Did you enable black men coming out by sleeping with them Dan? How many blacks have you slept with?

Idiot for Mayor 2009!!

For having such a large black pop, I sure don't see a lot of black men at the bars and clubs I go to. My bf says they go to different clubs (i.e. the fireplace), but I really think that they aren't out like the white gays from suburbia who move to DC.

I have trouble making as strong a connection between being able to come out and having safe sex as you seem to. You can still wear a condom when you're in the closet (I always did).

my understanding was always that the top causes of the spread of AIDS in the black community are 1) prison sex, and 2) heterosexual sex following prison sex. that's situational homosexuality, and pretty different from what you're talking about. (not that i don't agree with your point, because i do, but still)

Yes there should be a discussion about homophobia in the African American church and community. That said there should also be a discussion about ageism among the writers at The Stranger.

It's the whole "Down Low" thing- a black man can rationalize his homosexual behavior if he doesn't use condoms, apparently because condom use is akin to acknowledging you're really gay.

I didn't say it made much sense, but that's the reality.

why is everyone so horrified by the idea that one minority could discriminate against another? it happens over and over throughout history.

These posts really bring out the best in commenters, don't they? Anyway, I'm guessing that the silent majority of readers are with you on this one.

@1 - Um, what?

Dan, you're right. Keep calling attention to a cultural difference between African American and White culture that most people gloss over - strong adherence to gender "norms" - but I just don't know that people on the outside of that culture will be heard and make an impact on that culture. The best thing that we can do is try to make everyone aware of the dangers of living in the closet, on the DL, whatever you call it...

Dan, you will never be able to talk about this topic. It's not to do with you being white and gay, but shooting down your own credibility back in November. You flew off the handle with your comments before all the data was in. Yes, you were proven right in some aspect but you were wrong on some points. And your posts the first few days after the election smacked of emotion not the expected objectivity of someone who calls himself an editor. Every time you revisit this topic it seems to me that you are bring it back up not so much for serious discussion but being angry that people were upset with you.

As I black woman I agree there is a big problem with homophobia in the black community. But I don't think it's that seriously out of proportion with any other community. Last time I check it just wasn't black people killing people because they are gay. That's doesn't make make the problem any better but let's be real. My gay friends won't visit neighborhoods and whole cities due to the treatment they have received -those places have a largely white population.

Homophobia in [poor] black communities has far more serious consequences when you factor in a lack of sexual health education. I try to do my part by volunteering to teach classes in rec centers and schools but I am only one person.

There is enough blame to go around and nothing has come of it. Let's stop the blame and think of ways to defeat this problem in all communities.

You really didn't have to go there. You could have left Prop 8 out of this, and this would have been a perfectly worthwhile post.

Continued marginalisation is at the root of any spike in AIDS cases in the African American population. There needs to be more education directed at African American men who engage in alternative sexual practices, so that they can be informed about the myriad of diseases that can be caused by going that route. Only racist pigs arrive to the conclusion that because of the morals enshrined in the African American family, the community is affected by HIV infections when in reality it's the opposite. It is those that have deviated from African American values and sense of community and family to embrace lifestyles that are know to shorten people's life, the ones that are infecting themselves and those in their communities.

It's the embrace by a few of a wrong mentality coupled with a total disregard for our real culture and institutions that are the real culprits for such increases of disease.

Dan, I get where you're coming from, but I just don't think that a white guy lecturing the black community at large is going to cause a positive change.

Loveschild,

I don't agree that being gay is an "alternative sexual practice" in and of itself, being gay is an inborn trait much like eye color and heigth. You may consider anal sex as an "alternative sexual practice", but it's participants are not always homosexuals (pleanty of staight people enjoy anal sex. There are some homosexuals who do not enjoy anal sex, too). Anal sex is just a means of having sex, it does not reflect a persons sexual orientation.

Sorry, if I miss understood you.

Especially a white guy that is obviously bitter towards blacks about Prop 8.

Dang, I mean height not "heigth". I need more coffee.

5 is partially correct here and Dan is talking without the support of data and the fact that he does not live in DC.

Other than prison sex, the other contributing factor in DC is the lack of a needle exchange program and lets face it, North East and South East DC's huge IV and crack users. I would say that the majority of the hetero women being infected in those communities are either drug users or girlfriends of guys getting out of jail which in DC is a huge chunk of the black population.

I am not sure what the situation is in Seattle, but I would imagine is much different than in DC.

I agree that homophobia and the whole down low thing does contributes to the high numbers of gay black MSM getting infected, but from the looks of the people getting "the bug" in DC in B-More, it is not black middleclass straight women who arent aware that their husbands are on the down low. If you look around the clinics and the streets you will see that it is the underclass that is getting the bug in DC.

But the money goes to groups who taylor messages to the "down low" or to the black middle class. Thats not going to reduce anything in DC. The reality in DC is much different. But nobody wants to fund messages for prostitutes, addicts, homeless and super poor people.

Dan's filled with such rage against blacks because at his core he is a racist. Unfortunately for his "cause", his racism continues to cloud his judgement and will also continue to thwart his efforts to help the homosexual population attain the level of rights that they deserve and are entitled to.

Oh, Loveschild, do you ever tire of being wrong?

Dan says what everyone else knows but won't say, or maybe won't let themselves believe. Good for him.

This isn't 1982, people. Every American regardless of skin tone who has gotten through the 8th grade in the last 25 years or ever watched the news knows what AIDS is and that it's spread through unprotected sex and shared needles. Some people still believe that you can get it other ways (any physical contact, toilet seats, etc.), but that would drive the rate of infection down, not up.

Either there is something about the genetics of Africans and African Americans and the HIV/AIDS virus that makes them particularly susceptible to infection--meaning the level of risk-taking is constant over all races--or it's something cultural. Whether it is a denial of risk level (I'm not really gay, so I won't get it; prison sex isn't real sex if you pretend it never happened; that nice guy/girl can't possibly give it to me), or a lack of self-care and self-respect (I'm gonna die soon anyway, so fuck it), or some other reason.

Research sounds like it might be a good idea. I think Dan has been insensitive about the whole Prop 8 thing, but he is at least telling the truth as he sees it. Too bad that he has prejudiced himself to those who are most affected by his message.

Dan you so extremely ignorant on race issues I won't even bother.

Let's just say you are part of the problem.

poverty does not cause AIDS. that myth has been thoroughly debunked. the problem is that more african american men go to prison than college.

The only black person Dan knows personally is Charles.

@ 19, @ 23 -

Is there a reason you are making assertions without making an argument? Okay, you think Dan is wrong. HOW?

As far as HIV rates in DC - well, lived there for years, worked in the medical community, and believe me when I say the issue is not education. Everyone "knows the facts" about transmission, just like everyone knows the facts about smoking and eating crappy food.

The problem is that nobody gives a shit about it. People really just don't care. I wouldn't even say it was hopelessness - just a 'yeah, yeah, whatever, use condoms' kind of attitude. People cared way more about running out of their appointment to buy their scratch lotto tickets or whatever.

But when you told someone they were infected, there were tears, rage, and disbelief. "How could this happen?", etc. etc. Then they'd vanish for six months and come back with syphilis. Which they already knew they could get from unsafe sex. At this point, the old disinterest and hostility was back. "I'll take the meds when I'm ready. I know my body."

Some of the most depressing work I've ever done. I don't think anything will work, unless we find a way for people to change their character. Lots of luck with that.

reverend dj riz, have you any thoughts on this?

Of course, Dan. It's because of homophobia that African-Americans are disproportionately infected with HIV. There's NO other reason. I guess that homophobia is the reason that African-Americans have a disproportionate infant mortality rate, shorter life expectancy, death from heart disease, stroke, cancer, and diabetes. Homophobia can be blamed for every problem in the black community. And all our problems could be solved instantly if we just listen to you and support the right of gays to marry. WOW! I mean, if we had known that all our problems stem from believing in God, being Christian, reading the Bible, attending church, and holding on to the fundamental tenets of our faith, we could have saved ourselves centuries of disproportionate problems in this country.

So, if we help you get Prop 8 overturned, all our other problems will disappear like magic? Hey, sign me up.

Now, I'm no homophobe, despite being afflicted with Christianity - Catholicism in particular. But if anyone could lead me down the path toward hatred and resentment of the gay community, it would be you. You are so bitter!! You are not the only one in this country who is the victim of discrimination, double standards, etc. But you want to lay all the problems of the gay community in this country at the feet of African-American Christians. ARE YOU KIDDING ME. Just how many black people do you think are members of Fred Phelps' church? Just how many black Mormons are there? Just how many African-Americans do you think gave THOUSANDS of dollars to pass 8?

Your complete and utter lack of understanding about African-Americans, our heritage, our struggles, our values, and our PRIORITIES is staggering.

Dan - if half, or even three quarters of ten percent of the population votes against you, it is still a drop in the bucket compared to half of sixty percent of the population. You need to convert a whole hell of a lot of white people to your side before you start pointing your finger at black people.

It isn't racist to point out that one group is discriminating against another. God damn, people.

African-American culture integrates strong elements of homophobia. It's fact. The numbers are in. It's also bad for both blacks and gays, and especially for black gays and their unfortunate spouses.

What part of all that is so wrong that it provokes all these attacks on Dan? Making ad hominem slurs against the guy who states the facts is... bewildering, honestly.

Oh, come on, it's not like in DC half the HIV infections are by straight men ...

Oh, wait, um ...

Never mind.

@ 28: You said:
"Of course, Dan. It's because of homophobia that African-Americans are disproportionately infected with HIV. There's NO other reason."

But in Dan's article, he said:
"A lot of factors fuels the AIDS epidemic in the African American community—poverty, a lack of access to medical care, poverty, underfunded outreach efforts, poverty, institutional racism, poverty—but the inability of African American men to come out of the closet and live as openly gay men within their own communities is a huge contributing factor."

I think you're accusing Dan of absolutism so you can find it objectionable. It certainly isn't in his posting. You're not really countering his points at all - you're just having a tantrum and throwing a few tangents out there to avoid having to address the argument on its own merits. I think you doth protest too much. Perhaps, deep down, you're afraid he might have a point?

Don't be coy, Dan-
Come out and say what's on your mind (you've already said it on SLOG before):
Blacks women don't support homosexual marriage so they DESERVE to get AIDS.

Run for Mayor.
This is a position that will get you a lot of national media attention (and that's really what talking about running for Mayor is all about, right?)

Is it possible, just possible, that the reason that african americans voted for Prop 8 in higher numbers is because they see continued erosion of a traditional family-based society -- as exemplified by the amount of promiscuous sex?

While The Stranger, (and I'm sure subsequent posters) will be quick to find exceptions to the rule (and bonus points if the culprits are youth pastors), the overwhelming statistics (health, happiness, productivity, stability) favor traditional families.

While there are plenty (plenty!) of gay couples whose unions should be recognized, the continued radicalization of "gay" -- perpetuated from within the gay "community," and left largely unquestioned -- has seriously (and unfortunately) diminished public support for he normalization/recognition of these marriages.

(Witness, on The Slog's feature this morning about the gay bar that wants to play porno DVDs. That is how gay men are portrayed by the media that purports to support them. Pretty damn convenient if you're a redneck evangelical! Pretty tough to support if you're the african american community, desperately seeking stability, decency and respect.)

The conversation is the thing. Thanks Dan.

@31 - Dan has been on this tangent since November. On November 5th, he started laying the blame for the passage of 8 on African-Americans. So unhappy was he, that he felt he couldn't fully celebrate with us that a black man was elected president because black people helped pass 8. He even went so far as to infer that we owed him something for supporting Obama. Black people were indebted to gay people for supporting the election of a black man. And ever since then, with the occasional attack on Mormons, he has used every opportunity to get on his soap box and lecture African-Americans about their homophobia, as have many gay Slog readers, sometimes in offensive and racist language.

So, here we are again, HIV in the African-American community. The first sentence lays it at the feet of homophobia in the community - AS IF - that is the primary reason. Sure he lists other factors, but does he address how any of those factors can be dealt with, no, certainly not. Why, because his underlying need is to continue blaming black people for prop 8. Homophobia is a 'huge" contributing factor. Not poverty, lack of access to health care, etc. No. Homophobia is huge!

Give me a break Yeek. How can I ignore the absolutism in his position, when the ONLY factor that he addresses is homophobia. Not education. Not access to better healthcare. Not the contribution of the disproportionate incarceration of black men. Not even IV drug abuse, and the prostitution that often accompanies it. No - let's start with homophobia.

I'm not having a tantrum. His argument does not stand up when compared to all of the other contributing factors.

It's sad that whenever someone points out facts like 3% of DC's black population is infected with AIDS or that 70% of black voters in California voted to take away gay people's right to marry someone (usually black) calls racism. Wrong. Just pointing out the facts.

Interracial dating is a HUGE issue in the black community. Black women are especially angry about black men dating outside of their race. That is why black women in California were more likely to vote for Prop 8 than black men (the only racial group where women out voted men) and take away gay people's right to vote because black women do not want black gay men with black gay men. 70% of black women are single, the highest percentage of any racial group of women in the United States. Blacks particularly black women believe they are losing blacks to other races with interracial dating so having a black man get with a black man is double whammy.

Yes, anti-gay bigotry is disproportionate in the black community. Black people don't like to talk about it with people other than blacks. The National Black Justice Coalition did a survey last summer and found that 23% of black people supported gay couples right to marry compared with 35% for Latinos, 46% for whites and 55% for Asians.

Anti-gay bigotry plays a huge role in HIV infection. I can't even go into all the ways it plays a part so I'll only give two examples. If a person feels they can't come out because it will compromise their income, family or safety they will hide i.e. be on the down low. Anti-gay bigotry effects gay people's evaluation of themselves and low self-esteem has been connected with unprotected sex for both gay people and heterosexual.

Thanks Dan.

The truth is that most in the straight black community could give a rat's ass about black LGBT's unless we are doing something for them.

Even in the mid to late 80's 1/2 of those who contracted the disease were African American. Our communities had the organizations then to deal with the problem, either our own men.

Do take into account that in the 80's crack cocaine was a bigger problem in the African American community. No doubt, drug addiction is a contributing factor in this now.

So Dan, yeah, you have a fucked up and bitchy way of saying things sometimes, but you do say them.

And thank you Loveschild for calling black LGBTs deviants. You wouldn't even have a black culture and you may not have had a sucessful civil rights movement if it weren't for black (and white for that matter) LGBTs.

Ain't that a bitch?

@Really Sick of Dan: A+!

[REWIND]

Even in the mid to late 80's 1/2 of those who contracted the disease were African American. Our communities had the organizations then to deal with the problem, either just dealing with gay black men or even with gay white men who were suffering too. All of us were turned away.

1) One thing that would help. A black Signorile that would kick down all these closet doors, especially in the black conservative churches.

2) The really sad thing about this is Dan was able to say more about this than Tavis Smiley.

Figure that one out.

kind of beside the point, but i'm pretty sure i saw dan on tv saying that prop 8 was NOT the african-american community's fault, or even really the mormons' fault, but old people. and, i think this is a direct quote, "the good news is... they're dying."

15 Excuse me, nobody is holding a gun to peoples heads and telling them to engage in sexual practices in places that weren't meant to be used for that.

Using the term alternative is if nothing being courteous on my part. I've heard more accurate definitions for it. At least I should take heart in seeing that you did not come out in Savage's defense....well you couldn't have unless you are as racist as he is. Why don't you ever respond to Dan's racist dribble against African Americans Kim? I know you are some sort of fan of his but how you not being a racist pig like he is do you reconcile with admiring so much such a bigot? That is not very Christian on your part.

@42 - Nobody's holding a gun's to anyone's head and telling them to stick to missionary for procreation any time and all the time either. Why don't you rail against kissing instead? After all it's much more widespread and people shouldn't be putting their lips and tongue in places that weren't meant to be used for that, ie on or in other people's mouths.

And stop being courteous, the term "alternative" is just as offensive. Tell us what these supposed "more accurate definitions" are. And let us know exactly why they're accurate while you're at it.

It's sad that a child of love would be filled with such bile.

it's "drivel" loveschild. what are the more "accurate definitions", in your opinion?

To answer your (rhetorical) question, Dan:

Yes, "we" can talk about it. How many articles has The Stranger published about Black Homophobia?

And while we're discussing it, can "we" also discuss racism in the Gay Community? How many articles has The Stranger published about that?

"We" would include you, Dan Savage, and you, The Staff of The Stranger. You can always START the conversations you want, Dan, by interviewing some local folks and publishing an article in The Stranger, rather than just talking about the issues in the abstract with a national scope.

I repeat my challenge for you to interview local queers of color about BOTH issues mentioned above.

45
ftw

Loveschild,

First, who said anything about holding a gun to someone's head?

Second, when it comes to Dan's post (this actual post) I agree with Chitown Kev.

Third, I was trying to understand your perspective. Trying to understand what "alternative" means to you.

Sorry, for trying to understand you. When it comes to grasping who you are, I only have your comments. So, I have a very small idea of you. I'd like to think there is more to you than what you say. That we may even share some common values.

You are correct, I do enjoy reading Savage's post, column, podcasts, and books. I find him challenging, he forces me to think outside my comfort zone. What I found is, Dan Savage is both kind and a pain in the ass. I also found that we share some common values.

Now for the bigot issue. I am not convinced Dan Savage is a racist. Does he come off as an angry, cynical shit starter who lets his emotions get the best of him? In my opinion he does.
Do I agree with him on everything? Hell no, I don't.

Whereas, your posts indicate to me that you may be both a bigot and a homophobe. Sorry, but that is what your comments indicate to me. Your, comments come accross as insulting and disparaging to homosexuals because their sexual orientation makes you uncomfortable.

Finally, I find your continual throwing my faith in my face amusing. Why, don't you just answer my questions? Why, won't you help me understand you? I fear it is because you have an agenda and that you're not hear to gain understanding.

My conscience is clear. I'm not here to judge people, either you or Savage. I'm here to gain a better understanding of humanity and to ponder what I read. In doing so I hope to gain compassion and to grow in love for my fellow humans.

@47 kim, the one rule I am breaking (and in a big way) is that I am talking about things that should be discussed "in the black community" outside the community in front of white folks, it's a cardinal sin.

I am not going to go into it to deeply, but "Down Low" could describe many different aspects of black culture that have totally nothing to do with sexuality. It's kinda like when a kid acts up in public, a parent is maybe not so mad for whatever the child did, it has more to do with the child embarassing the parent in public. That tpye of thing.

Chitown Kev,

Thanks, for explaining. My agreement with you has to do with your finding Dan Savage a cynical shit starter, with a fucked up and bitchy way of saying some things. I find the description both colorful and on target.

@ 35 - See? It wasn't that hard to focus a little more clearly on Dan's specific points. Good to see you an be brought brought back from shrieksville.

But you still have some bad habits:

"How can I ignore the absolutism in his position, when the ONLY factor that he addresses is homophobia. Not education. Not access to better healthcare."

To be fair to Dan, he actually did address those two items as contributing factors, along with homophobia. We all have our particular causes, and Dan (as we know) is particularly interested in causes related to gay rights - he's allowed to care about one thing more than others, as is anyone. Perhaps he feels homophobia is a contributing factor that people aren't willing to talk about, unlike some of the others you mentioned. Whatever. Maybe he's wrong.

You may not like Dan, but that's nothing special - does he have a point this time or not? Do you think it's likely that homophobia contributes to HIV among the AA community of DC, or do you think it's unlikely?

47 I find your response to my simple question to you highly insulting.

First, Dan is an avowed racist bigot. What else would you call anyone who blames the passing of a law that he doesn't like on African Americans? A racist bigot. This is not new, he has been doing this for a while.

Second, As for you calling me a bigot all I can respond to your insulting description of me is, I love my family, my community and my culture. That's why I fully support laws that seek to protect them. And I will not stand silent while others attack them just because they call me names as you have.
Homosexuals can do as they wish but I will not let my government celebrate homosexual marriages with my tax payer dollars, society doesn't have to celebrate that behavior, I will not stand quietly while my kids are being taught in school that two kings marrying is fine and I will not let programs be shown on the TV about how cool homosexual sex is. If thats what you want for your family that's your problem. But that Kim doesn't make me nor the majority of Americans bigots.

Last, I have been nothing but respectful of your religion even thought I do not understand much of it. My mere mention of it was an attempt by me of trying to ask you what does it teach about associations with or admiring racists, as you do Dan. I'm sorry I ever asked you that. I naively thought that you would reciprocate the countless questions you have asked of me and the times I have responded to you in a clear firm but respectful manner.

I heard the head of DC's Public Health Department's AIDS office on the radio this morning and she said "I think we need to do a better job of public education."

REALLY? Ya think?

It was as if it was 1982 all over again.

TD Jakes is the a great example.

His step-son gets caught jacking off in a park for a male undercover cop, and TD Jakes says he is broken.

He'll be even more broken when he gets the AIDS.

We need a male version of Wanda Sykes.

Still, the NAACP expressed opposition to Prop. 8. That is very noteworthy.

NAACP is one of the top black American organizations.

And, we have people like Ron Sims. He is an ordained Baptist minister and he is pro-gay.

More black American pastors need to be imbued with the attitude of Ron Sims.

Eventually, people like Jakes and Hucherson will be outnumbered in the black church.

poverty does not cause AIDS. that myth has been thoroughly debunked. the problem is that more african american men go to prison than college.

Brandon honey, don't you think maybe going to prison instead of college might have something to do with widespread poverty? I know back in my all-white redneck hometown poverty and jail go hand-in-hand, and I bet AIDS tags along with them.

Loveschild, @ 51,

I am truly sorry that you feel insulted. It was not my intention to be insulting.

I wish you had read my comment carefully. I did not call you a bigot. I said you may be one. There is a big difference.

"Whereas, your posts indicate to me that you may be both a bigot and a homophobe. Sorry, but that is what your comments indicate to me. Your, comments come accross as insulting and disparaging to homosexuals because their sexual orientation makes you uncomfortable."

In expressing my concern you have the opportunity to say. "No, Kim. You misunderstand me .....!" Thus, I gain understanding.

As to Dan Savage being an avowed racist. I have never heard him make such a declaration. I have heard him go off on a tirade, but I thought it was more about him venting his feelings. I interpreted his anger to be more about pain and disappointment, than to be a true indication of his feelings towards the African American community. Still, I acknowledge that because I am not African American, I likely do not fully grasp how hurtful his words are. I'm sorry that his words hurt you.

You were always welcomed to ask me about my faith. It is you who said that you weren't religious, attended church regularly, and that you didn't understand it. So, I am sorry if my amusement hurt you. I interpreted your multiple comments, to mean that you were telling me how to be a Christian. I can't think of a passage from the Bible that intstructs how to interact with a "racist". But, I can think of these:

"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven." Matthew 5:43,44,45a

"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Matthew 7:1

"Do to others as you would have them do to you." Luke 6:31

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13:34,35

Thus, I don't struggle to reconcile my fondness for Mr. Savage. There is nothing amoral about liking someone, even when they act assholish. Dan Savage is far more complex than his posts. There is a lot of beauty to him.

I can accept that you believe that you have always responded to me thoughtfully and respectfully. But, I do not agree.

That being said, I will in the future do my best to curb my desire for comprehension about your perspective. I do not wish to fight with you, or to get in a name calling match. I had hoped to gain a greater understanding of your heart because I perceived beauty in it. I am sorry that we could not learn from each other.

Best wishes to you and your family.

rewind:

I meant to say, that you said you didn't attend church on a regular basis.

56 You have a strange way of apologizing (if that's what you intended to do), as for Savage, he is what he is. Just read the tittle of his latest post. He enjoys vilifying African Americans. And the trash that he posts is hurtful to all black people.

I also find it funny that you can quote all these Bible passages to support something that from what I have read from the Bible (me not being that much of a regular church attendant) is something very clearly explained yet you cannot find one single passage about racism.

Kim do your "best" in thinking about how your 'fondness" of a racist person might influence subconsciously your life. I still like to think you're a nice well intentioned misguided person.

Best to you and yours.

@57,

You asked for a passage about associating with a racist. I can't think of a verse specific to that. Nor, can I find any verse attributed to Christ on the subject. If you know of one, please give it.

@57 Don't you DARE speak for all black people. It's black people that won't speak up that's the problem.

I'm not saying that I agree entirely with dan's post, but it's bigots like you that's the problem (and yes, I DID call you a bigot).

Savage,

You said, can we talk? Start talking.

@18: DC does have a needle exchange. However, due to the realities of local politics (no effective/serious home rule), exchange was implemented far later than it should have been and is seriously underfunded. We exchange more syringes in Seattle per year than DC does.

@22: There is indeed a genetic vulnerability to HIV among Africans (and those of African descent). Oddly, the genetic twist is one that provides increased resistance to malaria (so was a beneficial trait and conducive to increased fitness).

The poverty rate and quite related incarceration rate for young black males in DC is among the highest in the US...if not the highest.

'but the inability of African American men to come out of the closet and live as openly gay men within their own communities is a huge contributing factor." - NONSENSE! How many white men live as OPENLY GAY men within their own communities? The majority of white gay men in DC have MOVED here from somewhere else! They can be openly gay HERE but they wouldnt be able to in the places where they originally grew up! In other large cities you have a similar situation! How many white gay men are openly gay? Im sure there are more who live in secret, the same as the "down low" black gay men so many are eager to disparage!

@62 Good point.

And that's where poverty and education come into play; i.e. most white gay men, I suspect, come out when they go away to college and they keep going away.

Actually, that statement about college would be true for black gays who do go to college as well. Problem is not as great of a percentage of black gays (like other black men) go to college therefore, they don't leave "the black community."

That's still a way too simple explanation of certain factors. Then you would have to get into an examination of the value of education in black communities (and here comes that ugly little class issue). If that discussion blows my head up (and it does) I can imagine what it would do to Dan.

Loveschild @ 57,

I disagree with you that I am misguided. We just don't agree on this subject. When Christ commands us to "love our neighbor as ourselves" in Matthew 19:19, Mark 12:31 and Luke 10:27, he isn't just saying love the person who lives next door, he is saying to love the person different from you, because the person is made in the image of himself. I am choosing to love both you and Savage. Not because we agree, but because Christ died for you both.

Loveschild is still here, still feeling insulted, still talking sentences full of words that search for a thought? Fascinating.

You're right Dan. And for the Dan-haters, go read TNC at The Atlantic. He says the same shit. And he's Black and straight, so you might be able to, er, swallow it a bit more easier.

And I guess a follow up question would be why would an African American man who comes out in his own community (as I did) want to stay in his own community?

Because I sure didn't. I did just what slmost any other gay guy of any ethnicity did, really. I got the fuck up and got the fuck out. And I told my family I wasn't coming back and I haven't gone back, save for a few visits.

Ugh. Dan Savage, racist bigot. Excuse me: I have to go take Savage Love off my blogroll before anyone thinks I endorse this kind of crap.

"What else would you call anyone who blames the passing of a law that he doesn't like on African Americans? A racist bigot." --Are you serious? If whites pass racist laws they deserve to be blamed for them and I KNOW you wouldn't find fault with calling them racist for supporting racist legislation. Are Blacks exempt?? As for your rant about not wanting to give tax dollars to gay couples (it's ok that I fund your benefits, though), and how Prop 8 will protect families (by preventing gay families from having married parents, no doubt, straight people will stop divorcing), and stop the pro-sodomy education campaign in schools (how? what campaign), it's all nonsense. I don't care if you don't like it; this is America, you get to live your life, not control mine, which is why I'll defend the rights of people to marry under absurd philosophies such as Mormonism and scientology and the older, grandfathered in ones.

As for Black susceptibility to HIV: says who? I'm a physician, never heard of such a thing. There are inherited predispositions to conditions such as sickle cell (heterozygosity takes the edge off malaria) and differences in hypertension and heart failure and some other conditions, but HIV? Data?

Dan, I love you, but you're fishing here. Perhaps you should read the ENTIRE article. Yes, MSM is still the dominant mode of transmission - but not among African-Americans. Heterosexual transmission is the predominant mode of transmission among blacks who tested positive, at 33%. Indeed, heterosexual transmission has increased since the District was last studied. Homosexual transmission was responsible for 78% of infections among whites and 49% of Latinos. The disproportionate amount of homosexual transmission is mostly because of white people. 7% of black men are infected and 3% of black women - and yet black women make up over 25% of the infected population. Perhaps the absurd incarceration rate has skewed the numbers somewhat (many DC prisons are not within the city limits). All y'all people angry at gay/less-than-entirely-straight people giving out the HIV in DC, stop blaming just them. Blame the 7 in 10 infected people who did not use a condom the last time they had intercourse, most of whom were straight like you. Blame DC's notoriously shoddy infrastructure. Blame the public health system that allows other infections like syphilis and Tb to flourish. Blame the politicians who refuse to give DC statehood or even control over its own budget so they can do what is necessary (took us years to get needle exchange because of congressmen who don't give two farts about poor young black men who can't vote for them). Blame Marion Berry, former civil rights activist, mayor, and convicted felon, whose corruption drove DC into ground for good. But laying the blame squarely at the feet of black men on the DL? That's pure spin, Dan, and you're better than that.

OH MISS DAN SAVAGE, WHY ARE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE? YOU DAMN SURE ENOUGH WASN'T CONCERNED AFTER NOV 4TH WE WERE YOUR ENEMY. AND POSTING THIS I'M SURE IS YOUR WAY OF REVENGE. BTW YOU'RE POSTING THIS TO A PREDOMINATELY WHITE GAY MALE AUDIENCE WHO PROBABLY DO NOT EVEN INTERACT WITH ANYONE WHO IS BLACK AND GAY.

OKAY TO OUR WHITE GAY BROTHERS ON THE OTHER SIDE.ANY SUGGESTIONS?

SINCE IT SEEMS THAT AFTER ALL THE SEX PARTIES, THE PHONE LINES LOOKING FOR BAREBACK SEX, DISCREET WHITE MARRIED MEN WHO ARE ON THOSE LINES WHO IS ALSO LOOKING FOR MAN TO MAN SEX. SEEMS THAT NO ONE IS CATCHNG HIV IN THE WHITE GAY MALE COMMUNITY. SO WHAT'S THE SECRET?

IT DAMN SURE ENOUGH ISN'T CONDOMS WHEN THEY BAREBACK AND SWALLOW SEAMEN.

@7 wrote:
"It's the whole "Down Low" thing- a black man can rationalize his homosexual behavior if he doesn't use condoms, apparently because condom use is akin to acknowledging you're really gay.

I didn't say it made much sense, but that's the reality."

It makes about as much sense as believing that if you admit to yourself that you might have sex on a date and take condoms along, you're a slut, and if you don't take the condoms and wind up having unprotected sex, you're still a good girl or boy.

I'm afraid that some people still have it in their heads that identifying as gay somehow causes AIDS rather than risky behavior.

Unfortunately, many people just can't be rational on the topic of sex.

Either way, DC is fucked. Protect yourself, because nobody else will.

I heard somewhere recently that Washington state had a 3% HIV/AIDS rate. I found this incredibly unbelievable but haven't spent the time to determine its veracity. If it holds up, does that mean we're a bunch of homophobes? Or just fools?

Oh, huh, maybe that was Washington DC they were talking about. that makes a lot more sense! Damn fool homophobes out there!

I don't want to piss off any of these angry black people that sound to be so enraged themselves, but are we not supposed to be upset, and angry even. If the numbers are true and that many blacks voted for prop 8, of course were angry. You voted against our rights. Now of course I wouldn't assume all black people are this way and I respect them even if they are. I judge people on their own personal ways, such as kindness, not race, religion or sexual orientation. That does not mean that as a whole, I was not disapointed. Also as far as Dan's post, it is true that closeted men (black or straight) are not as safe. We all say it in the 70's and 80's. When you know your family and friends will never except you, you go what we could say is "under ground". With these feelings comes drinking and drug use and a lack of safe sex. It's nothing against the black community to say that being gay is still more taboo in the black (as well as latino) community than in the white community. It's not that were nay better, we still have plenty of our own problems. As in terms of our community being more violently homophobic, I feel like that in the white community, we have a wider divide. Either we love gays or hate them, not as much of a middle ground as in other couloured minorites. But don't get mad at me...just my opinion.

By the way, in my last comment, I made a type...it was supposed to read black or white, not black or straight. It's damn late here, lol.

loveschild, a pox on you! i've seen your posts for a while. you are a sick, twisted piece of shit and i sincerely hope that one day you get your fingers stuck in your own asshole so you can no longer type. fuck you. seriously. you degrade yourself every time you open your goddamn mouth.

Loveschild is MacDiva.

Loveschild is lonely.

Dan's comments perpetuate ignorant notions about minorities with regard to sexual behavior. The "on the down low" phenomenon has been researched extensively in reports published in the Annals of Epidemiology. Here are quotes from a Reuters report in 2007.

"First of all, the practice of straight men secretly having sex with men is seen across all ethnic groups.

Also, Ford notes, while black men and women have higher rates of HIV infection than other ethnic groups, they also report fewer risk behaviors, suggesting researchers should look elsewhere to understand the disparity.

For example, she adds, having a bacterial sexually transmitted infection can increase the risk of both transmitting and contracting HIV, and it is possible such infections may be more common among blacks than whites due to poorer access to health care.

Research has refuted the claim that black men living the down low lifestyle are driving the spread of HIV, Ford said, but the perception that this is the case remains, even in the epidemiology community. She points to a dean at a colleague's school who urged researchers to study "the down low" after seeing a TV segment on it.

The view of black sexuality as deviant and diseased has deep roots, Ford noted, pointing to the way the public and the medical community viewed syphilis in the early 20th century as a disease of the black community."

Here is a link to the entire article.

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNew…

This is very important, because this report was not widely reported by main stream media - and many well intentioned leaders in the black community have bought into the racist hype. But if one takes a step back, it's easy to see statistics this startling cannot be explained by oversimplified social sexual stereotypes. How then are so many women contracting HIV? I don't know - but basic science and epidemiology would say that "closeted black men" is a gross if not irresponsible claim for causation.

IN ADDITION - in January of 2008, American Medical News reported that 5% (or 1 in 20) of D.C. Residents were HIV+. Not 3% - but 5%.

See: http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2008/01…

This means that the recent reports actually show a 40% drop in HIV+ people. And these numbers are coming out of major health institutions. Where are the articles celebrating the 40% downturn in a single year in HIV positives in D.C.?

Sarcasm aside, the point is that these statistics are suspect - as are MANY stats touted by the press and politicians. It is important to be critical in our thinking and ask people to explain the discrepancies. If in thirteen months, numbers can vary by 40% - who are we to believe? And if scientific literature is available that disproves the "on the down low" theory - why does this not get reported?

Common sense should also prevail here. Black Americans are roughly 13% of the population - but make up HALF of HIV infections. That is a remarkable. And to claim this is mostly due to "black homophobia" is absurd if not outright racist.

@ 80,

Thank you for the links.

First of all, the practice of straight men secretly having sex with men is seen across all ethnic groups.

This is irrelevant to the topic at hand, and doesn't refute anything. When someone opens an important topic with a meaningless, apologetic statement like this one, it makes me hesitant to spend time and energy reading anything else the person has to say.

Jade,

I'm confused by your comment.

Dan says:
"...but the inability of African American men to come out of the closet and live as openly gay men within their own communities is a huge contributing factor."

I'm pointing out that this sort of statement - and those that go a step further by claiming "on the down low" is a big reason for heterosexual transmission of HIV to black women - has no foundation in the scientific literature. It is an argument based on anecdotal stories, media driven books (as seen on Oprah Winfrey), and television shows (like Law and Order.) The quote you cite is from the research done and presented in the Annals of Epidemiology - hardly a journal to scoff at.

I am not addressing the Prop 8 debate - because my focus here is on the temptation of some journalists and bloggers to make general statements about an entire subculture - statements that I believe to be myths as shown by solid research studies. These myths about black sexuality lead to a lot of "blame", perpetuate stereotypes, and cloud the need to discover the accurate reasons for such disproportionate numbers of HIV infected African Americans.

Can Dan or anyone else cite a scientific study - published and peer reviewed - that shows that African Americans operate within such a different sexual paradigm as to cause 13% of the US Population to account for 50% of all HIV infection? Perhaps there is such an official research study. I'd like to read it.

clearlyhere, the reason you dont see many black gay men at the bars YOU go in washington dc is because black gay men go to DIFFERENT ones! Blacks and whites in DC dont intermingle that much - blacks go where they want and whites go where THEY want!

This is my view as a straight black man who is highly attracted to white women.

It seems like black people should "see the light" WRT homosexuality. The popular perception is that black people are liberals, and that their enemies are conservative whites.

Reality is quite different though. They are just as conservative (sometimes even more so) as whites. Black and white Americans share similar beliefs and values. Many blacks are bible thumping theocrats. Many are black nationalists/supremacists/separatists. A large number believe in traditional christian values. Many even believe in the War on Terror, in torture, in despotism, fascism, etc. Yeah, these same blacks vote Democrat (most of them, anyway), but that is because Democrats are perceived to fight on the side of blacks. But they are just as conservative as the whites who vote Republican.

This conservatism is usually not acknowledged. The white liberals who called Malcolm X a black conservative in the 1950s and 1960s were right. But because they vote Democrat, they are improperly classified as liberals. They are part of the liberal "voting bloc", but many are not truly liberal, and many have a distrust of liberals. With this, the black community is let off the hook for saying things that would get whites in trouble. And with that, they can denounce homosexuality in ways that would get whites in trouble. These same people denounce interracial relationships in a similar manner to racist white people. But because they are part of the "liberal bloc", no one ever calls them out on it.