is acceptable flirting-within-a-relationship and nothing to get upset about, and 3) husband's lying about it, then saying he didn't cut ties with the woman because he was worried about what she'd think of him?!?!? He sounds even more immature and insecure than the LW...and totally manipulative to boot.

Six years is a long time to toss down the drain, so I do think these two should try to move beyond it, but I would have a really hard time trusting this guy after such an episode.

@63 Eud, that's one way of looking at it. I think that jealousy, however, is many times something you "choose". My girlfriend has guy friends. I could be jealous, but I'm not. I think it's great that she has other people than me in her life, and am confident enough in myself and our relationship to be happy about it. Jealousy CAN be an indicator, as you say, but too often it's unfounded and that's when it's a problem, not an indicator.

@65 genevieve

I what way would it be "down the drain?"

Sorry, @64.

i dont think there is any question that the husband did something wrong (based on our assumptions about their monogamy and her reaction...). But i DO think her reaction to all of it is too over the top based on the (limited) facts we have been given. At what point does someone need to stop looking for a NEW answer to the same question? She seems to want play-by-play super specific details about the sexting. Else why would she need to interrogate him more than once? And "interrogate"? That is NEVER a word I personally use as a synonym for "discuss" or "converse".

Plus... she asked Dan some specific questions and Dan answered them. How would any of you who think Dan got this one wrong have answered those specific questions?
1. Do you think he should be forgiven?
--no! he is beyond redemption. You poor poor victimized soul
2. How can we recover from this if he is?
--see number 1
3. What are your thoughts about his sexting relationship?
--a horrible and crystal clear violation of your relationship
4. Do you think this was cheating?
--YES!

ok... so was this letter sent to Dear Abbie? NO. Besides, right or wrong... righteous or contrite... she can only control her own actions about this. If she knows he can't live up to what she needs from him... she should move on... instead of fishing for more ammo to use against him.

@66: I don't agree about it being unfounded, because it always comes from somewhere. But it's a mistake to think that it's always an indicator that someone else is doing something wrong. It's like hearing a noise late at night: Sometimes it means someone's breaking into your house, but sometimes it means you left the washer on.

And jealousy is never a choice--it's something you feel, or you don't. Choosing not to indulge that feeling isn't the same as not having it, and being--or having reason to be--confident enough that it doesn't bother you doesn't mean you're choosing not to be jealous, it means that you're not currently in a situation that inspires jealousy.

I don't get the sense that we're disagreeing, just when I say jealousy isn't something you "choose," I means it's not subject to volition. Your reactions to it are, but it's presence or absence isn't.

Having a poor typing day, apparently.

venn @56 -- correct. The only place I ever encountered Rumpole is in your comments. I know Rider Haggard better.

@72 - I used to feel somewhat self-conscious about spending many a Saturday night in my crazy post-divorce bachelordom watching old BBC sitcom reruns on PBS, and then I encountered Mr. Venn, and realized I wasn't setting the bar at least.

@9: "LW is carrying on like a crazed drama queen"

Because he lied to her repeatedly and gave possibly the dumbest excuses for all the behavior? She can forgive the guy for the dalliances but the coverups are tougher.

@32 & 41 and others saying sexting isn't flirting: Thank you! I was beginning to wonder.

I would never snoop on my husband but I confess that if he handed me his phone and told me to go through it I'm not sure I could resist the temptation to really go through it. And if I came across naked pictures of an acquaintance from a time when we were together...I would not feel good.

And don't worry Dan, we love your harsh advice! Some of us just have too much time on our hands to spend second guessing you. :P

BRIDE: My advice is to go and get some decent advice.

@70 I think we're on the same page.

@75: FWIW, I agree that sexting isn't flirting, but it isn't cheating either. If fucking someone else is 1.0 Cheats, then flirting is like 0.1 Cheats, and sexting is between 0.4 Cheats and 0.8, depending who you ask.

I think some of us think it's 0.4 and round down to 0.0, and some of us think it's 8 and round up to 1. And some of us think it's about 0.6 on the zero-to-cheating scale, and round to "Get over it if you can, and leave if you can't."

@78: Yeah I would be hesitant to call it cheating either but to me flirting is like smiling at someone a certain way, bantering with them, touching their arm...maybe this explains why i never got many dates. Haha

BRIDE (cont):
1. Women don't send naked pictures of themselves to men out of the blue. This was an exchange. If you lean on your husband hard enough (assuming you can stand his tears, which trust me, are manipulative after the first time), he'll eventually admit to having sent pictures of himself to her.

2. This little show and tell was a prelude to fucking, although it's possible one of them bowed out before it got that far. The odds it was your husband is 50/50 at best.

There should be more words for things like explicit dirty talk and sending nude pictures. I would hesitate to call those outright cheating if that's as far as it went but I don't think flirting is accurate at that point.

@78 "Get over it if you can, and leave if you can't."

Yes.

also an aside about sexting in general...

many people assume that nude pics are taken just for them.... but that really isn't the case. The pics your husband received may well have been taken months or years earlier by this woman for someone else entirely. I realize that doesn't excuse any of this...but perhaps it takes a little of the sting out of it.... in that this woman didn't go run into the bathroom and take naughty pics just for your man. In my eyes (since i have been on the receiving end of old nude pics before)... it makes the exchange a lot less intimate. Just a semi-meaningless thought i figured i would throw out there.

a question for the LW if you happen to check in - was your relationship highly stable and without any serious flaws before this discovery? if yes, then perhaps you should see a therapist to gain some perspective on this incident. If not, then perhaps you should seriously consider simply moving on. That your husband's reaction to being caught was to lie and then have a full on meltdown... and your own reaction was to interrogate and go on the war path... it seems you two are pretty far apart on how you deal with adversity. Sometimes opposite approaches are good... other times they only make things worse.

@79: Yeah. In the absence of an ethically-descriptive term for the moral space between "flirting with someone else" and "fucking someone else," I tend to imagine numbers. I doubt there'd ever be anything for which we all agreed on the actual number, but at least it'd let us articulate what we were disagreeing about ("I think that's a 0.8" vs "I disagree, I think it's a 0.4, and that DTMFAs should only happen at 0.6.")

@80: I wonder whether there were more of these, only for which he did remember to delete all of the pictures. I'd bet against it, but... people who only admit once they've been caught don't exactly inspire a lot of trust.

It's also interesting how many people assume that he lied because he knew she would flip out rather than that she flipped out because he kept lying.

I am surprised by the number of folks that think that sending nude photos is a normal and typical sort of flirting to do with a co-worker, and not a good way to put your job in jeopardy. He shouldn't have lied, she shouldn't have snooped so deeply or reacted so strongly, but maybe husband needs to read a few HR horror stories and learn to get his excitement outside the office.

Eud - "... people who only admit once they've been caught don't exactly inspire a lot of trust." I agree with this in theory... but... there is also that blurred line whereby one should ask themselves WHY they are coming clean about something. I mean to say: if the husband had fessed up to this 6 months prior...because it was eating at him and he felt super guilty... would he be doing his wife a favor? or only doing himself a favor? I'd also add that if one knows one's partner is not remotely calm about indiscretions... it starts to become easier to understand why he stuffed the whole thing down the memory hole. Dan doesn't talk about this concept a whole lot (the need for unburdening)...but Prudie seems to love publishing letters that lead to those questions.

I guess i don't see this particular husband as having ANY incentive to fess up before being caught... as he was able to compartmentalize it, realize he loved his GF, propose, etc.... and telling her when it happened would have likely torpedoed the entire thing. (maybe that would've been for the best).

Last- he was an enormous dumbass for having her get data off his phone for him. I would never do that. Tech is Dangerous! haha. And i am a techie by trade.... but i honestly have no idea the oldass shit a partner could stumble on with some of my old devices. I would sooner throw it in a lake than have my partner prep it for sale. And this coming from someone who ultimately has nothing to hide. No crossover skeletons, etc.

I don't see the concept of honesty in black and white terms. And i don't buy that anyone on SL TRULY believes that one should be 100% honest with one's partner at all times. Does this dress make me look fat?

@86 That's an interesting observation. I feel like there's some basic psychology involved. Most (many) people have decent instincts on when to lie (they don't feel comfortable telling the truth or the fear the consequences of telling the truth or fear being disappointed or fear being judged, etc.) If the listener is open to the truth and/or it's a trusting/safe environment, it's a lot easier for someone to tell the truth. Or maybe, like some of these SL situations, it's chicken/egg - I'm not sure.

My husband recently discovered behavior of mine that disappointed him. He asked me to stop and I didn't. I lied and/or omitted, in part to spare him agony/disappointment, but also because there wasn't a way for us to have a rational/meaningful/actionable discussion to entertain any other idea besides quitting said behavior cold turkey.

I'm a mom and I see similar behavior in my child. This seriously just happened: Child spilled something on the couch and she immediately told me what she did. She didn't fear my reaction and wanted me to help her problem solve (let's clean it up together, let's talk about how it was an accident and how you can be a little more careful in the future). As a kid, my mom would have been super pissed if I spilled on the couch. I wouldn't have lied outright, but I would try to cover my tracks. I'd clean it up myself and hope to Hell that she didn't notice.

I'm not trying to be patronizing. I just think openness to the truth is necessary/ideal for a person to tell the truth. Maybe a person wouldn't respond with fight or flight or lying if there weren't a perceived harm/threat?

I don't think "grow up and get over it and suck it up" is the best response. She might be stupid and think that torture is an effective interrogation technique, or he could be fragile and crying at the drop of a hat. Regardless the husband seems to find monogamy difficult at times, I hear this is a common problem, and she'll have to decide if she's ok with that. Divorcing or separating wouldn't make her an asshole, I don't think, but perhaps it would mean that she is not well suited for long relationships.

"she's posing naked in all of them"
This does not sound like a selfie to me. This sounds like someone else took the picture. Since he emailed them to himself, I'd be suspicious that he took them himself. If I were her, I'd be concerned that this is the tip of the iceberg.

1) He should be forgiven if you are convinced that he is telling the truth now, and if he will find a way to politely change his friendship into a business relationship, and if you can see yourself happy with him in the long term. Unless you're willing to befriend her or tell her that you know.. I'm sure that regularly hearing about someone who thinks that she's deceiving you won't feel good.

2) You can either decide to accept his words, or talk to her to verify. I'd read up on interrogation beforehand, though. Friendliness works better.

3) Sexting doesn't always mean that people want to have sex. Sexting friends or coworkers is more likely to mean that sex could happen. You should work with your husband to develop comfortable boundaries for y'all.

4) If you didn't discuss what exclusivity meant then I would not think of sexting as a physical or emotional affair... except he hid it. And didn't even hide it well, he kept evidence on his phone and kept up a friendship with her. On the bright side, if he is a cheater, it shouldn't take too long to figure it out.

COBT, you know that ass looks good in anything! ;) Another compliment, you are really emotionally in touch for someone in tech. My husband is a techie and I used to work with techies. You're a diamond in the rough. An exceptional donkey among asses as I think you alluded to recently. The foal/bun in the oven is lucky to have you.

I would say, this rounds up to snooping, but will agree, it was a crime of opportunity, less so of motive.

But fully agree, cutting off all ties with someone is not a reasonable request when nothing happened. It's not any different than a request to cut off all ties with an ex, which is generally unreasonable.

@88: Not that you were asking me but I think the right approach would have been to stuff it down the memory hole (perhaps more skilfully :P) but once it popped back out to immediately tell the totally reasonable-sounding truth. I'm def not for all brutal honesty all the time.

@89: What you say about honesty being more likely in a safe atmosphere seems true to me. Maybe the LW should think about the general relationship atmosphere. I also think that a lot of people just automatically lie to try to stay out of trouble though. Hard to say which this is.

@88: "I agree with this in theory... but..."

I agree with where you're going with this, but what I was thinking was more like... imagine that when caught for one transgression, he'd confessed to two others, but said those three total instances were it. In that alternate universe, I'd rate him as more trustworthy than the guy who got caught for one, and claimed that there weren't any others.

"I guess i don't see this particular husband as having ANY incentive to fess up before being caught... "

This too. This gets at the answer to 86's unspoken question:
@86: What the rest of us are reacting to, I think, is this--I mean, check out these facts we have.
1. She's the type who has massive, torturous freakouts.
2. They've known each other for at least six years, so it's extremely likely that he knows that.

That's why he kept lying; he knew he had to, since I think it's extremely unlikely that he didn't know her well enough to know that she wasn't going to respond to the news sensibly or with maturity.

TL, DR: Of the two possibilities you suggest, the first one seems obviously true, and the second one may or may not be true (we have no evidence either way). Given that, I think it's reasonable that people are assuming the first one. Especially since they're not contradictory, are they?

Basically, everyone, in every relationship, has to make a choice: Am I going to be the judgmental person who punishes wrongdoings with maximum harshness, or am I going to have a partner who is honest with me? The problem she's having right now is that it feels good to have an honest partner, but it also feels good to punish, and she doesn't like the idea of giving up on either of those--after all, we're (falsely) taught that punishment can create honesty.

Can't have it both ways; 89 says it all. If you make it extremely costly to be honest with you, like the LW has, then a lot of people are going to (sensibly) choose not to pay that price.

thanks vennfan. I'm also a wooden boat builder.... so you could say my work and personal life are rather opposites and keep me (somewhat) in balance.

I think your analogy (with your child) is a very apt one (about the impact of approachability on whether or not people tell you the truth.)

Not to throw this woman under the bus any more...but her general thought process about this and the way she conveys her absolutely crushed soul in her letter... makes me wonder how she reacts when her husband forgets to take out the trash. Probably a disproportionately unfavorable experience for him. Hard to take extreme reactions in a vacuum. They are generally typical of the person.

@91:Stop flirting with CoTB!!!
I kid, I kid.

@88: "I don't see the concept of honesty in black and white terms. And i don't buy that anyone on SL TRULY believes that one should be 100% honest with one's partner at all times. Does this dress make me look fat?"

For what it's worth, I am for brutal honesty at all times--it's not for everyone, but not everyone is against it. It requires a high tolerance for finding out that reality doesn't line up with your own preferences, though, which no one likes (can't blame 'em) and a lot of time spent learning to hesitate before punishing (which isn't easy).

And also fwiw, once you develop a reputation for brutal honesty and for not punishing honesty from other people, people stop freaking out when they get honest answers.

...but the funny part is that people don't stop asking you questions like "does this dress make me look fat." If anything, you get asked those questions more. ;)

@94: I guess I don't see much evidence of undue freaking out BEFORE there was lying. She says "I confronted him immediately." This seems reasonable to me.

Now we can never know what would have happened if he had immediately given the reasonable explanation and sincerely apologized for the shock of finding those pics. If that had been the case and she kept bringing it up and having self-flagellation sessions day after day I would agree she was acting like a nut.

@93 I was asking you (along with everyone else). Feel free to reply to any of my comments... they aren't off limits :) You are right... about fessing up once the original lie was discovered. I discounted that part of it. But it sounds like hubby tried to weasel out of it again... I'd actually be curious to know what his first attempt at an explanation really was? The letter makes it sound more like he deflected the entire line of questioning more so than offering up a totally hokey guilt free line of crap ("i was only holding those pics for my buddy at work...because his wife suspects him of cheating!")

I guess i am a little confused as to what his final explanation actually was... For me, having my partner tell me she was questioning our relationship, we had hit a bump, etc... that would be plenty of an explanation for me. She wouldn't need to get detailed about it. She wouldnt need to tell me what a failure she was... that she had "issues"...etc

But thinking about it more, I guess she's still freaking out (to Dan at least) after getting the reasonable answer so maybe I'm wrong.