Comments
Please wait...
Comments are closed.
Commenting on this item is available only to members of the site. You can sign in here or create an account here.
Editors' Picks
is a proud member of the
media network
media network
All contents © Index Newspapers LLC
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
Maybe they know a Civil Rights issue when they see one,
and didn't see one here.
The "Enemies List" is getting longer
and longer;
it seems.
If this had been on the ballot in 2004 the black vote would have been 90% for, not 70%.
But the "no" campaign was abysmally run. Especially in light of what blacks in this country so obviously have to offer in terms of successful civil rights struggle. The white gay organizations only seem to be interested in outreach to communities that are already on their side. Notice what a fantastic job they're doing right now to convince Mormons to change their minds.
And getting shoved out of the big tent?
There is a new Administration coming to town.
Do you know who your friends are?
And aren't?
Give the word...
Nobody is making an "enemies" list - it is called "having a discussion so that this can be addressed next time." And there will be a next time.
Your paranoia has shut off your critical thinking this morning - go grab another coffee will you.
This attitude of the "insignificance" of black voters was a stupid strategic mistake and smacks of racism itself. If No on 8 had reached out, perhaps a winning percentage of the black voters who checked "yes" could have been influenced to change their minds.
>>"The fact that the Black community didn't associate the earlier denial of their civil rights (including the right to freely marry) with Prop 8 was because it wasn't pointed out - not because it isn't valid."<<<
..because obviously Black voters are too STUPID to know what is good for them unless some smart ass queer white boy points it out to them.
thanks Jaxxi
If blacks want to be coddled into being part of a movement, they will never get anywhere. That's not how involvement works and its not how Democracy works.
Inclusion is a beautiful thing. But sitting around and waiting to be included is the antithesis of a movement that requires proactivity.
But wait--didn't you admit on Colbert what Nate Silver pointed out in his insightful deconstruction of the exit polls: that older white voters were MORE statistically significant in the success of Prop 8, than were black voters?
So this looks like while you are admitting the No On Prop 8 folks just might have dropped the ball in outreach to communities of color, you are again turning it into an opportunity to bang the blame-drum about the black vote without ALSO mentioning the more significant numbers from other voting blocks. It might be ironic that an oppressed group voted in favor oppression, but that doesn't change the numbers or their significance in relationship to other voting blocks.
So, yes, California queers were victimized by California voters--not just black Calfornia voters.
Resolved: yes, there's homophobia in the black community--but it wasn't the ONLY reason Prop 8 passed.
And I challenge you again, Dan, to sit down with LOCAL queers of color and have a conversation, get their impressions, and then please publish THAT. Or does it only matter what the Californians think (despite the fact that we're probably going to be facing the same political battle in Washington state sooner than later)?
Would you please examine the exit polls that are being used to lay a significant share of the blame for the passage of prop 8 on African Americans? I don't trust Dan Savage to parse these studies with any kind of objective eye.
I'm a bad, bad man. Please don't read my posts Savage.
>>"The fact that the Black community didn't associate the earlier denial of their civil rights (including the right to freely marry) with Prop 8 was because it wasn't pointed out - not because it isn't valid."<<<
..because obviously Black voters are too STUPID to know what is good for them unless some COMPETENT smart ass queer white boy points it out to them.
thanks Jaxxi
I stand corrected.
http://www.letcaliforniaring.org/site/c.…
Yeah, it still helps to have money to get the message out there on TV and radio. No on Prop 8 had oodles of it; the people in this article didn't. It's still the organizers' fault for being so shortsighted, if not outright racist.
And maybe now we can all agree that racism in the gay community hurts gays more than it hurts black people.
And try reading the article next time. They did participate despite getting the brush off from No on Prop 8 leaders. Since they didn't have a multimillion-dollar war chest, their efforts weren't as effective as they could/should have been.
Dan Savage may not be that guy. It seems that his interest lies in retaliation, not reconciliation. There are many people who think that there's no chance that mormons or religious blacks will ever come around and support equal rights for gays and lesbians; I get the impression that Dan is one of them. Both the pro-Dan and anti-Dan commenters need to accept that and move on. Dan is who he is, he's entitled to his opinions, and his anger is justified, even if it may be somewhat misdirected.
@11 -- I disagree with your comment that "sitting around and waiting to be included is the antithesis of a movement that requires proactivity". The African-America glbt organizations didn't wait around to be included. Leaders of the African-American GLBT organizations showed political maturity and savvy by approaching the No On 8 campaign in an attempt to align their organizations' efforts with the broader campaign, rather than going off on their own direction.
There is a perception among a sizeable number of African-Americans that homosexuality is "a white thing". So it was both foolish and insulting to GLBT leaders and allies in the African-American community to ignore their offer to coordinate with the broader campaign. The fact that the No On 8 leadership ignored these offers to coordinate efforts is a defining example of their ineptitude.
One. Exit. Poll. The same exit poll that called the election for Kerry in 2004 and called the election for Gore in 2000 before the polls were even closed. And had incorrect polling data in 2002 and 2006. It's absolutely worthless.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_El…
It's the same reason that blacks won the civil rights dispute. It was about protecting children! i.e. segregated schools.
When a frame only has one argument in it, it wins by default. So you need to work on being non-threatening, but also not standing for the mental abuse of gay children of bigoted parents, teachers, or churches. But you have to talk about children.
Marriage is not viewed in the same light as the Civil Rights Movement probably because it wasn't about marriage.
Prop 8 supporters did an excellent job of positioning the the issue as marriage and religion being under attack by gays.
Anti-Prop 8 folks heir heads in the clouds with lines like "And straight people-of whatever race,or whatever religion- have a responsiblity not to homophobic"- Uh- yeah that's it.
Ineptness of any campaign leads to its downfall (see McCain/Palin).
You've absoutely hit on an important point.
The decision to hold back on showing Gay families and their children coupled with the bullying and murders of gay kids and the high incidences of suicide amongst them and how all are affected and in turn connected by the laws of a society that views them in a lower position than the rest, did play an important role in our loss outside from the topic of black homophobia.
I agree totally.
But it is not just a matter of "Savage is no MLK- let him do his thing"
The anger is misdirected and the hate is harmful.
It is time for GLBT to quit being it's own worse enemy and Savage getting a new dead horse to beat would be a great start.
Where da white wimminz at?
It should be noted that every AA civil rights issue put to a vote was defeated. AA Civil rights issues NEVER won a popular vote from what I understand (I could be wrong).
What DID happen was the Courts and finally the Government put an end to the discrimination.
Can any help me out with an example of Out Reach on the part of the AA Civil Rights movement to White Americans? It's crucial we learn from the past.
Again, Dan, you're using questionable data to shore up a bigoted position. The 10% number is most likely wrong. It's as questionable as the data that sa… and that 4% were rural. Well, not that questionable. We know is inaccurate. Why, then, do you continue to use data that you know is crap to advance the argument that the success of Proposition 8 comes down to the bigotry within the black community? It doesn't make sense.
Why? Will that put food on their table? Does preachy sanctimony work on you? If I made no effort to persuade you, would you simply agree to abide by a code of morality that benefits me? You'd be an awful chump if you did.
If you make no effort to persuade me that I should adopt your position, don't blame me for your laziness and ineptitude. I think the secret for the no on 8 movement was to make straights empathize with gays. If you empathize with someone, you cannot "other" them:
The no on 8 movement should have shown loving couples living family life, just as straights do. They should have shown Del Martin and Phyllis Lyon getting married mere weeks before Del's death. Maybe have Dan Savage talk about how his late mother viewed his marriage. Something that would allow only those with a heart of stone to deny same-sex marriage to gays.
And hitting the civil rights pedal would only turn off blacks and Latinos. The level of suffering is not comparable. Gays were not segregated at birth. They were not forced to go to inferior schools. They did not have to settle for only menial, low-paid jobs. Far more gays could pass as straight than blacks could pass for white. And so on.
ELIMINATES RIGHT OF SAME-SEX COUPLES TO MARRY
You don't need outreach or a great education to understand what it means. The people that voted for prop 8 did so because they hate gay people. Stop excusing anti-gay bigotry and people's lack of participation. I did my best to help defeat Prop 8 and I don't even live in California because I knew it was a very significant vote for human rights.
ELIMINATES RIGHT OF SAME-SEX COUPLES TO MARRY
Because this right had only been in effect since June, its existence had barely penetrated many voters' minds. The no forces needed to try to persuade these people. Further, the yes forces framed the issue as preserving the sanctity of marriage, and guarding little children from realities they were too young to comprehend. The argument that marriage was not required to be taught in public school was laughable when 97% of California schools teach marriage. And calling people whose votes you hope to get "bigots" is not a good move.
The further irony is that it was Obama himself who has proved how wrong that view is. In his campaign he went after all 50 states, appealed to all voters, regardless of race, relgion, political party, economic status, gender, and sexual orientation. No voters were worth ignoring. The result? He won former red states such as Ohio, Pennsylvania, Colorado, New Mexico, Virginia, and North Carolina. NORTH CAROLINA for crying out loud!
Obviously, it is worth the trouble to reach out to all communities and yes, the No on Prop 8 campaign failed in this. Lesson learned, let's move on. Instead of name calling and pointing fingers, how about we all aknowledge our mistakes and prejudices we need to overcome and concentrate on the future. Start reaching out to everyone from this point forward. And perhaps studying how the Obama campaign was ran and adopting its strategies. Obviously it can work.
It is like saying it is the fault of the AA community that Don Imus and Michael Richards used the racist language they did because anti racist activists did not enough outreach. No one educated them that it is different when white people use these words, then when black people did. Lets not blame white's who are racist for being racist, or men who are sexist for being sexist. Lets blame feminists and people of color who have not done enough to help alter their attitudes. There has not been enough outreach to men and whites.
Wow and calling people whose vote you hope to get bloodsuckers, white devils, praising Hitler, and committing race based hate crimes is not a is not a good move. Yet "civil rights" leaders have done it. I assume you excuse anti-black racism by jews, whites, asians, white women, and gays because some black people have called them names a lot worse then "bigots", right?
How is this stupid comment "wise". I'm both gay and black and I know damn well that in most countries with majority black populations not only would I be segregated but sent to jail for being gay. I could hardly "pass" for straight anywhere, does that exclude me from your stupid statement? I swear at first I was a little bit apprehensive of all the comments being made about blacks in some blogs even though I have been on the receiving end of the bigoted attitudes of my own but now all this denial and pandering to people who have persecuted us from black queers like me who should know otherwise is making me sick to my stomach.
I'm so over you at this point that I've even stop reading your column or listening to your blog. You are the gay Rush Limbaugh and he is gay so that makes you the out of the closet Rush Limbaugh. You pander to the racism in the gay community which is dominated by gay white males.
I'm beginning to think that the real issue for gay white males is that you are ticked off your white privilege has been taken away because you are gay, not that you really care about equality or civil rights for all exploited groups like women, minorities and the disabled. I bet you hate immigrants also.
The worse part of what you are doing Dan is making me rethink my willingness to speak out in my community to speak out in support of gay rights. I'm not sure why I should vocally support people who openly despise and scapegoat my community.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ8jeJwrb… just play right into the wingnuts hands.
Sure. Just like if McCain got elected, Obama's failure would be purely due to white and Hispanic racism. But guess what: Obama put in the work to get the votes from enough people to win. So he doesn't have to make excuses for his loss.
The gay community has lost the respect and good will it used to have among many democrats in the US.
EXACTLY
Go DAN! You are just what the KKK needs to energize the party!
Here's what I want to know: if outreach can change minds, IS IT WORTH IT? In other words, if the AA vote was too small to pass Prop 8, will it be too small to overturn it? Would outreach have made a difference?
The relevance of the AA vote is critical to establish, because even gay racists are much more likely to perform outreach if they think it's in their own interests to do so. My guess is that "winning" is a better motivator than "enlightening," but we'll see.
Only when we stop putting people in boxes like "white/black/gay/straight" will we be able to have an honest dialogue about human fears and insecurities.
Those fears and insecurities lie at the heart of this and almost every other issue that fragments our society and creates divisions between us. Those fears and insecurities keep us from treating each other with respect.
As long as we keep thinking in terms of "us" and "them", we will always find someone else to blame, so can feel better about ourselves and our own shortcomings. When we finally stop the "blame game", then we might be able to see a change in the status quo.
What's it gonna be?
all of "-isms" are related and they are all wrong!!!
see more on gay racism and black gaybashers
at
OUTLOOK
http://aliciabanks.blogspot.com/
peace
ab
Savage keeps beating this dead black horse because he's mortified. He started off with a racist tantrum and can't quite figure out how to work his way back from it without losing face as it turns out that black's did not vote in significantly greater numbers for prop 8 than other groups and as more meaningful assessments of the yes on 8 vote in the Black community becomes available.
Journalism (or blogging) is the first draft of history and Dan turned in a really shitty piece of homework.
The no on 8 campaign reflected the smug self satisfaction of the people running it. It wasn't just black glbt leadership that was ignored, they ignored the fucking Democratic Party hierarchy in the state of California.
Yes indeedy, I thought Feinstein got into the race at the last minute because she was doing her usual which way is the wind blowing number. But apparently she, liberal congresswoman Barbara Lee (black) Boxer and a bunch of others were chomping at the bit to get involved and cut commercials, but no one asked for their help until the campaign was circling the drain!
A might over the top, but yes, generally speaking that is the suspicion among many (not all) black people including gay black people. Which is not to excuse -- drum roll, parting clouds-- "BLACK HOMOPHOBIA"
"...Johnson is a bit off on her statements about the ad campaign. First off, it's "Let California Ring," not Let Freedom Ring. And the print ads they put together were not about mixed race couples. They were about Asian couples, Latino couples, African American couples, and their families--and pastors, and community leaders--rallying around the unions...."
The journalist who quoted her got it wrong. I personally noted several mispellings throught the entire interview. In addition, United Lesbians of African Heritage (ULOAH) was approached and requested to provide photos and stories of loving BLACK same-sex couples. Once produced, the request changed to only desiring (and ONLY using) mixed-race (white/black) couples. It's unforunate, but throughtout the ENTIRE campaign, white LGBT images were used 95% of time -- this reality coming from a community that claims to be diverse and sensitive to POC.
I find it concerning that the only 2 organizations in Los Angeles that provide services for Black gays and lesbians have had somewhat of the same experiences with the No of Prop 8 Campaign.
Even more concerning is that neither one of these organizations where used to address the boarder black communities in the fashion that they knew would work! And heres one for you: There were NO black LGBT organization used to go directly into the black communities in Los Angeles to educate black people on Prop 8. Not one was used by the campaign.
Do the math and tell me why the campaign failed in the black community