Comments

1
Loving but sexless marriage is called friendship. And I don't know any of my friends who demand I go without sex in order to stay friends with them. I'm like you Dan, I get tired of these letters because people are too cowardly to make a decision. There's two choices. If sex isn't important to you, then stay with the friend you have as a companion and there's no problem, live happily ever after. If sex is important to you, then get the fortitude to stop being emotionally codependent and break up. People stay in these unhappy relationships because it's either more convenient to stay than it is to break up or too it's scary to be on their own. Then a lot of times the relationship ends catastrophically or spectacularly anyway. Took my parents 40 years to finally get divorced, but for the first time in my life my mother finally met a man who treats her right AND has fulfilling sex. It's a shame she had to wait past retirement age to do that. Better late than never. Either be happy or DTMFA.
2
No children involved , Dan. Not so hard to call..
LW.. I agree with Dan, though being poor is not much fun... And why should you lose your half of the business? Not all in her name.. Even so, there are Laws re this sort of stuff.
Just end it. End it well.
3
Can I just say that Same Time Next Year is one of my favorite films? Thanks for bringing it up Dan!
4
"I don’t want to betray my marriage, nor do I want to lose it."

Your actions would suggest the opposite!

"I, however, am very attracted to attraction"

Oh vomit. People in love with being in love tend to be shitty partners when they think they can settle down, but they don't want to, but OH THE AGONY OH THE MELODRAMA that they feed off of.

Just divorce your wife, you're not going to stop cheating on her physically or emotionally.
5
So as someone in a relationship where the sex has died due to health issues.. Enjoy the woman on the other coast. I can't leave due to financial reasons; and because I'm in a small town, "sex on the side" isn't really an option. Get over the guilt. But NEVER talk about.

well, just my opinoin
6
Two quotes. First from LOAC's letter:

"I don’t want to betray my marriage, nor do I want to lose it. In addition to a lot of logistic circumstances that I won’t get into here (though there are no kids involved, thankfully), I am financially tied to my wife, and would be broke, and lose my business, without her."

Then from that great fount of do-wop wisdom:

"Sha na na na, sha na na na na,
Sha na na na, sha na na na na,
Sha na na na, sha na na na na,
Sha na na na, sha na na na na,
Yip yip yip yip yip yip yip yip
Mum mum mum mum mum mum
Get a job"

Look, LOAC, you may feel beholden to your wife because she believed in you and because she's sweet and because you've built a life together, but the bottom line is that you can't leave, even if you wanted to leave, because it would mean stepping out and having nothing, and I can feel some more sha na na nas coming on. Get a job.

When people really love each other, when they really feel self-sacrificing, they make it possible for the object of their affection to thrive and to flourish without them. They say, "if anything were to happen to me, I want my wife (child, dog) to be taken care of." They do not hold "you'd be nothing and going back to gutter without me" over their heads.

So here's what you do. You say to that loving wonderful wife that you want to get a job. Leave out the sha na nas. Or you tell her you want the education that will lead to a job. You get money in your own name and a good credit score. You do this because that's what adults do. Then you revisit the leaving question from a position of knowing you realistically could.
7
I'm so fucking sick of all these people who "can't" leave their shitty marriages. What it really means is "I don't want to be with this person, but I loooooove being with their money/house/social standing!" Divorce is NEVER easy, and it NEVER comes without sacrifices. Dan coddles these assholes too much.

The only time you genuinely cannot leave your spouse is if they've made death threats, i.e. I'll kill you if you leave. Those situations are a lot more complicated.

But in this case, the LW, like most cheaters who oh-so-badly wish they "could" leave, is just trying to have her cake and eat it too.
8
Dan could've truncated his response after that first word, "ugh." Why bother writing in to an advice columnist if you're gonna qualify the question with all these preconditions that render it essentially un-answerable. I can't leave her because of xxx, but can't stay because of yyy...

That said, Dan's response seems solid. DMTFA.
9
(upon admiring my posted sage advice I noticed I transposed a couple letters and so plugged "dmtfa" into the googs to see if it was an acronym for anything. The third return on the list was to the scrabble online dictionary. I mean, I don't think it's even an online recognized scrabble word or anything, but was just recently bitching to my friend about how ridiculously broad the online scrabble dictionary is, and saying that it should never be used when playing scrabble. Man, fuck that stupid thing.)
10
You're lesbians. Even if you break up you'll still be besties. Just do it.
12
I had a brief affair with a married woman who didn't want to divorce her husband because: (as she pointed around her kitchen) "how could I give up all this?"

Possibly the most unattractive thing I've ever heard anyone ever say.
13
@4 google 'responsive desire'. Not everybody is blessed with still having spontaneous desire past the honeymoon first or second year ; ideally responsive-type partners should know themselves and warn prospective partners that long-term exclusivity is not realistic, but who knows oneself that well in their twenties ?
14
@4: Yeah, also google "judgmental" while you're at it.

LOAC does want to have her cake and eat it, and that's not going to fly. She's worried about losing her business. Isn't the business hers AND her wife's? There's no law that says 25-year-olds can't own shares in a business. There's also no law that says exes can't be business partners, or that shares of a business can't be sold. LOAC says that THEY own a successful company and that HER career is flourishing. She needs to sit down with the wife and tell her that she's tried, but she can't live a life without sexual passion, and they need to come to an agreement about whether they will continue to be friends and work together, whether wife will buy out her share of the company, or sell that share to a third party. None of these options will leave LOAC destitute.

If Mrs LOAC has conspired to keep all of the business assets in her own name, that was pretty shrewd and unfair on her part. LOAC should see a lawyer.
15
This isn't even a 'my wife won't have sex with me any more, can I cheat?' thing. The LW'S wife is offering sex of a kind, but not with attraction. And the LW should have decided before they got married whether that was acceptable. The only ethical options are to negotiate an open/DADT relationship, or to break up, while getting legal advice to protect one's financial interests.
16
The "I love you but I'm not in love with you" problem again. The solution for straight people isn't too complicated (if you're a man, read Athol Kay's book; if you're a woman, get your partner to read it, but feel free to skip it yourself). I wonder if there's an equivalent for lesbians; if not, that's a niche that needs filling.
17
I'm glad to see that others picked up on what I did as far as LOAC's financial ties to her wife. I don't attach the same condemnation to her dilemma. Everyone has to take money into consideration when making decisions. If money were the only reason for staying with a partner, then sure, that's gold digging and unattractive, but if it's one consideration out of many, that's welcome to the real world and common sense.

14-BiDan-- Good catch. I hadn't paid attention to how they own the business together. She should see a lawyer.

As I reread the letter, I think we've got the old question of doing what you want without the guilt, without having to think of yourself as the asshole. So here's what we've got:

LOAC is the asshole because she's had an affair and wants another. She's the asshole because her wife apparently forgave that affair in therapy. She's the asshole because she wants to abandon her wife who stood by her and believed in her. She's the asshole because she wants to abandon her wife now that her wife is elderly and will pretty obviously be facing health troubles. (Large age difference. LOAC is nearing 40 so Wife is probably nearing 70. Also note, LOAC is in peri-menopause. Wife must be through menopause.) LOAC is the asshole for sounding so adolescent about falling in love.

Wife is the asshole because she doesn't want sex. Wife may also be the asshole because something is tied up somehow that LOAC feels a financial constraint to walking away.

On the other hand, their sex life has always been terrible. LOAC is the asshole for entering into the marriage knowing the sex was terrible. She's the one changing the terms of the contract midway into it.

Also note: LOAC isn't just talking about filling a sexual need. She's talking about filling a sex mixed with attraction mixed with the high feeling of falling in love need. That makes me like her more. I have trouble compartmentalizing those too.

My conclusion: More therapy!

11-Bighorn-- I'm not sure it's societal pressure to be in a relationship. The drive for human companionship and not to be lonely is a basic human need. We all feel it even if we don't know we feel it.
18
Please Dan keep answering these types of letters!

1. You say they're your most common letters.

2. That means TONS of people have this problem and you're one of the ONLY places they can hear that monogamish / open / companionate + sex on the side is a viable option.

3. People need to keep hearing this! You and Esther Perel are the only famous voices and she doesn't exactly say "sleep around".

4. When I've had a rough week, after reading one of these letters, I feel sooooo much better about my life and LTR. Not schadenfreude but schaden-relief that I don't have to deal with the sexless loveless shit.
19
Crinoline, I like your analysis for the most part, but I think you might be way off on the ages of this couple and some of your interpretation is based on age-related issues. They've been together for 15 years, and LOAC says she was "very young" when they met and that she's "nearing 40" now. "Nearing" is vague, but it could presumably be anytime between 35 and 39. Given that 15 years ago, LOAC was "very young," I'd say she's closer to 35 than 39. So although some women experience symptoms starting in their late 30s, it's more typical for peri-menopause to manifest itself in late 40s, even--for some--early 50s. This means that LOAC might be years and years away from being in peri-menopause.
Also LOAC says there is a "large age difference" between she and her wife, which you've interpreted as being close to 30 years. But it could just as easily be a 15-year age difference (if they met when LOAC was in her early 20s, say 22, a 15-year age difference would be pretty large. A 36 year-old is in a significantly different place in life than a 22 year-old). That doesn't make the wife nearing 70 and poor health or death (btw, neither is a given at 70, either). It's possible that the wife is 51-56--far from elderly--and in fact the one in peri-menopause or only recently in menopause.

Not that it necessarily makes much difference in your assessment of the situation and the assigning of asshole status.
20
@delta35 - or they could just read the archives and see the dozens of times that Dan has responded to the same question with the exact same advice. Seriously, I'm surprised he doesn't have a boilerplate response that he can just copy and paste for these letters already.

Personally, I'd prefer to read more interesting and unusual letters. They interest me because it's amazing to see what kind of shenanigans our fellow human beings get themselves embroiled in in their spare time. It fascinates me that people have time and energy for all this drama - I have a hard time remembering to watch my favorite TV shows after a long day at work!
21
Congratulations, LW, you've discovered that you're polyamorous.

I think it's time to divorce the wife and go on a journey of further self-discovery. She'll be hurt, but over time she may come around to seeing you as the lifelong friend that you truly are to her, and your relationship could be better for your insistence on following your own joys in life.

Best of luck in this very difficult life transition. I see good things for you on the other side!
22
Just when I thought I was out... your tale of woe pulls me back in.

Lol.

Ok, so, it's a common problem, but isn't that a reason to keep writing about it?

Darwin, Freud, crime statistics, and my uncle-in-law Harv would tell us that sexual frustration is at the root of all human misery. As evidence, just look at what a mess straight boys are compared to the gays. Make love not war? Believe me, we're trying.

It's a theme that's been continually revisited throughout history by artists, philosophers, novelists, poets, comedians, country western bands, etc. Seems fitting for advise columnists to be on that list. Although, yes, I can understand the fatigue.
23
Cr @17
The drive for human companionship and not to be lonely is a basic human need.

That's right, but you don't need to be in a relationship to have human companionship. See: friendship. You'll need to work harder at not being lonely though because you don't have company "by default".
I think SB@11 is right about societal pressure to be in a relationship.
24
Nocute @19, I got the sense that the wife was elderly because of the "let time play out" comment (waiting for her to die???) That comment disturbs me. I think no matter how much you claim you love your wife, if you're looking forward to her death so that you can have passion again, that's more than enough indication that the relationship should be over.

It sounds like the wife might be what used to be called "stone", not sure if that term is still used.
25
Calico Cat (@24), I read that, too--and it concerned me in the same way--but I mean, we don't know if the wife is 50 or 85. I remember at age 38, when I was in a sexually miserable marriage, thinking that I wished I were menopausal or wondering if I could wait things out until menopause so I wouldn't have any sexual urges.
Well, I'm 53 now, and pretty much hornier than ever, despite being (I think) in full-blown menopause.

Regarding "stone," I had no idea what it could mean and at first google was no help. But then I thought that since the couple was a lesbian couple, it might be a word used exclusively in the lesbian community, and I remembered the phrase stone butch blues, so googled "stone butch" to find a definition that makes sense, and Ta Da! I wonder why it's a word that only gets used in that community, as it seems to be suitable for straight people, too. Maybe the word frigid (which, come to think of it, I haven't heard used in decades, so it may well be out of usage, too) means the same thing in a straighter context.
26
@24: 'Stone' didn't mean not feeling sexual, it meant not wanting others to get you off, not wanting to *be* touched sexually. Plenty of stone women had and have lots of desire to get their partners off.
27
I guess you are right. I used to be part of a lesbian sex discussion community on LJ and my memory of the term was a bit fuzzy, but I recall it being a source of mismatch for people. Personally, I probably wouldn't enjoy that kind of sex since turning my partner on turns me on. I don't really like being the sole "object".
29
I guess I'm partly wondering if she sees their sex life as unfulfilling because of a mismatch like trying to have two subs or two doms in a relationship. It probably doesn't change much in terms of the question, though; in some letters the sex can be improved if the couple works on it but here it sounds like they might just be sexually incompatible for one reason or another. It also sounds like the LW is getting excited about the new relationship energy with the affairs. I do think LW should try to make it clear to the wife that the current state of things is not working, instead of secretly getting more and more bitter. I think the best possible outcome would be for them to remain friends and business partners but separate romantically, but that would probably be difficult for a lot of people.
30
19- Nocute-- You're right, of course, on the math.

I think now we're left with that one thing that's always so hard to accept in adult life, the one about assholes. Telling LOAC to leave her loving wife is like giving an asshole a pass to act assholery or like saying you can do whatever you want as long as you feel guilty. Telling LOAC to stay with her loving wife is like punishing an asshole for no one's benefit. There aren't always good answers for the human condition.
31
@28, re #4: Thank you, I was going to say the same thing about "attracted to attraction." To tie that concept in with the one about slang terms, google "starfishing."

"I'm fucking mystified by people who aren't interested in having sex with their partners but who are nevertheless adamant that their partners not have sex with anyone else. Your wife would probably say the thought of you fucking another woman makes her miserable—miserable and insecure"

That last word clears up the mystery, doesn't it, Dan? People know perfectly well that romance and sex are bonding behaviors. Bodies manufacture chemical neurotransmitters to cement those bonds, and release them during sex. OF COURSE sex is bonding behavior. As much as they want to pretend otherwise, saying things like "Relationships are so much more than sex," they know damned well that sex is bonding, so letting their partner have sex with someone else is likely to produce a bond with that person and lose them their situation. That's why they don't want to let their partner do with others that which they cannot be bothered to participate in themselves.

Sex isn't important enough to provide, but it's important enough to deprive. It's not a mystery, it's hypocrisy.
32
LW have you had the 'come to Jesus' talk with your wife? Because I think it's time to do so, or to revisit it. Tell her what you told us. You love her, you want to be with her, but the sexless relationship isn't working. You won't leave but you will do your best to keep things discreet and away from her.

And it might be a good idea to talk to a lawyer to find a way to un-entangle your finances.
33
@28/31: I'd usually be more charitable, but she complains directly that the sex has always been terrible since the first days of her rather long-term relationship, then wants to wait out the relationship until the death of her partner (for money)... alongside all the dramatic prose, I get a very weird vibe from this letter.
34
LOAC,

You're looking for an permission to cheat. Just break up instead of trying to have your relationship cake and eat it too.
35
Which do you think would be worse for the relationship: telling your wife that you're sexually miserable and need to address that, or your wife finding out that her alleged best friend has been lying to her for years about her misery in the relationship?
36
You're already an asshole and you've already betrayed the relationship. The question isn't how to get what you want without being an asshole, it's how big an asshole you're going to be.
37
The state of Washington determined that my ex-wife deserved every penny we saved over a 15 year marriage. When compared to a miserable, sexless life? So. Damn. Cheap.

Get out. Get out as soon as you can and make a life.
38
@31 avast: and self-defeating hypocrisy to boot. If they know sex is bonding and don't do it, of course someone who wants to do it is going to be motivated to look elsewhere!

I guess people project their own ideas onto others enough that they might easily be convinced this isn't a problem for others (i.e., their partner) if it isn't for them.
39
How is it he has built his own career and yet has no assets? Almost 40 and would be broke if he leaves this woman? I call bullshit.
40
"Just when I thought I was out--they pulled me back in!"
--Dan Savage
41
@39: Started dating her.at a young age, "worked" at a position with low requirements and skillset while not developing themselves with any education, once the relationship ends, they may not have much to offer another company?

@38: What I don't get is that they complained that the sex was bad from the get-go. What was their tradeoff? Were they looking for a "patron" or someone to finance their lifestyle?
42
Speaking as someone who has tried what you're considering, but under less daunting conditions, the thing you are proposing to do behind your spouse's back is doomed to failure unless you come clean, and even then it's probably doomed anyway. Long-distance is brutal, and long-distance with no prospect of ever being together is more brutal. I also wanted to keep my marriage alive but fell for someone who was married and living far away: there were kids, financial entanglements, and a whole lot of love between me and my spouse all on the side of staying married. My paramour and I gained permission from our spouses, went ahead with our long-distance romance, and kept it going for the better part of a decade, but it was not happily ever after. It was hard on my marriage that I was in a DADT second relationship (DADT takes a toll on emotional intimacy, even with permission), and it was really, really hard to be constantly apart from my lover, not just in "pining for each other" ways but in "it's logistically and emotionally impossible to build an enduring relationship" ways, even though we loved (and still love) each other deeply and used email, video, and weekends together as much as humanly possible. Once that rush of in-love passion is over, a relationship usually shifts gears into a myriad of small, shared domestic routines and pleasures that are almost impossible to create even in our texing, Facetiming, social-media rich lives. If you want to be with your new love over the long term, then your best chance is for both of you to make clean breaks, and the sooner the better.

Please wait...

Comments are closed.

Commenting on this item is available only to members of the site. You can sign in here or create an account here.


Add a comment
Preview

By posting this comment, you are agreeing to our Terms of Use.