Election Officials Reverse R-71 Error Rate

Comments

1
Well, shit.
2
From the sounds of it, the master checkers are only double-checking invalidated signatures, not validated ones. This unfairly biases the process towards validating the referendum.
3
Thanks for the reporting, I saw the numerical discrepancy on the Sec. of State's page this morning and was wondering what happened. I figured just a posting error, but this is bad news. Hey Loveschild, guess those gay "plants" aren't doing the job you think they were.
4
You can't project that it won't make the ballot, because I've already projected that it will! And since it will, you all better panic! Being prepared and panicking? Same thing! PANIC!

And Loveschild was right! There are people who have infiltrated this process! They took all the "signature doesn't match" invalidations and made the statistically improbable move of declaring them ALL valid! Who is it? Rivers of Glory Church? Loveschild's "church"?

Really though, they can keep trying this, and I'll keep getting annoyed that they're stalling, but it's trending our way anyway.
5
Loveschild must be creaming herself, although this does sort of blow her massive gay conspiracy theory out of the water (although I'm sure she has some other imaginary evils waiting in the wings to comfort her bigotry, if needed).
6
Let the whining and hand wringing commence in 5, 4, 3, 2 ...
7
@2 - Great point! Is Washington Families Standing Together ready to step up and challenge this in court? Time do donate.
8
Folks, this is a good reminder to be careful when signing your ballot envelope; the envelope signature must match the signature on your voter registration form. An election worker compares each envelope to the signature on file. No match, no vote. Sign carefully!
9
@6: Whining about whining, how meta
10
9
what's whining about whining that's about whining then?
11
@4 Just how is it "trending our way"? The overall invalidation rate is going down, not up.
12
I'm thinking about Dan's post from earlier today. I would rather that this initiative is defeated before it gets to the ballot. If we do need to vote, I hope that civil rights (not to mention basic human rights) prevail and the haters are soundly defeated.

But the truth is, this one battle doesn't even matter so much. The bigots have already lost. Most decent people agree that there is no reason to prevent a loving couple from making a wedding vow. The currents of history are flowing our way, and the fact that it has been so difficult to get even a minimum number of signatures in support of hatred is one more sure sign that we are winning.
13
even if it does qualify, it will be quite satisfying to see the law upheld by voters. kinda takes the wind out of the bigots sails.
14
@11: The support for domestic partnerships in this state is increasing, Senator Murray (that imprudent ass!) has been approaching this in a big picture manner, and we're also trending toward majority support for marriage equality.

Preparing for the chance we'll lose is really just preparing to lose with victory as happenstance. Preparing for victory is just that, and any loss is just a setback.
15
@12: Thank you, wonderfully said-- you win the "Baconcat's Favorite Commenter" Award for today and join the gilded pantheon of Kim in Portland and riz.

"I have a dream" beats "I have a nightmare" any day of the week.
16
They need to give the people that signed it, after being lied to (against God's Commandment) by the signature gatherers that this allowed for gay marriage, a chance to rescind their signature if it doesn't match.

Sue early. Sue often. Sue Hutchinson open court documents do not include ALL THE DETAILS and she still hates America and evolution.
17
Maybe you could just wait until the count has gone through the full process and see how it comes out rather than breathlessly check the score every day and create confusion?seems they are doing what they normally do to make sure the ballot measure gets a proper review. You're just impatient.
18
This back and forth whiplash reporting on the numbers is exactly why I've been encouraging people to ignore the numbers and focus on the prize -- preserving domestic partnerships by approving referendum 71. Nothing else is more important right now than having conversations with everyone we now about why equality is important, volunteering for the campaign, and contributing financially in what ever amount you can afford. We MUST assume we are going to the ballot until we have the final number confirming one way or another.

19
Really. Be honest here. Who would sign this petition that didn't really want to?

For the most part, it was only offered in Conservative "safe havens" where it was explained what it was and where most would have signed it.

You may disagree with the sentiment, but its worse that the state is making a fool of Democracy in action...
20
Baconcat @ 15,

Does this mean I get to buy you a beer/whiskey if we are ever at a SLOG happy together?
21
Just who are these "master checkers" and what are their qualifications? Good eyes? No political affiliation? Is there a grand master checker supreme who checks the master checker?

22
@18 Well said Joe.
23
@20: Well, okay, if you insist! :)

@18: I thought our prize was equality, going beyond this stepping stone no matter the outcomes or setbacks. This current brand of advocacy is so fierce.
24
Why is the secretary of state ignoring the fact that the signatures were plainly gathered under false pretenses? They lied. Some fair number of signers SUPPORT gay rights but were misled. That should invalidate the whole shebang.

Referendums suck ass.
25
Then pealed the bells
      more loud and deep:
God is not dead,
      nor doth He sleep;
The wrong shall fail,
      the right prevail
With peace on earth,
      good will to men.
26
@24
The SofS, like everyone else, realizes the gays are world class whiny bitches and tunes out the whining.
27
We need to legally challenge their count. Is there a provision for this in the state constitution?
28
To the people who are so upset about the lying that was done as people were gathering signatures.

I think it is important to remember that people can/should always read things before they sign them. Yes the signature gatherers should not have lied/ are abhorrent unto the eyes of the lord… BUT if some random stranger approaches you on the street sticks a piece of paper in your face and tells you to sign it, AND you fail to read it that is your fault.

Don’t get me wrong I do not want this to qualify! But these people do bear responsibility for their lack of common sense. Instead of crying wolf maybe they should volunteer/donate money to www.wafst.org . And in the future hopefully they will take some time to educate themselves before signing legal documents in the parking lot of a Wal-mart.
29
24
Dan asked me to convey to Slog his fervent and insistent desire that such individuals be referred to as "opposite signers"
30
We should all be so lucky for this referendum to make it on the ballot. Let the bigots waste the next three months spending money, begging for donations, and making promises they can't possibly keep. Let them air disgusting campaign ads that will alienate the undecided and moderates. Nakedly trying to prevent gay couples from having the most basic protections and rights is a gigantic tactical error on their part. A resounding, public defeat on this issue (which, given the polls I've seen, is fully expected) will break their backs. Their funding sources will dry up, and disgusted moderates will marginally begin to sway towards sympathy for gay couples. Consider R71 our vaccination against the real disease.
31
You girls are hysterical getting your panties in a wad about being "Lied To".
Obama abused you like cheap whores and yet you keep going back for more...
32
Matching signatures with a voter registration list is a ridiculous way of confirming identity. The proliferation of point-of-sale terminals, the virtual disappearance of knuckle-wrapping handwriting instruction in elementary school, the decline of the need for ever writing words other than your signature, and the accelerating pace of life have all conspired to make signatures sloppy and highly variable.

Clearly, we need deployment of iris scans/pocket DNA labs to confirm identity. Seriously.
33
If you truly are a believer in democracy (unlike Dominic Holden and the rest of the cohorts) then you'll see this as a positive sign. I knew there was tampering in the counting process and I repeat what I have said before keep people like Ammons and the other plants out of this process, make it legitimate have an honest count and keep people like him from throwing out the votes whenever they feel like it.

I applaud Mr Reeds for trying to set this straight, he now what that he has uncovered how some of those counting these signatures have engage in improper behavior.

"Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him." - James 1:12
34
I wish I had signed that petition now...after seeing you Cuban heel wearing ninnies stamping on the (state) Constitution.
35
Praise be to the one who created us all. I meant to say,

I applaud Mr Reeds for trying to set this straight, now that he has uncovered that some (the plants) of those counting these signatures have engaged in improper behavior.

I now the attacks against those who want to see this democratic process take place have not ended. But our God is a mighty God.

He's telling us,

I’ve got the VICTORY, the VICTORY! 'Cause whatever You’re in now, God says
You have to come out!

Come out of depression, Come out of low self-esteem, Come out of poverty, Come out of lesbianism, Come out of homosexuality, let's GO! Come on!

Because the devil is defeated and God be praised!
36
@35:

Oh my Goddess, you sound like a fucking cheerleader. Fricka-Afrack-bish-boom-bah.

And no one can come out of their sexual orientation, you little self-delusional, bigoted, frigid bitch.
37
@35: I'm sorry you're so unhappy in your own skin that you're trying to pluck the speck from the eyes of others when you've got a sequoia-sized plank in your own.

You do highlight the "righteous hateful joy" your anti-family/anti-equality side traffics in, though, so thanks for giving us an example of the kind of evil we're up against.
38
I'm telling you, Loveschild is a thesis project for a group of sociology majors.
39
Your priceless, Miss 142 days of being a Christian, even a bit endearing while you slander others, and I love you none the less, Loveschild.

Now stop squealing about being persecuted, and let God be mighty.

Stop pointing your finger at others, and deal with your need to slander others.
40
@38: Oh no doubt on that, but I doubt me, Kim or riz can let this one go without shaking it out like an old used rug for a bit.
41
37 As one of the songs I have currently playing in my ipod says,

"Forget tryin' to be down, let the world know you've been changed.
How you gonna be the praise leader?

I'm trynna tell you God ain't pleased. And since when did it become cool for you to live together unmarried? Men with men? Women with women? I'm tellin you God ain't gon' have it."

God does love you (as do I) Baconcat and he wants you to be a happy. Give him a chance you wont regret it.
42
You fascinate me Loveschild, I've never interacted with someone as fearful as you are. Unlike the women in my domestic violence group, who's fears are legitimate, your fears of persecution, destruction of "traditional family", destruction of the US are illegitimate. You claim to be full of joy, but your always on here with your conspiracy theories and your we're going to persecuted for signing a public petition. So, here's my theory. You're afraid that your marriage won't survive if we have marriage equality in this country. The reasons your fearful that your marriage will fail are as follows: 1) You claim to be in your 20's, the immaturity of your comments, your need to slander others who disagree with you, your propensity to call the race card when people disagree with you are all indications that you're young and prejudiced. 2) You claim to have three minor children, two boys and one girl. You claim that your two boys are six feet tall, you have to look up to them, and that they have girlfriends. Seeing that the average ages for boys to reach 6 feet tall is 12-15 years of age, this indicates that you had your boys while you were still a minor. Which leads me to believe that you engaged in premarital sex, and that your morals are not as pure as you'd have everyone believe here. Do not get me wrong, I'm not judging you if that's the case, all of us fall short of God's glory. Still, your house is made of glass and you should understand it isn't safe to throw stones.

And, you are right. God does love, Baconcat. He knitted him together in his mother's womb, and knew everyone of of his days before they came to be. Baconcat pleases God, exactly as he is, for God knew what he was doing when he created him. And, I love Baconcat, exactly as he is and desire him to live in this society with full equality. You, may believe that you love Baconcat, but you aren't able to, because those who fear cannot love fully. You fear Baconcat, you fear his being fully equal to you, and thus your love is hollow and insincere. Those who love don't seek to oppress those they love, they seek freedom and equality. So, if you really want to love Baconcat, then stop seeking to deny him full equality. Stop trying to deny him full protection under the laws of this country. Stop trying to keep him as a second class citizen. Let God be in control, and then perhaps God's LGBTQ children will finally be able to see that they are loved. Give God a chance to reach them over the bigotry and hatred, vote for their equality, you won't regret it.
43
@42 Damn I love you Kim.
44
@42: Wow.

No words.
45
Everybody chill on the vote counting til' it's finished (but keep investigating and reporting, Dom...). Get organized to a) fight this in court, because any idiot could have foreseen a recount - or demand for one - no matter who "wins" the first count, and b) politic voters for a November vote, because any idiot knows that gay rights are a tough battle when it comes to a popular vote. Or we could all debate Loveschild, cuz if we win that argument, no one will be against us!
46
Awwwww, Kim <3

Also, does anyone else think Loveschild sounds drunk tonight? Or is that pretty normal?
47
Loveschild, there's nothing more dreary than a scripture quoter. Shouldn't you be at vacation Bible camp or something?

I think I'll become an Episcopalian (although I'll have to wait until my mother is gone to do it, as that would probably kill her). Give me a nice civilized religion where they don't get all Bible-y any day.

That's one of the things I do like about my native Catholicism - they leave the Bible to the priests and the scholars, and nobody does anything dreary like quote scripture at you. I don't think we cracked the family Bible once during my youth - and we were a pretty hardcore Catholic.
48
Oh, and by the way, That was a lovely post at 42, Kim. Especially the second paragraph.
49
Wow. Godgasm/hate-spasm @ 33/35. Yay for all the chimer-inners, especially Kim, and lol at my pathetic attempt to stimulate discussion @32.

Oh, and it should have been "knuckle-rapping handwriting instruction in elementary school," as in nuns. With rulers.
50
What I wonder about is the difference between the late thursday accepted and the early Friday accepted was 1,111. Even if a mysterious jump in accepted happened by rechecking the work of regular checkers how did they hit a non-random number like 1,111?
51
@42 - that had some really beautiful stuff in it. Thank you.
52
Thank you Kim. You aways stay calm and collected, and most of all loving, in your posts to Slog. I admire you greatly - for your eloquence, your calm, your generous love. You are truly what a Christian should be. Thank you for reminding us here on Slog that not all Christian are filled with hate and fear.
53
@42
Does God love George Sodini? Did He knit him together in his mother's womb, and know everyone of his days before they came to be. Does George Sodini please God, exactly as he is, for God knew what he was doing when he created him? Do you love George Sodini, exactly as he is?

God gives us agency to choose how we will behave.
He holds us accountable for the behavior choices we make.

Choice.
Accountability.
Responsibility.
They go together.

God loves all his children.
His love does not negate the consequences of unwise or evil choices they make, however.

Loving our fellowman does not require embracing or condoning poor choices they make.
We, as God, can love the sinner but reject the sin.
If we love our fellowman we will help them see that some choices are harmful to them and others; if we will love them enough to actually care, that is.
Friends don't let friends drive drunk.
Friends don't blithely let friends engage in a lot of other harmful behaviors that will have a negative impact on their lives.

Love is not blind.
Or stupid.
Or naive.

God gives us commandments to liberate us, not restrict us.
Obedience to God's will frees us from the chains and misery that always accompany poor choices and behaviors.

Helping our fellowman see that does not oppress them.
It gives them a key to open the doors of the prison than sin is.

God's LGBTQ children ARE loved.
He loves them so much he has shown them (and all of us) they things we must do, and not do, to be happy and find true joy and fulfillment in this life and the life to follow.
54
Maybe the Secretary of State will remove the names of Opposite Signers if they get a note from a doctor certifying they are mentally disadvantaged and not responsible for what they sign.
55
42 Bless your heart Kim. I married my husband in legal age. You know if my sins had their way perhaps I would be condoning the same things you do, but by His grace i have cling on to the lifesaver that is the Bible. I hold no claim on perfection because as you well know (if you are a christian) we're all imperfect creatures and it is only through accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour and following the words of our heavenly Father in the Bible that we can try to begin to exemplify God's perfection in our lives as testimony for others. When those who do not know him see the goodness the values in us it is not our human attributes they're seeing ('cause we always fall short) but the goodness of the One who created us all. For all the disorientation you cast on our fellow humans who frequent this blog, i'm telling you than when you're freed from the chains that are holding you captive now you will be an inspiring instrument of God just as Paul was after his conversion. Just like him you find yourself afflicted with blindness (in your spirit), pray Kim, try remembering the teachings from the Bible you learned before new age ideologies took over your heart. Just reach the Bible, whatever the situation he will work it out. You'll see how our Lord sends one of his servants to fill you with His Holy Spirit and cast away the things that don't belong in the beautiful temple of his that is your heart. The testimony you will give will cast light on many. I just pray that even if its only from afar word comes to me of how you've been freed by our Savior and of how you're proclaiming the good news found only in the scriptures. But even if I don't I know it will happen, you will become a great disciple and unlike now you will be preaching the true words of life that are found in the Bible. As your sister in Jesus Christ I have nothin but love for you, Be blessed. In God's Love.
56
@55: You were wrong before, Loveschild, when you gave birth out of wedlock as a younger-than-legal teenager, so it's altogether likely that you're wrong now.

Is your shame related to the age of or your relation relation to the father of your children?
57
Hey! Lay off the teen mothers. My cousin was a teen mother, and she graduated and went to college and everything.

Loveschild, you are really cool for having a child when you were a teenager. Lots of girls would just flush it. The guy that you are married to now is the father? Either way, you must have a strong marriage - some guys are such pigs about stuff like that and would consider a girl "used goods"
58
Samuel (and Loveschild),

There is no discussion we can have, we tried before don't you remember, Samuel? You accused me of making a golden calf, because we have denominational differences. You aren't as prideful about it, but your just like Loveschild, I'm bound to hell, because I and those I attend church with don't share your interpretation. There are many Christians and denominations that do not believe that being gay is a choice, and we also don't believe that it's a sin. Why? I'll paraphrase for you, I'm a Biology/Chemistry major and once was a Molecular Biologist.

The human body expresses biological sex in four different ways, the first being genetic. Genetic males carry an X and a Y chromosome, genetic females two X chromosomes. Intersex persons might have a single X chromosome (known as XO) or some combination of three or more X and Y chromosomes.

Second, being gonadal. Gonadal males possess testes, gonadal females possess ovaries; intersex persons might possess undescended testes or streak ovaries.

Third, by hormone production and hormone reception. Those persons who possess testosterone or DHT in the body are hormonal males. Estrogen and progesterone are found in hormonal females, and intersex persons might have levels of any of these hormones that are either high or low...or they might not have the receptors that allow the body to recognize the hormones that are present.

Fourth, being morphological features. Morphological sex is expressed by the presence, in males, of the Wolffian duct and a penis. Females will possess a Mullerian duct and a vagina. Intersex persons might possess both a Wolffian and a Mullerian duct or incomplete internal sexual organs--or none of the above--and an enlarged clitoris, a "micro-penis", or a shallow and fused vagina.

Now for gender perception. The gender of a person is perceived in two parts: Part one, which is derived from the perception of whether you appear to others to be male or female. Part two, gender identity, which is based on your own perception of yourself as male, female, neither, or both.

Sexuality, or sexual orientation, starts with an individual's gender identity, then proceeds to the gender of the individuals one finds themselves spontaneously attracted to.

For myself, and many other Christians, we made no decision to be straight. Perhaps, you and Loveschild did make a choice? We believe that our sexual orientations and our gender identities are God's gifts to us, and we extend that grace to God's LGBTQ children.

You both can't accept that we believe that Leviticus was instructions given to the Israelite people during a particular period of their history. You can't accept that we believe Paul is talking about pagan worship in Romans either, never mind that the word used for unnatural is the same one used when Paul writes about Christ's salvation being for both the gentile (the unnatural wild olive branch) and the Jew, or the history and archaeological proof we have to back our position. We believe that the Levitical covenant was laid to rest when Christ died, Christ is our High Priest now in the line of Melchizedek. We live under the new covenant, for Christ made the old covenant obsolete.

Of course God loved, Sodini. I loved him and prayed for God to have mercy on him. Unlike God's LGBTQ children, who don't have a choice about their sexual orientations, Sodini did have a choice to murder or not. It is easy to say, we love Sodini, but hate that he made the choice to murder three women and injure nine others. To say that you love God's LGBTQ children and hate their sexual orientation is not easy. As their sexual orientations aren't sins or choices they make. That's why the love part becomes lost. They hear that you hate their sexual orientation, part of themselves that they have no control over, and which defines them at their core. Simply put, they only hear that you hate them.

I'm not going to waste my time defending myself or my faith, to either of you. Both of you should keep in mind the words of Paul in Romans 14. "Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand." v 4., and "You, then, why do you judge your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgement seat." v. 10. I know who my High Priest is, and I have entrusted myself into his keeping. I only have to stand before him.

Commence with the golden calf and condemnation if you must. Or in Loveschilds, lastest slandering, I'm a satanist and a new age worshiper.
59
Samuel,

If you are a second Samuel, and not the one who accused me of making a golden calf and bowing to it, then I apologize for the confusion. I don't want to accuse you of something you are not guilty of, but the Internet makes it difficult to know the identity of blog commenters.
60
Jen, Baconcat, very bad homo, Rob!, this guy I know in Spokane, and Schweighsr,

Thank you all for your kindness.
61
Kim, you are being a little defensive.
I never suggested you were bound for hell.
The New Covenant did not abandon the moral code of the Old Testament, it strengthened it. Not only was murder wrong but anger as well. Not only adultery but lust is also condemned. Charitable acts, if done for appearance and not from the heart, also bring condemnation.
Christians were to be pure in heart as well as in action. In orientation and desire as well as in behavior.
Homosexual behavior is clearly condemned in the Old and New Testament. One is not at liberty to pick and choose what commandments one will obey, or rank them by how many times they are listed and decide- 'I don't have to obey this- it only gets mentioned seven times...'
I also have dual BS majors in Chemistry and Biology, and a doctorate in a health care field. I am unpersuaded by your biological explanation for homosexuality but also find it significant that you bend your interpretation of scripture to match your interpretation of biology. Scientific research produces a shifting and changing body of knowledge and one who bases their faith on it truly builds their house on the sand, and not on the rock of the Gospel. Not many years ago Science classed homosexuality as a mental disease. What will Science discover in a few decades hence? Will your translations and interpretations of the Bible be able to keep up?
We don't choose to be heterosexual because we (all) innately ARE heterosexual. That is how all members of our species reproduce. God expects us to channel and direct our reproductive desires and urges in ways that will produce joy and happiness, within the bounds of marriage; and not express them promiscuously in ways that produce heartache and misery.
Some may find it fairly easy to control anger, or gluttony, or envy; others may struggle mightily. Likewise some may find it relatively easy to live the moral code, others may find temptations to stray in various ways compelling. I may commit adultery with a woman, another may molest a child, another may commit homosexual acts- we all have strayed from what God has revealed to be the path to happiness.
Psalms 111:10 tells us that "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments" ('fear' being 'respect for', and 'obedience to')
We should trust that God loves us and wants us to be happy and has shown us the way to happiness thru the commandments. When we substitute our own interpretations and desires for His clear instruction we are on a path to disappointment and destruction.
Why would God instill homosexual desire in people and then condemn it? As I attempted to demonstrate, it is ludicrous to blame Sodoni's murderous desires and actions on God, and say that we must accept and embrace them. It is no less ludicrous to assert that God instills the desire to perform homosexual acts, and that we must accept such behavior as God's will.
Back to Biology; whole sound members of the human race are heterosexual creatures. The drive to reproduce is strong and compelling and necessary to the continuation of the species. It is true some people are born with defects; physical deformities, mental handicaps, hormonal aberrations that leave them unwhole or unsound. We recognize these as defects and challenges to be overcome. Likewise, physical, emotional or hormonal defects that interfere with the impetus to reproduce are deviancies from the whole sound specimen. Those so afflicted should be assisted in overcoming those challenges, when possible. Most who identify as homosexual are acting on impulses no more compelling than the tendency to gluttony in the obese or the surrender to anger in the domestic abuser. With guidance and support they could lead healthy lives. Declaring the abnormal to be normal does not make it so and is profoundly unhelpful and unfair. Weighing 400 pounds is not 'healthy', beating ones wife and children is not acceptable behavior and committing homosexual acts deviates from the innate reproductive drive of our species. Some, a small percentage, of those who identify as homosexual deal with more severe biological defects and present greater challenge.
Thank you for your response and comments. No golden calves tonight, please don't take my comments as condemnation for they are not meant as such.
62
I think the odds are still good. The Secretary of the State's Office are just tickling Gary Randall's ass with a little validation before the big smack down.
63
Samual, can you blame me for being a bit defensive with you? You were in my opinion nasty on previous threads. You accuse me of personally cherry picking scripture, but I don't. The issue between us is that you are convinced that your interpretation of the Bible is correct, and many of us disagree with you. So, of course your prejudices lead you to believe that you position is correct, and thus, that I bend my interpretation of scripture to match my interpretation of biology. And, I can say the same of you. Your interpretation of the scriptures forms your interpretation of biology, because prejudices are far reaching. Believe me, we both suffer from them.

Many of us do not share your interpretation of the Bible. You seem to easily accept that the humans that translated it into English had no bias and therefore were incapable of error. We don't have the same confidence, all though you have accused me of massaging the Greek and Hebrew to match my point of you, the bottom line is there are issues with the English translation, and not just with verses having to do with sexual behaviors.

In regard to Leviticus. Many, including me, regard "abomination," "enormous sin", etc. as particularly poor translations of the original Hebrew word which really means "ritually unclean" within an ancient Israelite era. The Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures (circa 3rd century BCE) translated "to'ebah " into Greek as "bdelygma," which meant ritual impurity. The writer of Leviticus had a Hebrew word for moral violation, sin and it is the word "zimah". "Zimah" is not the word found in the Torah, nor is it's Greek equivalent used.

In total there are 613 Mosaic laws found in Leviticus. Today Christians are free to wear tattoos, eat shrimp, pork or rare meat, wear polyester-cotton blends, seed their lawns with a grass mixture, and get their hair cut. But most conservative Christians consider homosexual behavior, and sometimes merely having a homosexual orientation as a moral violation or sin. That means modern Christians are now free to ignore 611 of the Mosaic laws.

This of course leads many of us to wonder, why some Christians cling to the idea that homosexuality is "zimah" despite the fact that the writer didn't choose to use the word.

Using an Protestant English translation of the Bible, conservative Christians believe that the validity of the two anti-homosexual passages in Leviticus has been verified by passages in Paul's Epistles. The NIV and KJV of the Bible clearly condemn homosexual behavior at 1 Corinthians 6:9 and Romans 1:28 in the Christian Scriptures. These translations generally interpret the Greek words "malakoi" and "arsenokoitai" as referring to homosexuals.

But the Greeks had a word that better conveyed homosexuality. If Paul had truly intended to condemn homosexuality it makes sense that he would have chosen the appropriate word. He would have used the Greek word "paiderasste." That was the standard term at the time for male homosexuals. Therefore, it is possible to conclude that Paul probably meant something different from persons who engaged in male-male adult sexual behavior. Therefore, there is an excellent chance that the New Testament does not support the Old on the issue of homosexuality.

Therefore, we come to the conclusion that God isn't condemning homosexuality as a moral violation, a sin. We aren't trying to cherry pick, we are trying to get to the heart of God's word. We fear the Lord, and want to make sure that we are understanding his commandments, and that we are not putting any obstacles in front of his children.

Tomorrow morning my entire family will do what we do every Sunday. We will attend church. We will sing hymns and kneel in prayer. We will open our Bibles (NIV) and continue our expository study through God's word. We will join together in Holy Communion. We will worship God with our songs of praise, our prayers, and our offerings. Seeking the will of God through his Holy Spirit. We likely don't sound that different from your worship experience. Except your utterly convinced that your interpretation is correct, and we are willing to look beyond the English translation. Still, both of us with our prejudices are seeking to become just like Christ, the only God our Savior.

Perhaps, if we both weren't so prejudiced about our opinions, we could have discussed this, but we can't. You're convinced that I'm cherry picking and massaging the Greek and Hebrew to conform to my prejudices. And, I'm pretty convinced that you lack the humility, to acknowledge that your prejudices towards the translation you embrace may be translated incorrectly. And, thus, you are putting obstacles in front of God's LGBTQ children that God doesn't desire. Both of us will continue in prayer, reading the Bible, attending our individual churches and relying on the Holy Spirit. You believe that the Holy Spirit is telling you that I'm misguided, torturing the word of God, and I believe the Holy Spirit is telling me that your being a religious bully. WE must agree to disagree, and accept that we are each guilty of our own prejudices and trust the Lord to guide us into his truth according to his will. And, while I seek Him, I will refrain from voting for any form of discrimination against his children, and I will seek their full equality. For, that is what the Holy Spirit is leading me to do. You of course, will follow where you believe the Holy Spirit and your conscience is leading you.

Peace.

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I hope you are correct, Sall.
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63
Have a good evening, Kim.
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@42 - Way way late to the party, but Kim, wow... thank you for all your words. It amazes and delights me that someone like you is fighting for my rights. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
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Kim on 58 you state that "I'm a Biology/Chemistry major and once was a Molecular Biologist.", Can you please tell me what your work entails? I mean in the real world, who would need a Molecular Biologist and for what type of work?
68

I was in molecular biology and microbiology at the Keck School of Medicine at the University of Southern California (USC School of Medicine). I was a student, deciding if I wanted to be a MD or a MD/PhD. In particular we were studying the, translation of tat, rev, and nef genes on HIV I genome. Molecular biology overlaps biology, chemistry, genetics and biochemistry in order to understand the interactions between the various systems of a cell, which includes the interactions between DNA, RNA and protein biosynthesis (or translation) as well as learning how these interactions are regulated. In the real world we are the ones who help create vaccines, cures for cancer, etc. Microbiology involves the study of unicellular organisms, our lab worked with viruses and bacteria. HIV being the point of focus, and understanding how HIV survives is necessary to hopefully develop the means of controlling it, and someday be able to vaccinate against it. It was fascinating work, and an intense educational experience.

I hope that helps.
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Donolectic @ 67,

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement. No need to thank me, we are neighbors.
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rewind:

Donolectic @ 66
71
68
if faggots quit spewing the AIDS virus up each others' asses we might have a chance to control it
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Poor, poor pitiful coward @ 71. You're just afraid some big, bad homo is going to spew it up YOUR ass next time you're locked down.
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68 So the chemistry major you opted for is only a branch of molecular biology right? If I'm correct then what would be the branch that specializes in things like cloning sheep and such?

And how long did it take you to major in biology chemistry? and how long would it take to major in the other branch?

I'm trying to learn more from your side.

You know, I admire that you were researching for possible cures for HIV. You shouldn't have stopped.
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Matt!
Brave Matt!! (from Denver, and Seattle, too, even!!)
You are our Hero, Brave Matt!!!
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I did both biology and chemistry as an undergraduate. The university I went to didn't offer a molecular biology major or even a microbiology major.

I did use expressive cloning, which is a basic techniques of molecular biology to study protein function. The DNA coding for a protein of interest was cloned (using PCR and/or restriction enzymes) into a plasmid (known as an expression vector). The plasmid had a promoter elements to drive production of the protein. Then, This plasmid was inserted into either bacterial or animal cells/eukaryotic cells, it depended because our lab was studying more than HIV 1. I used both bacteria and animal cells. Introducing DNA into bacterial cells can be done by transformation (via uptake of naked DNA), conjugation (via cell-cell contact) or by transduction (via viral vector). Introducing the DNA into the animal cells, was done by transfection. There are different techniques for transfection techniques, such as calcium phosphate transfection (I'm most familiar with this form) ,electroporation, micro-injection and liposome transfection. DNA can also be introduced into animal cells using viruses or bacteria as carriers. The plasmid may be integrated into the genome, resulting in a stable transfection, or may remain independent of the genome, called transient transfection. Once inside the cell the protein of interest can be produced.

I did biology and chemistry at the same time, and graduated in four years. Biology and chemistry required that I studied basic biology, zoology, botany, microbiology, mycology, hematology, marine biology, bacteriology, embryology, virology, parasitology, inorganic chemistry, organic chemistry, quantitative chemistry, physics, etc. It wasn't all science though, I had to also have a liberal arts education in order to graduate, and also had to live abroad for a period.

I stopped, because I discovered that although I loved the science, I didn't love the 60+ hours a week and exposing my unborn child to known carcinogens and radiation. I have multiple small pox vaccinations, as small pox was a vector we used, not something you want to keep exposing your unborn to. I realized while I was across the street working in County USC's Emergency Department (part of my education, done while working in the lab --- I didn't sleep much!), that holding the hand of the hurting and listening to their stories was how I was wired. County is where the homeless, uninsured, and gang related trauma are brought, there is also a jail on sight. I could handle the blood, and the morgue, but it was the pain in peoples eyes from their suffering that kept me up at night. Hence, the eventual move into Domestic Violence counseling, through a Christian organization. God seems to have designed me to care about people's hearts and to love them exactly as I find them. So, in a sense I'm still in the business of healing, just not physical wounds and diseases. I still do the science, although on a more simplified level, I voluntarily teach general science and math to ELL students at a local Title 1 school. Help middle school and high school students run bacteriology and chemistry experiments.

I hope that helps.

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Loveschild,

I'm not sure I made it clear, chemistry is a study of its own, as is molecular biology, but there is overlap between the two. I had to have an understanding of biology, chemistry, genetics and biochemistry, and thus classes and exams in those subjects, but I didn't have to major in each individually. I hope that's clearer than what I wrote before.
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76 Sorta of.

You're really a chemist and not a molecular biologist even tho you have some knowledge on some of the other studies.

So if I'm understanding you correctly a molecular biologist has to know more than say a chemist like you right? A molecular biologist has to know more than a geneticist and biochemist also, correct?
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Good call in your decision to not expose your child to those dangerous agents. Shows good judgement on your part 'cause the caring starts with one's children and family first and foremost.
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I once was a molecular biologist with an undergraduate degree in biology/chemistry. I used my degree to get into the field of molecular biology. Then my education focused on molecular biology. I say once, because I'm not in the field anymore.

I don't think you can say that one field of science has to know more than another, or does know more. Each field is different, and requires a large volume of study. Within the sciences there is huge overlap. For example, I had to understand genetics and therefore I took classes in genetics, to do molecular biology, but I do not know more than a geneticist does about genetics. Another example, I had to study organic chemistry to earn the chemistry part of my degree, but our fellow SLOG poster Former Tri-State is an Organic Chemist, and thus Former Tri-State knows more about organic chemistry than I do. Each field in science is like a pyramid, we have a large wide base (that is where our general science study is), that narrows to a specific field of study, and further specifies to the individual projects we are researching. Dr. Golob, Stranger Staff, and I both have an understanding of embryology, my understanding is second layer of the pyramid it was part of my undergraduate study, and Dr. Golob's understanding is at the peak of the pyramid(http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…).

I hope the examples make it clearer.
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They do, thank you Kim. I'm going to instruct myself more in the subject in my free time. I've always been a sorta closeted nerd LOL. I find the whole molecular-genetics subject intriguing especially for the potential it has in helping the lives of those who are suffering from a physical or mental ailment. For example, the possibility of finding out genes that make some more predisposed to certain afflictions and the chance of inoculating individuals before such predispositions start to kick in is something very promising for the future. There so many people whose life would be bettered,relieved from their anxieties by proper ethical scientific research, I mean the possibilities are endless so long as clear moral guidelines are followed. It almost makes me wish I could be involved in such fields of research, it really does.
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I was almost respecting LC's curiosity for a moment there. It took all day to get to her sucker punch.

We get it, LC. You want to play God, and rid the world of faggots. Ha ha. One wonders why your god didn't do that himself. Oh right, it's 'cause HE DOESN'T FUCKING EXIST.

Blah, I'm all angry now.
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That's what it sounds like, isn't i? Loveschild wants to identify the genetic component causing the "affliction" of homosexuality, and, uh, "inoculating" them (sterilizing, perhaps)? That's really damaged.
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@ Fnarf, Misha: I'm with George Carlin: the 11th commandment should be, "Thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself."
Religious proselytizers annoy me no end. Particularly if their contribution to a debate is "Jesus loves you, but only if you agree with me".
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Hmm... can we identify, isolate and eradicate the ignorant bigot gene? If LC wants to be involved in research, I bet she could get in on a trial program somewhere...
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Loveschild, not in a million years will you develop a vaccine for homosexuality.

From what you've displayed here, you don't have the capacity for critical reason one would need to do something such as this.