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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
Because she wants affirmation that the ex still wants her. This is the healthiest LW we've had in quite a while. Stay that way, JEB!
IUDs are about as close to 100% foolproof as anything can be, safer even, than getting your tube tied.
She should to to her girlfriends for support from now on, now you know and have said your piece.
But I can't help thinking that this is important enough to her that she is bringing it up a while since they broke up. I suspect that this is something that needs the perspective of someone who understands the process of grieving for a lost pregancy - even an unwanted one. Surely Dan you could get a second opinion from one of your contacts at planned parenthood?
Maybe she's still working through that.
If anything, this interaction is a validation for him that his ex girlfriend was not the one. Kudos for being a gentleman!
It *is* possible to get pregnant with an IUD, happened to a friend of mine. Understandable that she might be emotional about it, but it happened months ago. She should talk to one of her girlfriends if she doesn't feel comfortable talking to her new partner (which she might not if it's bringing up regrets about the ex). If she contacts him again JEB can just say "I'm sorry that happened; was there some reason you wanted to talk to me about it?"
If anything, this interaction is a validation for him that his ex girlfriend was not the one. Kudos for being a compassionate gentleman.
LW, don't look for an ulterior motive here. And don't look to understand your ex's emotional response. I think she may need to grieve a lost child, with his/ her father.
That you're asking it this way means you're doing pretty well. #8 is on the money. Sadly, so is #10. It's okay to move on. You don't need anyone else's permission, even if they think you do.
"Dodged a bullet, didn't we?"
"On the bright side, no dream-crushing unplanned child to care for."
"I always thought we'd produce hideous children anyway."
"It's better this way, you'd have made a horrible mother."
She's being massively unreasonable. If "a lost child" is the way she sees it, then she's trying to get him to grieve with her over the "child" that she herself would have killed, had the miscarriage not solved things for her. She told him that herself. You can't have it both ways.
I suggest she find a counselor to work this out with. Dragging him into it at this late date is fucking with the heads of everyone in the situation, especially the two new relationship partners.
I think it was Miss Manners who said that repeating "it's just not possible" would resolve any sticky conversation.
In no case is it helpful to go into explanation of why you're not in a good position to be her counselor friend. If she doesn't already know why, then she's just going to argue with the reasons you give -- bad for everybody.
She lost a baby, her body had already started doing its come to mamma routine. You have no idea.
LW, sometimes a ritual can aid in letting the foetus go. Ask her how she would like you to help her deal with it.
The LW is not obligated to be the therapist for an even that happened months ago. And I wonder if this isn't a way to fuck up his relationship than something she needs to talk about.
This is harder for her than it might have been in some different circumstances, but... this is where they are right now. And she can get through this talking to someone else. I mean, I hope she can.
(2) And suddenly wants support several months after the alleged miscarriage happened?
(3) And is planning ahead for a second phone call when she knows you're both attached?
That just hit my triple cherry BULL$HIT jackpot.
Don't let your desire to be a nice guy let you get used and manipulated. Read Dan's advice to WDID here. Less NyQuil, more blunt.
LW says they haven't talked for several months, so either the pregnancy was past the first trimester before the miscarriage, or his ex hasn't been able to get over it quickly. If the ex is heavy set or was under a lot of stress, it's very possible that she could have been quite far along in her pregnancy without knowing she was pregnant, and perhaps had the miscarriage at home. This could be quite traumatic. She probably called him because she thought he would more likely to feel as she does than anyone else.
Since the LW contributed to the pregnancy, he should make some acknowledgment that this was a significant thing that happened. Probably this is all that she needed to hear. He can be honest, and tell her that while he can't feel as she does, because his body wasn't changed by the experience, he understands that she is sad. That might be all she needs, to have her feelings validated. LW can also suggest and help pay for a few counseling sessions to help her get over her grief. It's the responsible and decent thing to do. If he doesn't want to do this, then just be honest and say he isn't the one she should talk to, because they are no longer anything to each other. Then he should make sure to be responsible for birth control whenever he has sex going forward, and not just rely on/expect his partner(s) to take care of it.
There are some notable differences between LW's ex and me. While my pregnancy was unplanned, it would have been very much wanted. Also, my ex and I were on friendly speaking terms. To complicate things even further, my niece was born the same month that my child would have been born.
It still hurts, over 5 years later. I thought that if he grieved with me, it wouldn't hurt so badly. I was wrong. He didn't grieve much, and I felt even more alone. It didn't help that I was in an emotionally abusive relationship and couldn't tell my partner about it. And I couldn't tell my family without "ruining" the joy of my sister's pregnancy. (Or so my depressed brain convinced me what would happen.)
Given my own experience, I really don't think LW's ex has ulterior motives. I think she just desperately wants someone to acknowledge her pain. Counseling might be helpful for her. I know it's helping me.
XiaoGui17@29: Your link doesn't work, seems to be missing the URL.
She may just need him to acknowledge it happened. If it becomes some sort of ongoing thing, then yes, he needs to pull the plug on her.
Can't see him meeting with her at least once, is such a problem.
By now it's probably a mental attachment, her body should have calmed down after a couple of months.
Why such surprise from people, mainly male people? Without the hormones to attach to a growing foetus, how many women you think would voluntarily go thru pregnancy?
He did acknowledge that it happened and tried to be "as supportive as possible". Hormones or no hormones, I don't see any reason why he's responsible for doing more than that, unless there's a medical bill (which he should help pay), but she doesn't appear to have mentioned one.
The ex needs to see a professional therapist if she needs to talk this through and work out her feelings further. LW has moved on from the relationship and so has the ex (supposedly). LW owes her nothing beyond what he's already done. He gave her a sympathetic ear when presented with the facts, but their relationship is over so take it to a pro it you need to work it out.
It's totally valid for the ex to have that need to work this out, but LW doesn't have that same need.
If she rings again, LW, meet her and just try to feel the loss of your own child as you acknowledge her loss.
If you meet her emotionally, then that might be enough.
I think JEB did fine, and I agree that he should kindly tell her he can't offer anything else and that counseling or a close female friend would be a more appropriate outlet for her to work through this.
And another male leaving the contraception up to the female to sort. Then has the hide to imply she might be lying about the IUD failing. Geez.
1) she is ALSO a normal, compassionate person who has gone through something traumatic and is reaching out to the one person who she thinks is reasonable to share it with (they are both normal conmpassionate people afterall, who presumably had a healthy relationship where they shared things with each other) OR
2) she's a manipulative bitch who is playing games with her ex because bitches be crazy amirite??
It's sad that so many commenters think it's the second one.
I didn't see any implication that she might be lying about the IUD failing. More that he briefly considered she was making up a pregnancy story and quickly decided she wasn't. I think that sadly, enough women lie about pregnancies that it's something men do consider.
Also, there is no support anywhere for "momma hormones" spontaneously appearing months after a miscarriage and months of no contact. Coupled with the IUD, there are a lot of highly unlikely things happening in the ex's account. The LW chose to believe her, but I'd give it at least a 75% that he was wrong.
@41: "It is with him, that she wants to work thru this experience. "
He doesn't want to "work thru" it with her. And he's not obligated to. End of story. What she wants him to do is irrelevant; they're not in a relationship. When the relationship ends, you no longer get a vote in what your ex does.
Not one of you would be having this problem if the genders were reversed. What your exes want you to do does not matter, because they are not the boss of you.
The less-enlightened parts of this thread, as well as the ex herself, reek of the popular cultural belief that if a woman has sex with you, she owns you forever. Reality check: You don't own other people. There are no exceptions. Gender and past sexual activity don't change that, because there are no exceptions.
Once the relationship is over, you don't get a say in how your exes spend their time. They are not your property; they don't work for you.
...I mean, unless they actually do work for you, but that's the kind of thing you should check with HR about.
Doesn't sound to me like he's given her anything emotionally. He may have said all the right words, I don't get that he recognized it was his behaviour that contributed to her pregnancy. It was the miscarriage that has lead to her distress.
And it was his potential child, that died. Don't men feel anything when they own that link? Or it's just better to put up all the barricades, as this LW is doing.
She is asking for some emotional confort, to help her grieve the lost foetus. From the only other person involved in creating it. Why is that so hard for people to see as a very valid request.
Ha, isn't that funny, you've now got me taking the dude's side. Actually I am on both of their sides. No one is in the wrong here.
So I don't read a lot of malice or manipulation or ownership in the ex's actions. I could very much see her having a hang over from the event and needing some one to speak with. And who can she talk to? It was only when I started to speak of my own experience that other women shared theirs. This something rarely discussed, actually. People always think it only happened to them.
Until ths moment, lw has not identified any action which would display his ex as manipulative, interfering, jealous, or crazy. Their break up was amicable. She is dating someone else. She has left lw entirely alone.
Likely she does feel like LW is the only one she can speak with on this issue.
That said, I think LW (bravo LW) has done all he can do thus far. He has discharged his duties under the good behavior to ex's rule. The truth is, if she is still wobbling so many months later, she should find a support group to discuss her feelings with people who understand and have been there. Because even compassionate people say stupid things. My husband said to me, kindly, it's nature's way, and I wanted to stick a fork in his eye. The thing is? I would have said the exact same thing to comfort someone had it not happened to me.
Peace out LW. You've done what you can and ought. If she calls about this subject again, say it's a minefield, you care about her and don't want to step on one, and send her to a support group.
That's like saying George W Bush "kept us safe." One or two really noticeable exceptions spring to mind, don't they?
No bad guys.
LW doesn't have to talk to her if he doesn't want to, but now he knows what pregnancy can do to a sexual partner. If the hormones are going to make her depressed and ruin her life for months even if there's never any baby, it's a bigger deal than he'd thought. Now he knows, and so does she.
1. One swallow does not make a summer. No one is perfectly rational all time. LW doesn't consider her crazy or manipulative and he seems like a level headed guy, so I will go with him. He slept with her and broke up with her.
2. Re "keeping us safe." I don't blame bush for 911 anymore than I blame Obama for san bernidino. Unless one wishes to live behind an iron curtain, "keeping us safe" is not mutually exclusive with a terrorist attack happening on us soil.
I dont expect perfection in people or governments.
Short answer: no. Or more precisely, very rarely.
Men produce zillions of spermatozoa (most of which end up in a kleenex or some such place). Emotional attachment to one of them is not normal male behaviour, and it would really be unrealistic to ask that of men.
Also, they don't carry the baby, they don't give birth, they don't breastfeed it, and, too often, they don't really take care of it.
Doesn't that tell you everything you need to know on the subject?
Well, that depends on what you're drinking...
But claiming "I never had a drink" when you did is kind of... not true?
Similarly, if a terrorist attack happened and thousands of people died, then "kept us safe" is not what anyone did. Whether you expected them to has nothing to do with it. People who have been killed are not "safe," and if a bunch of people died violently, claiming to have kept them safe is lying. Those dead people? Not very safe.
The guy getting called by someone he doesn't want to talk to, who's trying to leverage him into more contact? "Left entirely alone" is not what he is. That's actually the opposite: Left entirely alone is what he would be if she wasn't calling him.
If you'd said "left mostly alone," or anything that was compatible with a universe in which she was calling him (instead of leaving him alone), we wouldn't be having this conversation. Similarly, if she actually had left him entirely alone, we wouldn't be having this conversation either, because the letter wouldn't exist. See the difference?
She might have had feelings from an abortion too, and might rightly have expected a little support from ex in dealing with the planned end of pregnancy.
If you want to live your world in absolutes and dispose of people like LW's ex as evil or bad because they did not respond exactly as you would have them respond all the time forever in everything, go for it. I will keep my opinion with LW, who knew the girl personally.
And I am not going any further with you here, witty sexual play on the word Swallow or not.
I was just struck by the parallel between "She left him entirely alone" when she didn't, and "He kept us safe" when he didn't. The only reason we're having this conversation is because she did not leave him entirely alone.
Queston 2: Eudaemonic, how did you find out your ex was lying about the miscarriage?
As for the LW's situation, I think @30 and @31's stories should serve as a warning to anyone willing o easily dismiss this, but I think you go a bit far @biDanFan in calling @1 a heartless bastard. The experience might have been traumatic for his gf, but it doesn't change the fact that it's not very appropriate for him to be her support person in this. Expecting him to be as upset about it as she is will only lead to disappointment and they have each moved on. She needs to have an emotional support system that doesn't involve him. Calling him about it and then saying she wanted to talk more about it later with him is a huge billowing red flag here. If she's struggling with this, stirring up old feelings with her ex is the last thing she needs to do. LW should be sympathetic but enforce some healthy boundaries here.
But now I think he does need to "blow her off" for her own good. Whatever the whammy it put on her, steeping in it over and over again with the ex is not really a healthy way to move on for either of them. If she has unresolved issues it may be time to talk to her family, friends, new boyfriend, or a therapist if she wants to keep it confidential.
If she contacts him again I'd suggest the LW be cordial but stern saying something like "I'm sorry this happened but I'm not interested in going over it again" and let her go.
Fact 1: An IUD is not effective at preventing an ectopic pregnancy, in which the fertilized egg implants somewhere other than in the uterus (usually in a Fallopian tube). An ectopic pregnancy ends in either miscarriage or emergency medical treatment to end the pregnancy, as it threatens the mother's life and there is no way the implanted egg can grow to viability outside the uterus. Some medical studies have indicated that an IUD may actually increase the risk of ectopic pregnancy, but that has not been firmly established.
Fact 2: It is rare but quite possible to have a fertilized egg implant in the uterus of a woman using an IUD. However, her risk of miscarriage is increased by approximately 50 percent. In fact, most doctors advise against removing the device if the woman decides to continue the pregnancy, due to the very high risk of miscarriage. Full-term IUD pregnancies are well-documented in medical literature, including a few stories of babies who were born clutching the IUD. More often it emerges with the placenta.
Opinion: The ex wasn't lying, she did suffer a miscarriage, and LW was right to follow his kind instincts and try to be supportive. And even though it came as an unexpected and unwanted surprise, it was perfectly normal for her to want to call him and share the bittersweet fact of their lost pregnancy. (Let's face it, her current partner is probably not too keen to help her process the loss of another man's baby.) Now that they have had that important conversation, I think it's perfectly OK to gently discourage the ex from any further contact. If she does call back, it's not ass-holish for LW to remind her that he is neither her current lover nor a professional counselor. She'll get the picture.
I had an abortion. It was a simple, matter-of-fact, straightforward decision for me. No regrets, no grief, no pain.
Posts that purport to speak for all women who have had abortions are offensive because they deny my experience as legitimate or make me out to be some sort of monster for not feeling what "all women" are supposed to feel under the same circumstances.
They also fuel the pro-life garbage that claims abortions should be avoided because they are universally traumatizing. I refuse to flagellate myself in shame in order to appease that crowd.
@40: For every woman I know who has experienced a genuine miscarriage, I've seen three fake ones as an excuse to get extended attention from an ex, especially once he found a new girlfriend. Add in the IUD, and I don't think it's at all unreasonable to question her account. Sorry, not sorry.
Calling someone a "heartless bastard" for questioning a fishy story is exactly what enables lies about this kind of thing. The fact that the LW errs on the side of believing her in order to be a "nice guy" indicates to me that he's taking her at her word precisely because it's taboo to question whether someone really had a miscarriage--which is exactly why manipulative women pick it as their con.
@42: What's more likely here? Consider that the odds of getting knocked up with an IUD are very, very, very low. That makes the odds that she's lying much, much higher. It isn't sexism to acknowledge that there are manipulative people who tell horrible lies, that some of them are female, and that the unlikelihood of her story makes it worth considering the very real possibility that she may be one of them.
There's an odd point about the "Women Never Lie" crowd that they don't seem to get, which is that to say women don't lie is to say that women aren't human. But they are. All people are people; no exceptions. People lie.
I'm not heartless. It's just, i've experienced a decent amount of life and have seen that the insides of most peoples souls are much darker that we'd like to believe. I've had the exes, observed other peoples exes, and been the ex myself that periodically likes to scrape the scab of an old relationship just to see if the blood is still red. It's not a nice thing to do, it's a controlling type of behavior. When someone has made clear they've moved on from you, it's at best an act of reckless disregard to continue contacting them.
The time for the ex to use LW as a support structure was when she learned she was pregnant and had had a miscarriage. Was that a painful time for her? Did she feel guilt, shame, and any number of other negative emotions that made it difficult to talk about? I'm sure she did. That's normal behavior. But, as with many opportunities in life, she just missed the boat when they broke up, and broke off all contact. Life is frequently like that - you only get one shot to do something and oftentimes it passes you by without you even knowing it. There are times when the only option available to you is painful and you aren't ready for it (most situations in life, really)
Whenever I want to discuss something of major importance to me, Mr. Q will listen, but will want to be done with the conversation sooner than I want to.
Maybe it's just a case of differing communication styles. Maybe she needs to rehash this for longer than a 10 minute conversation, that is, until she feels she has said her piece.
Those of you attributing nefarious reasons to LW's ex seem not to understand that it takes some people longer to feel heard than others. And I agree with those who remind us that the experience of pregnancy is different for each woman. I never mourned my abortion, but ten years later, I did experience a twinge of "what could have been." So maybe we could cut this woman some slack?
My answer: don't take the next call. You've both moved on, and there's no need to reengage her over a non-issue.
After reading all of the comments, I wonder why nobody has stopped to ask themselves how the woman's current partner would feel if asked to listen to her go on about something that happened before they were together. If her current partner is as compassionate as the people that I had to deal with after my loss, he will probably tell her that she needs to get over it. He might -- like so many readers -- also think she is hung up on her ex.
Not everyone goes to a counselor as a first line of defense. Maybe she thought that the father of her lost child would share similar feelings, and that they could talk through it. He would know better than anyone what was happening during that time in their lives. And maybe the reason this shit is coming up for her now is that she has a NEW partner, and is having sex again with somebody NEW, and is afraid that the same thing will happen again, since she had taken precautions in the first place, and still was unable to prevent this traumatic event from happening.
When a woman is in a position where she is not afforded control of her own body, it's scary as hell. An unwanted pregnancy that happened WITH contraception was the first loss of control. Then, the miscarriage was another loss of control. Does she really want to talk to a new partner about all of this heavy stuff? Is dating someone new the same as being in a committed LTR?
Props to those of you who recognize the need for compassion here. While I personally have never met a woman who has lied about a pregnancy or miscarriage, I sure do hear a lot of stories about them, so I assume they must happen. It's possible that the LW is just a really nice guy who thinks that one conversation is the same as being supportive, but I thought the whole thing sounded very cold. No, he does not owe her anything, but I don't think he deserves a cookie for saying "I did the bare minimum to earn the Decent Person card. Am I off the hook yet?" The letter is missing entirely too much information for us to be passing judgement about whether he is a nice guy or she is creating drama. The bottom line is that pain sucks, and being in pain doesn't mean she still wants his dick. Geez!
For gods sake, you guys. Take responsibility for your cocks and what comes out of them.
Yes, the LW is behaving correctly by being awkwardly sympathetic but drawing a clear boundary. She might have been pregnant and then miscarried, so there's no reason to be a cad. However, she might have been making up a story to connect with him, so there's good reason to decline to be drawn in.
For there to be even odds that it was a story we only have to believe that 1/8,000 girlfriends would reach out to an ex with this kind of hook. Now, none of us know 8,000 women. But we probably all know at least one woman who we suspect would be capable of telling a story in a bid for connection. So that she was doing that is well within the realm of possibility.
*** *** ***
And yes, thank you XiaoGui17 @70.
@83: LW isn't her partner or even her friend. He's her EX-partner, one he hadn't heard from in months. Even if she needs support, she should get it from someone who is actually in her life.
And for everyone saying they know more fake miscarriages than real ones - you know far more women who have had miscarriages than you will ever know. Almost every woman in my life, with the exception of my mother, has been through one. They simply never talked about it until I was open about mine.
I sure hope the person she is with now, uses condoms. That she has learnt her lesson.
It doesn't actually matter. JEB should be sympathetic and be done. There is not even any achievement unlocked if JEB is successfully unsympathetic to someone who's lying. So what's the point of trying?
JEB, I think I missed one thing -- do read over people's accounts of their miscarriages, here and elsewhere. Assess whether you think you were truly sympathetic or you tried but you didn't really get it enough to engage. Odds are you will encounter another miscarriage.
Wow. That must suck, I'm sorry.
She wants to talk about how she felt, when she had a miscarriage. Big romantic hook there.
More like a reality shot of what many women probably go thru by themselves, not wanting to even check if the man might be able to support and listen to her, because chances are he won't be available for that.
Fucking bunch of cowards with cocks they should keep to themselves.
LavaGirl, I am totally with you in all that you've said. I am saddened by the lack of sensitivity that seems to make up the default position of so many posters here. And Dan too... Just no concept of what it means to carry life inside you, wanted or not.
That's the whole point. Men will never understand that. Women should tailor their expectations of men according to this inescapable fact: it will never be as big a deal for the man as it is for the woman. Never. Expecting that a man will or even can provide the level of empathy that women need in such situations is just foolish.
Please note that I'm not saying men's indifference is a good thing - it just is.
A man knows how to listen, doesn't he? He knows how to offer comfort to another human in pain? That is what is needed.
Her hormones do not trump his boundaries. Reverse the genders. Imagine she had a miscarriage or an abortion and didn't tell him because she felt fine about it. Months after they've broken up he suddenly re-contacts her and says he found out about it from a mutual friend and he needs emotional closure. She's not interested in discussing it further, but he insists. How okay would that be?
A foetus is the creation of two people. He wouldn't have the right to stop her having an abotion, as it is happening in her body.
I do believe he'd have the right to express grief, if that is his response, and she needs to listen to him, and offer him comfort.
" her hormones do not trump his boundaries".
It is not her hormones, Chase.
It was / is her experience. What she went thru, when she had a miscarriage. She wants him to hear of that experience. No, he can't go thru it directly.. He can listen and find some emotion in himself, maybe something like regret, that he didn't take the sharing of his sperm a bit more seriously.
As well as being an adult man, and giving her an hour of his time and a cuddle for support; he may, just may, in the future, take s bit more care when planting his seed.
Some possibilities are listed @39.
"@83: LW isn't her partner or even her friend. He's her EX-partner.."
Masque wasn't talking about LW being a good partner or friend. They were talking about YOU. File under: heartless bastard.
Alison @82 gets it exactly right: "She might have been pregnant and then miscarried, so there's no reason to be a cad. However, she might have been making up a story to connect with him, so there's good reason to decline to be drawn in." There's no downside to kindness.
Kennedar @85: "And for everyone saying they know more fake miscarriages than real ones - you know far more women who have had miscarriages than you will ever know. " Absolutely this. No one comes into work announcing they had a miscarriage over the weekend, do they?
Ricardo and Lava: You are both right. Men can't ever understand. Just like you, Lava, can't ever understand why someone would want to have gender reassignment surgery. But men can and should be expected to understand that, while they can't fathom it, it's hugely important to the women they love, or once loved, or at least fucked, so they owe it to them to listen and sympathise as best they can. And LW did that, in this case. He did listen and sympathise to the best of his ability. He didn't blow her off, and he's wondering how to go about being a good person while maintaining his own boundaries. Again, no bad guys here.
I do understand why people want gender reassignment surgery. My position has always been that the body is an intricate mechanism. Any surgery will compromise its integrity.
And yes.. This guy didn't blow her off, on the phone. She wants a face to face meeting.
Trans* issues here, is a total red herring,Fan. And if you had read my posts in one of the threads last week, I have changed my understanding.
Let's just rehash the issue here. There was a child conceived, he , like her, was a parent.
He, like her, lost a potential child.
He is Involved here. While his body has no record of this experience, his mind knows it happened.
But you've added a detail to the letter that isn't there. JEB never said his ex wanted a face-to-face meeting. He said, "She has expressed interest in talking about all of it again in the future and is really upset about it."