Ugh, here you go with your fucking "science" and goddamned "statistics" again, Dr. Golob.

You're arguing with people who think we should teach "creationism" as a primary science and folks who think the answer to global warming is "FUCK YOU, AL GORE."

I don't think it's as hopeless as all that. We rarely change anything in a single huge, sweeping gesture in this country. What I hope this bill will represent is the start of a series of incremental measures that gradually move us towards a better system. The idea of completely changing something so vital all at once understandably scares people. Politically it's much easier to get there with a bunch of small steps than with one giant leap.

Incidentally, the reason conservatives oppose this rather mild heath care bill so heavily is exactly that -- they fear it's the camel's nose under the tent and will eventually lead to full-on socialized single-payer medicine.

So vets follow directions better (lifestyle changes for diabetes) and are more likely to allow a doctor to probe their anus (checkups for cancer). This makes VA hospitals better?

And don't forget Medicare. I don't have treatment stats here on in/out of system, but I know that senior citizens would fight (slowly) to the death attempts to reduce the system. I mean, geesus, Bush had to build a new, unfunded, anti-small-government, crazy-ass entitlement system around prescription drugs that probably benefited his corporate masters more than those covered by it -- but he couldn't reduce its scale or impact. (Ditto Social Security.)

I have marvelous health insurance and health care, and it eats a huge hunk of my earnings. I would love to pieces a new system that would encompass everyone and either stall or reduce the cost of getting good care.

That's actually the joke here. Comprehensive reform, even with private insurers in the mix, and universal coverage would mean a radical shift in where dollars went, and would likely dramatically change the cost structure without making hospitals and doctors weep at low profit margins. So much care is compensated out of insured health premiums, and municipal, state, and federal subsidies--and so many people go bankrupt and never pay the high bills presented to them--that anything that changes that profoundly shifts the piles of money all around.

Why wouldn't state or local single payer health care work? Do we really have to wait for South Carolina and the rest of the country to become more progressive than we are now?

A modest proposal: allow insurance companies to treat obesity as a pre-existing condition. Then see how the dixiecrats and their plump constituency feel about laissez faire and private insurance.

The VA doesnt have a limit on patient expenses no cap fix them

The current health bill has limits on everything and a yearly cap. (which is low)

You dont mind them having a direct line to all your financial accounts??

Have you guys even read the bill

its available on line: (check it out and see if you feel the same way)
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/…

@7: You haven't read the bill yourself. :)

The bill's implied limits are based on an implicit drop in cost of care to be more in line with the first world standard and is entirely derived from a fair cost for quality and a fair cost for service. In short, it's making it more difficult to gouge consumers for arbitrary things like clamps that never get unsealed from their sterile packaging while forcing a fair market cost for services rendered rather than a profit-derived cost.

Which I'm pretty sure they've been talking about doing since the 90s. SURPRISE!

I liked seeing Jon Stewart needle Bill Kristol on this very fact just last week. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sa69puS7J… Good times.

@6 - unless you happen to be rich, they already do at least as far as buying your own health insurance goes. If your BMI is under 25, you're a healthy normal individual who gets to pay maybe $100 a month for health insurance. If your BMI is 25 or over, you're a fat glutton who is going to die any day now and probably lives on a diet of doughnuts created from puppies and pizza made with ground up babies or something.

What does that translate to in real actual individual numbers? Sometimes as little as one tenth of a pound... thats what it takes to go from "healthy and normal" to "about to die of FATZ" -- a 5'10" person weighing 174.9lbs is in the "healthy" group, while someone the same height who neglected to take a shit before their official health insurance weigh in came in at 175lbs... and therefore, they're "omg overweight!" and will die soon, probably by choking on the baby flavored doughnuts they eat by the truckload.

I go to the VA and I have for many years. I love the government run health care I get there. They have end of life documents from me as well. The fear mongering and histeria being run by the right wing and insurance company vultures is disgraceful, immoral and does nothing to solve the problem, which is exactly what they want. And shows the lie that the right is pro-life. It's also racist. The old, white southerners that are orchestrating much of this don't want black people insured and that's what they think is behind Obama's solutions.

Vince@11 nails it - it's the haves vs the not-haves. As usual. Why all the subsidized Brownshirts and Big Lies? You don't need deep analysis... this is affecting a cash flow amounting to hundreds of billions. The mesh of middlemen creeps feeding off the current mess will do ANYTHING to keep the status quo. As current events show so clearly. Follow the Money.

i like #6's point.

i just read an anecdote on Andrew Sullivan's blog that told a story of one mother's experience getting coverage for a birth. the insurance company tried to deny one of her claims because the FETUS had a "preexisting condition." yeah. so, obesity should be np.

The entire debate is dishonest. Congress is bought and paid for by big pharma and insurance.

This is a huge scam. Here are some charts comparing aspects of what we pay and what we get to some other countries:

http://www.tips-q.com/1228671-health-car…

@12 You are a brain dead dolt. Nobody said " I hate..." anything. Sure, the behavior of the right wing racists is disgusting and ruinous for this country. Only an addled pated fool and other racists would see it any differently.

After all is said and done we need to remember that real people in our nation are suffering everyday they go out without a real health care reform in which every american citizen is covered.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNHNCScYp…

Why should it be that in the world's most wealthiest nation it's citizens should have to find themselves begging for adequate health care? It's really unconscionable.

Well skinflint troll, I guess the only solution to the Medicaid/Medicare cost expansion is to exterminate all senior citizens. Which I am for, BTW.

Wouldn't be better to come out and say yes socialism works, regarding single payer health care systems?

Honest, true, etc.

Obama gave a good explanation when asked why he isn't for single payer now when previously he said he was, he said it's too jolting to shift from employer based ot single payer...in the interim, people are without health care.

good answer as it satisfied the questioner while leaving door open to single payer later! He also said insurers should be allowed to compete fairly, which I doubt, as I distrust them, but maybe this is politique...in 4 years he can say we tried to let them compete and they were still rapscallions so let's do away with them.

Unfortunately, there are many, many more than "10,000 insurance men" standing against reform. I know lots of people who, though generally liberal in their belief systems, are terrified of any changes to their current, employer-based insurance. People with kids are particularly susceptible to the fear machine being propagated by the right.

Birthers and other unpatriotic lying neocon scum.

Can't live with em ....

Can't reload fast enough to get rid of em ...

I hate these nazis.

All true, except for this part: It is plainly obvious to anyone with an IQ over 8 that our system could not possibly be worse.

Oh, it can be worse. And without significant reforms (as seems highly likely right now), it will definitely get worse.

We are all looking for reform.. The reform we need is to reform our government, make it smaller, not larger. But that will not happen until we have viable 3rd party canidates and ideas. But those in power Democrats and Republicans will not let that happen. They are the problem...

The VA effiecient?? Don't know what VA some of you have been to. I have been seen by the VA for several issues over the last 10 years, and they, like every other government agency are far from efficient. There are some good doctors there for a while.. However believe me the good ones leave, many because of the buraucracy required to opperate in this system. I have had two surgeries at the VA. these were very "BASIC" procedures. Both of which were botched and I am told heres a few hundred dollars a month to deal with your pain, we broke you but can't reverse it.. OOPS... I could talk for hours about the VA.. there are many of us veterans that would agree..If the VA is the model they plan to use for our new Socialized healthcare system... RUNNNNN..

The politicians tout these ficticous 'UNISURED" numbers out there to scare everyone. Yet that number changes depending on which group is getting the speach on which day. Those delivering the message do not even believe they are accurate.

Believe me I think I pay too much for my health care coverage, and I believe all American Citizens should have access to health care. Reality is there are NO LEGAL citizens who are without healthcare. Anyone low income, or elderly can show up to a local health clinic and get free health care. Yes they have to wait in line, yes it may be embarrasing Yes it may not be the best health care....but wait a minute,, who is managing that...hmmmmm ???

The majority of the "UNINSURED" adults they are uninsured by choice and they are negleting their children in the process. Life is about choices and consiquenses. Make bad choices live with the consequences and that goes for health care also. Children are a diffrent story altogether, they are no to blame its again their parents.

Face it folks, like it or not we have the best medical care and facilities in the world.. Like everthing there is a cost to be the best. I am willing to "NUT UP" and pay the cost so that I am not getting my liver transplants in India... If more people would accept some responsibility and quit looking for a handout this country would be in a lot beter shape.

The reform we need is to change the Internet to IPv6 and not tell the unpatriotic anti-American Birther Tin Foil Brigade about it.

And then go metric and give all directions in km instead of miles, so they can't find the town hall meetings.

Now that would be fun!

Mr. Golob wrote:

>>>If you've served in the military, you can go to the VA.<<<

Ehhhhh..... yes and no...

http://www.va.gov/healtheligibility/elig…

There's an 8-level totem pole, to speak. Just this summer, the bottom rung (#8) has had its eligibility standards loosened up. Different hospitals may have different amounts of slack and budget to cope with demand.

Some vets get completely free care, others pay co-payments, but it's still a great deal. As of the late 90's or so, ZILLIONS of vets are getting many (but not necess. all) of their Rx drugs through VA pharamacies at very fair rate.

That being said, IMHO, and I'm no VA-VHA expert, but it seems like Uncle Sam/Congress decided to use VA hospitals as a pressure relief valve on our health insurance crisis starting back in the 90's, when they first allowed lots more vets into the system. Lore I've heard from old timers has it that there was a long period of time where VA hospitals focused the bulk of their care on veterans with service-related injuries/wounds, and few others could get in the door. That VA-VHA has been used as a pressure relief valve for working folks who happen to be veterans -- and a bunch of them red staters in the voting booth -- is an irony to ponder.

Also, IIRC, vets who have health insurance policies, VA is billing those companies for reimbursement. And note that while lots of vets go to VA hospitals and clinics for lots of care, they may not be able to get all of their care from the VA. Some things are expensive/difficult, or a vet may live too far from a VA hospita when elderly or terminal, and goes to a closer private hospital. Which the VA likely isn't reimbursing for. So this affects some of the cost/patient statistics you might be seeing. Still, recent reports (involving studies and polling) indicate lots of vets are satisfied lately.

A single pay system would optimize the statistical analysis for prediction and research. The medical science would improve and thus drive down costs and make it easier to spot environmental health costs. This would make it easier to make sure companies report the true cost of doing business including health and environmental effects.

"If it's within five years of your last active duty service, or you have injuries related to your service, you can go and get healthcare pretty much for free"

Nothing is free asshole. These brave souls paid for their coverage with their service to our country. This is one group that I am happy tax dollars go to cover. Who in the hell do you think you are comparing yourself or any citizen to one of them. They are soldiers, practically every step they take is ordered. Citizens should not be compared to soldiers. If a citizen wants health care they should get up off their "free to do whatever they please" lazy ass and earn the money to pay for it.

The reason this will kill America is because of increased, oppressive taxation. How do you pay for it? Perhaps the Money Fairy will come down and leave us a couple trillion. Or Maybe Obama will print it...what a novel idea!

The American Dream, the one that every citizen has the right to, at least for now, is to enjoy the fruits of our own labor and for everyone else (especially government) to leave us the hell alone. I am willing to "rant and rave" to preserve that for my children. If you aren't...get the hell out! If you think Europeans have such a great health care system...move there!

Government has it's place, secure our borders (not doing a very good job there), build a strong defense (libs cry for defense spending cuts), pass non oppressive, logical laws that support commerce and trade, not suppress it. And this only so we can have jobs. Most importantly, to be kept on a short leash, governed by "We the People" (remember that phrase from second grade? Yes second graders get it!)

I know you all aren't stupid. You are just preprogramed for you own destruction. I digress, this capitalist pig is here to help you: Hit yourselves in the head several times in an effort to snap out of it. Do this twice daily until you wise up...or die. Repeat. Either way the overall intelligence quotient of the nation will increase. Tell your friends and family.

I have to say to all the comments about VA benefits and Privet and colon cancer. My Aunt had symptoms in her 30s but insurance did not cover exams at that age which lead the doctor to assume that it was just a diet issue. 8 years later when insurance would cover a colonoscopy she did it just to make sure and she had cancer. She is still fighting with 3 rounds of chemo and and many surgeries on her liver and lungs. if insurance would take symptoms seriously and not financially she would have caught the cancer stage 1 and the battle would not be where it is today she would have been in full remission. what cost more a colonoscopy then or chemo and surgery later. My Aunt had top of the line private insurance.

Can we reopen the discussion about how great the Veteran's Administration Heath Care is? Do you still want the U.S. to have a heath system as good as the VA?