My two cents.
I never had a miscarriage or abortion. I had to take emergency contraception for a broken condom. The hormone wash, the near miss, the thought of what could have been if I didn't take that pill all triggered other things buried deep inside of me.
In a few days, I begun to have panick attacks and I become depressed, Depression went away in a few months thanks to some medications. Constant anxiety and panick attacks lasted years, and sometimes they still come back to haunt me.
All this was triggered by something that, if someone here called a miscarriage "minor", would be defined as infinitesimal.
Please, please don't dismiss issues linked to fertility and conception, because they have the power to rock a woman (not every woman, as XiaoGui says, but a lot of them).
Is there a possibility she's lying: of course there is, but only LW can determine if it's likely.
And no, surely ex-girlfriend doesn't OWN LW, but what caused her emotional distress was something that is half HIS. No one can be blamed for the pregnancy: she had an IUD after all, it was just bad luck, because if there is a very low chance, that doesn't mean it was zero, and sometimes that one-in-a-million just happens to be you... No one can be blame, but still, what happened to her was also his doing and I think that this calls for a little more empathy than most of commenters here have shown.
But it's easy to say: your body, your problem, isn't it?

All these alleged fake miscarriages -- how do you know they were fake? #71, Three-quarters of no-longer-pregnant women confided in you that they faked a miscarriage? Perhaps you need some new friends.

Miscarriages are incredibly common. You have no idea because no one talks about it, but once you start talking, you realize that most of the women you know (once you get to a certain age) have had one or more.

I had an early medication abortion after an ex stalked and raped me, and I also had a miscarriage when I was married and trying to conceive. The physical cramping and hormones were bad, but the horror at watching myself flush that not-a-baby down the toilet was devastating. Wanted, not wanted -- the physical stuff is the same. I get that some women have an abortion and never give it a second thought, but that's not everyone's experience.

I had a weird pull, like a compulsion, where I wanted to talk about the pregnancies a LOT. With the miscarriage I had a supportive husband, so that was fine. But the rape and abortion -- I actually tracked that guy down years later and sat him down to tell the rapist all about the abortion. I wanted him to feel *something* even though I still don't really know what I expected him to say. I would have been seriously pissed off at being called a liar, though.

My point is that pregnancy is like nothing else, and it's quite dismissive and disrespectful to assume the woman is lying for attention when she wants to process what happened.

@ 93 - No Lava, I'm not an apologist. Reread the last line of my post.

I said that you should not expect empathy. Compassion, yes. But they are two different things. Men simply cannot feel what women feel in such circumstances because of an obvious biological fact. If you (impersonal you) expect more than compassion, like the line I was answering suggests, then you're deluding yourself.

So I agree with you that a guy should listen, be the shoulder to cry on, and do his best to support the woman, but only because it's a big deal to her (and you should always help your friends/people you have or had a relationship with as much as you can when they're going through something that affects them that much). But expecting him to share her feelings is way too much.

@95: "Her hormones do not trump his boundaries. Reverse the genders. Imagine she had a miscarriage or an abortion and didn't tell him because she felt fine about it. Months after they've broken up he suddenly re-contacts her and says he found out about it from a mutual friend and he needs emotional closure. She's not interested in discussing it further, but he insists. How okay would that be?"

This, exactly. It's like... your ex wants to talk to you about something extremely fraught, and you don't want to talk to your ex.

Who wins?

Let's say you dumped someone six months ago, and now they're insisting on an explanation why. How 'bout no?

Dear humanity: Let other people have the same rights you want for yourself. This isn't complicated. Nothing about you is special; there are no traits that make someone less entitled to be treated like a human being. Gender is a trait; see previous sentence.

So we assume people are lying when there is no evidence that they are? Because some woman somewhere once lied about a miscarriage.

miscarriage rates

Please see the rates concerning miscarrage: http://americanpregnancy.org/pregnancy-c…

10-25 % of pregnancies already confirmed end in miscarriage. I've heard when you talk about ones that haven't been confirmed yet, the number is above 30 %. Miscarriages are very very common.

iud pregnancies

http://www.parents.com/pregnancy/signs/s…
http://www.mirena-us.com/frequently-aske…

Although unusual, pregnancies on iuds are not unheard of. Even Mirena recognizes it.

_______________

Most importantly, LW himself does not think she's lying, stirring drama, or is "super jealous" because he's dating someone new, even though she's dating someone new. There is a whole lot of gender stereotyping going on, and it isn't the feminazi "women can do no wrong" brigade.

I forget what we call it again when someone paints an entire gender based on the actions of a few?

Oh and @70? Just because I found abortion extremely upsetting is not a referendum on what the entire female half of the human species experiences. Please recognize then, that while you might not have found it upsetting, other people have and do. I had several miscarriages, myself, and none of them kicked me in the gut quite like that first one. None, of course, were nearly as gory.

I can't help but think the "pro-ex" side of this is missing the "pro-LW" side's main argument. The relevant question is not whether the miscarriage is a big deal. It's whether this is even LW's problem.

Suppose ex had used a sperm donor, gotten pregnant, delivered the baby, then suffered a crib-death a few months in. I think everyone would agree that is a horrific experience and ex absolutely needs to talk to someone about it. Now suppose ex tracks down the sperm donor and calls him up to talk about her trauma. The sperm donor might listen to her for a while, but he is absolutely within his rights to set firm boundaries. He can refuse to meet her face-to-face, he can screen her calls, etc.-- all without being an asshole. Because this isn't his problem. The fact that ex totally, understandably needs therapy does not entitle her to therapy from him.

Now suppose ex got pregnant from LW, delivered the baby, and suffered a crib-death. The trauma breaks them up (which is pretty common), and they each move on with their lives and start seeing other people. Later on, LW calls ex and wants to talk about their lost child in detail. Ex can listen to him for a while but is within her rights to set the same boundaries without being an asshole. Because they are broken up. LW's emotional well-being is no longer ex's problem, and vice versa.

Now if the broken up parents of a deceased child are not entitled to therapy sessions from each other, why would a miscarriage be any different?

Aside: I gather some posters-- like @106-- think exes are supposed to provide shoulders to cry on, into perpetuity. Here I respectfully disagree: while you can of course remain friends with exes, an ex who is not a friend is not entitled to any special consideration. It's possible the dispute really boils down to this issue.

A sperm donor, seriously? A sperm donor gives his sperm with a clear understanding that he won't have either parental rights or parental responsibilities. A man who has sex with a woman always risks becoming a parent no matter how much protection is used.

@ 109 - Thanks for pointing that out. I meant if you're friends with your ex, of course, just forgot to write it coz it was early morning.

IHSN @109: Why are you so opposed to a little kindness and compassion?

JEB cared for this woman once, and together they made an accidental pregnancy happen. Maybe he doesn't owe her anything since they broke up, but isn't "not being an asshole" its own reward? I like to think so.

@108: XiaoGui17 @70 was responding to a comment that said "There's always some grief (however small) for what might have been" (emphasis added). In other words, you're scolding her for pointing out that the experience of the poster commenting @30 is not universal... by arguing that her experience is not universal. No kidding. That was her exact point.

The question of whether the miscarriage was real or not is an irrelevant distraction. The issue here is about consent. LW does not wish to consent to further discussion of the miscarriage and wants to know the best way to set that boundary. Commenters here insisting that he has some obligation to continue talking to his ex are ethically way out of line. He is not consenting, and saying that he should give in because of her hormones is no different from telling a woman she should keep going on dates with a guy she isn't into ("what's the big deal, it's just a hour of your time"). She is his ex. That means their relationship is over. Expired. Extinguished. Past tense. Finished. Done. To argue that he has to continue to talk to her about this is to argue that he does not have the right to say no to her. Is he an asshole for not wanting to talk to her? No, just like she wouldn't be a frigid bitch for not wanting to go on a date with him. Right?

@110: Did you even read the subsequent paragraph, or just scroll down to dash off your comment as soon as you read "sperm donor"? That example merely establishes that horrific experience alone does not entitle one to therapy from a person of one's choosing. The next paragraph contains the relevant analogy.

@111: Ah, understood. Didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I was just looking for an example of that undercurrent and your comment was the closest. :)

@112: LW can be as kind and compassionate as he wants. He's apparently reached the limit of that kindness with his ex and wants to disengage. My point is that he's not an asshole for doing so.

If this guy wants to be an arsehole, and not take responsibity for what he helped set in motion, then yes, his bloody important boundaries are of the utmost importance. Nothing to fucking do with ethics. It's to do with being a human being showing some compassion , empathy and yes, responsibility.
I am surely in the realm of disbief that this subject has taken up so many comments. And I offer my heartfelt condolences to women who are still of fertility age, if these examples of men are similar to the poor sods they have to work with.

@ 114 - Since I didn't specify that they had to be in friendly terms, your interpretation of my comment was actually quite correct... just not what I wanted to say. My fault. I just have to learn not to comment so early.

It probably does have something to do with ethics, using that word is a distancing play.

In this world of female contraception and condoms( how not very far has male contraception come), it's easy to forget what heterosexual sex can make happen. It makes people. People like all of us here. Yes, a good nine months is needed to create a fully formed human.. But once conceived he/ she exists.
I haven't had a miscarriage or an abortion, I have had six pregnancies to term. The emotional terrain involved in these occurrences, I can only project about. And as one of the wise women posters here said above, every pregnancy is different.
Every pregnancy though has the same potential, which is to give birth to a person. Just like all of us here.
A moment or two to reflect, if a pregnancy is ceased, either from miscarriage or abortion.. Why is that seemingly beyond some people's comprehension?
Too hard, too real, too emotional. Whatever the reasons are, that this subject has generated so much bullshit.. doesn't change the reality.
Whatever this woman's intentions might have been, she got pregnant. She had a miscarriage. A new life was installed then left her body.
This is not nothing.

@115: So you'd be okay if there was no miscarriage but he called her up out of the blue months after the breakup and wanted to have ongoing conversations about why they broke up, how lonely and heartbroken he is, how horny he is, how he's having trouble dating, whatever his hormones are putting him through, for as long as he needed her to be there for him, and if she said no she'd be an asshole for not taking responsibility for what she helped set in motion. Right?

Consent is for everybody or it doesn't work.

There's no child here. There is no third person. You don't get to say "abortion is okay because a fetus is not a person" and also say "a miscarriage of an unwanted pregnancy is traumatic because it's the death of a child". Go back and read #109 again. Sure, she's feeling hormonal. Her feelings are no longer his problem.

I am puzzled by the timing here ... *several months* of no communication, then a miscarriage when she apparently didn't even notice she was pregnant? How far along was she when she miscarried?? Did the very last communication several months ago involve exchange of body fluids???
Unless she was quite far along when she miscarried and somehow did not notice she was pregnant, it seems just as likely that the new boyfriend is the father of the miscarried baby as the old one. It may be she wants to work thru some of her feelings about this with a surrogate boyfriend before dumping them on the current one ... or perhaps she has convinced herself that the earlier bf was the father to create an emotional safety valve for these feelings - which CAN be much like the death of a child. Even though a child was not wanted at this time, that loss can still be devastating. Emotions often don't make rational sense.

LavaGirl I don't think anyone is saying the ex doesn't deserve compassion and a sympathetic ear, only she needs to find them in people who are a part of her life and invested in her. Not an ex who is out of her life and seems to want no part in it.

The thing is you can't force people to feel the way you want them too. The LW can't and shouldn't be bullied or harassed into caring. The truth is he can't help her. What she needs really isn't something he can give her and he shouldn't be expected to torpedo his own life in an attempt to 'save' her from this.

Robby @120 - I'm not surprised that it would take a few months after the miscarriage before the ex finally called. She may have spent that time trying to squelch the emotions brought on by hormonal surges, loss of control over her own body, anger that a 99% effective birth control had failed -- OMG I was pregnant, but that should be OK because I didn't want to be pregnant, but now I wonder if I'll ever be pregnant again, but do I ever even want to be pregnant? -- but she finally broke down and gave LW a call. Because, yeah, he's the father of what might have been, and her current partner is not. (It's certainly not a discussion topic I'd be able to handle gracefully and sensitively, if I were her new partner.) Note that LW says that "during the phone call" she said she had miscarried - implying that it wasn't even the main subject of the call for him, although it probably was for her. LW was mostly worried that she said she wanted to talk more about it later. I agree with many others that LW is not an asshole for not wanting to be on the hook for continuing emotional support and therapy, since he did man up during the initial call. But I think he can afford to let her down gently, not harshly, simply by pointing out that he is neither her current partner nor a qualified therapist. (If it were me, I might also suggest to her that my own new partner was feeling very uncomfortable about me re-establishing contact with the ex, and confirm that by keeping my new partner fully informed about the whole situation so s/he knew what was going on.)

I'm so surprised to hear talk of women lying about miscarriages. It's not something I've ever heard about, although I know plenty of women who have had them - this is possibly related to the fact that lots of my friends have had babies in the 35-40 age range which is more risky. I've had three miscarriages, all when I had known I was pregnant for several weeks, and they were truly awful. My husband was terribly upset by each one, but the effects went on longer for me.
The only time I've heard someone talking about fake miscarriage is a few years ago, when a family friend was having an affair with a woman who apparently was pregnant and then miscarried. The family line is that she lied about the whole thing to try and keep him seeing her, but they have no evidence either way. I think it was a way to paint her as the bad guy. I have pointed out that they have nothing to base this on, but it makes no difference to them.

There are so many exceptions to this miscarriage that this is clearly an issue, not with miscarriage or pregnancy, or the once relationship but for the ex, and the ex only. This is a personal issue for her alone. She is having an emotional issue that needs to be addressed. This miscarriage is a catalyst and the would-be father is classic transference.

She needs to see a therapist and sort out whatever is happening to her. I say this with no dismissal or malice. People have emotional hiccups.

But calling this guy, months after having a surprise miscarriage of a would-be-aborted pregnancy is reaching. REACHING.

She is in need of something and this is the most comfortable path she currently sees. This is a man she was intimate with and it so much easier to find a reason to reconnect with a previous intimate than to Google and research and pay for a good therapist.

I feel for her, but she's clearly over stepping boundaries and laying on guilt inappropriately. She may not even be aware of it's inappropriateness, but this isn't his burden. AT. ALL.

@Lava (@99) I'm glad you put your years of human physiology education and research into forming an opinion on what is good for other people to do to their bodies.

So, duh, we don't hear about most miscarriages with people we're not with. That's why I was intentional with my phrasing.

What I was getting at is that the constellation of behaviors is not foreign to a typical, western adult man: most menpeople have had a partner attempt to effectively extort emotional attention from them; of the many techniques possible, the "fake miscarriage" is not uncommon or unheard of. It pops in to many people's minds that the EX is reaching out for reasons other than healthy emotional support and closure because it has happened to many people and is a behavior that most people have experienced and had to learn the hard way to recognize.

Sure, you may have already won the sweepstakes; that Nigerian e-mailing you might really need help; and so on. We learn from experience, we get a spidey-sense when people have ulterior motives. Some of us are optimists and want to believe the best, others feel too burned to allow it to happen again. LW's spidey sense is clearly tingling. Why should he ignore that?

PinkMotorcycle, DarkHorseRising,

Who's assuming?

Catching up on this thread after a week or so makes the "JEB" initials much harder to get past.

@113: "To argue that he has to continue to talk to her about this is to argue that he does not have the right to say no to her. Is he an asshole for not wanting to talk to her? No, just like she wouldn't be a frigid bitch for not wanting to go on a date with him. Right?"

This, exactly. Though I suspect we're a long, long way from having it be widely-believed that men have the right to say no to women. "My consent matters, yours doesn't" seems to be more popular now.

I guarantee that not one of this thread's anti-consent activists would be having this problem if the genders were reversed, because they're acting purely out of Privilege Defense Mode.

As to the issue of Schrodinger's Miscarriage, fetish in 126 says it all. "This thing never happens!" is a dumb thing to yell at people who've had it happen to them often enough.