They Don't Just Hate Fags

Comments

1
Religious people are totally racist.
In fact, they were ranting and blaming Blacks for the passage of Prop 8 just a few months ago.
2
Thank god this wasn't broadcast on televised news. The collective "DUH" that would've been shouted by everyone watching could've destroyed the Earth's crust.
3
I'll bet that last sentence could have also read something like: "the more devout the community, the smaller the percentage of minorities in the community". Or, "the more devout the community, the smaller the percentage of people who have ever left their hometown".

I'm saying I don't think religion is the primary factor for creating racism in these communities. If the study showed that religion TEACHES racism, that would be something different. This is more because they live sheltered lives where they are raised as ignoramuses.
4
Religion, all too often, teaches tolerance with the caveat that you only have to tolerate people who already agree with you. Institutional religion then provides cover for people who don't love their neighbors.
Just like certain trolls in SLOG comments who offer "support" for marriage equality - "as long as you faggots stop asking for marriage."
Self righteous bigotry neatly packaged as "Christian Love" and "tolerance."
Voila!
5
I for one cannot WAIT to get Loveschild's slant on this. LC? Please please please weigh in...
6
@3 makes an good point.

Correlation, sure, but not necessarily causation.
7
4
The good liberal secular humanists on Slog, in contrast, are sooo welcoming and accepting of ideas different from their own....
8
Religion causes brain damage. That should be obvious (see @ 1).
9
@7 Wow, you really put me in my place. I have to go lick my massive wounds from that scathing take - down.
10
The worst offenders will see this sort of thing as further persecution for being Followers of the One True Way. For the truly crazy rapture-ready crowd, the only form of discrimination that matters is the kind that they imagine themselves to be victims of every time somebody criticizes them or expresses a contrary opinion.

This study might as well say "dogmatic people more likely to be dogmatic" or "stupid people more likely to be wrong."
11
No kidding about the racism, not to mention anti-Semitism. I'm off to counter-protest the Westboro Baptist Church at my local Hillel center in half an hour. I'll tell them that the fags say hi.
12
@7....yeah, they won't accept blacks, atheists, or gays, and we won't accept bigotry, denial of global warming, or the idea that the poor shouldn't have access to health care. That's SO the same thing.
13
I can remember my aunt, who was a member of a Southern Baptist church in Southern Illinois, talking about how they really didn't want "Negroes" to attend--she said they didn't have anything against them, but they really didn't belong in a "white" church and, after all, they had their own churches. Even as a kid I was shocked at the un-Christian like attitude.
14
The Founding Fathers really screwed up.
Instead of Freedom of Religion they should have banned religion.
15
dr king used to say that the most segregated time in america was sunday mornings when people went to church.
16
yeah. We are so openminded. And tolerant. Anyone who disagrees with us is evil and doesn't deserve to have their views considered. They really don't deserve to live but we are too openminded and tolerant for our own good so we let them. Live.
17
Not necessarily racist per se, but more like a general holier-than-thou mentality.
18
Good Morning Dan,
That report elicits a yawn. I remain dubious of its conclusions. One can find not a few intolerant atheists/agnostics. Up until 1974 I believe, the American Psychological Association hardly a religious professional organization considered homosexuality a behavioral disorder. And up until recently (past 15-20 years?), I found the American media (which is/was supposed to be "balanced" and "free of religious constraints") far more intolerant of gay rights, issues etc. (Gay men and women were stereotyped and marginalized in film and TV). There's been a tectonic switch from the 60s (Especially since the Stonewall incident in 1969).

Look, this isn't a defense of religion or religious bigotry. Sure, religions dictate certain terms/prejudices. That's the point. I know other religions and atheists/agnostics don't like it. But, the American civil rights movement certainly wouldn't have been as effective without a religious component (the Southern Christian Leadership Conference?). Ministers, priests and rabbis all particiapted in the "struggle". MLK himself was an ordained Baptist minister. Yes, I concede that the Gay Rights Movement is a different "ball of wax" for religious people and poses a different standard. But, religious people certainly paid their dues for basic civil rights on behalf of African Americans and others.
20
It's tribalism, pure and simple. Religion gives people the opportunity to feel superior to anyone who's different.
21
@ 11 - OMG the Westboro Whackos came to my area to protest um, apparently New Jersey and possibly the fact that Jersey has a lot of Jewish people - though nobody was really sure what their message was. I heard that they read the definition of New Jersey in the Urban Dictionary and decided it was more godless than most states, though I could be wrong... They chose to do their protesting in front of a wealthy public high school chock full of overachieving students. The bewilderment could be felt for miles. ESPECIALLY since the state legislature was debating gay marriage 30 minutes to the north. Apparently they were too scared of Trenton to actually go to the logical (for them) location and chose to stick to the burbs and scream nasty messages at children with high SAT scores.
22
I think conservatism stems from a rigid and brittle belief system. And, can often manifest itself as intolerance, gender inequality, self-righteousness, homophobia, xenophobia, lack of intellectual honesty, and in some instances an advocacy of violence, but not always. The rigidity that an individual or collective group can develop into a defense mechanism that allows them to deny counter-evidence, via paying selective attention to contravening information, selective interpretation to fit preconceived ideas, selective acceptance of evidence that support already existing beliefs, and by discrediting sources which fail to support the belief system. Facts that support the rigidity are assimilated, and those that don't are ignored. "Protecting" ones belief system is important, because of the emotional and financial investment, not to mention cultural and familial traditions. With regard to religious conservatism there is also a deep love for religious traditions, shared values, and lifestyle, because religion meets peoples social, intellectual, and emotional needs. Religion also provides meaning, purpose, guidance, the need for vindication, and comfort in the face of adversity and tragedy for many. Which is why we see church attendance swell as an aftereffect of tragedy, such as terrorism or natural disaster. Rigid conservatism within religion can also provide a clear sense of rules and expectations, a "12 step" for life in a neat and tidy box, which is a source of comfort to many, especially those who find themselves in frightening circumstances.

So, I don't know if it can be argued that religion teaches subjects such as racism or homophobia as such. It is better to argue that religious conservatism teaches conformity, which can manifest itself as fear for what fails to conform. Just my thoughts on the subject, as someone who spent over a decade in a conservative evangelical church.

Some may find "The Tenacity of Unreasonable Beliefs" by Solomon Schimmel, an interesting read on the subject.
23
12
yeah.
That's silly.
Everyone knows we liberals are Followers of the One True Way.
They are not.
24
I was raised in the Baptist church. We went to a church with at least 200 members, and 199 of them were white. There was one Mexican.

One of the young white women in the church started dating a Black man, and brought him to church one day. You'd think it was the biggest scandal of all time. Everyone was perfectly nice to his face, but behind his back was another story.

I was about 13 or 14 and that's when i realized that "church people" are not at all the good Christians they pretend to be.
25
24
how many black homos do you know?
26
@19: I finally clicked on that link and read that "derailing for dummies" site. I was disappointed that it seemed to have nothing to do with pointing out true logical fallacies and everything to do with providing exactly the sort of rote non-arguments that it pretends to be against. It's sort of like "never type out a response again, just insert a handy html link and start feeling smug right away!"

I can't see how that will ever convince anybody of anything, but feel free which one of those derailing tactics I'm using by pointing that out.
27
Christ and his disciples were nice white people who just happened to own some nice vacation property over there in that troublesome area. There not from Galilee, Jerusalem or wherever. They're white! WHITE LIKE MEEEEE!!!!! The Mormons even wrote a book to explain it all spheshul like for me so I could feel better!!!
28
Well big fucking duh. When you're arrogant enough to think that you've been specially "chosen" by your imaginary god, by virtue of being a member of the only religion that is somehow "right," it's hardly a big leap to believe that your skin colour sets you apart and above as well, and ESPECIALLY when your holy book condones and even promotes the virtue of enslaving people of ethnicities different from your own:

You may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
29
@26: I like how your response to someone calling you rhetorded is to make observations that are so oblivious that you sound like a failed attempt at passing the Turing test.
30
@25, Quite a few, actually. What was your point?
31
@7

FTW. Ain't it the truth.

@12

Nice try but FAIL.
32
Since the beginning the Word of God has been clear:

Genesis 1:26-27:
"Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."


The illness of racism can only be kept in the hearts and minds of those who have turned their back on God and give themselves to the vanities and the passions of the flesh in this world.

Acts 10:34-35 :
"God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right."


No distinction whatsoever.

Galatians 3:28-29 :
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."


The same people who denounce God, the same people who place passions before all else, those who are neither hot or cold, the same ones who see some people as mere carnal fires burning in lust and not for the magnificent creation of our Heavenly Father that they are, those are the same who entertain racist thoughts. Racism is incompatible with God and his Church, but like a virus enters the human body, racism can afflict the organs of a congregation (those who make up the body of Christ) if the members give into the outside world and it's ruler.
33
Listen up, you fucking nitwit, Loveschild. The 8 1/2 year relationship I have with my partner is not "mere carnal fires burning in lust and not for the magnificent creation of our Heavenly Father...." as you so stupidly put it. Our relationship is built on trust, respect, friendship and commitment, and honestly, after 8 1/2 years, the so called "carnal fires" aren't anything different then those that convinced you to bed your husband.

I'm damn sick and tired of you painting my relationship as evil. We own our home, and we own a rental property. We pay taxes that send your fucking kids to school. That's right. YOUR fucking kids. We take care of our straight neighbor's pets when they are on vacation, and we hold BBQ's with them, in the summer. We work, pay our taxes and bills and we do EVERYTHING you do, with the exception of who we love.

So seriously, get the fuck bent, already.
34
Yep, those verses are there, Loveschild.

Curious as to what you do with the verses where slavery is promoted as a tradition that G-d sanctioned, and at times mandated, the enslavement of some humans. You can't make Leviticus 25:44-46 disappear. You can't erase 1 Corinthians 7:20-24, I Timothy 6:1-2, Ephesians 6:5-9, etc. they exist. You can argue that they call for "ethical" treatment of slaves, but they don't call for the termination of slavery. And, they certainly don't condemn slavery. You can argue that G-d considers it unethical today, and that we as a nation are right to do away with it, but to do so you must deny or ignore those verses. If you insist that slavery was not promoted in the Bible then you have joined the tradition of "apologetics", you are seeking to "justify the ways of G-d to men" or to rationalize that that the biblical and rabbinic laws of slavery you read in your Bible where "humane", that slavery was a benefit to the slave in ancient Israel. Or, you may just be choosing to cherry pick over those passages, and to consider them as sub-Christ ancient traditions that were part of a now outmoded world view, and only belong in the context of ancient Israel society, a culture that has long since passed away. But, you don't get to claim that ALL scripture is G-d breathed and must be obeyed to the letter since you don't live by the letter. Both you and I are free of the slavery that held our ancestors ... Would you like to return to it? I don't care to.
35
Kim -

Have I told you lately that I love you?
36
Laurlgardner,

You are very kind. I would not be able to clearly vocalize my struggles without the works of some gifted writers and scholars. I am indebted to the works of Marcus Borg, Dominic Crossan, Solomon Schimmel, Christof Kock, (and my friend Steven, who helped to push me out of my comfort zone and protective layer of wishful Biblical interpretation), their transparency and scholarship has impacted me greatly.

Have a great day.
37
@ 33 Love you Frau Blucher!

Loveschild's "mere carnal desires" thing is hilarious. Sounds like she hasn't been laid in quite some time. Too much bible, not enough monkey business.

She needs to dust the cobwebs off her diaphragm and find a little lovin.' I don't mean this as a joke. People who are clinically stingy with their compassion need more love.
38
Kim- We're so fortunate to have you in the slog community.

I've read Borg, Crossan and Schimmel, but never heard of Kock. What should I be looking for? What is his main topic/stance?
39
Canadian Nurse,

Christof Koch is/was at CalTech and I had the good fortune to read his personal essay on religion and science, sent to me from the friend I mentioned above and with whom I have lost touch with. The essay can not be cited without Mr. Koch's personal permission and I don't know where you would obtain a copy of it. Mr. Koch's essay was meaningful to me, because as a scientist by education and training, I have struggled to resolve the conflict that exists for me between religion and science, that I happen to share with Mr. Koch, and between both conflicting scripture within the Bible and conflicting interpretation of scripture embraced by individuals and denominations.

Sorry, I don't think that I am much help.
40
Sorry for the typo @ 36.

Koch not Kock. It is correct @ 39.

I think I need some tea.
41
@ Kim et all:

Cross is amazing!! Number 1 source for my junior thesis on the historiography of Christ. woo
42
@29: I wasn't the original person you posted that brilliantly-thought out html link to respond to. I'm a different person who would like to agree with you, but can't because that page, which you link to frequently, is full of terrible arguments.

Also, you misspelled retarded.
43
@29 - Don't you hate when the "obvious" flies right over the heads of some people (such as #42)?

44
Jason @ #37 - I agree with you.

There's something definitely wrong with the Loveschild person (not to mention the anonymous troll that constantly posts anti-gay comments). Mentally, sexually or what, I do not know. My college degree is in Finance, not mental health, so I'm unqualified to make a diagnosis. But common sense tells me that there is something blatantly fucked up with them.

45
"God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right."
...
"No distinction whatsoever."

Well, except those Canaanites. Let's slaughter them to make room for the Hebrews... because, y'know, coexistence is just silly.

"Galatians 3:28-29"

Ah, yes. I recited this verse at my confirmation. As a pluralist Christian at the time, it was the only verse from that despicable tome I could bring myself to utter.
46
I live in the south and I've known and worked with black people for decades. They're even more religious than white southerners. They're quick to invite you to church, offer to pray for and with you. They're more likely to bring their Bibles to work and they know them, backwards and forwards. They're also much more conservative when it comes to homosexuality. I know from personal experience that homosexuality squicks them out, big time. Wonder if they're more bigoted than white church goers? Should I ask them? When I'm at work, should I get in their faces and accuse them of being evil closet cases? Do you think talkin' about their mamas will get my point across to them? Because I want them to see the error of their ways. I want to strike a blow for liberalism because it's always morally superior!
Kim in Portland, you're always an oasis of sanity in a desert of hostility and close-mindedness.
47
46

That has almost nothing to do with what anyone was talking about. You just took that pony and led it off the trail to pulverize its rectum, didn't you?

You know that black people (like all people) can be racist, too, right? And that there is more to the world, even the religious world (shocking I know), than the southern United States?

I know a lot of racist religious people. Actually, the more religious of my family members are also the ones who are mildly racist. See, I call your anecdotal evidence and raise you a personal familial reference.

And finally, not a lot of liberals really care about morals. It's more about ethics, which are more important and practical because they are less arbitrary.
48
To the true believer racism is an abomination as it is to our Heavenly Father since the oppression of the stranger is clearly condemned Exodus 23:9.

The anti-Semites who like to cite the Canaanites to justify their illness fail to note that what happened to them had nothing to do with race because prior to their slavery in Egypt the Jews inhabited the lands of Canaan with the likes of the moabites, amorites, sodomites, etc..) So it wasn't their race that precipitated their deterioration and timely extinction but their behavior. And even so, many still lived side by side with the Israelites afterwards.

It is very obvious that our Lord Jesus Christ came to save all races and nations without distinction.

John 4:9-10:

"The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?" For Jews do not associate with Samaritans. Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water." "


Vanity/narcissism (root causes of racism) are not condoned in the Bible ad it is most often those that deny God that end up falling victim to those illnesses. Those of us who have come to know Christ know that we have been baptized in one Spirit 1 Corinthians 12:13).
49
Congregations prey on xenophobia to make people more devout. When you acquire followers by teaching people that they are the "chosen ones" (which every fucking Abrahamic religion does), that you are in the club and everyone else is out, then that message is going to disproportionately appeal to people of a certain mentality. The kind of congregation that requires "devoutness" is going to naturally appeal to racist slobs and homophobic child molesters.
50
@48: "It is very obvious that our Lord Jesus Christ came to save all races and nations without distinction."

Wow, Loveschild, you nutty CWB, really? It seems that all the non-Christians in the world haven't heard about that yet. Crawl back into your hole.

And I quote the Torah, Deut. 20:16-17:
"However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you."

And if you actually READ the book you are so fond of quoting, you'd know that it was too a racial thing. The Canaanites were condemned, according to the Torah, because they were descended from Canaan, son of Ham, who saw his drunken father Noah naked (and may have castrated him). Noah cursed Canaan and his descendants for this. It is too about ethnicity. Do not pretend that the events taking place in biblical times are representative of civilized society; it was a brutal and savage era in history, where ethics were necessarily different to the vastly different structure of society.

You say that those who deny God are those who are more likely to fall prey to narcissism or vanity. Tell me, who is it who lives in his own personal CITY and is treated like a head of state? Who claims to be the closest messenger to God? It's the guy who's the spiritual leader of Catholicism, that's who! And in Protestantism, too! Look at all the pastors with megachurches urging followers to send them folding greens! And in Islam, too. You need look no further than the arrogance of the clerical head honchos in Iran. Hell, even we Jews have some self-righteous assholes, like your friends over at JONAH. Religious people are nowhere near perfect. And before you say "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven", remember that it's God who passes judgement on you and it is He who will decide if you are to be forgiven.

Seriously, STFU.
51
Devout religious communities (sorry, devout CHRISTIAN communities), tend to be more overtly racist, yes. This is not news to most people. The big question in my mind is, though, which way does the causation, if any exists (which is a big if), flow? Does modern American Christianity promote racism in its adherents, or are people with racist tendencies more attracted to Christian communities?

Of course, it's important to bear in mind as well that this only applies to Christianity (and by extension, to some extent to the other Abrahamic religions) and only, presumably, to overt (or at least easily testable, individual rather than systemic) racism; not, by any means, all religion nor all racism.
52
Dan's post uses the term "religious people" - so why are all the responses about white Christians? There are no numbers given, so it's impossible to say whether the difference is large or small. On average, men are taller than women, but that doesn't mean every man is taller than every woman. While religion can certainly serve as a refuge for the bigoted and close minded, there are also many "open and affirming" denominations.
53
@42: Based on your reply, I'd rather not have you agree with me.
54
@53: Clever. It would be even funnier if you put a little trademark or restricted mark after every third word. You know, like they do on that site you like to link to.
55
no surprize
56
Hot damn! We got a live one here! Will LovesChild's inane posts ever stop being unintentionally hilarious?
57
...Alas, I think we can all come away from this glad that for everything horrible Loveschild might be, she still doesn't appear to be racist. At least not in this round.
58
Fuck Seattle and everyone in it! Buncha spoiled, dumb, Feable minded, RACIST (oh yeah...did i mention....RACIST!!!) FAKE , Hoity toity (Let you retarded Bastards tell it) DUMB ASS Fake Tan Having Bitches!!!!! You guys are stupid stupid stinky Dirty fucking Hippie Fags! Passive agressive little Pricks. No one in SEATTLE Can just be themselves or Be NICE to someone other than a ASIAN Person. You guys are so fucking Racist here its Pathetic! (I MYSELF am NOT a RACIST..Let me just clear that up... I might be a DICK and Straight up,thats all.)

WHITE PEOPLE.....you guys are so fucked up and Judgemental it makes me SICK! Before you sit their and Judge and Laugh and Point Fingers at all the Things that you say are bad, wether it be RELIGIOUS COLOR OR CREED.....Go take a Long Hard LOOK at yourself and SEE all the WORST Shit you Muthafukers Do! Child Rapists, Pedophile, Pervert, Sick twisted stuff. MORE THAN ANY OTHER RACE IN HISTORY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!