What, he says I'll lose my air miles when I go to Heaven?

But ... I was going to use those!
But Jerimiah Wright would have been a great choice right Erica?

I thought you only posted about how cars were destroying everything you hold dear.
What's Warren's position on salting the roads?
What? A woman can divorce her husband if he cheats on her, but not if he is physically abusive? How does that even remotely make any sense?

And, "short-term pain'? As if a man beating his wife is something to endure temporarily because certainly he will one day stop hitting me? That's a pretty fucking dangerous and irresponsible thing to advocate.
For 2009, Here's the BIG inside scoop. No RIck Warren or Inauguration: Please dont ignore this. Tonight,1/209 at 9 pm Eastern Time, Ed Hale of Plains Radio will reveil online a CERTIFIED copy of Obamas father's divorce decree in Hawaii.
It says son Barack Jr. was born in KENYA. This is real and not a hoax. It proves Obama Jr. WASNT born in the USA, but in Kenya.


That kind of thinking is a excellent example of circular logic. "Why would God send Jesus to die if there were some other way of salvation?" Um, maybe God didn't? Maybe the Romans killed Jesus because he really pissed off the Roman and Jewish leaders.

I think the idea is that you're supposed to endure pain in this life (in the "short term"), so you'll be saved in the next.

I don't get why it's such a revelation that Warren believes that unbelievers will go to hell. Hello? That's what most of those psychos believe.
there is no sin you can commit that will cause you to not go to heaven if you've truly had an experience with Jesus Christ

Uhhh, so do I have to like, go all the way with him? Is second base ok?
Also, FU Rick Warren. Please go and die in a fire. It's only short term pain, and really purification by fire is the only way you'll get all your "rewards".

Erica, you are quite obsessed with this big ol' hunk of God-fearing fire-and-brimstone-spewing man....
watch yourself, honey.

We'd rather not moderate your comments, but off-topic, gratuitously inflammatory, threatening, or otherwise inappropriate remarks may be removed, and repeat offenders may be banned from commenting. We never censor comments based on ideology. Thanks to all who add to the conversation on Slog.


We'd rather not moderate your comments, but off-topic, gratuitously inflammatory, threatening, or otherwise inappropriate remarks may be removed, and repeat offenders may be banned from commenting. We never censor comments based on ideology. Thanks to all who add to the conversation on Slog.

Gary - Is that kind of like the secret Michelle Obama tape that African Press International has been claiming they're going to release "any day now" for months and months?
@7. That's possible... I read it in context with the next bit about miserable marriages, when he talks about the short-term pain (miserable marriage) vs. the long-term pain (divorce) [a side note here, I actually don't this this is a terrible viewpoint - I don't agree with the conclusion (don't get divorced), but the view that there is also pain with divorce is not entirely illogical] .

But, of course, the crazier view that "you must endure this abuse to get into heaven" is also a possibility coming from the religious nutjobs.
Seriously. Erica, thanks for reporting on this, but none of this should come as a surprise. Warren is a very typical Evangelical, and understanding them a little better - getting past the initial shock at how atrocious their actual beliefs really are, and maybe starting to understand their roots in the primal immature subconscious of a neglected heartland psyche - might help us better expose their weaknesses and undermine their strategies of division; might help us, in fact, divide them against one another, so they'll get off our back for a change. Might be a good use of Obama's time, even.
every time i see one of these posts i am a little surprised. at two things:

1. that you all didn't know these are the things that average evangelicals "believe".
(they don't necessarily adhere to these beliefs however.)

2. that you seem to have no tolerance for such a great majority.
(i'm not making that tired, "tolerate the intolerant" argument. what i'm getting at here is that there isn't an understanding of the values that are probably the majority in this country. we have to understand if we are to correct the faults, and live with the differences. it's not odd to have someone who believes these things find a position of power because it's quite likely that the majority of people believe these things.)
If I have an "experience" with Jesus, does that make me gay and an adulterer?

Well, there goes tonight's smack down.

If it weren't for this fabulous, new toaster, I'd kill myself.
Wait a minute...

there is no sin you can commit that will cause you to not go to heaven if you've truly had an experience with Jesus Christ... homosexuality is a Dangerous Sin. But gay Christians can still go to heaven? Or is homosexuality more dangerous then suicide...?

@16 - I buy that argument for things like "people of other religions cannot go to heaven", which is a pretty straightforward and very common belief. But, even I, who is pretty fascinated by all things religious, am shocked sometimes when I hear interpretations like "women who are abused cannot get divorced".

Not all Christians, or even all Evangelicals, would interpret and apply the Bible in that way.
As a west coast Protestant, I find this theology virtually unrecognizable.
We never censor comments based on ideology.
@18 evangelicals, by and large, believe that gay christians can and will go to heaven... they'll just feel horrendously for eternity because of their sinful lifestyle on Earth.

The next logical question, then, is why try to force people to change here on Earth? The usual answer is because Christ said "go and sin no more" not "go and keep on doing what you're doing."

22 years and counting of being a Preacher's Son comes in handy on occasion... though, it doesn't so much when sucking cock. *shrug*
In the two quotations that are called out as applying only to women, there's nothing specific to women that warrants calling them out as such.

(Certainly Rick Warren doesn't deserve defending, but careful reading and argumentation do.)
julie @19. true, not all would apply it that way.

but i was taught that growing up. seriously. i went to the largest church in my town (in a seattle suburb, no less). not that i want to dwell on that too much, but you were taught to get out of the house, but not divorce. the church would help support people in this situation, but not advocate for divorce unless certain criteria was met.

please note, i'm not saying i agree with this them! just reporting on the experience.

it's not as bad as it sounds -- you can leave them, not live with them, not talk to them, or even get a restraining order, you just cannot initiate the divorce. that's bad, but not as bad as assuming the policy means that you must still live with them as they are beating you. it's also bad, because in some cases it doesn't support the victim enough, and it downplays the seriousness of the offense. i've never hit a significant other, nor would i tolerate being hit. it also applies to men and women, for whatever that is worth.

but in many other cases, people would get divorced for all sorts of reasons. so, for the one woman i knew who hadn't spoken to her "husband" in over a year, we also had a worship pastor's wife run away with a youth pastor, and a divorce because they didn't get along, and another divorce because the man threatened to hit his wife.

Newsflash: Rick Warren is a bad man with stupid, mean ideas. (There just might be a few folks who don't know that yet whom you have now informed.)

Newsflash: the Fundamentalist Xtian Church is racist, sexist, homophobic, and intolerant. (Duh.)

Now should we continue to flash this news as loudly and brightly as possible as often as possible, giving this man a spotlight he doesn't deserve?

By all means, let's continue our political O.C.D. about this asshole, and watch the Saddleback coffers swell with fundraising profits and Rick Warren's stature to National Religious Conservative Leader continue to rise...
Heaven, rewards???? I am so tired of people in power believing in fantasy.
When your dead you are dead. There is no fun better life in heaven. That is just shitting on the reality of life here on Earth, the only one life you will ever get and should be making the best of.
There is no heaven where some people have more "rewards" than others because they are better. There are no virgins for men, no afterlife with everything you ever wanted that you never got while you were alive. You do not get to see your loved ones again or have it perfect where they are not abusive but wonderful like in a movie.
So make it worthwhile now while you are live and stop thinking you are going to some place better when you die.
Dead is dead.
Preacher's Boy @22...

You really should get back to church more often because your memory of evangelical doctrine has seriously failed you.

Dude, call your dad, or just give a shout out to Big Papa. You've forgotten whole chapters and verses of the indoctrination.

Evangelicals with few and rare exceptions believe that homosexuality is an abomination before Almighty God (queue the thunder) and that nothing short of full repentance, which includes conversion to heterosexuality, will save the Mo's from eternal damnation. takes a PK to know another PK's bullshite.

Remember, Jesus died for your Personal Greed!


oh, wait, didn't he?
Here's Rick Warren on how he will affect policy in the Obama administration:
i know this keeps coming up ... but how do you want obama to reach out to the right wing?

these are the beliefs of the right wing. they are wrong -- but they vary. some are not as bad as you think, others are as bad, or are worse. warren is one person of many playing a completely ceremonial role. but he thinks other religions are wrong! uh, that's a surprise? who's the right wing preacher you are going to find who doesn't believe that?
B @26...

Prove it.

In all honesty we do not know.

In the amazing dearth of human knowledge a profession of ignorance more often serves as the only universal truth, than not.
There was an article in the NYT about a recent pool in which a majority of American Christians (not just Americans) believe you get to heaven based on good works not religion and this includes non-believers.
Ignorance as universal truth? Will you survive a fall from the Aurora Bridge? PROVE IT!
I had no idea there was a Heaven and a Heaven Lite. I thought it was kind Salvation or Damnation since the Pope shut down Limbo and Purgatory.
Religion is dangerous. Where else can you spew this type non-sense and be taken serious?


You first, sweetie, as a testament of your faith in your chosen dogma, but remember that if you fail, Pastor Ricky says that you're probably going to lose a few door prizes at the pearly gates.

For your enlightenment...a physics lesson about how little we know even about what we know...

Alcides Moreno was hurtling downward at a speed up to 124 mph, clinging to a 1,250-pound scaffold that acted like a surfboard in the sky.

Those grappling with why he miraculously survived his plunge from the roof of a 47-story high-rise say the aluminum platform added air resistance that slowed his descent - and blunted the tremendous force of hitting the concrete pavement in an alley below.

Read on...…



Can you tell the average politician or pastor apart? I guess it depends on how far they're standing from the spotlight.

In 1858, Abraham Lincoln wrote, "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races-that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people..."

Did he mean it, or was he trying to win an election and prevent civil war by espousing a centrist view that he did not -- later evidence would suggest -- actually hold? If the Civil War had not occurred, and Lincoln had not been freed to express his more radical opinions in opposition to treasonous rebels, would we ever know for sure whether his statements about Black people were real, or just political rhetoric?

The pro-labor, pro-socialized medicine, pro-domestic spending rural voters that used to be the base of the Democratic Party are also, by and large, evangelical Christians.

Obama may still turn out to be a terrible president, but reaching out to those evangelical Christians though a very public gesture that has no meaningful policy implications -- and therefore costs him nothing, in terms of legislative horse-trading -- is a smart move. Liberals who are too near-sighted to appreciate the political wisdom of Obama's alliances will either succeed in returning the Democratic Party to political irrelevance, or they'll be left behind when the Dems move into a position of real power over the next 10 years.

Ah well. Nothing to do with me, I suppose.
@30 - he already did reach out - he has two Republicans in the cabinet.

Your time is done - go forth and wander in the wilderness for the next forty years and we'll call you then.
Religion is poison. My respect for Obama is down a notch due to his choice to continually stand by this guy, but I hold out hope that come Jan 21st, he severs and never speaks of Warren again, for good or ill.
Warren sucks but he has no power. Has a Stranger writer ever posted anything about our Republican Sec. of Defense (meet the old boss...) or our Republican Sec. of Transportation (zero transportation experience, little commitment to mass transit)?
What is interesting to me about reading Warren's comments is that there is so much filler. I can picture the congregation members sitting there thinking that all he's talking about is love and forgiveness, but only when we are able to slow him down and parse the words does it become clear.

That's scary.
what? my time is done? what are you talking about? we've met, will, do you remember? i think you have me confused with someone else.

if he made two appointments, get mad at those. what you are suggesting @39 is silly... to be upset by a ceremonial position and not actual appointments. this is a meaningful figure to evangelicals playing (to atheists) a largely meaningless role. that cannot be said about the other appointments.

i'm more with judah @38.

I understand that Warren will have no impact on policy, that Obama is just reaching out to the religious right, that it's just a symbolic hand across the aisle... but, I still was disappointed by the choice.

I think there are any number of Christian pastors that he could have chosen that would have symbolized something different -- social justice in the Sojourners-type model, for example.
@44 - You have your social-justice pastor, in the benediction: Rev. Joe Lowery is a black civil rights legend. You have nothing to fear or despair from Rev. Warren. In fact, I think picking him is exactly the right choice, even though I disagree with him on more than I don't.

I know what you mean. Still, if Obama is reaching out to people who think differently than me, he's going to have to choose someone I don't agree with. That's just the way it goes.

Perhaps there was a better choice that would still meet all the qualifications. I just have a hard time seeing who that would be, and do not know if there is a figurehead of the Sojourners who would qualify.

maybe that Jim Wallis would be a possible choice -- don't know enough about him. warren i've heard of. too bad. i read his wiki and he seems better, but i don't know. i do see that Wallis' wife is a rev, though, which might be an issue with the fundies.

still, perhaps a better compromise. i just though obama was throwing them a bone, so to speak...
Religion is such a waste of time and a waste of one's life. Anything is more enjoyable than praying all day and trying to decipher some 2000 year old book.
He's an idiot. And even if I believed in his magic Jesus and his imaginary heaven, which by the way, I did when I was a naive child, I would not want to go there if assholes like him would be there. And don't forget, this clown says these things to GET PEOPLE'S MONEY! Now that's something I have no doubt he worships!
The key issue here is that the Demoncratic leadership—Harry, Nancy and now Obama et al—have officially dumped progressives, gays and liberals from the party.

The whole Rick Warren flap is really a proxy battle over our total elimination from the party.

From his cabinet appointments on down to the issues (failed wars, FISA/domestic spying/elimination of civil liberties, healthcare reform, failed education system, failed economy, the environment, and on and on) Obama is showing that he’s going to continue business as usual by reaching out to a right-wing “center” that’s the unspoken future of the Demoncratic Party. This is why Demoncrats and their various enablers cheer when they infuriate their so-called base in ways Republicans would never dream of.

Every Bush disaster of the last two years has been aided and abetted by the Demoncrats, whose goals and methods are basically the same and certainly in agreement.
No, Andrew, we're the party of the Big House.

I think you have us confused with the Party of the Really Really Small And Old White Tent.
i just sat through church service last week. i'ts beyond me how people manage to be inspired by the platitudinous, cliched drivel that comprises the language they used. it truly baffles me. now, i can despise much of popular fiction, movies, etc.--but at least i understand the appeal there.
@ Will in Seattle,

What is your view based on exactly? If you look at the last two years--when the Demoncrats had a clear mandate to change course on national emergencies like the wars and the economy--each time they went against public opinion and their own supporters and sided with Preznit Bush and the Retardicans. They also refuse to uphold the rule of law.

Even Obama has already discarded positions taken during the primary--such as pro-public campaign finance and anti-telecom immunity--when they became inconvenient to the current right-wing orthodoxy.

This isn't about inclusitivity, this is about an unspoken, yet clear position staked out by nasty DLC douchebags like Rahm Emmanuel that progressives, gays and liberals--even civil libertarians--are no longer welcome. And they've made this clear in the most unquestionable terms. Their voting records speak for themselves.

How else can you explain their behavior. And I'm sorry, but when Dick Cheney exclaimed that he's thrilled with Obama's cabinet, that's a sure omen that we are f-u-c-k-e-d.
And I'd love to celebrate the demise of the Republican Party, but the fact is that we live in a two party system, and they're gonna keep stoking fear, anger, racism, and homophobia until they assume power again.

When and what are the Demoncrats gonna change?
Guess just who got shoved out of the 'Big Tent'?
Gays are welcome to donate to Obama.
But his core supporters voted you girls off the island in Prop 8 land.
Welcome to the New World Order.
We didn't get shut out of the tent, 55. But if we keep behaving in such undisciplined, irresponsible ways we sure might get shown the door.

What "we" were asked to do is let Rick Warren, fetid asshole that he might be, in to said tent for a few minutes to say grace. Warren's not being asked to stay (he's not being appointed to a damned position). But I'd sure like to make sure we're still "on the inside" after the smoke clears.

And rather picking our battles wisely and focusing our energy on holding Obama's feet to the fire about what actually affects government AND the quality of LGBT folks' lives (appointments, policy, legislation, the battles to come over ENDA, DADT, DOMA, etc), many folks CHOSING TO MARCH OUT of that tent and decrying anyone has the political sophistication to separate symbolic (and politically savvy) bipartisanship from actual political threat. Some are calling for noisy demonstrations DURING Warren's silly little prayer--a Religious Right-fundraiser's wet dream come true.

Ask folks if they remember Donnie McClurkin, and most will say, "Who's Donnie McClurkin?" It would have been nice if by Presidents' Day in February people would be saying "Who's Rick Warren?" but no, these supposed enemies of his homophobia keep handing him the mike and focusing the spotlight on him. Nice work--expect a gift basket from Karl Rove or the Saddleback Church.
"If we really understood God and how holy he is and how sinful we are.... we would realize it 's not a matter of comparing ourselves of, who gets in and who doesn't?"

Thank you Jesus for realizing how sinful Rick is. So, he doesn't get in then, right?
you are brave
and opptomistic!
I salute you- my friend.
You are also, alas;
You have been booted from the tent.
What did Obama promise Gays during the campaign?
What is his position on Gay Marriage?
You were promised nothing and will get LESS.
Obama had countless possibilities for the invocation;
it could have been nuanced a dozen ways.
Warren was a deliberate calculated choice.
Warren sends a clear message:
to black voters,
to the right,
to Gays.
Everyone else got their message
loud and clear.
Did you?
My dear Andy,
my poor, dear, naive, believing Andy.
You are breaking my heart!
Someone offers gay folks way WAY more than ANYONE has ever offered us before on a federal level, and everyone gets pissy because he invited someone they didn't like to a cocktail party?

So those of you who are attending the Inauguration and disapprove of Rick Warren's participation in it:

When Warren delivers his invocation (probably taking no more than two minutes), turn about and face the phallic Washington Monument for the time it takes him to mouth heart-warming, fallacious platitudes 'bout how God's in his heav'n, all's right with the world and all His children got Jeebus....

If this happens, I hope The Stranger gets credit for fomenting this civil albeit well-considered discourtesy...
In the section about divorce and abuse Mr. Warren apparently doesn't consider Isiah 50:1 and Jeremiah 3:8. In both God gives Israel her certificate of divorce. In all my years of working in DV, it seems people get hung up on Malachi 2:16, because God says he hates divorce. Hateing divorce doesn't mean God forbids it, and it doesn't mean God hates people who get divorced. If you're in an abusive relationship, get help and get out. You can't save a marriage when one partner refuses to see he/she has a problem.

The unforgivable sin is blaspheme against the Holy Spirit, Mark 3:29, and Luke 12:10.

People should read the Bible themselves. History shows the missuse of scripture as a reason to justify cruelty and mistreatment. You have to keep scripture in context or it looses its purpose. Personaly, I think it is being missused in regard to God's feelings about our sexuality. I think it is fearfull humans who believe homosexuality to be a sin, because they allow others to fill their minds with agenda selected scripture. I think God gives us our sexuality, and he is pleased with it. Thus, I think Warren is wrong, homosexuality is not a sin. He just wants to believe it is, because to consider it isn't would be a slap to his pride. Plus, going against the grain would have negative ramifications to his aspirations.

I had NO IDEA that you could kill yourself and STILL GO TO HEAVEN, and long as you were saved by Jeez beforehand.

Do you know what this means?

This means that Rick Warren can KILL HIMSELF BEFORE INAUGURATION DAY with no negative consequences for his soul!

Why does he go on? I've heard how he struggles with Internet pornography.

But, latest word was that he had CONQUERED his disgusting habit through the aid of, not Jesus, but his wife and her initiative in putting PORN BLOCKERS on their computer.

(Even though that set him right with Christ, for now at least, he should still give her a few floggings with the rod just to teach her that the HUSBAND IS BOSS!)

Anyway, now that he is off the electro-smut due to his wife's un-ladylike decisivenesss, he should TOTALLY KILL HIMSELF NOW before he relapses into pornographic sin again...he is the husband, afterall. If he tells his wife to take the smut blockers off, she has to take them off or get a lashing!
Yawp @27,

Sorry I didn't get to reply to this yesterday, busy afternoon...

Anyhoo, I have had this discussion out with my dad and multiple other pastors. We start in a round about way, of course, much like the poster I replied to did. "Is there any sin that will keep a Christian out of Heaven?"

Their answer, almost every single time, is "No, except to renounce God, the Spirit, Jesus, and his salvation." At which point, I follow it up with questions about suicide, murder, etc. All met with "No, if that person had a sincere connection with Christ, they will be in Heaven." That leads to questions about if a person continually sins, say they're a habitual liar, but had a sincere conversion years ago... despite their continued sinning, will they be in Heaven? The answer is always "yes, if they really did convert they will be in Heaven."

That's when I hit them with the gay Christian. Most of the pastors I've spoken to immediately say that Homosexuality is a sin and that lifestyle will only lead a person to hell. I ask what if that person had a sincere connection with Christ? At this point, most of the pastors I've spoken with have said they doubt someone living in a continual sexual sin could have had a sincere connection... I press and say hypothetically, if they did, would they be in Heaven when they died?

After laying all that groundwork with the rest of the discussion, they can't say "no, they'll be in hell" so they again say they don't think that it would ever happen, but if a gay person did sincerely convert they would be in Heaven after they died, whether or not they continued to practice homosexuality.

At that point, they usually launch into a bit about how true conversion, true connections with Christ, always yield a desire to be a better person, to stop sinning and to reach out to God... so, a gay person who had a true conversion wouldn't want to keep being gay. Here, the pastors and I begin debating whether or not homosexuality is a sin, if it is a sin how bad a sin it is, and whether or not Christians have interpreted those scriptures correctly.

So, in short, what I said wasn't bullshite. It was a short answer to the question. Yes, evangelicals say that sincere gay christians will be in heaven. They doubt such gay christians exist, but if they do, they'll be there, per every evangelical pastor I've ever sat down with.
Rick Warren is a heretic. Look at that first sermon! Christianity has long accepted that sincere people of different religions can go to heaven, so long as they are sincere and do not reject spiritual truth when they receive it. Even C.S. Lewis believed that!! This is a long-standing theological stand called "soteriological inclusivism." St. Paul explicitly approves of this, and Rick Warren does not? Heretic.
You know Yawp, after re-reading my first post, I didn't say enough and what I wrote wasn't what I meant. Sorry for that.
I don't much care for Warren's mistaken theology. It's just hard for me, and possibly others in my age group,…">to become indignant about him. It's not so much a boast as a confession. I wonder how many share my attitude.
Apparently, you're supposed to stay in an abusive marriage even if your husband is beating your kids. Telling women to stick it out and try to fix things is one thing (even though I personally think that after a certain point it's a load of crap--and what about the husband's responsibility, btw?) But what if the abusive behavior is hurting children? Even if the children are not directly physically harmed, they are learning dangerous behavior patterns, both to perpetrate and endure. And what the fuck is with short term pain in a marriage but long term pain in divorce? Yes, divorce sucks and is messy and painful, but at least you have the chance to move on and salvage your life and heal. An abusive marriage you can't escape has no end in sight.

And fewer rewards for people who kill themselves? That's antithetical to the entire notion of grace.
@63 aka Pastor's Son,

Thanks so much for your comment. I love your heart for questioning.

I wonder where grace is in their discussions, sincerely wanting to be better doesn't mean we live a sinless life. We are forever struggling in sanctification. At least thats what the Bible says in 1 John 1:8, not to mention Romans chapters 7 and 8, and of course Matthew chapter 5. We don't have to be perfect, because God is perfect, God values the sincerity of our heart towards him (Micah 6:8, Matthew 19: 16-19, Mark 12:29-31, Luke 10:27, and John 13:34).

I think the real issue is the Christian community (as a whole) can not fathom that sexual orientation is not a preference choice. Even when modern medical science supports the truth that orientation is involuntary. Our sexual orientation is what we are given, a long with our heigth and eye color. We have no control, can any of us actually say we remember making the choice? I doubt it, that's why ex-gay therapy, and prayer interventions do not work. We can't fight who God made us to be. And it goes against his very nature to hate what he forms (Psalm 139, John 3:16-21).

Bless you.
don't be a pig;
leave some of the koolaid for everyone else.

Nope, I can't see your eyes rolling, but I'll be sure to save you some koolaid. In fact you can have my share, I can't stand the crap.
@69 - dude, get off it. Kim is on your side. It makes no sense to antagonize Christians who are actually defending you.
Calling this guy a "pastor" is like calling someone with a first aid certificate a "brain surgeon". He is the theological rendition of the old adage, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing." The fact that Mr Obama is pandering to such ignorance leaves me breathless and somewhat anxious over the next four years in Washington.
@ 71, aka DavidG,

Thank you. I am on his side.


I intended my message 68 for Pastor's Kid at 63. We both seem driven to engage evangelical Christians on their theology. Sorry if it was to sickly sweet, or if you thought I was kissing his ass. It wasn't my intention. It's a biblical thing to use scripture when engaging with Christians.


PS I don't think I fully understand hogging all the koolaid. Is that some reference to Jim Jones?
Thanks Kim,

I've read most of those scriptures, but not looked at them in this light. There's my homework for tonight then. :)

After years of debating back and forth with my parents, I got them to admit that if a sincere gay christian wanted to attend their church with his partner, they would let them attend and be members. Mom and Dad's only caveat was that if the gay couple "became a stumbling block" for someone else in the church, the gay couple would be asked to leave.

Not fair, no, but it's miles ahead of where many other evangelicals are at.
yes, good old Jim

"Even when modern medical science supports the truth that orientation is involuntary. Our sexual orientation is what we are given, a long with our heigth and eye color. We have no control, can any of us actually say we remember making the choice? I doubt it, that's why ex-gay therapy, and prayer interventions do not work. We can't fight who God made us to be."

There is so much hooey packed in here one doesn't know where to begin:

"modern medical science" supports nothing of the kind- the best you will find are tainted studies by biased 'researchers' out to support their agenda.

God makes people Gay? please, don't even go there.

ex-gay therapy etc- Is Anne Heche gay? Did God forget to tell her what she was? Could God not make up his mind when he made people 'bi'? What a joker he must be!
In fact people choose to or not to engage in homosexual behavior at will.

God gives us free agency to choose what we will do and will be.
Take responsibility for the life he gives you.

You have drunk deeply from the orthodox homosexual koolaid. 'Don't think or question for yourself-- after all- "God made me this way!"'
Throw in a few mangled scriptural references and you've invented your own Gay Religion.

Make a calf of gold and bow to it? Never!
Make a religion of the philosophy of homosexual apologist, throw in a few scriptures and worship it?

Either way you're worshipping something you made.
"You have drunk deeply from the orthodox homosexual koolaid."

Sounds delicious! Is the koolaid itself the flavor of the orthodox homosexuals, or is it regular, say, grape koolaid that is served by the homosexuals?

These are important questions.
Well Please,

Lets say we agree to disagree. You're welcome to your opinion, it's a free country.

In the future you may not want to make presumptions about a person, without knowing them.

Best wishes.
Everyone should suffer. Women should stay with their physically abusive husbands. Gay people should force themselves to either marry someone of the opposite sex, and live a life of passionless, celibate, loneliness. People of any other religion should switch to the "one true religion", just on the basis of some unproven mystical beliefs that there is a reward in the end.
76: Real orthodox gay people don't drink Kool-Aid. All natural fresh juice? Sure. Single malt scotch older than half the people in the room? Oh yes. But Kool-Aid? Never!

And Anne Heche is what is called bisexual. That is, she appears to be attracted to both men and women. I know that's a bit advanced for you to grasp, but please at least pretend to be a resident of the 21st century.

BTB, I generally suspect the people who so loudly proclaim homosexuality to be a 'choice' of being closeted bisexual folk. Because that really is the only charitable interpretation of their raving.
So "bi" is another term for
'doing whatever you choose to do'?
I see.
It never ceases to amaze me that people who can hold sensible conversations about virtually anything still believe this rubbish without any foundation. From the Pope right down. Not one of them has the nerve to stand back for a moment and say hold on - this is a load of rubbish. I have made a mistake. Can you imagine the Pope deciding he lost his faith - wouldn't that be just great.
So if a woman commits adultry does the husband have the right stone her to death?

There is always a way

If he is abusing her she can hire a hooker to cheat with him. Think about it... if a man is beating his wife, what are the odds he is cheating as well?
I've never read a bigger colllection of hackneyed, media-soaked, thoughtless, intolerant liberal soundbites in my life. People who understand and agree that homosexuality is condemned as a sin (by all 3 Abrahamic faiths by the way - not just biblical christians) are homophobes?! Give me a break! That line is not only clinically baseless and irrational, but SO adolescent, so pathetic, so stupidly cliche. Do you REALLY believe that someone who rejects the validity of a particular position or viewpoint does so from unconscious fear? (If so, this means you're grasp of psychology is informed primarily by hollywood and you have never actually tried thinking about this) Do you really believe just because the significant majority of Americans believe homosexuality is morally unacceptable that means that most of those people hate homosexuals? (Saying 'yes' here means you're simply an idiot) And if so, does that mean all you ridiculously intolerant and unbelievably ignorant Christian bashers are Christophobes?

And by the way, why is it OK to be intolerant of Christian values but not of homosexual values? Why must Christians give up their truth just because 5-7% of the population want to shout them down? (yes - that's the correct number -affirmed by virtualy every secular study but Kinsey's who used prisoners to get to his 10% number)

If you're going to take time to post here, try coming up with a couple of thoughts that aren't just a display of your ignorance or a regurgitation of baseless comments and tired old slogans you heard someone else say.
The church and the gay (LGBT) community have always had two DIFFERENT interpretations of the word "homosexual". The LGBT community would interpret a homosexual to be anyone who has erotic EMOTIONS towards the same sex. The church interprets homosexuality (and sin) as homosexual ACTIONS towards the same sex. There is a difference between emotions and actions. Thus, the "choice" described by the church, and the doctrine that one should not act on one's emotions, no matter the strength of them. Far easier said than done, of course. Then we have the religious ultra conservatives that want to make church doctrine into law, trampling on freedom of religion since everybody wants their own religion made law, and everybody else's ignored. Fornication is not generally against the law, so neither should homosexuality be against the law. However, both fornication and homosexuality are currently, and understandably condemned by the church, since both are condemned in the Bible. However, I think the church should have more compassion for those who are already in homosexual relationships who want to reconcile those relationships by getting "married". A relationship is not an easy thing to just throw aside. Finally, the church needs to have more compassion and forgiveness for divorcees - if a man is hitting a woman, he isn't going to stop until she ends up in the hospital or worse. Should a couple be forced to stay married until she dies from the abuse? I say NO. Abuse is a form of abandonment.
I'm sorry, is anybody suprised or angered by this man's comments? He is a Christian, and so this is really what you should expect. As far as I can see he isn't saying that's against Scripture, and all he's saying is backed up by it. People need to choose whether they're going to follow a religion and all the crazy stupid rubbish that goes with it, or accept that there is no God. I like that there are people like this. It exposes the hypocrisy and insanity that is religion.
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